Going Back to Engineering? 65
JoeLinux asks: "I am a Systems Engineer for a Big Engineering Company(tm). I've been in the position for four years after getting my undergrad in Electrical Engineering. I've finally come to the conclusion that I will never see any form of technical challenge despite the continued promise of such. The problem is that almost all engineers usually make the transition the other way (E.E. to Systems). Seeing as Systems is looked at as a possible gateway to the dark side (Management), is there any going back to 'real' engineering? Have any readers successfully made the transition? How do you justify what would typically be considered a step back?"
Get a hobby (Score:4, Insightful)
Join an OSS developers list and start hacking. Buy some hardware and get to porting. Write the next great killer application.
Whatever you do, don't move backwards in your career. If you think a move back to development is a step backwards, I'd recommend you adjust your attitude a little.
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If you see what you do as inferior to what you are doing now, can you really be satisfied?
Quit your job (Score:5, Funny)
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Don't (Score:2)
Although I can see how you might yearn for those 'challenges' you haven't seen, you are in a much better place that you would if you went backwards into base EE engineering. Of course that depends on just kind of SE you are doing. If its the paper chase kind then I would say move on to another employer. That's not real SE. Sure SE needs documentation, but the real value comes from the other end, the understanding of the connectivity, cohesion and architecture of a solution.
However wherever you are, you d
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As a fellow "out of the gate" SysE (Score:2, Insightful)
Have you considered that it's the company and not the profession that bother you? Any systems eng. should be able to get a job that someone with a EE degree would without "going back".
Also, a quick question: by "r
Have you considered going back to school? (Score:5, Informative)
Do a little research first. (Score:2, Insightful)
If you're not already a member, join the local IEEE and attend the meetings. It's not what you know, it's who you know. Find as many ways to network as you can think of.
I agree with the parent. Doing a Masters Degree is almost always viewed favorably by those doing the hiring. Where I work, you won't even get an interview unless you have a Masters. That wasn't the case when I graduated but we are seeing 'credential creep
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Peter Principle (Score:2, Interesting)
The good news is that this might be changing. I'm currently at the University of Illinois and have had the wonderful opportunity (sarcastic) to have just finished a cl
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Our professor, along with a guest lecturer who runs the Career Management Offices (or something like that), both said that many jobs now are offering contracts that will "promise" to allow for engineers to stay in engineering and not get bumped to management, while also getting continued pay raises and promotions, so they aren't just getting stuck in engineering with no chance for advancement.
The problem that I've seen is that there is the opportunity to stay in engineering, but there aren't as many o
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Give up your girlish hopes and dreams.. (Score:2)
Or, ya know, join a startup and when the startup gets too big, quit and join another one. You'll have no problems finding challenges (typically impossible ones) being a startup junkie. And hey, if you're lucky, you might even accidently stay at one long enough for your shares to vest and blow it on a nice car.
Check on jobs in research institutes (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm under some pressure right now because we're going to fly april 2007, but normally, there is enough time to creatively do your job.
Check my website (for instance here [vankuik.nl]) to see some stuff we're working on.
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The moment you step off the academic treadmill you're screwed if you ever want to go back, because the academics can't recognise professional experience - even when you've got a multi-million dol
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Re:Check on jobs in research institutes (Score:4, Insightful)
"They want something good that doesn't crash all the time, but they don't want something that's perfect, because they don't want to take the extra time necessary to do it right the first time."
Real engineers also understand that perfection, while a laudable goal, is nearly impossible in the real world, and that engineering is a series of trade-offs and compromises in design, functionality, cost, and time. Not that I'm advocating creating shit, but the "good enough" solution that cost a million dollars and generates five million in cost savings or revenue is better than the "perfect" solution that cost four million dollars and generates seven million in cost savings or revenue.
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Fixed. There are factors other than money, and there are factors which cannot be accounted for in terms of money.
Just sayin'.
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I went back to get a CIS degree, and while I'm finding the classes very interesting, there's very little practical value to them in my current career. I'm hopeful that I'll use it in the future. Frankly, most of my co-workers who
Act like an engineer (Score:2)
It's easy, really. Act like an engineer. Think like an engineer. Constantly. Don't let yourself get sidetracked by manager speak or pper pressure. Especially in meetings.
Whenever you encounter a number look for the error bars, and be sure to include them when you give a number ("I'll be down in five plus or minus three minutes!"). Call out peo9ple for sloppy thinking, find ways to set bounds that rule out unworkable alternatives early, troubleshoot everything.
They'll get the hint real quickly.
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Not if he works in a company that does engineering. People who can hold onto the mindset and keep moving are incredibly valuable to a company that does real engineering--far more valuable that leaf-node managers, though you'd never guess from the pay schedules.
Much more likely, he would be "demoted" by giving him responsibility for one of the issues he was drilling down on (fine, f
Uh, no. (Score:2)
You really don't know what it's like to be an engineer, do you?
At least, the examles you give sound like an engineer trying to move into management and not the other way around.
Real engineers ask lots of questions. Managers can often get away with nodding and smiling, or issuing edicts as you suggest, but an engineer (or someone who's thinking like one) won't be satisfied by that at all.
Management is about getting things done the way you want. Engineering is about understanding why you get what you
Maybe more qualifications would help (Score:2)
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I've heard many stories of people going back for degrees to get a certain kind of job, and then not being able to find what they were looking for. I think the best way to break in to a field is to jump into something close to what you want to do, but without heavy experience requirements, and then excel and move up.
A lot of what you learn in school is a waste of time, and can be learned faster on your own and on the job, by being close to the people doing actual work.
Find work in a consultancy (Score:2, Insightful)
To be honest, getting extra qualifications doesn't mean much. You have your qualifications as an electrical engineer, that is enough - what you need is a hands-on design job. So as i said, look for work in consultancies and RnD houses, there would be plenty around. What you get while working for such
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NOBODY wants you
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Been there (Score:1)
Change Jobs (Score:2, Insightful)
If after the second job you still aren't happy, get a job at a University and pay your way through a Masters program.
a disreputable occupation (Score:4, Insightful)
Based on a comparison of incomes and profits, all forms of engineering are functionally disreputable as an occupation. By that, I mean socially and financially. After contributing the costs of your half-life education, and the non-deductable costs for its maintenance (average half-life of an engineering degree is maybe 3 to 6 years on the outside and declining), a taxi-cab driver will make better profits, and an intelligent and educated one arguably will have a better chance of raising a productive family, because he can spend more time with his family and children than the "working engineer" will ever be able to.
Setting aside the financial tom-follery of big salaries for engineers (which management will treat as some kind of joke) -- engineers are the biggest fools and therefore also one of the greatest dangers to society, based on the financial and social disrespect that they will receive from management and from society in general, in exchange for their loyalty and truthfulness (if they can file truthful reports and remain employed). Based on the comparative hours contributed to work, and on salary, benefits and bonuses received, associates who studied financial engineering or rhetorical engineering will in a short while move way ahead of you, and their up-front educational costs, which have to be contributed to 'get a job' are much lower.
Careerwise, once you've been branded with an engineering degree, you will find you have been "branded-a-fool" for life. Decoded, the phrase "... he's an engineer
Even if you have superlative interpersonal, communication and management skills, as a graduate engineer, you will find yourself "niched out of necessity" -- pigeonholed into an engineered corner because no one else in your company will be able do the required emergency engineering- mathematical- scientific tasks at hand
Learn to think of "real engineering" the way Cheney and Haliburton think of it. Create a financial apparation as a Potemkin storefront, behind which you operate an "engineering" sweatshop (average turnover or job life for an engineer is about 3-5 years -- look at the average of resumes for engineers -- it's a disaster), invest in joining a country club rather than an engineering education, buttlick for political-military contracts, and just steal the easy money! Look at Iraq. Take Billions i
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free, then find some sucker to pay you for it."
I love engineering, and I'd be happy if I was paid ditchdigger's wages. (And yes,
I have a wife and kid, and I can afford my my house at a lower salary - I live in
Pittsburgh!)
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Society doesn't really let you opt out of the Peter Principle. Which is even more of a shame.
Re:a disreputable occupation (Score:5, Insightful)
However, since switching companies the future is great again. Decent pay, reasonable hours, not a ton of managerial overhead, and the work/industry keeps me interested.
Its scary as hell to do, but like any good Engineering challenge you need to identify the problem(s) and systematically solve them. I didn't have the balls myself to initiate it, but luckily my previous companies sank and forced me to make a change.
Your bitter, dejected rant really helps me appreciate what I got now. Thanks.
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are going to *have* children, "raise a family", or care about what "they" think about our "foolishness" so this isn't an issue. Some of us are happy with what we make (which is decent, but not amazing) and do this work largely because we _enjoy_ it, and aren't using this to support anyone but ourselves. Crazy idea, eh? If you got into engineering thinking you were going to make a CEO's
Wow (Score:2)
I just wish you hadn't posted anonymously. I could use some advice
Go back to school (Score:2)
And let's just face it. A B.S. degree means you will usually end up doing 'grundge' work in engineering. The interesting stuff is done by people with MS or Dr. degrees.
Paying your dues (Score:2)
So you can either stick with your current gig and wait for your big break or go back to school to get your Masters or a PhD even... either way it will be 4 - 8 years before you do challenging work
I hope this helps somehow (Score:2)
I lucked out, I did Computer Engineering in college and I landed a job doing exactly what I wanted.
However, in my search for an engineering position, I noticed that most places want someone with an M.S. and five years of experience. Does your current employer have a tuition reimbursement plan? If so, get the M.S. while working there, and when you graduate, you'll have an M.S. and probably more
Find a smaller company (Score:2, Insightful)
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No problem going back to engineering (Score:1)
My related story:
I'm a software guy, but spent 3 years as a manager recentl
get the masters and get a new job (Score:2)
Research? (Score:2)
If they're promising you things and not delivering them, you need to take them to task for it... unless you are satisfied with the fact that they will continue to promise things and not deliver.
It's really that simple.
You justify it by saying, "This is what I want. And I'm willing to pay the associated costs with ma