Ask Slashdot: Tech For Small Library Automation? 188
Kozz writes "I've recently been tapped as 'the tech guy' at my church where a group familiar with library automation wants to get digital with the relatively small catalog. Right now all the materials are simply on shelves, and people take an item down, fill out the paper card and drop it into a box, and we hope that people correctly calculate their own due dates and return the materials. We had a card catalog, but it went largely unused. We're looking for a complete solution for both administration and self-checkout; label printing, checkout receipts, and so on. Have any Slashdot readers found yourself in this position, and do you have recommendations based on your experiences?"
keep it simple (Score:3, Insightful)
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Re:keep it simple (Score:5, Informative)
Don't listen to the "write your own" crowd.
ILS software has been done to death, and there is alot more to it than you might think even for a small collection, just ask any library sciences grad.
We have used koha several times and very much like it. There are other solutions. Web based is definately a bonus.
Given the isbn may of these systems will fill out the book info for you.
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This.
Also, Access is a terrible solution - it scales so poorly that it will become felt the minute you need TWO (2, one plus one) people to have simultaneous access to the records. It doesn't even support per-entry locks. Terrible.
- A Library Sciences Grad
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Completely agree. Only use Access if it is the ONLY solution available to you – including not having access to paper and pencil. I've seen nothing but problems from systems that started out as just small solutions. They tend to grow over time and Access is a real pain in the back-side.
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Also, we're tlking about a small church library, not some major website with thousands of queries a second, so Access is perfectly adequate.
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Weird - while I was briefly on AOL in the 90s, I always associate it with current LJ. That's probably where I picked it up.
And I certainly wasn't saying that Access wasn't adequate - it has enough functionality, sure. It's just significantly worse than free tools available, including some with similar learning curve. It also requires a lot of extra work to get to the functionality mentioned in the OP.
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No, but they might have one person putting entries in, and one person checking out books. I've seen that workflow at very small (single room) libraries.
And even if they never have more than one person working on it, Access is just kind of terrible. It also would require a lot of custom work to provide "a complete solution for both administration and self-checkout; label printing, checkout receipts, and so on" on top of it, especially in a way that was convenient to the librarians and patrons.
Basically, I
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The single data point of one master's degree doesn't actually give you anywhere near enough information as to whether someone has the technical wherewithal to make a judgement. For instance, a classmate of mine was previously a database programmer for Amazon, and another classmate developed software for a living in the medical sector. I'm currently making a living doing web development, which I don't mention as any sort of credential, but merely to point out that, the library field being not particularly f
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Corrected version: late hours occasionally make for poor proofreading.
The single data point of one master's degree doesn't actually give you anywhere near enough information to make a judgement on someone's technical competence. For instance, one classmate of mine worked previously as a database programmer for Amazon, and another classmate developed software for a living in the medical sector. I'm currently making a living doing web development, which I don't mention as any sort of credential; I merely wan
List of options with necessary complexity (Score:2)
A proper library automation system can save considerable time on an ongoing basis and allow you to actually do what you describe with minimal overall effort.
Such a system would have NISO Z39.50 protocol client support for downloading and working with machine readable cataloguing, MARC, records well catalogued at another library for copy cataloguing to populate the records of an automated library system. Downloading records over Z39.50 directly from most libraries with Z39.50 servers, including the Library
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I'll Third Koha. Back in Lithuania, when we were considering trying to get our prepublishing business involved in it, I went ahead and installed a system on my Debian computer. It worked.
I'm no major tech -- I have trouble nowadays figuring out how to program my computer [did C and DOS-debug ASM back in the day, but haven't done much more then M$ excel in the last 10].
Koha is about as easy as it got back then, and I'd imagine it's matured since then.
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That way you could even track books that are removed and replaced in the wrong position.
All you need is a lesser supercomputer and someone selling decent framerate high-res IP cams in bulk.
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If you have Access which is not super cheap.
If you want to roll your own then you have a LOT of options.
The first question is what do you know?
Single user or network?
If you are going the network route and want to do client server I can think of a few ways to go.
Backed MySQL or PostgreSQL I am a fan of PostgreSQL myself. For a small library a Pentium 3 machine that no one wants running say Ubuntu Server edition will work fine as a server. The data base will be tiny so so you could use a few drives that no o
Start with the basics (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know how small your library is but if it's large enough to warrant a card catalog then I'd suggest first putting all the books in the correct order and making sure the card catalog is accurate. dewey decimal system is your friend here.
Once you have that down and not before, you can set up a basic database for your books.
See if this works... first hit on google:
http://www.primasoft.com/pro_software/library_software_pro.htm [primasoft.com]
245 dollars for a complete package is dead cheap. This is a way better idea then programming your own access database. Do that if you're a bigger library or want customization. You probably don't care.
Look around for some sort of complete all in one package. I just posted the first hit on google for this stuff. They have demos... try it out. Apparently they have barcode compatibility which will make check in and out a lot simpler.
But all of that said... the books have to be in order and the card catalog has to be accurate. If people are going to procrastinate about organizing the books until the software is installed then do it backwards. But that's way more important then the database. A library with the books out of order is dysfunctional unless it's tiny.
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No, you process books that are returned (Score:2)
I don't know how small your library is but if it's large enough to warrant a card catalog then I'd suggest first putting all the books in the correct order and making sure the card catalog is accurate.
Speaking as someone who volunteered for several library projects - that's not how you convert a library over. For your database, you process books as they go through circulation. Ie, book returned? It goes into the "enter and re-shelve" pile. Or, alternatively, you at least initially enter the book whe
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But all of that said... the books have to be in order and the card catalog has to be accurate. If people are going to procrastinate about organizing the books until the software is installed then do it backwards. But that's way more important then the database. A library with the books out of order is dysfunctional unless it's tiny.
Actually, the software can help tremendously in getting the books in order. Most ILS systems have the capability to download MARC records for all the books, which automates the process of cataloguing. Good software will not only print the barcode stickers, but also the catalog stickers for the spine of the book, which you then use in shelving.
If the card catalogue went unused... (Score:5, Insightful)
... what makes you think people will bother learning and using an even more complicated electronic system? Non univerisity library users (generally) tend to be the older generation. They don't have the ooo-shiny! approach to computers so if its a hassle they won't use it. End of.
Not so - plus a suggestion (Score:3)
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... what makes you think people will bother learning and using an even more complicated electronic system? Non univerisity library users (generally) tend to be the older generation. They don't have the ooo-shiny! approach to computers so if its a hassle they won't use it. End of.
(submitter here): Well, the card catalog is largely a system for classification and to help you locate books, to know what you've got, and where it is. In our system, it's actually probably even smaller than everyone is thinking -- imagine a 12x20ft room with shelves from floor to ceiling, and half of them could be empty, depending on how tightly we packed each shelf. This is the reason most people walk in and can, for the most part, easily browse to find something they're interested in or are looking for
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Except that people use electronic catalogs all the time. The reason people don't use card catalogs anymore is that they're used to having search functionality.
Koha? (Score:5, Informative)
I've never used it myself, but I once worked with a librarian who tried out Koha and found it pretty feature-full.
http://www.koha.org/ [koha.org]
It might be a bit of overkill, but it has a large user-base and probably has every feature you could want.
Evergreen by Georgia Public Libraries (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Evergreen by Georgia Public Libraries (Score:5, Informative)
I noticed that the FAQ about Evergreen states the following:
"Evergreen was designed from the ground up to meet the needs of a very large (more than 270-member) library lending consortium whose members collaborate but are not in lockstep on policies. Evergreen needed to be able to handle large indexing and transaction loads while supporting highly-configurable policies for each member library. "
Also the above mentioned KOHA seems to flaunt very complex features (not that these two would then necessarily be complicated or overkill).
Openbiblio, claims to be targeted at smaller libraries.
http://obiblio.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]
I don't know anything about any of these, but maybe worth a look.
From the main site, it doesn't look like much is happening, but a post in the dev part of the forums indicates a new version is being worked on.
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What do you mean?
Do you mean that I don't know what I'm talking about stating that I don't know if said complexity might be suboptimal for a small outfit, meaning that I actually do know that? If so, then thanks, maybe.
I try to appear humble and understated at times, so I apprechiate you stepping up to proclaim "No! You don't know what your talking 'bout when you say you don't know what you're talking 'bout!".
In reality, though, I don't know. I was just googling and wikipediaing about the question at hand,
i can set you up with Voyager (Score:2, Offtopic)
how about a nice Oracle license to go with it? as part of this special slashdot offer, this amazing software can be yours for the low, low price of only $4999.99. But wait! There's more. If you call now.... you will get not only a one hundred, but a two hundred seat license! That's more than enough for any small church! Act fast, this offer is only good for the next 24 hours!
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I suggest you use PMB instead. It's very simple to install (php based) and after an hour of work, you should already be encoding new books.
Avoid Koha like the pleague. It's very powerful, but the install process can take days of work for a unix guru.
The community is very active and helpful. Koha people will ask you to RTFM or hire them.
(Having worked as tech support for my librarian gf who studied the differences between the two, I can tell you I don't invent this).
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Koha is a little bit of a bear compared to "drop and serve" php apps, but it's not "days of work for a unix guru." I'm a web developer, and with hobbyist level sysadmin skills, and I got it done in a couple of hours, most of which was working on my first-ever Apache virtualhost setup because I was already running my website on the same host.
Can't comment on the community, but the docs are pretty useful.
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Re:Koha? (Score:5, Informative)
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Koha is Maori for donation. Treasure would be taonga.
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Koha originated in New Zealand, and the Maori word koha means "gift", in line with FOSS. Liblime is a US company which offers service and support for Koha.
3M SelfCheck Systems (Score:2)
Go completely digital! (Score:1)
As is often the case, embracing a technology completely to its logical end brings new advantages.
(*) This will make Jesus cry. Don't do it. Unless you live in a drought affected area. Then you should probably do it for the good of the neighbouring farmers, but he'll kick your ass when you hit the pearly gate
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I've noticed that the copyright holders of religious material are some of the most zealous about demanding their royalties, even to the point of performance rights for hymns, etc.
They would definitely not like this.
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I was assuming most of the authors would be dead already
Some dead folks tend to make a lot of money: Elvis and Bob Marley, for example. They generate millions every year, despite the fact that they are really quite dead. Amy Winehouse has just joined their choir. Lawyers get the most of it, though.
Even Monty Python's parrot is still making money, and no, he is not resting . . .
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Re:Go completely digital! (Score:5, Insightful)
Why would scanning and ebooks make Jesus cry?
Isn't he the guy who copied all that fish and bread and distributed it for free to all those hungry people?
That's kind of like we now copy and distribute knowledge, information and culture for free to people starved to learn and enjoy culture?
I imagine the bakers and the fishers industry associations of judea (BIAJ and FIAJ, respectively) were real pissed back then .
If we can give knowledge, information and culture to people for free, we obviously should, just as we should copy the fishes and the bread to feed the hungry if we had the power.
Re:Go completely digital! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Go completely digital! (Score:4, Funny)
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Amen Winecask? If there isn't a tribute act by that name, there should be.
Can anyone set up a lending library? (Score:3)
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Meet my friend Mr. First Sale Doctrine [wikipedia.org].
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It depends where your library lives. Some countries have royalty fee Public Lending Right programs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Lending_Right [wikipedia.org]
Others don't.
Big Media suing Small Church isn't exactly good PR. Especially since all the stuff in a church library is mostly His Words. But Big Media has a big enough Ego to sue God.
Big Media doesn't like books, because they can be transferred too easily without proper DRM tracking. Which is why books will be made illegal. Fire Departments will soon be
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It depends where your library lives. Some countries have royalty fee Public Lending Right programs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Lending_Right [wikipedia.org]
Others don't.
Although the poster doesn't mention the country where they are located, it might be useful to note that the First Sale Doctrine in the United States means that libraries don't have to pay any royalty or PLR fee to lend books at all. So, if you're in the US, anyone can start up a library.
Don't bother, paper is good enough (Score:1)
Tech isn't needed everywhere.
Keep it really simple (Score:2)
Just put a webcam where it can see people taking and removing books and record low-rate video.
No one has to change what they do, but you have a record if a book is not returned.
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The nice thing is you only need to look at it if anything goes wrong -- a book is missing or damaged, for instance. Otherwise, people carry on using the paper system they're used to. As for storage, a 1TB disk should hold a year or so no problem.
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You only need to look at a vast stretch of it if anything goes wrong. And I'm not sure how low-rez you're planning on making the video, while having full coverage of the store AND being able to make out faces AND the titles of books.
I'm sorry, but this isn't a workable plan. It also doesn't take any of the OP's requirements into account; does this sound like "a complete solution for both administration and self-checkout; label printing, checkout receipts, and so on" to you?
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By store I mean library.
librarything.com (Score:5, Interesting)
The main advantage of this is that anybody can browse the library's collection anytime they want. On Sunday mornings they flash the URL up on the stage.
We're still using the paper checkout process though. The old ladies that run the library are 80+ years old, and are former librarians back when Eisenhower was in office. I figure one tech upgrade at a time is all they can handle.
Tellico (Score:4, Informative)
Why not use something as simple as possible? Keep the card system in place, and track it all using a collection manager like Tellico. I use Tellico for my personal library, which is probably about the size of the library you're managing. I'd say keep the card system in place - you're never going to get people to fill out online forms etc. And then use Tellico to answer the questions "What have I got?," "What's been checked out?" and "to Whom?" Seems like that's all you need at this stage.
Wikipedia has an article (Score:2)
if it aint broke (Score:2)
dont computerize it
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It probably is, though. I suspect people borrow books, forget the due date or even that they have it, and the "librarians" are stuck with a large box of cards and no idea which refer to books that are due and which aren't. When someone returns a book they need to go through all the lending cards until you find the right one. If you can't find it - maybe the lender has forgotten to fill it in, or it was confused with one by another lender on return or ..
Basically they don't have an accurate record which b
If not too extensive... (Score:2)
I have used MediaMan in the past, and enjoyed what it brought to the table. http://www.imediaman.com/products/mediaman.html [imediaman.com]
It supports flagging books as loaned out to person X, etc. It can export the database as a website so people can hit a web page to know if a book is in or out, etc.
They have a server product, but I've never used it.
I'm not associated with the project, just a user of it.
Other similar media organizers probably exist too, depending on how "formal" you want the experience to be, and if othe
Small? Checkout based on trust? Delicious Library. (Score:5, Informative)
If your library is small and you have no tracking what-so-ever installed, or only trust-based tracking, Delicious Library [delicious-monster.com] might be the right thing. It's a personal solution focussing on private collections, but it is very fun and easy to use, supports barcode scanning with simple webcams and retrieves its item/katalog data via the web by scraping amazon and other sources when adding items, so you'll save yourself the hassle of data entry.
Even if you use a different solution in the end, the data retrieval system might be worth looking at, to save yourself data-entry headaches.
My 2 cents.
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...Delicious Library might be the right thing...
Seconded. If you're looking for something really, really simple and easy to use for people that are not technically expert and you don't mind shelling out for an old Mac Mini and $35 for the software; this is a really solid choice. From a usability point of view it simply blows everything else out of the water.
Use barcodes.. (Score:1)
What I read first, was ... (Score:1)
"Tech for a Small Liberation Army". %-)
code4lib (Score:2)
Cheap and easy.... (Score:2)
Buy a old Tape library robot from ebay, instead of tapes make it hold books. now you have a "library in a vending machine" and it will keep those churchies from stealing books or keeping them for months past the return date.
Bonus points if you make it look like a REDBOX rental vending machine.
library softare (Score:3)
My only experience with Library software was with Follett's package in a school library with about 8000 items. I do not recommend Follett. It runs fine and user complaints were minimal. As I recall, the database self destructed a couple of times, but reviving the DB was fairly straightforward. On the other hand installation and upgrade were unpleasant. The maintenance instructions verged on incomprehensible and one upgrade required rebuilding the entire data base -- a process that turned out to be appallingly slow. I had to wait for a vacation to do that. And from I'm told it is expensive. Fortunately, it didn't come out of my budget.
On my last visit to our local library, the librarian -- who was not a fan of Follett either -- told me that they had just upgraded from Follett to an open source product of some sort thereby saving a bundle of money. She was quite enthused about the new software. I didn't have a lot of time, but I did look at the screens a user would encounter and they looked fine. It looks like the program they changed to is Koha. Here's a link to their catalog on line http://brownell.kohavt.org/ [kohavt.org]
You get what you pay for (Score:2)
As previous posters have mentioned, ILS software has been done to death, and it's complex enough that it's consolidated down to probably half a dozen to a dozen serious products. There are a couple of FOSS products out there and several that are not. In my experience, the ones that are not are more full-featured and require less configuration and less day-to-day management. I have a preferred ILS vendor I'd recommend (Innovative Interfaces), but they're almost certainly far too expensive (and far too pow
I think you need a librarian more than a system (Score:5, Insightful)
When a church -- or other small organization's -- library falls into disorder, it's usually because the little old lady, who served as the volunteer librarian since she was middle aged, has gone to her reward.
Unfortunately, no amount of automation can make up for this. Your system -- no matter how advanced, primitive, simple or whatever -- really requires an owner. Without this, it will fall into disorder just as the previous one did and you'll be back to square one.
If you can't find a new volunteer librarian, don't do it. You'll spend most of your time cataloging, and then entropy will take over.
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Bingo. Mod this up.
Any cataloging system (library or otherwise) will eventually rot if there is no-one to own and maintain it, ensuring that the data matches the real world.
This is why retailers have monthly inventories. No matter how good your system is, if it's not physically attached to the objects being tracked (and sometime even then) then discrepancies between the physical objects and the catalog will creep into place until it reaches the same out-of-date situation the submitter finds themselves in no
Some reviews and suggestions: calibre or gcstar (Score:2)
I happened to have scanned my modest book library here (~500 items) with GCstar [gcstar.org], which works pretty well. It can download covers and details from Amazon and so on, based on the ISBN (although the latest version in Debian fails to do that properly [debian.org] for some reason). Before deciding on GCstar, I had evaluated multiple solutions [koumbit.org], including Koha and custom-based solutions, none of which being simple enough for my uses, which made me settle on GCstar... The full details of the evaluation are in the Koumbit wiki [koumbit.net].
S
Bar code scanner (Score:2)
Tellico (Score:2)
For a modestly-sized library, Tellico [slashdot.org] could fit your needs.
Claris Filemaker Pro 2.0 v1 (Score:2)
I am a sometimes user of a simple library database, at a volunteer organisation, that was developed in Claris Filemaker Pro 2.0 v1. This is "as old as the hills", but you might be able to find a free download! (Contact me if you'd like me to get the source files from that organisation; that might make building the application easier.)
Otherwise, LibraryThing.com looks fine, and participating there will allow lots of people to know what religious publications are about.
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Why would you believe anything until it has been proven to be so?
People generally believe what you tell them - evaluation of what you tell them only comes afterwards. There have been scientific studies investigating that - if you bombard people with statements and don't give them time to analyze them, they'll file them in the "true" category.
That behavior is basically a requirement - given that we start out knowing very little, we rely on our parent's telling us things which are true. As a result most c
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What do you mean by "proven"?
You have an implicit faith that this term is meaningful.
Really, if you're going to only believe things that are proven, you should believe nothing at all, because everything you imagine to be "proven" ultimately relies on some assumption that is not "proven" and moreover cannot be "proved".
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What do you mean by "proven"?
I simply mean sufficient evidence or argument for the truth of a proposition. Lots of things can be proven.
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Ah, more concepts that you have implicit faith in: "sufficient", "evidence" and "truth".
You assume that there is "truth"; that there is some universal and objective reality. Then you assume that you can discover facts about this truth using "evidence". But of course you can't gather all the relevant evidence to establish those facts, so you assume a third concept of "sufficient" to describe your threshold for establishing a fact.
None of these things can be proved to have any relationship to reality at all
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Why wouldn't observations or logical conclusions have no relation with reality?
That said, I don't think in a single truth exists per se. And since ongoing progress is made in the form of observations and reason, new evidence and arguments present themselves continuously. So even "the truth" is really "the current truth".
But I do think it is reasonable to assume things backed up by more evidence or argument are more true than things that are backed up by less evidence or argument. And I fail to see why you w
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Well, it's common sense that they would. But the argument is more technical than that. It's about the nature of proof.
What do you think "proof" is? Proof must be contingent on "the current truth" actually being true, right? That is, proof is not a statement "Y = true", but an implication, "X implies Y". The assumptions (X) are contingent on "the current truth" at the time when the proof is produced. If these later turn out to b
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Cool, thanks for sharing this stuff.
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>Really, if you're going to only believe things that are proven, you should believe nothing at all, because everything you imagine to be "proven" ultimately relies on some assumption that is not "proven" and moreover cannot be "proved".
Now this is a fine example of the kind of logic that an apologist must resort to in order to set the groundwork for proof that there is a god. Basically it sets you up for the next argument which will tell you that the existence of a god, given that nothing can actually be proven or disproven, is equally likely. Which is bullshit. The existence of a god is still as near to impossible that anything can get even if you accept that nothing can be proven.
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It looks like perfectly ordinary logic to me. You are the one ascribing theological meaning to it.
Proof always relies on assumptions, and if the assumptions are invalid, so is the proof. Naturalism is an assumption about reality. Don't say "I only believe in things that can be proved" unless you want to see that assumption deconstructed.
If you want to argue with people about theology and the tricks used by those nasty "apologists", then I'm sorry, I can't be bothered to oblige you. Please try over there [reddit.com].
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Best fits *your* experience. Please do not assume that you know anyone else's experience.
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I did not say that, what I said was that even if you accept the premise that nothing can be proven, the argument for the existence of a god remains extremely weak.
Never said you did. I was merely restating my actual argument, since you seem to have assumed it was actually "the groundwork" for some /r/atheism-style straw man argument for the existence of God. And you have told everyone else here that my logic is somehow flawed ("the kind of logic that an apologist must resort to") though of course you neve
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"merely attack the very foundation of all argument"
Care to clarify where I did this?
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Since when do you need faith to *not* believe something? Why would you believe anything until it has been proven to be so?
Seems like many people are brain-wired that way. Most of the atheists believe in Apocalyptic Global Warming, which to me is just as whacko as the Apocalyptic Christian Fundamentalists or the Apocalyptic Muslim Shiites. Normally I'd say that the whackos have every right to be whacko as long as they don't pose a hazard or an excessive resource drain on society as a whole, but these Apocalypse embracing religions really are getting to be a hazard and resource drain.
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I don't think you quite get what the GP said, or you have some very interesting ideas.
There is a difference between believing something doesn't occur, and having uncertainty about it's occurrence.
There was a time people believed that plate tectonics and continental drift absolutely did not exist. That was a belief in such a "not", and even with a lot of evidence towards the contrary.
Faith is simply a belief in a concept (including a concept that another is wrong) or idea, particularly without sufficient evi
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Any course worth its salt would note that science is only one branch of philosophy, with limited application, and repeat what I said in the above post.
Which is just as much bullshit now as it was then.
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I've never heard of that. Thank you for the reference.
Although, reading the Wikipedia article, he said there is much to be gained if God exists, and little to be gained from wagering God doesn't exist. I'd argue that there is a lot to be gained from wagering that God doesn't exist, proportionally speaking. All choices are valid, and even if you do wager God does exist, there are so many possible views. My involves that God should be worthy of us, and deciding if a rule is from God or the church based on tha
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You seem to be the unreasonable, with a lack of sense and reality. Neither atheism or theism have any particularly strong claim to truth. Both require aspects of faith. Atheism requires faith that there isn't some power beyond our comprehension and ability to examine, and theism requires there is.
Lemme see if I get this. Theisim requires faith. Faith to believe in something for which there is no real evidence.
Atheism, requires faith. Faith to NOT believe in something for which there is no evidence.
Nope, still don't get it, please explain further.
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FTFY
Agnosticism, is a lack of faith - a state of uncertainty, where you don't believe or disbelieve in either. Either side, both theism and atheism, requires some faith.
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No it isn't, Agnosticism is a belief about reality and the nature of knowledge that some things (usually the nature/existance of god) are unknowable.
No. Atheism is not belief in no god. Atheism is the lack of belief in god. I can clearly say that I do not believe in god without taking a position on the knowability of god.
--
JimFive
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