Windows Security and On-line Training Courses? 189
eggegick writes "My wife has taken a number of college courses over the last three years and many of the classes used on-line materials rather than books. The problem was these required IE along with Java, Active X and/or various plug-ins (the names of which escapes me), and occasionally I'd have to tweak our firewall to allow these apps to run. I don't think any of these training apps would work with Firefox. All of this made me cringe from a security point of view.
Myself, I use Firefox, No-Script, our external firewall and common sense when using the web. I have a very old Windows 2000 machine that I keep up to date. To my knowledge, I've never had a virus or malware problem.
Her computer is a relatively new XP machine, and at this point she feels her computer has something wrong. But now she prefers to use my old machine instead of hers since it seems to be more responsive. We plan to run the recovery disk on hers.
Assuming the college course work applications were part of the cause, what recommendations do any of you have for running this kind of software? Is there a VMware solution that would work — that is, have a Windows image that is used temporarily for the course work and then discarded at the end of the semester (and how do you create such an image, and what does it cost?)."
vmware is free (Score:5, Informative)
vmware is free, so is virtualbox and xen.
you would create the image yourself.
install a default XP machine and run IE on it.
Re:vmware is free (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. make known good snapshots and you're covered.
It's the best way to run windows nowdays.
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after that, download VMWare Server, pop in an install disk, and then you can Remote Desktop to the hosted VMs.
Re:vmware is free (Score:4, Insightful)
Vmware Player is free. Vmware Workstation is not. But I doubt that for online courses that the extra funtionality in the workstation edition are needed.
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VMware Server is free. [vmware.com]
It's more than up to the task you are trying to accomplish.
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Nice troll there. I have several users that employ Vmware Server quite efficiently.
And the Windows "infected" thing is irrelevant to the OP's question, since he knows it is a risk, but a huge amount of educational online-class software only works really, truly properly with IE. Deal with it.
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VMWARE server SUX, the new web interface is horrible, I thought VMWARE was the best (may still be for enterprise) but I use VirtualBox in Ubuntu and love it. Think it is better for on the desktop use.
No matter how careful and no scripts you can still get infected quite easily. How long does it take an uprotected windows PC to get infected once it's plugged in?
Using VMWare Server for hosting desktops isn't that difficult. The web interface isn't as pretty as the Workstation App, but you're getting it for free - and it runs VMWare virtual machines out of the box.
As far as infected machines go - any moron can spin up an XP workstation unpatched and un-natted - but it's not that difficult to run XP behind a nat connection until you get fully patched.
The web interface gives you the functionality you need to get a SERVER working. If you want all the bells and whistles
Windows infection speed is with no firewall, troll (Score:2)
You're not going to running IE on a non-updated system - you're going to have your Linux machine behind a firewall, and you're going to be running NAT or something more powerful between the Windows VM and the Linux machine, and you're going to update the Windows system and reboot it. Then you're going to install any applications and update them and reboot. And you're going to snapshot that OS partition, and have a separate OS partition for the data, and *then* you're going to start using IE and its little
Re:vmware is free (Score:5, Informative)
VMWare is free, however, you would have to check your licensing to ensure you can install a second copy of windows on it, without having to buy another license. (unless, of course, you put linux on the machine, and run windows inside vmware)
I think virtual machines are going to be the death of Microsoft. Its just too damn hard to keep track of in a VMAppliance world...
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The OEM Licence is non transferable and bound to the physical hardware.
AKA Intel Chipset/Broadcom Network and Intel Processor for example.
running windows inside vmware is running on Different VM Emulated hardware thus breaches the OEM licencing agreement.
If you bought retail and uninstalled it from your PC and reinstalled into a Linux Host VM then you are ok
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And how is the "emulated hardware" different from the "physical hardware"?
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Physical hardware's running Linux, VM is Windows (Score:2)
Running two copies at once on the hardware might be breaching your license, but you're not doing that here - you're running Linux on the base hardware, and if the VM counts as license-affecting hardware you're only running Windows on it, and if it doesn't count, you're only running one copy of Windows on the physical hardware, even if you're not running Windows the way Mr. Bill expects.
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If you have an underpowered computer, just dual-boot instead.
If you don't want to dual-boot on the same hard disk, use another hard disk in a swap tray.
These options have been common for more than a decade...
vm is for protection, not just dual use (Score:2)
The big reason to use VMware or its competitors here is to let Windows run in a safe protected environment, not exposed to the cold cruel world. Also, you can boot the Windows OS from a clean copy each time, so even if it gets infected you're not very exposed.
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The VMWare Player is free, as is VMWare Converter.
1)Create new image on box (smallish disk). Update same
2)Create an image of that box's C: Drive, place on another drive
3)Make copy of that image file/folder
3)Run that image, throw away when done.
VMWare server is also free, and not hard to get running on Linux.. on WinServer 2k3 it's a doddle.
Clue Stick (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, except (Score:3, Informative)
The courseware he's talking about is almost certainly Blackboard and up until very recently that was basically the only available product for this kind of stuff. Yep, it is a titanic piece of KAKA, but no matter how clueful a school is, they pretty much don't have a choice. WebCT was somewhat better, but Blackboard bought that a good while back and they don't put new customers on it.
In the last year or two there are some OSS apps that are at the point where they would be a better choice, but switching is al
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Strange. My GF, who is at uni, uses Blackboard regularly. She's used Firefox + unmodified Zonealarm for the entirety of her 4 year course, and never encountered a problem.
Etudes is a good Open source alternative (Score:3, Informative)
http://etudes.org/ [etudes.org]
They use it at Foothill College Los Altos CA where where I am a somewhat permanent student
I have taken dozens of online classes and it seems to have worked well for a variety of classes and teaching styles
-I'm just sayin'
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I used Firefox on Blackboard too. Hell, my mom was having issues with her Blackboard courses in IE7, cause for IE they only supported v6, so I told her to install Firefox, and it worked great!
Maybe the school has a really old version of Blackboard?
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My university standardized on Firefox and uses Blackboard with no problems. The only time it's ever complained is when I sign on with a nightly it doesn't recognize the user-agent from, but it still works perfectly fine.
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Strange - I've never had a browser related problem with WebCT (pre-blackboard days), Blackboard, WebCT Vista, or Angel from my Linux desktops. Always used Netscape 4.x, Mozilla, or Firefox 2+
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I'm currently taking the routing intro class at a community college night school that uses the Cisco Academy software, and it's running fine under Firefox 3.0 under Vista. I haven't tried it under Ubuntu (only use my laptop for class), but there's a guy who sits behind me who has the academy site up on his Fedora desktop every class.
As a side note, I just noticed that the Slashdot spell checker doesn't recognize either Ubuntu or Cisco. Go figure.
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A lot of online only colleges use a custom made POS,
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From the Wikipedia disambiguation page for "NU":
In universities:
* Niagara University, a Roman Catholic university in Niagara County, New York
* Northeastern University, an American research university in Boston, Massachusetts
* Northwest University, a private university in Kirkland, Washington
* Northwestern University, an American research institution in Evanston, Illinois
* Norwich University, a private American military and traditional university in Northfield, Vermont
* University of Nebraska-Lincoln
* Naresuan University, a public university in Phitsanulok, Thailand
* Nile University, a private research university in Egypt
* National University (Philippines), a private, non-sectarian university in Manila, Philippines
Four of those came into mind immediately when you said "NU". Which one?
Virtualization is your friend (Score:5, Informative)
A long time ago, I created a virtual hard disk image of a Windows XP installation, got it the way I like it, and then backed it up. (storing a few GB long-term is trivial these days) When the current disk image I'm using gets overly cluttered after a few weeks or months, I just get rid of it and load a fresh copy from my backup and start over.
You could probably benefit from the same system.
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Re:Virtualization is your friend, Idiot (Score:2)
The point is not user stupidity, or scripts, __BUT__ what those scripts can actually do.
In any case your astroturfing here is pointless, all CIOs and Security Admins understand you crap all too well and are not interested in having their nets borked for 2-3 days every 3 months, and those that did not learn are no longer in post. Why M$ pay you to lurk and lie I do understand.
In well implemented Java,
Why would it make you cringe? (Score:5, Informative)
Why would this make you cringe from a security standpoint? Security is only a problem with nefarious things are intended. The act of allowing these specific ActiveX controls to run within the context of the training courses has no bearing on whether or not you are permitting other ActiveX controls to run. If the prompts annoy you, rather than simply completely turning off ActiveX security features, you should add this site to your list of Trusted Sites.
There's nothing inherently wrong with enabling IE, using IE, or using ActiveX. And within the context of this single site there's not likely to be a problem. After all, if they were using their software for malicious deeds you surely have legal rights on your side.
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Re:Why would it make you cringe? (Score:5, Insightful)
And yes, you can enable scripting per site. Or rather, on IE you have "zones". And you can set different security levels for each zone. You have your "Internet" Zone, "Trusted Sites", and even "Restricted Sites".
You can add sites and change security settings for each one of these. Trusted sites typically have less security requirements because you trust them. And that would be the proper solution to this question.
IE Security Zones (Score:2)
You can even make the "My Computer" zone configurable - if you decide htm files that you load locally shouldn't be so trusted and running stuff like javascript (it kind of breaks some explorer stuff unless you are in classic mode).
See: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555599 [microsoft.com]
Or even add zones.
See:
http://www.geocities.com/uzipaz/eng/fifthzone.html [geocities.com]
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/182569 [microsoft.com]
However doing that might break NET 1.1
See: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/837214 [microsoft.com]
IE's zone security is actually better than what
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Assuming the firewall is at the network edge, you can't just turn it off for one application. And when you enable scripting, you can not enable scripting by site. (NoScript isn't on IE...) You use a condom every time you have sex. You don't take it off for the girls that look clean.
Wow, you could not be more wrong. Yes, wear a condom every time, but if the girl is so skanky you feel the need to double bag it, how about you just don't have sex with that girl?
Just installing IE does not mean you have to
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That's not correct at all. While in this case it might be possible to open up only the features needed for this software to run, it's highly likely it will only work if you open up the gates for other malware to enter as well. Adding the site to the trusted zone may only resolve some of the problems (did you read the firewall bit?). Software that isn't designed with security in mind (read: most software) is often so sloppy that finding all of
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You are correct in the sense that software is sloppy, but what this guy is seemingly trying to prevent (and what he hinted to with his wife's computer performance problems) has to do with the general problems that people find with IE and ActiveX controls period.
That is, it's not the controls that are flawed, but he believes that by even having IE open will somehow open a doorway to insecurity to his system.
And what I was trying to
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What do you call a prostitute who has sanctified sex on the side? Just wondering because of this ...
What difference is there if the next bloke she sleeps with is her husband?
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Security is only a problem with nefarious things are intended.
Well, actually, security is about being able to trust the system to do what you want it to do. It doesn't really matter whether you lost the customer database because a hacker broke in and wiped out the server or two drives failed and the array went up in smoke from a security standpoint. This is why as security professionals we try to adhere to the principle of granting the minimal amount of access necessary to accomplish a given task; And by default not allowing access. It limits the number of possible fa
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Yeah, he also could have closed those ports on the firewall when his wife wasn't actually working on the course material, and had her use Firefox with no-script etc. for everything *but* the course work.
He would be better off picking up a cheap laptop for his wife to use for these courses than trying to run VMs and whatnot. Even one of those ASUS eepcs might do, or a used notebook if she needs a better display.
What's he gonna do when the setup borks while his wife is in the middle of something important? Yo
You clearly don't work as a security expert. (Score:2)
"Security is only a problem with nefarious things are intended. "
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
When you open a vector attack for a benevolent application, you are opening a new vector attack that can be abused.
In simple terms, opening access to a "good" application means that you have to do all kinds of reconfiguration to ensure your environment remains clean.
I share the pain of the original poster on this regard ...
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I mean, that's the level of comments you guys are taking this thread to.
The reality of the situation is the guy's post wasn't about whether or not any software was insecure, the implied statement was this: "By allowing my wife to run IE and
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i've been reading slashdot everyday for 10 years.. (Score:2, Insightful)
...and this is the worst askslashdot ever.
that is all.
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Her computer is a relatively new XP machine, and this point she feels here computer has something wrong. But now she prefers to use my old machine instead of hers since it seems to be more responsive. We plan to run the recovery disk on hers. Assuming the college course work applications were part of the cause, what recommendations do any of you have when having to run this kind of software?
What the hell kind of "recommendations" is he looking for? If your school needs ActiveX plugins (I know, I know, the schools needs to get a clue, etc.), you use IE and run them. I guess we could recommend that he doesn't, but that kind of defeats the purpose. ActiveX isn't an automagic virus.
She feels her computer has something wrong? So what? What the hell does that have to do with his question? What the hell does "plannin
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Yeah. First there was this talk of slashdot-ers having girlfriends, and now we have to help out somebody's wife. These guys have got to be kidding.
Only visit stories that are interesting to you. (Score:2)
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Windows SteadyState (Score:5, Interesting)
It's available for XP and Vista (32 bit) free from Microsoft: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/sharedaccess/default.mspx [microsoft.com]
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Can't you just use a linux kernel on another partition and use dd to copy the good partition somewhere, then dd it back when needed? I used to do this, but haven't tried (haven't needed) it recently.
Of course, you don't even really need a linux partition, just a live cd and disk space to put the image on.
Win4VDI (Score:2)
Some of the important features and capabilities of Win4VDI for Linux include:
* Re-hosting of Windows XP/2000 desktop sessions on Linux servers
* Centralized management and provisioning of users
* "Renewable" windows - just restart any corrupted session and the original master copy of Windows combines with your individual "Documents and Settings"
* Automatic local printing from the server to the l
Internet College web sites and virtual machines (Score:5, Informative)
require you to turn off your firewall and pop-up blocker. Why they cannot write web software to work without needing pop-ups and can work with firewalls is beyond me.
Virtual PC 2007 [microsoft.com] is free. Use Pricewatch's operating system price search [pricewatch.com] to find a version of Windows to run under it. Windows XP [pricewatch.com] can be bought in OEM version for under $100.
Run all college web sites in a virtual machine.
Use Avast Home [avast.com] for Antivirus as it is free for home and non-profit use.
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Use student discounts if you can buy a copy of XP for cheaper than pricewatch can offer an OEM copy.
VMWare will work as well, but the VMWare Player while free cannot create install virtual hard drives. You'd have to create it with the Free Server version or buy the Workstation version.
Student discount? (Score:2)
I left my basement last century, you insensitive youngling cod.
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"I left my basement last century, you insensitive youngling cod."
So did I, you insensitive basement leaving last century oldling clod! But I still can join up as a student to any college and get a student ID to apply for a discount. I was in my 30s when I last got my student discount from Microsoft, as it is never too late to go back to college. Some vendors don't ask for age, as it is age discrimination [eeoc.gov] and can even cut you last century basement leaving oldlings a student discount.
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Technically, MS-Windows XP Home is "not allowed" to be run in a virtual session. Read the license. You have to use the more expensive MS-Windows XP Pro or ultimate, and even then, there are draconian restrictions.
Me? I just use Linux. Free. And no need to have snapshots in a VM to protect my system from typical MS-Windows snafu's. But if you want, you can run MS-Win under Virtualbox under Linux; also free, but in addition, it is open source (while just as fast and capable).
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Thank you Captain Obvious, did you happen to notice that Pricewatch has Windows XP Pro listed for $88? If you didn't, then you obviously did not click the link.
I was going to write use Windows XP Pro, but felt that the person who asked already knew that XP Home is not allowed under a virtual machine. Besides even if he did run XP Home under a virtual machine who is going to know?
Yes for good sakes he could just run Linux, but how about IE? He needs to run XP Pro under XEN or some other open source virtual m
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1) I wouldn't say it was "obvious" that you can't run XP Home under VM. I bet if you asked people (only that even know what a VM is) maybe 80+% had no clue it wasn't within the license. *I* didn't know you couldn't legally do that until a few years ago (granted, I avoid using MS-Windows as much as humanly possible, but there was a case I had to set up some XP-under-Linux machines and had to determine which MS-Windows licenses to buy; that is how I learned).
2) You are right that I didn't click on the link,
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Oh yes, and your anonymous coward comments were so constructive and on-topic too.
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The reason why javascript and popups are needed is the two major protocols used by all major learning management systems, AICC and SCORM require them.
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How those popups are invoked is key.
Most browsers these days disallow popups without user intervention, e.g. the old trick of attached a popup script to a page's onLoad or onUnload body attribute. Popups by default are still allowed using "onclick" events.
What some of the LMSes we trialed a few years back did was when you selected a course to launch, it would reload the page and then try opening the popup window. They were auto-populating a form with the selected course info and POST-ing it, to get a URL (
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They could go and write their own application interfaces but that becomes a burden when you can load everything over the internet right from the browser.
LUA & VMs (Score:2)
Best thing you can do on XP is logon as a normal user (not admin, nor power user), and learn how to deal with the occasional problems caused by having insufficient privs. Aaron Margosis' (sp?) blog has some great tips.
VMWare Player is free, but doesn't make it easy to create VMs. Sunbarrow.com has lots of tips.
Virtual machines are a great way to run stuff where performance isn't critical. It's a useful sandbox that you can easily restore to a known state just by copy some files from your backups.
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Sunbarrow.com? I meant: Sanbarrow.com
Windows Security. (Score:2, Interesting)
Can't you just fix the problem? (Score:4, Interesting)
The free solution, on the other hand, is to just clean up the problems on the XP machine. If the other machines on the network continue to run trouble-free, just fix the one with trouble. You probably don't even need to recover or reinstall. Uninstall the ActiveX components, close the firewall back up, run anti-virus and anti-spyware apps (at least 3 different free ones) to remove anything that might have shown up, and if there are less than a handful of problems detected, you don't really need to reinstall. Run msconfig to check for extra crap at startup, and use HijackThis to check for any remaining browser toolbars, add-ons or other crap you don't want. Then make Firefox the default browser. Incidentally, there is a Firefox add-on available called IETabs which lets you run an IE-specific webpage from Firefox without starting IE and all its add-ons (it does use the base IE rendering engine tho).
If the machine hasn't had a fresh XP install in over a year, then it's time to reinstall anyway, and the sluggishness might have little to do with the extra ActiveX crap your wife had to use.
A cleanup might take you 2 hours. A reinstall could take longer, depending on how organized you and your wife have been about backing up data and how many programs you'll need to reinstall. VMWare works, but isn't free. These are the considerations to balance. Good Luck!
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Virtualbox is free, in both regards.
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Only the open source edition i entirely Free. The closed source edition has some extra features (like USB support), but it's free for personal use.
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Who would have thought.
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Why?
My work laptop is five years old, never reinstalled XP. It's fine. Until I replaced it with a MacBook Pro, my home computer hadn't been reinstalled for years either. Why would I want to do so?
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I can check off most of those. Obviously not the malware. I still don't get it.
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If you need to install XP fresh each year...
YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.
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VMWare player IS free.
VMWare server IS free.
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He could reinstall XP, but his wife would just screw it back up again.
Sandbox software (Score:4, Insightful)
Just get some sandboxing software (i.e. "sandboxie", which I've only heard good stuff about) and run internet explorer from within such a sandboxed environment.
Just like a VM it will keep IE (or anything spawned by IE) from messing with the rest of the system, but with the advantage that it is much more lightweight than a typical VM.
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Virtualbox + Linux (Score:2)
Load up Linux and Virtualbox. Then you can run any number of MS-Windows snapshots under it as needed. If you get infected, just revert to a previous snapshot and your problem is solved.... instantly.
Meanwhile, you have the opportunity to learn and experiment with a newer, more enjoyable, free, and open OS (and VM) instead of just being "stuck" with MS-Windows 2000. And it will be an OS that will likely not be compromised by virii, spyware, and malware.
Had a similar case with wife taking classes... (Score:3, Interesting)
Wife in question has administered lab machines before. So I left the Windows admin to her. B-)
For net access I put a third ethernet card in the Linux-based firewall machine and added rules:
- This new "red" net, like the "blue" net where the linux boxen live, was essentially restricted to talking to the firewall machine and outgoing TCP connections (plus very few specific other things.)
- "Red" and "blue" were treated, with respect to each other, as just as foreign as the wild-and-woolly Internet.
I know this doesn't answer questions about "How do you protect the Windows machine?". But there is plenty of stuff elsewhere about that. Plugging Microsoft's security holes is a multi-billion dollar industry. This was "How do you protect the rest of the machines in the house?". Giving Windows boxen their own LAN segment and walling it off from reduces the problem to the equivalent of a Windows box (or LAN of them) alone behind a NAT/Firewall machine. That's an already (sorta) solved problem.
Jargon: Love it or leave it. (Score:2)
If i had mod points I'd mod you down for using the pseudo-word 'boxen'.
If you want to read posts by hackers you have to put up with hacker jargon.
If you're revolted by it, what are you doing on Slashdot?
(This IS, by the way, part of the normal evolution of a language.)
Linux plus crossover office (Score:2)
Make your system a dual boot and install Ubuntu and Crossover Office, at which point you can click a button and install IE on it.
Ironically, I had to install IE to take an online Linux course.
But IE works great and it being that it isn't actually running on Windows, I've never had a moments trouble.
Also, in some cases you can stick with Firefox. There is an add-on to let you report back to the site that it is IE. I've found that a lot of sites that say they are IE only will actually work with Firefox...but
why make this overcomplex? (Score:2)
Simply start by making a non-administrator account on XP and surf from that account. It will reduce the likelihood of getting a system-wide virus or worm to near zero. You still could end up with a bunch of crudware on that account if she clicks "yes" to questions about installing plug-ins and such. But you should be able to fix all that by just deleting that user and making a new non-administrator one.
Honey, I love you (Score:2)
security and online training courses (Score:2)
There are things far worse than worrying about possible security threats from "courseware".
1. getting it to work in the first place can be a real big problem. A few years ago, a friend was taking online courses using WebCT. He was unable to get any of it to work. Instead, he commuted to campus and used the computers there.
2. IMO a lot of courseware is crapware. Somehow in the education market it is acceptable to subject students to software that would be higher quality if it was malware! Well, what did you
What What? (Score:2, Insightful)
First off. Windows 2000? That you keep up to date? I haven't seen Windows 2000 updates since.... 2005. Security? WTF?
For the love of dog, use something like VirtualBox or VMWare. Now!
Second, as a techie who has returned to college I deal with this a lot. Firefox has been hit or miss. Sometimes, I have HAD TO use IE. It's a bitch, cause I use Ubuntu. Nothing sucks more then having to keep a dual boot system (I used previously) or a VM around just for that one class that requires that you submit
Hard drive cloning - easy, safe, secure (Score:2, Interesting)
This thread has generated a lot of great responses, and you can pick and choose from a variety of good solutions. Here is another, the one that I have settled on as my preferred safety-backup-reinstall method: hard drive clones.
I use XP-SP2. My main machine has been running smooth as silk for 4 years. I have had rare problems, but when they have occurred, they have been of mixed causes - hard drive failure, a UPS failure which caused unbootable file system corruption, and even a trojan picked up right h
Windows security (Score:2)
It's all about not losing customers (Score:2)
I've been involved with online college since 1997 (as a student), through today as an associate professor at one of those really big online schools you all know. Only until a couple of years ago did the powers that be realize the more IEx, ActiveX and other proprietary requirements you impose on the student body, the FEWER students will pay for your courses. There is no excuse, given the open framework of basic .html, to use ANYTHING that won't work on ANY computer (within reason...no 20 year old cpus, pl
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ANYTHING that won't work on ALL computers
FTFM (fixed that for me).
Oxymorons (Score:2)
Windows Security and On-line Training Courses?
Chinese Democracy and On-line Training Courses?
Christian Science and On-line Training Courses?
Market Self-regulation and On-line Training Courses?
Safe DRM and On-line Training Courses?
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College Course Software? (Score:2)
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To clarify, this is just a link to the bootloader setup. It is not that relevent, IMO, because that is not the typical way that people setup to use virtualization. I don't recommend it for a newbie. It is better to encapsulate your virtual disc as a file on an already known filesystem. Just follow the normal instructions when learning about VMs.
The way you have proposed setting up often leads to confusion. People think they can use the same exact partition they use with a physical machine that they use with
Re:Windows 2000 is out of support (Score:4, Informative)
According to this [microsoft.com], Extended support doesn't end until July 13, 2010.
Bill
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In my current job I was handed a piece of paper with my userid and an 8 character random string of letters and numbers as my password.