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Businesses Upgrades

Dell or HP for Small Business? 154

Posted by Cliff from the if-you-had-to-go-with-a-big-name dept.
fruitbane asks: "I work for a medium-sized non-profit, approximately 50 full-time users and 100 desktop PCs. We're redoing all our technology plans and budgeting; that means it's time to pick vendors/brands and stick to them, something we haven't reliably done in the past. Sites like Consumer Reports review various PCs and manufacturers for home users. Are there any comprehensive reviews or advice sources for those trying to determine the best vendor/manufacturer for small business desktops and laptops?"
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Dell or HP for Small Business? More

Dell or HP for Small Business?

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  • Find someone local you can trust (Score:5, Insightful)

    by vwpau227 ( 462957 ) * on Saturday May 19, 2007 @05:41PM (#19193539) Homepage
    How about finding a local computer guy that will help you out?

    As a small business computer consultant and a computer repair technician, I think the issue will be more about who can help you with the inevitable problems that will occur when you use the technology in your workplace. Everyone will have their preferences, I know that at our office, we recommend Acer notebook computers and desktops, and our users seem to be happy with the advice. (Incidentally, Acer is #1 in Notebook Computers in Canada, where our office is located).

    For us, the important thing is not so much the brand of computers, as each consultant will have his or her own preferences in this area. The key is the business relationship between the person who is fixing your computer and the vendor. As an Acer Authorized Dealer who also has a service relationship, we are often able to order in parts to the store to fix the client computer systems when there are issues. This is quite different from many other computer stores where they may sell the computer to you, but have to send you right back to HP or Toshiba or wherever else for service. As for Dell, the direct sales approach offered by the company means that there is rarely a reliable channel for local support for your hardware, relying instead on centralized phone support that is not always with the same person.

    My opinion is that nothing beat having a local reseller to call for service that knows your business and knows your network and knows your hardware, which can help you with your issues and fix your problems.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Nimey ( 114278 )
      Acer? Blech. All their computers (that I've serviced) came with their Windows partitions formatted FAT32.

      What the fuck? I can see *maybe* doing that back when '98 wasn't too stale, but in 2006?

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by vwpau227 ( 462957 ) *
        I think the Acer machines coming preformatted with FAT32 partitions is a minor problem that is easily fixed if NTFS is what you desire. For me, the FAT32 partitions are much easier to oeprate with if you are using non-Microsoft tools to deal with the partitions. Compared to the fact that many other vendors install any number of invasive adware and also unwanted applications on their base installs, and make it hard to create recovery CDs, I much prefer the Acer setup.

        Once again, though, I think it's more a
        • http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/01/08/0515200.shtml [slashdot.org] Acer puts exploitable ActiveX controls on their systems that serve no usable functionality. While this may not stop you from making a recovery CD, it does compromise the security of your users. As for NTFS, try imaging a Dual Layer DVD on a FAT32-formatted system and you'll encounter the main reason to not use FAT32 (the filesize limit). Even if it is fixable, I guess it is a question of what your time is worth. How much does the time spent converting co
          • DL-DVD my ass.
            You'll hit the file size limit building an ISO of a 4.01 gig distro, and that fits on a single layer dvd.

            I remember when I first hit that limit I was stumped WTF the problem was, then I started googling around and found out and had a DUH moment.
            This was on a W2k box that was purchased in early '01 and came with a fat32 system partition. did the convert to NTFS utility and all was well.

            -nB

        • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

          by itwerx ( 165526 )
          preformatted with FAT32 partitions is a minor problem that is easily fixed

          No, it's not. XP installed directly as NTFS has most of the filesystem security set up properly by defult. If you install to FAT32 then convert to NTFS every single thing on the machine is defaulted to wide open file permissions.

          And I'm sorry, but any company that decides to make their LCD monitors cheaper by silently removing half the onboard image memory and simply discarding the additional color bits that the video card sends is

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Nimey ( 114278 )

          . For me, the FAT32 partitions are much easier to oeprate with if you are using non-Microsoft tools to deal with the partitions.

          Update your tools. Get a copy of UBCD4Win, Knoppix, and the GParted LiveCD. We use those at my job and together they handle all of my NTFS needs[0]. The latter two are free-as-in-beer and -speech, the former requires you to have a Windows XP license[1] but otherwise is beer-free.

          As to the crapware: we usually buy Dell's business-oriented systems. They'll include Google Desktop

      • I've had a couple of Acer monitors, and they were the worst. They all failed quickly and in ways I didn't even know LCD panels could fail.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by McFailure ( 1085799 )
      I have to disagree with you regarding Dell. Just because they sell directly does not mean that support is lacking. If you purchase Gold support on the systems you purchase, Dell sends a technician to your site the next day. Next day service is just as good as you would get from a local shop as they'll likely have to order parts as well (and avoid any shipping costs if applicable). Granted, this won't help you if you have an incompetent sysadmin at your business that cannot troubleshoot issues themselves, bu

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by itwerx ( 165526 )
        Dell sends a technician to your site the next day. Next day service is just as good as you would get from a local shop

        Hehhehhehheh, good one! Are you employed by Dell or something? :)
      • In my experience as a custom integrator of dell kit, Dell's premium support leaves much to be desired. Some brief lowlights:

        - Dell's kit breaks more often than more vertical integrators. Dell builds systems with a much larger, active set of vendors. This helps them lower initial costs, at a tradeoff to level of confidence in the system as a whole. Especially hard drives.

        - Dell (like some other vendors, admittedly) contracts out their field support (and increasingly their internal QA and phone support). That

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by ChadAmberg ( 460099 )
      Every time I go in to do a bit of work at a non-profit or the like that has had the "local guys" do their support and computer sales, I cringe. Most of the time the boxes are pretty much ghetto crap that when I see the invoice, I'm ready to call the cops and report a robbery.
      While buying very high end parts makes a good home built PC, no company can make money selling quality components locally and compete with the Dell or HP model. So you are either charging too much to the customer or using substandard/

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by itwerx ( 165526 )
        no company can make money selling quality components locally and compete with the Dell or HP model

        That used to be true but Dell has gotten so greedy lately that you actually can build a decent quality white box for less, even allowing fo shipping, labor, time spent ordering parts etc. Now granted that's not if you're just buying from NewEgg or something, but if you're actually in the business and dealing with the distributors directly Dell really isn't a very good deal any more. Too bad really, they used
      • For a quality build, buying the business class systems from Dell (Optiplex), you can generally beat Dell's price by about 20% or so.

        Our current white box systems are dual-core, 2GB RAM, 2x250GB RAID1, integrated video, DVD-writer boxes w/ Win XP Pro and Office 2003 Pro. Cost for us is around $1150, including shipping compared to around $1300-$1500 from Dell. Assembly & base software install (restore a standard image, sysprep it, re-enter keys) is around 2-3 hours. The WinXP / Office costs are aroun
    • Recently I have been wondering whether it is worth the expensive support for business desktop PCs. Dell sells a business PC for 250 not including tax. For that amount you just keep a spare and let support take the time they need. What is your take as the local shop?

  • Reality (Score:5, Interesting)

    by packetmon ( 977047 ) on Saturday May 19, 2007 @05:48PM (#19193609) Homepage
    Firstly you need to draw up a business plan for yourself and keep in mind the lifetime expectency for technology is about three years. So ask yourself some broad/basic questions and go from there

    1) What are your goals. Are they to save money?

    2) Do you truly believe you will need "Gold/Platinum" support?

    3) Can we get by without some of the big guys? (Dell/HP/etc.)

    4) Is there room for savings/alternatives? (Dotproject vs. MS Project... Surgemail vs. Exchange + Outlook)

    For 50 users, I'll give you a summary of what I worked with at one point a while back... Computers were a combo of Gateway and Acers we purchased off an auction lot. Most were from a business that went under. Minus HD's... We spent about $100.00 each for about 70 machines. Disks? We brought them in a lot as well. Servers, we purchased our own 1 Sun Netra 1 280r off of eBay for databases. Total cost about 500.00 for the servers. We purchased a brand new 2U server from Tiger and slapped on Linux for LAMP stuff and used SugarCRM, Surgemail, and Dotproject. Surgemail itself saved us big bucks from having to be scammed into using MS Exchange, etc.. Dotproject saved us from buying Project Server which we would have needed for what we needed to do. At first project managers didn't like it, but they also had Project on their personal machines anyway... They got over it. Project + Exchange for that SoHo (3 offices 70 or so people) would have been in excess of about 40k. (remember... seats, etc.). We ran NFS, Samba, and a couple of other things which were transparent to the layfolk. Bottom line we spent under 20k setting it up. Our most expensive purchases were Netscreen's to keep things secured (VPNs). Those cost us about 3k each.

    • Re:Reality (Score:4, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 19, 2007 @05:59PM (#19193687)
      For auctions, try gsaauctions.gov first. They're government auctions, a lot of 50 pc's in unwarranteed condition will go for around 400 bucks. And if you happen to be in the market for a wwii minesweeper or a helicopeter, well they've got those too.

      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by Nimey ( 114278 )

        helicopeter


        That's a... let's see... helical penis?

        Must be surplus tort^Winterrogation equipment from Abu Ghraib.
      • Another govt one is govliquidations.com. They took over the military's DRMO functionality. I've bought a couple lots of flat panel monitors.
      • Now why the flying fuck would you want to buy an unwarranted PC with no OS for $400 when you can buy a complete new PC for that amount of money?

        The second hand market for PC was already small, but with new PCs from Dell (and other major outlets) costing around $380, seconds hands are worth jack and shit.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by caseydk ( 203763 )
      Hey, dotProject core contributor here... would you mind contacting me directly? I'd love to hear about how you're using dotProject and get feedback on your personal experience with it.... good and bad. Thanks!

  • Lenovo? (Score:3, Informative)

    by Constantine XVI ( 880691 ) <trash@eighty+slashdot.gmail@com> on Saturday May 19, 2007 @05:58PM (#19193681)
    How's Lenovo (owner of IBM's former PC division for those who don't know) hold up nowdays? I've been hearing great things about the ThinkPads (as always), but I've been wondering about their desktops, and the 3000 series (consumer-line) notebooks. Do they share the same reputation as the ThinkPads? First-hand experience welcome

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by eric76 ( 679787 )
      For the most part, I just look at refurbished off-lease IBM's.

      If I was buying equipment for a company, I'd seriously look at the lower cost Sun machines. If I was going to buy a brand new computer, instead of build it, I'd probably choose Sun.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by astrashe ( 7452 )
      I have a lenovo 3000 series laptop. I got it new for $400 on sale at a local store about a week before vista was launched. 512MB of RAM, XP Pro, 80G drive, 1.5 GHz, fairly generic but good enough 1024x768 screen. About 4.5 hours off of a single charge.

      It's not a thinkpad -- there isn't the same physical quality in it, it's pretty ugly, and you get a touchpad instead of a trackpoint. There's no titanium case, etc.

      But I've been very pleased with mine. It runs ubuntu well, if you're willing to use ndiswra

      • Macs vs PCs (Score:3, Interesting)

        by falconwolf ( 725481 )

        it's already outlasted an apple laptop a friend bought at about the same time.

        I've bought 4 new, well really 3 and a factory remanufactered one, Windows PCs and of them only one did not have any hardware troubles in the first year I had them. On the other hand I've also bought 2 used Macs and they both lasted longer than the PCs did. The first Mac I got was an SE30 in 1992. It lasted without problems until 2000, when the floppy drive died. The second's a Powermac 7300/200 I got in 2000, a few months

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Servo ( 9177 )
      I have a Lenovo ThinkPad and I'm quite happy with it. I have a tendency to be rough with my laptops and I haven't managed to break anything or crack the screen yet. If their consumer line is half as good you're still better off than if you went with some other low end brand name.

  • Go local (Score:3, Funny)

    by WedgeTalon ( 823522 ) on Saturday May 19, 2007 @05:59PM (#19193689)
    I saw someone else mentioned that they would go with a local reseller. While that's ok, I say go a step further and support a local builder who will build it from the metal up. Unless you're going for the absolute bottom-of-the-line, then the local guys usuly can get close to or even beat The Big Guys' prices. And, in my book, the local's reliability and support can't even be touched by Dell et all. Unless you LIKE speaking to call center drone #9487 from the Philippines who isn't even ALLOWED to deviate from their script and whose solution to everything is to wipe and reinstall windows. Or unless you LIKE your computers to explode.

  • Multinaional PC Companies lost the plot: Buy local (Score:5, Interesting)

    by BillGatesLoveChild ( 1046184 ) on Saturday May 19, 2007 @06:03PM (#19193719) Journal
    Once upon a time you'd buy from the biggest companies for service and reliability, and avoid small operators because of the hard time they'd give you.

    That's all changed. HP are now heavily outsourced with increased breakdowns from PC's made in China (which, lets face it, never understood 'Quality'). HP have outsourced customer support to India. If you do have a problem, you'll have to argue with an arrogant call center operator who has been told he holds all the cards and that you are at his mercy. The company doesn't give a damn about quality or customer support.

    Another poster suggested the local guy. I'd concur. The most important part of the PC is the motherboard (ASUS have a good name as a Taiwanese supplier who 'got' quality), HDD from Seagate or another reputable HDD manufacturer (fortunately most of the bad ones like IBM have been driven out of the business). Using a local guy you can get your own PCs built that'll be far better than any of the cost-cut, outsourced crap you'll get from the Multinationals. These days smaller companies have a much better grasp on quality and reputation. You'll also be supporting your community and country.
    • Your local company may be able to build a standup machine, but can they build them in the same quantities that the multinationals would? Can those machines be delivered on the timetable that the company has set forward?

      I'm not arguing against buying local, but a local business may not be able to handle the volume of a 100 pc + order, and that is a factor that the company will need to take into account.

      • Re:Multinational PC Companies lost the plot (Score:4, Insightful)

        by BillGatesLoveChild ( 1046184 ) on Saturday May 19, 2007 @07:30PM (#19194231) Journal
        I buy from two 'local guys': one is a shop of 4 people, the other of 10 people. Neither would have problems handling that sort of order. PCs are very easy to put together these days. The days of non-standard connectors and razor-sharp cases are gone. I don't build PCs very often, but last time I did got it done in under an hour. Never timed those guys, but I'm sure they can do it in much less.


        Of course you need to check them out before you buy them, have a trusted referral or ideally have been buying from them for several years. Their service is light years ahead of the Multinationals. These guys need customers. 'Chandler' who wants 'to provide you with Excellent Service' from some outsourced HP call center on the other hand doesn't care if you live or die.


        If you're talking very large orders, say a few thousand PCs, there's are medium-sized businesses who can integrate it for you on a contract. I'd trust an ASUS Motherboard far more than whatever the hell is inside a HP or Dell this week.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by masdog ( 794316 )
          Fair enough. I just wasn't sure if local shops could handle that volume.

          The good new, though, is that the machines are built with all off-the-shelf components, so if something breaks, it is easy to fix or replace.
          • That's why we build our own. Being able to get components from just about anywhere and knowing that there are zero proprietary parts inside is a real nice feeling.

            My favorite build right now for office machines is:

            Motherboard bundle from MWave (AMD Athlon X2 AM2 3600+, Asus M2NPV-VM, Kingston 2GB DDR2 667MHz, Assembly + Test), Antec Sonata II case, DVD writer, floppy, (2) 250GB HDs running in RAID1. For someone who needs a bit more CPU power, we spend another $100 and upgrade to an Athlon64 X2 5000+ (

        • I'd trust an ASUS Motherboard far more than whatever the hell is inside a HP or Dell this week.

          I'm not sure whether this is really necessary any more. Taking a look at a Dell Dimension E521 [dell.com], which goes for $309, then who cares whether it's reliable or not. For that price you can have one or two spares. Properly configured desktops with not too much bullshit locally installed can just be swapped out and in. Call support and they can pick it up whenever they feel like it.

          • That $309 configuration includes 512MB of RAM and a DVD-ROM drive (no writable optical drive at all!). Also, the graphics is "integrated". These are the systems that give Dell a bad name, because they run Windows really slowly. At least it doesn't have a Celeron.
            • I'm not sure I understand you. I was talking about a PC that's used in a business. Of course the graphics are onboard, it's a PC that will only run office, mail, browser and specific business applications.

              Also, I'd leave off a CD/DVD writer, why not use USB thumbdrives? Actually I'd probably leave off a drive altogether. Installation can be done via the network. For transfer of data outside of the network, as a business I'd prefer people to use VPN or else issue thumbdrives.

              • I was only speaking from experience. You may have never known someone who purcased a Dell Windows PC for $300. They tend to be pretty unusable without significant RAM upgrades. Just do a Google search. A friend got one a couple years ago. She only uses Microsoft Office and Outlook and web surfing. The thing was dog slow. Business users don't need a dedicated graphics card, but that is not my point. The point is that the integrated graphics reduces the available RAM on a RAM-starved system. Things m
    • ...not to mention other decent quality components. I'm not a huge fan, since I prefer to build most of my personal machines, but the HP Media Center PC I bought for my wife is damn soild really. So has every other HP PC I've owned over the many years. I found a much higher failure rate with Compaq personally, so maybe that's where you're getting your impression.
      • I used to be a big fan of the HP brand, but their quality really seems to be in a downward spiral: Google for "hp laptops suck" and meet your neighbors.

        I've had good experience with ASUS Motherboards in Desktops. Don't know what's inside HP laptops, but my last HP laptop broke shortly after I got it. It was under warranty so I thought "Hey, no problem!", only to find service consists of arguing with Indian Call Center workers who have been trained to think customers are cockroaches, and then fixed by a 'HP
        • consumer model laptops from almost any maker generally have issues. the business line of HP laptops is rock solid, much like their computers. dell's business line (the latitude) is pretty decent, not as good as HP if you ask me though. HP consumer laptops are far and away better than dell's inspiron line, which are basically just expensive door stops.

          i've worked in computer repair for too long to really suggest anything but HP if you're going with one of the big companies. if you're going desktop, you'r

      • the HP Media Center PC I bought for my wife is damn soild really. So has every other HP PC I've owned over the many years.

        On the first and only HP PC I've bought both the motherboard and the hdd died in less than a year after I bought it new. Now, I used to love their calculators, I've still got my 15C which I've had for about 20 years.

        Falcon
    • I don't understand this...
      Call center? Arrogant operator? Local guy?

      I run a small company. Not even close to 100 computers. We have our "own" key account manager at Dell. This person has always been from Scandinavia (we are based in Norway). If we have a problem we call our key account manager who then takes care of business. We usually buy silver/gold support (the one which is maximum 4 hour assitance, 24/7).
      I've never talked to an arrogant person at Dell customer service. Then one time I really needed som
      • > I don't understand this... Call center? Arrogant operator? Local guy?

        Your (good) experiences are with Dell. I was talking about HP. Dell did try and move their call centers to India a few years ago, but it was a complete disaster so to their credit they pulled out. Support needs to be "culturally sensitive."

        > I would never put my trust in a local computer guy.
        > The small computer stores usually don't last more than a few years.
        > Also, most often, their service deals are actually more expensive

  • Clarification... (Score:5, Informative)

    by fruitbane ( 454488 ) on Saturday May 19, 2007 @06:17PM (#19193815)
    Since there appears to be some trouble with the question, let me clarify. We already have a lot of machines in use. Most of them are Dell, but not all of them. Dell's once great quality and support is now, according to consumer sources (and my own experience with previous workplaces), no better than anyone else's. How does an IT department reliably evaluate the big vendors to determine who's going to go the necessary distance and be a good business partner, especially for a smaller customer?

    This doesn't rule out the smaller, local sources, but there can be a longevity issue there, as well as priority. Who says he can be there tomorrow with a replacement part in hand to get you back up and running? Yes, we're trying to save money, but staff time is more expensive than any single technology decision, so Linux and used computers are really not the way to go. We have adequate funding to get what we need, but we have to spend that funding wisely. When trying to standardize the products one uses, for ease of ordering, support, and keeping consumables in stock, making a bad decision can really set back the entire institution. And for that matter, when ordering 100 - 120 computers every 4 year cycle, paying an extra $50-$100 per computer can be worth it if you know you will get reliable, timely, and quality support for a quality product in return.

    But how do you predict?

    And to the individual who stated technology cycles every 3 years, I think that's a wonderful ideal. On a practical level, however, especially where smaller places with tighter budgets are concerned, a 4 year cycle makes more sense. Also makes it more worth investing a little extra up front.

    • Call them and ask them. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by khasim ( 1285 ) <brandioch.conner@gmail.com> on Saturday May 19, 2007 @06:41PM (#19193991)
      It's all about hardware support.

      So try to focus as much as possible on getting the SAME model for everything that is possible (without under-powering something).

      Then get a couple of extra hard drives and a spare machine. In case of disaster, just drop in the spare machine or a replacement hard drive.

      Otherwise, get on the phone and talk to the vendors about getting a 4 year, overnight replacement warranty on your hardware. Shop around. See what prices you're quoted.

      Local sites will PROBABLY not be able to provide that kind of support. That requires a warehouse where you can leave extra parts. So don't expect that. Understand that you'll be storing your own emergency replacements AND spending the weekend getting the replacement server up and running after a disaster. You'll save money up-front AND maybe get some good-will. But you're trading your time for those savings.

      If you keep churning the technology on a 3 year basis, you should be good.

      If you're looking at 4 years, you're running a bigger risk. It depends upon what you're comfortable with. Hardware can fail at any time.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by vwpau227 ( 462957 ) *
      I think what you are proposing is a great idea in theory, but it's impossible to predict the future.

      I know of a number of organizations that were bit by the Dell Inspiron 1100/1150/5100/5100/5160 systems. (As someone that works day-to-day with fixing notebook computers, we run into a lot of these systems). These systems have a great deal of problems, from motherboard issues and overheating to physical problems with the design. The issues are serious and with some models these issues lead users to launch

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by masdog ( 794316 )
        I think that depends on the manufacturer. Some manufacturers may "retire" parts after 3 years in order to get people to upgrade. But I've never had a problem getting parts from IBM/Lenovo for Thinkpads.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by BillGatesLoveChild ( 1046184 )
      > ... Dell's once great quality and support is now, according to consumer sources ... no better than anyone else's.
      > How does an IT department reliably evaluate the big vendors to determine who's going to go the necessary distance
      > and be a good business partner, especially for a smaller customer?

      Exactly! Multinationals are focused on the next balance sheet. Once they have the money and you've signed for the boxes, you're a liability. Sure in theory if you like them you might buy something in the f
      • <quote>Here I have some wonderful news for you, my friend. Desktops these days are very standard. All the plugs, connectors, memory and cards are interchangable. I have a lovely desktop sitting under my desk. If it dies tomorrow, I can call up my local guy and get a new motherboard for like $70. You can also change suppliers at any time, and we're talking about easy-to-source, mass-produced components. In the bad old days, manufacturers did make keyed connectors that only worked on their machines.<
        • > Sure, the connectors are the same, but I don't want, 3 years down the road, to have every
          > computer existing with a different patchwork of replacement parts and the driver hell that can go with that.

          If you were building a PC five years ago, that would have been true.

          The Motherboard *is* the computer. Changing a power supply, HDD or even memory won't make a scrap of difference. Add-ons won't bother you, since these days most peripherals go through USB rather than needing a card. There isn't that much
        • Except that if we try to keep our models standardized so we can load standard images, changing hardware can create problems. Sure, the connectors are the same, but I don't want, 3 years down the road, to have every computer existing with a different patchwork of replacement parts and the driver hell that can go with that.

          Integrated everything in the motherboard fixes a lot of ills. Especially the NVIDIA chipsets. A motherboard based on NVIDIA chipset NNN can generally be swapped out for any other mothe

    • "And to the individual who stated technology cycles every 3 years, I think that's a wonderful ideal. On a practical level, however, especially where smaller places with tighter budgets are concerned, a 4 year cycle makes more sense. Also makes it more worth investing a little extra up front."
      It often makes more sense to invest less up front and replace more often. You wind up with a fleet that is on average newer, and thus with fewer hardware failures.
      • Swapping out user's machines is a PITA. Making sure that you have all the user's programs installed, moving data over, etc is a hassle in a small company.

        Our planned lifespan for desktops is at *least* 5 years. (Hell, I'm still trying to retire some machines from 1998-1999.) The new machines (dual-core, 2GB, RAID1) will probably last us close to 10 years. Figure in year 5 or so, we'll boost the RAM up to 4GB, but otherwise those machines should be fine for general office work for the duration. The du

    • This doesn't rule out the smaller, local sources, but there can be a longevity issue there, as well as priority. Who says he can be there tomorrow with a replacement part in hand to get you back up and running?

      On the other hand, if you go with a local vendor who builds the machines, the spare parts will always be available because they'll be industry standard parts. Whereas if you go with HP or Dell, you might find your spare part uses a non-standard connector or is a slightly different size. (Particularl

    • "How does an IT department reliably evaluate the big vendors to determine who's going to go the necessary distance and be a good business partner, especially for a smaller customer?"

      The truth is nowadays you simply cannot take apart big names from local builders. But you know big names are more expensive (once upon a time Dell managed to ship decent equipment cheaper than a local builder could do, but that's not true anymore except for the cheapest crapware).

      "there can be a longevity issue there, as well a

      • The question is: who says the big name will have spare parts for you in a three year timeframe?

        The fact that they sell 4 and 5 year warranties means that, to a limited degree, they have to. If we buy on a 4 year cycle and pick up a 4 year warranty, or really, even a 3 year warranty, they have to be able to provide parts during the warranty period. If they can't provide parts they're on the hook for entire replacement machines. And if hard drives or other commodity parts fail, those are easy enough to replace. Only motherboards and power supplies are likely to hang us up and though both have been get

    • If you are going to narrow it down between Dell and HP, I'd recommend HP. HP has a very long history of business class machines between its own HP-UX servers and the former Compaq company on the Wintel side. Despite what others may say, it isn't just about support. HP's machines are engineered better from the start, so you don't need to call support as often. The technical knowledge level of both phone support and field support techs/engineers who come onsite are also a lot better than Dell's when you d

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Avatar8 ( 748465 )
      How do you predict? You don't. You rely upon the experience of other businesses and IT partners in similar situations. Consumer Reports probably is the most reliable third party, but they tend to look at products not the whole company. If you look at the track record of CR's review of products, I'd wager HP performs better (no facts for proof; just personal experience of a few years of reading CR.)

      What you can do is evaluate and shop around. I'd suggest you contact a few resellers/vendors that deal with de

  • Don't rule out Gateway (Score:2, Informative)

    by kc7cfk ( 240218 )
    I provide end user support to a government enterprise running about 1800 PCs. We have a mix of roughly 50/50 Dells and Gateways. I have spent WAY more time on the phone with Dell getting replacement parts, and I have to prove that I have tried everything on their scripts before they will send the parts. Gateway sends out replacements on pretty much a "no questions asked" basis, but I have only had to do that a couple times in two years. I have no idea how our management's purchasing decisions are made,

    • Gateway sends out replacements on pretty much a "no questions asked" basis

      Maybe it's different with organizations, business, or other institutions but I've bought 2 laptops from Gateway and everytime I've had to call tech support, which I had to do a lot, the first question I'd be asked after giving the rep the serial number of the PC was "has anything been installed?" If the answer was yes then I'd be told I had to reinstall Windows but nothing else and see if I still had a problem. With some things t

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by snuf23 ( 182335 )
      All I have to do with Dell is run their diagnostics before calling. Then place the call, tell them what the diagnostics says is borked. They either send a part or send someone by to install.
  • Dell will make your machine THE WAY YOU WANT IT exactly. HP has a selection of items and configurations. I found this out the hard way... that is the sales rep didn't explain it to me until AFTER I received a laptop with the wrong configuration. I was really surprised because I was accustomed to Dell's custom configurations.

    I think Lenovo is worth investigating. They feel more durable than either HP or Dell too.
  • Make sure you spend the extra ~$100 for gold support (= US based and empowered to actually get shit done) from Dell.
    • Dell's Gold support sucks compared to most other vendors. I don't have recent experience with their desktop support but have had to deal a lot with their servers over the last 2 years. I don't do day to day sysadmin stuff anymore as I focus on DR/backups but I see all of the mess my customer goes through to get Dell to fix problems. If its not an obvious issue like HDD failure then it may takes days or weeks to fix issues. Their first response to anything other than blatant hardware failure is to update

  • Dell. (Score:4, Informative)

    by gonk ( 20202 ) on Saturday May 19, 2007 @09:21PM (#19194853) Homepage
    Personally and professionally, I buy from Dell.

    Their PowerEdge servers are solid. I've had hundreds, maybe over a thousand, in service over the years and haven't experienced too many problems -- certainly nothing out of the ordinary.

    Their Latitude laptops are pretty nice. Maybe not the nicest laptop in the world, all of mine have lasted at least three or four years, not including time spent in friend's and family's hands after I give them away. In service in the corporate environment, again, I've had very few issues.

    In terms of service, I've never been disappointed. With Gold support, you get excellent service, IMHO. It does cost a lot, so be sure you need it first. But even with the lowest form of support, I've had decent experiences. Does it take longer to get ahold of someone? Of course. Do I have to wait longer for parts? Yup. But that's what I paid for, and it has never been excessive.

    Anyhow, that's my short answer.

    robert

  • Dell. Period. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by strredwolf ( 532 ) on Saturday May 19, 2007 @09:42PM (#19194955) Homepage Journal
    Seriously. The systems are exactly custom-ordered, they have better online documentation (including tear-down instructions for field replacement) and there hasn't been any hardware problems as of late.

    HP, however, has a ton of problems it needs to resolve. It's site is counter-intuitive, both on buying a system and getting support for whatever you have. It's offerings are very fixed, even after it borged Compaq. Some offerings have variations that are hard to find, and some even harder to find support to. I hear the customer service isn't worth the phone call.

    I'm not sure about Lenovo, since they're owned by the Chinese government. Gateway I haven't heard from, but depending on how hard you're on laptops, maybe Panasonic?
    1. They are both sucking right now. Why would you choose either?
    2. You'll get the best prices if you play them off against each other. Why would you promise yourself to just one (letting them grab you by the nuts)?

  • From a support view (Score:3, Informative)

    by Itninja ( 937614 ) on Sunday May 20, 2007 @01:43AM (#19196103) Homepage
    Strictly from a support view, I would recommend Dell. Based primarily on my current experience with HP and past experience with Dell. I currently also work for a non-profit, albeit a much larger one. We administrator about 275 servers for school data centers across all of Washington State. I have to call HP support several times a week, and every time I dread it. I get the run around from the 'techs', I am regularly told that our servers are 'not under any warrenty' (I tell them the 300K a month we spend assures me that they are - and usually have to talk to a manger), and of course the language barrier is awful (I believe they are in Costa Rica). Oh and did I mention the voice activated call routing system? That sucks too. It's so NOT fun to have to repeat 'Proliant running Microsoft' out loud into the phone 10 times just to get a human on the phone. Keep in mind we have the *highest* support level offered by HP.

    At my last job, I ran a much, much smaller datacenter with only about 6 Dell servers (I use the term data center loosely). There we had what Dell called 'Gold level support'. The fact that I usually spoke with native English speakers was awesome all by itself. But I could usually get a tech on site much faster, and with much less hassle. And we got a direct line to Tier II support.
  • Check Ed Foster's Gripelog || The Reader Advocate [gripe2ed.com] to discover which companies are being abusive.

    However, on 2007-05-19 at 22:58 PM PDT his web site seems not to be functioning.
  • Well I'd suggest your problem is not choosing between two different brands of conventional computers.

    The answer to "what kind of new computer?" is "It must be low energy consumption now."

    The first point I would suggest is: Now is the time to begin aggressively moving to low energy consumption computing for general purpose office machines.

    The conventional mass market machinery that I see is not dramatically better than my 700 mhz 19
  • Don't pick a vendor, pick particular models and standardize on them for the life of that model. There are several benefits to this:

    1. You can create a Norton Ghost install image so that deploying a new machine is easy.
    2. Joe doesn't get upset because Suzy has a better PC.
    3. When its time to buy the next model (after a couple years you'll typically have 2 or 3 in production at once) you can compete the major vendors for the best price and hardware.
  • If you go Dell make sure you go lattitude for laptops and optiplex for PC's, and get the full 3 year warrenty (accidental on laptops). the 3 year warrenty is worth it's price, esp on displays - a laptop display will cost £600 to replace if it gets cracked.

    The onsite warranty for the 'home' range isn't as good and harder to get someone out to fix.

    For me the extended warrenty is the big selling point over HP.

  • Stear clear of big international brands (Score:3, Insightful)

    by jonadab ( 583620 ) on Sunday May 20, 2007 @08:05AM (#19197321) Homepage Journal
    HP? Dell? Avoid, avoid, avoid.

    Find a small or medium sized vendor, preferably headquartered in your area, that carries a good small-name brand, store brand, or whitebox lineup. Ideally you want systems composed entirely of bog-standard interchangeable off-the-shelf hardware components.

    In Ohio, for example, there's an outfit called Microcenter, with locations in Columbus and Cleveland. They carry big-name computers like HP and so forth, but they also carry a whitebox brand called PowerSpec. After I discovered this brand we quit buying Dell and HP and so forth where I work.

    I got tired of having a computer that's six months out of warrantee have a part go bad (a CD-ROM drive, say) and not being able to replace the part because it was non-standard in some way (e.g., designed to fit behind a non-standard case front). All the big international brands pull those sorts of schenanighans, for no good reason, and it leaves you with computers you can't service the minute they're out of warrantee and therefore must replace entirely when even a cheap component dies. Oops, I can't replace the power supply because it has a special connector for that weird fan in the front of the case. Oops, there's a case fan making a racket and I can't replace it because it has a non-standard mounting form factor. These are the sort of unpleasant surprises you can expect with the big brands. Usually you discover it about two months after the warrantee expires.

    Do yourself a favor. Avoid the big international brands that like to have a new non-standard "feature" for each model line. Instead find a brand that uses 100% standard off-the-shelf components.

  • Dell (Score:2)

    by Mendy ( 468439 )
    I certainly haven't had any problems with the service offered by Dell - but then again we do have the Gold support etc. If you wanted to do some more research yourself you could try buying a PC from several places and seeing yourself what the level of service they provided was - or perhaps asking if they could put you in touch with another customer to get a reference.

    I disagree with the comments from people suggesting going with a local "white box" vendor. With Dell and others you can purchase machines for
  • That's what I told the admin of our finance network when she started getting in Dell desktops.

    Three years later she was saying "You were right". Every model was a unique design, the motherboards, power supply connectors, cases, and everything was designed to force you to replace the computer when you needed to upgrade, to force you to go to Dell for support, and when the warranty runs out you're out of luck.

    HP? The HP desktops I've seen have been bog standard ATX cases and motherboards, maintainable and upgradable without HP's help. Much better value.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by QuasiEvil ( 74356 )
      My new DC7700 at work isn't a standard ATX power supply, and has a crippled BIOS that locks out the VT-x virtualization instructions. Seriously, I thought the same about Dell-vs-HP as you did before this experience. Now I realize that HP is following them down the road to "value add" hell.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by argent ( 18001 )
        I guess the bottom line is, know thy enemy, and the enemy of your enemy isn't your friend.

        Whatever you buy, make sure it's NOT part of a lock-in scheme.
  • What's in it for the support guy? Dell and HP and anyone else (Acer, Lenovo, Etc) all do about the same in terms of support. I use both Dell (laptops) and HP (Desktops, printers) and have the same problems and good things to report with both of them.

    Not really the issue.

    1) How easy will it be for you to reimage one of these puppies? Will Dell/HP supply you with all of the drivers when you build your image or make you hunt?

    2) When your lease is up, how bad will it be if you don't return, say, the original b

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