Starting a Career in Science at Age 38? 112
A Science Nostalgic writes "I'm 38, have a successful career as a software developer but feel the all-too-similar enterprise apps are boring my brains out, and I'm intensely missing the world of science, which I didn't pursue in favor of programming when I got my engineering degree. Now, I'm contemplating a job in research, but fear the age and the lack of 'exercise' with math and physics would pose an understandable handicap. If I study math seriously, I can realistically shed the 'rust' in a year, maybe two, but I still fear I'll be considered too old for research. I graduated abroad so I don't have any old contacts at the local universities (there are a few in my city). I checked their job boards, and they have no positions for research, just the usual ones in software development that I could use as an entry point. Do you have any experience with such a career change? Is it feasible at all to get into science once you approach 40? I feel my brain is still alive and kicking, and years of debugging have taught me a few things about investigating causes and correlations, which are useful skills in research."
Age Irrelevent (Score:1)
Your desire and drive determine whether you can be successful in a career.
If you are carefree and cavalier, don't expect others to take you seriously.
If you are dedicated and driven, and capable of actually learning/applying knowledge you'll be an asset.
Re:Age Irrelevent (Score:5, Funny)
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I think that the old canard about scientists doing their best work under the age of 30 is mainly something that research assistants throw around in the hope that they'll get tenure. I've been around scientists all my life and I can tell you it's baloney, invented by scientists under 30.
Someone very close to me is in the process of getting her second PhD at the age of 50, in an area of mathematics that's about as "out there" as it gets. A reviewer at one of the prestigious journals wrote, about
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They all get better because their crystallized intelligence develops that way. If you do the same thing over and over again, your brain does become better at it. For example, you make a mistake, your brain makes note of it (hopefully), and you learn from it. Surgeons become better
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You're misunderstanding the canard. There are lots and lots of very active and very productive scientists over the age of 30. No one (at least no one with any credibility) is saying that scientists dry up and become ineffec
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You may cite Einstein, but I can cite Newton as someone who did revolutionary work after the age of 30. And that was in a day when 30 was the old "60".
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I do believe this is kind of misguided thinking... If I were you I'd go and have some psychometric tests done so you know what you're up against and be able to manuever around any weaknesses that may crop up. WAIS-III adult intelligence test would be a good start and ask them to test your memory.
I do not believe at any time when someone is asking for career advice that their own abilities, strengths and weaknesses, should not be checked against the REQUIREMENTS of that career choic
I concur (Score:2)
So yeah, you can be wildly successful, even if you start out late. If you're happy at what you do, then it's not really like work, and you'll be good at what you do (although a bit of a drive like a bulldog does always help).
Whatever you do, do it well - don't do anything half-assed. Just like Yoda said
"D
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I would suggest the OP take a couple of night courses and see how it goes. It might take him a while to get in the swing of things and then make a more educated decision as to his next step.
I went back to school at 45 to take premedical science courses; now I'm 48 and about to begin medical school. I find that my memory is not so great, but then it never was too good. I
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Aint that the truth! Seriously, my uncle just decided to go to law school at age 63 and get a law degree. He's finishing up in May. He doesn't think he'll ever use it but it's just the challenge that counts.
I also totally hear what you are saying. I'm 34 and I haven't been challenged in years. I've been considering going back into my original field of study, Meteorology. I also have been a musician since I was 5. I've been putting out CD's on the side hoping there will be a b
no (Score:5, Funny)
no - it's weird you would even ask.
Is it feasible at all to get into science once you approach 40?
like i said, i'm probably not the best to ask but my guess would be no - it's not. i've never found taking risks or pushing for change to be worthwhile.
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Heraclitus
Physics (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, I know when I was taking my classes in physics as an undergrad, there were several people in your situation. People who wanted to get into a new field at 30 or 40 and picked physics. I would say try to find a field that your coding skills will shine in, but where you can use them in a way that doesn't bore you to tears. You're experience should serve you well.
Of course you may be taking a pay cut starting in a new field and all....
Re:Physics (Score:4, Informative)
My suggestion would be to look at Bioinformatics. There is more money in that field now and a huge need for programmers. Also check http://www.nescent.org/ [nescent.org] for an example of a broader effort to develop software to deal with rapidly growing large sequence and gene expression datasets to answer evolutionary questions. The hire people like you fairly often.
Scientific visualization/supercomputer programming (Score:3, Informative)
The national supercomputer centers sometimes have ultimately cool projects like simulating galaxies colliding and rendering images of the result. That gets you the fun of programming big iron, some really challenging numerical problems, shock wave physics, and the chance to watch science being made from the insi
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I know when I was taking my classes in physics as an undergrad, there were several people in your situation. People who wanted to get into a new field at 30 or 40 and picked physics.
This was the same sort of "crisis" I was having at around 30. The old, "I'm just doing something I'm good at to make a living, but doing nothing to advance civilization. Even at the smallest level." There's a fear that as the years go on and I both make more money and get deeper into family life, I'll be "stuck in programming."
4 years later, I'm still a programmer, but at least I'm working at a scientific company now. Not astrophysics yet, but I'm slowly inching myself away from silly corporate database
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I assume you want to get an advanced degree if you want to do research. I have heard BS level people get looked down upon at research labs, but YMMV, so you need a PhD.
Going to grad school now could be problematic just because of the coursework requirements. In engineering, you generally would have to complete a few core classes (plus some specialty courses) to get a PhD. There are some softer engineering majors (less math and science) but you still need the basics which could hurt.
As for basic sciences,
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Sure, why not (Score:3, Interesting)
Old people tend to have the opposite kinda problem, but hey. Mid-life crisis and all that.
(Kidding, kidding)
On a serious note, I know several people who decided to take up alternative careers or go for a PhD much later in life. When I was in grad school, there was this guy who had graduated from MIT in the 80s and came back in his 40s to go to grad school.
He had his own company, so that was helping him support himself. And I've seen several people who decide later on in life that they want to specialize in something different because they felt that they weren't using their head enough at their current job.
I think at the end of the day, anyone can do it - you just have to like it enough. Goodluck!
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That would be just like (Score:1)
oh, and never underestimate how much you'll need to lower your IQ and wisdom to perform like somebody younger....
Giver! (Score:2, Interesting)
Bottom line, do it if you want a new challange and it interests you. I recently changed jobs (my last day at my current job is actually today), my new job hold alot of challange and requires skills that i both have and haven't developed ~yet~.
If humans were happy doing the same thing all the time, we would have never moved out of caves. It's human nature to want to be challanged and ins
Age may be benefit (Score:5, Insightful)
Have you considered keeping your job but getting into teaching? Your company may like it and let you do both--it's good PR and a great opportunity to get quality employees. From their perspective you're basically giving your students a 4 month interview process. Teaching can be a great challenge and may be more fulfilling than trying to advance yourself enough to do research. Good teaching will also advance your own skillsets, too.
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I totally agree. There's books smarts, and then there's knowledge. I've only been an engineer for about a year, and all that math and chemistry I learned aren't actually required for my job. All it does is let me have a theoretical understanding of why things work the way they do. But at the end of the day
Climate science needs researchers (Score:3, Funny)
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You're going to be fine; youth is over rated (Score:2, Funny)
Good luck (Score:1)
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"Old" College Student Club (Score:2)
Sign me up...
37, escaped a 15-year career in IT, back to college to finish my Microbiology B.S. (emphasis on applied environmental and industrial microbiology). If my local institution can be convinced to accept my second semester of English as a second semester of English and my semester of Calculus as a semester of Calculus (this place is evidently notorious for refusal to accept transfer credits) I should hopefully graduate this summer.
I'm working even harder now than I was in IT, but now at least I f
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Math skills may not be essential (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm an organic chemist who practices material science and fire safety engineering - and I haven't had to use calculus since I took it for grade in undergrad. Algebra is about as difficult as I encounter in my field, and to some extent (and I know this will cause howls of disbelief and screams of being a lame scientist), there are many programs that do the complex math for you. It is more important to understand the concepts and design good experiments in many of the physical sciences than to be actually good at the underlying math in the equation behind measurements in that experiment. The exception to this is if you're actually measuring the measurements or determining new ways of measuring physical phenomena...but now you're moving back into the realm of physics which does require good math skills.
I would look at what you want to do and then figure out if you've got the math chops to do it before worrying about this too much.
Are you a scientist though? (Score:2)
Huh. If you're not a scientist, don't attempt to get a job doing science. You don't have to be working in science to be a scientist, I imagine it's like not being an editor but still being a grammar nazi.
Oh and if you just show up at the lectures for an undergrad course everyone will probably think you're a visiting professor assessing the doctoral teaching staff. Could be fun.
Incidentally what is your f
Go At It Sideways (Score:3, Informative)
The way I did it was literally cold-calling people in the field I wanted to be in, eventually got some feedback on the skills I had versus the skills I needed to be desirable in that field and figured out ways to get those skills in a professional environment.
It won't happen overnight and it requires constantly thinking about where you want to be versus where you are but it will happen.
Advanced Degrees (Score:4, Insightful)
I am not saying it is impossible, my father went for his PhD when he was about your age - but his circumstances were rather different - he had already been working in an R&D role for many years, and was able to get funding from a prestigious scholarship to pay both a salary and his college tuition because he had built up a strong reputation as a scientist without the PhD degree. People who can do this are pretty rare.
Re:Advanced Degrees (Score:5, Informative)
Basically, science nowadays is very much an "advanced degree" field. From your post I'm guessing you have a B.Eng. Unfortunately even with a B.Eng. and lots of years in software development, you do not yet have the qualifications to be hired as a research scientist.
It also depends, however, on whether you want to be "involved in science" (as a technician, programmer, etc.) or whether you want to be "a research scientist" (planning experiments, interpreting results, etc.). If you want to be involved, then I'd say with your current qualifications you should certainly be able to find a neat job at some university or research institute. Your programming skills will be quite valuable, in fact. Yes, you will take a pay cut, but the environment may be much more stimulating. In this kind of post, you'll end up being connected to a wide range of different science projects, which can be really rewarding. (You may end up in a job where every day a Grad Student comes up to you and says "would it be possible to program something to do..." which could be alot of fun.)
If you want to really "be a scientist" then I'm afraid your only option is to get another degree. The upside is that while getting such a Masters of Ph.D. you'll be "doing science" which can be alot of fun. This will also let you know, immediately, whether this is something you want to do for many years to come. The downside, of course, is that you will be spending another 5 years on education, and receiving a rather small stipend while doing it. (Also, keep in mind that many of your fellow grad students will be about 20 years old.)
I wish you the best of luck. Personally I love science, and getting an advanced degree has been "worth it" for me. But given your situation, it might make more sense to try and find a job, with your current qualifications, that is closely tied to science.
Re:Advanced Degrees (Score:4, Informative)
At the same time, the scientific programming positions the parent mentions would probably be a great fit for you, if you don't mind trading some income for interesting work and a less-regimented pace.
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I'm the opposite case (Score:1, Interesting)
Academic, private and public sector science is rife with incompetent management. I could bear it no longer.
Self employment in science was not an option as startup costs (hardware) are prohibitive. (Anyone want to loan me 1.5+ mil?... fat chance...)
Self-employment in software development however, is entirely feasible and far more rewarding than a career in science.
Avoid science like the plague, unless you like working for overpaid
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Obviously he wouldn't go into science if he liked these things...he would just stay in software development.
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A tiny bit of advice I got (Score:4, Informative)
I would advise you (as I've been advised) to search for a company that has both roles, your current one and your desired one -- and explicitly state during the interview process that you're looking to change to the new career. If you find the right company, they may even pay for refresher courses.
Once you establish with your target company that you're extremely enthusiastic about them and the roles (as well as being a go-getter and a good worker) you'll be in good shape. At a bare minimum, make sure you've read the latest journals in the particular field, so you can dmeonstrate your interest.
One other note -- taking the initiative to better your situation is a Good Thing(tm), both for yourself, and to prospective employers. Many good employers will consider that a huge advantage over a candidate who is just beginning a career and can't be sure if that's where they really want to be.
Not to shoot the bubble... (Score:1)
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Yeah, and by white men of European descent.
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Honestly, I think it's a great idea! (Score:1)
I was a teacher for 10 years. Got sick of the system (NCLBA) and Administrators (loved the kids though) went back to school at age 35 and am writing computer programs now.
Yeah.. it's easier to get into programming than science probably, but the really weird factor is that if I decide on another career change, I was actually thinking about Meteorology. (I wanna chase tornados? (Hell ya I do, LOL) Actually, I'm addicted to weather and would love to get into the syst
misconception by OP? (Score:1)
That is something he shouldn't have a problem with. When I was in a Ph.D. chem program one of my best friends in my class was 35. A few years later we had a 40-pluser come in, though he had dozens of publications already, so that was probably a no brainer for his PI.
In short: Go for i
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Looking toward academic research is probably a good thing if you are interested in fundamental or exploratory research. However, if you want
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Once you are an RA, you can typically study for a PhD part time (which is a lot of effort, but if you're motivated enough it's possible) without having to pay any tuition fees.
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economy? (Score:1)
National Labs (Score:3, Informative)
--
Or, convert everyone to solar http://www.powur.com/mdsolar [powur.com]
Indirectly, age is a factor. (Score:5, Informative)
In the case of the biological sciences, if you want to run a lab, you need to put five years into your graduate career and have a ~five year successful post-doc. If the applicant is 40, that means they won't be able to even apply for a faculty position until they're 50. If the applicant is looking at industry, then five years of experience is equivalent to a PhD (in order to get top industry job you still need that successful post-doc position) and graduate school won't help them. If the applicant "simply wants to learn", they they appear to have no focus. We have picked up older applicants, though they all had very good reasons for seeking an advanced degree (for example, in two cases they wanted to teach at the community college level). If you apply to graduate school, you must address these issues in your essay. Also, when you write your essay, focus on your work/research experience (this goes for all applicants) as we don't care about 'how you've dreamed of being a scientist since you were two'.
One other piece of advice, if you want a job in research, don't look at the job boards. Find a lab that interests you, and contact the PI directly. People come and go all the time and if I don't have a position open, I typically know of someone who does. I've never hired someone through HR, but only hire people who are interested in my research as I don't have enough time to focus on someone who 'simply wants a job'. Best of luck to you.
What do you want is the question. (Score:2)
The thing is that I want to take on this engineering education for myself. It's not really a career move. If I'm fortunate enough I may have the option to turn it into a career but I still don't see myself getting the educatio
I'm doing it (Score:1)
Most of these people are high (Score:5, Insightful)
You're vague in your post, but to me "doing research in science" means either academia or working in an industrial research lab. What "science" means is harder to say, but I'll assume it's one of the traditional sciences, and not computer science, for which your prospects might be better depending on the flavor of CS you want to do.
All that said, the truth is that you're in for an uphill battle, and you will have to REALLY want it. I'm in the CSCI PhD program at a top 10 university and can tell you unreservedly not to bother with any of this unless you want your quest to be the principle thing in your life. One might debate whether this need be true for a person who's gone the traditional route, but PhDs are hard, and you need one to do what I've described above as "science research."
Let's assume you're a passionate guy, you work sixty hours a week anyway, and this is a well thought-out dream you're on the cusp of pursuing. Here's what I'd recommend:
0: Buy a bunch of Schaum's outlines in pre-calculus, calculus, differential equations, probability, and statistics. Beginning working through them. Somebody posted on here that he's a scientist and rarely uses anything above algebra. That's probably true, but irrelevent. You don't have that luxury; you have to be better than everyone else or nobody's gonna bother with you. Regaining the math chops will be easier than you imagine if you're diligent, by which I mean you work on it everyday for a couple of hours, as if you were taking a class. If you're not diligent you're fucked anyway.
1: Enroll in a decent public institution. Not necessarily in grad school; I took some classes post-BS w/ my status as "Adult special" which is for people who just want to learn stuff, not worry about a degree.
2: Take classes in your area of interest. You'll probably have to start w/ undergrad classes. Prepare to feel weird among all the 18 year old hotties.
3: MAKE CONNECTIONS. Be the guy who asks questions in class, and make them good questions. Get to know the teachers, and make them like you. This is a critical step. Make them know your name, and know you do excellent work and are a smart guy.
4: When you know some profs who are doing research things that you're interested in, ask them if you can help. Researchers love this; that's how our group gets new people. You get involved, you do whatever they tell you to, you PRODUCE. After a history of successes you can make inquiries about whether this person would support your attempt at admission.
5: Apply for admission. You will need to have taken the GRE by this point, and probably a topic test, which your studies should have prepared you for. You'll need letters of admission, which your schmoozing, ass-kicking performance in class, and volunteering should make easy.
Like I said before, all of this stuff will consume your life. If you're the sort of guy whose life is consumed already, then this might be OK. If you expect to dick around for a little bit, and then somehow get everything you want, well, it's not going to work.
If you REALLY want it it can be done, but if you don't REALLY want it then you should find some way to get the satisfaction you're looking for from less drastic changes. I went back to school at 32, so I want to support the underdog. Good luck.
Odd (Score:2)
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Be prepared for poverty (Score:1)
outside the box (Score:1)
Since I'm not 30 yet, I don't know what people mean by "rusty" skills and whether it's reasonable to consider whether you can learn what you need in 1 to 2 years. In my experience (i'm currently a computational chemistry grad student) I just learn the math
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(I assume you dont want to go through the academic hazing pricess (msc-> phd->postdoc...))
Im in applied Complex Adaptve Systems, and Agent Based Modelling in a well known Dutch university. So it is all very computationally intensive. I would have loved to have somebody around who would sysadmin our simulation machines, teach us how to write propper OO code, beat us over the head on version control, design the simulation code structure, tie together wicked visualization libra
Never too late (Score:4, Interesting)
As an engineer currently in law school, I'm something of the reverse (although I feel I'm 'adding law' rather than 'leaving science'). They're just different mindsets.
I'm 38 and going to school for 3d programming... (Score:1)
Don't bother (Score:1, Flamebait)
- Albert Einstein
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- Albert Einstein
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Let A be "hasn't made a contribution before age 30"
Let B be "will never make a contrubution"
Then the quote is claiming that A -> B.
In Einsteins case B is false, Einstein clearly made a contribution to science. But A is also false, since he was 26 when he published the work that won him a novel prize - and really deserved two if not three. And A -> B is satisified by A=false and B=false so Einstei
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It was a joke. Anyway, since you are going to nit pick me... what's a "novel prize?" A $25 gift certificate perhaps? It seems like you know this, but to inform the others reading, Einstein also did a ton of work himself after 30. Just look up a biography, wikipedia if you like. I've read about Dr. K's study also. He believes it's due to a drop in testerone levels/competitiveness after a male has found a mate. By the way, did you know that Einstein married his cousin? How
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See your sig and my user number
follow your bliss (if you can afford to) (Score:3, Informative)
after abandoning careers in market/advertising/PR and computing consulting, i returned to college and, starting from the bottom, obtained a physics BS at age 35, a master's at 37 and a Ph.D. in experimental high-energy physics at 44 -- i'm currently a post-doc and will start searching for a real job either in academia or national labs (not necessarily in the US) starting this summer -- moreover, it seems reasonably realistic to believe that i can obtain such a permanent position
however, that said, there is an age bias built into the system and you additionally must be willing to accept drastically reduced earnings expectations over the (hopefully long!) time span of the rest of your life
however, my life is infinitely richer now than it might have ever been had i stayed in the business of business
good luck!
no standard career (Score:2)
But don't expect a regular scientific career--competition is extremely tough, accomplishments are cumulative and carefully cataloged, and scientific careers span 50 years and never stabilize. You can become a doctor at 40 and catch up with your peers, but you can't do it in the sciences.
Go for it (Score:4, Informative)
There are also fileds like geology where the stereotype is that older people in the field make the most important discoveries.
You should maybe take a few classes in math, chemistry or whatever you may need to brush up. Statistics is never wasted.
Also, being in software and if you know a little math, you can probably get a job as a modeler to pay for school (assistantship).
So I say, 'go for it'
One of my friends... (Score:2)
But, how he got into doing research was to excel in his classes and get introduced (by me) to the instructor that I was marking for who happened to be doing research and needed someone with his skills. This turned into a summer job and
I'm a 41 year old grad student (Score:1)
My prior experience as a software developer have proven very useful as many academics have no practical programming experience. Moreover I bring domain knowledge that is also useful, such as familiarity with geospatial related so
I'm really glad I did (Score:2)
How about funding your own research? (Score:1)
My personal idols are people like Stephen Wolfram (book "A New Kind Of Science"), Ray Kurzweill or Jeff Hawkins (book "on intelligence"), who earned a lot of money by founding their own companies and then used the
Do it! (Score:1)
My current job is/was Systems Administration. On my own time outside of work, I started learning about aerosol science and ended up designing some instrumentation - outside my day job to detect nasty stuff that affects the Respiratory System. My employer eventually gave me what they call a "determination of rights" - so that I own all the
I've sort-of done this (Score:2)
I'd spent the time between my PhD and the new job as a commercial programmer.
Getting an academic job is likely to be very difficult. Working
You don't have to go back to school... (Score:1)
Work to be Exceptional (Score:3, Insightful)
Very common in Japan (Score:2)
As a foreigner, you could therefore also get a Ph.D. position in Japan, but you either have to have a lab sponsor you, get a scholarship, or work in a Japanese company that allows you to transfer to Japan.
For a scholarship, you need someone who ha
Study (real) engineering and Geology (Score:2)
Go into EDA! (Score:1)
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or maybe some combination of the above?
Seems that there are lots of other specialties that have spun their own distros - I'm surprised that the Electronics and prototyping communities have not.
I was considering giving it a shot, but time seems awful short these days.
What about no degree at all? (Score:2)