Ask Slashdot: Teaching Chemistry To Home-Schooled Kids? 701
First time accepted submitter mikewilsonuk writes "I have a 10-year-old grandson who has shown an interest in chemistry. He is home educated and doesn't read as well as schooled kids of his age. He hasn't had much science education and no chemistry at all. None of his parents or grandparents have chemistry education beyond the school minimum and none feel confident about teaching it. My own memories of chemistry teaching in school are of disappointment, a shocking waste of everyone's time and extreme boredom. I think there must be a better way. Can anyone suggest an approach that won't ruin a child's interest?"
This will fix your life. (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.amazon.com/Thames-Kosmos-645014-CHEM-C3000/dp/B00007B8M6
One word: Explosives (Score:5, Interesting)
Pretty much. (Score:5, Insightful)
At that age, I would suggest to show them what chemistry can do: blow things up (safely), make things turn different colors, make things smell bad, or burn things (again, safely!). Then go into why the stuff is doing what it is doing. Finally, once you explained why it is doing what it is doing, see if you can change things up to come up with different effects.
Leave the boring shit about valence electrons to later. Just show him what chemistry can do. If that doesn't hook him, move on.
Re:Pretty much. (Score:5, Insightful)
On the same note, combine chemistry and home ec. I'm guessing it's harder to be bored when you can eat the results of your experiment.
Some cooking is biology (e.g. yeast and fermenting) but most is chemistry. What are baking soda and baking power used for? What gives foods different flavors (sweet, sour, salty, etc.)? Smell as a whole is why too advanced for that age, but you may want to look at specific odors, such as almond or banana. What is it that makes a banana smell the way it does vs. what you get in banana extract of flavoring used for cooking.
Another thing on the practical side, but not as much fun, is cleaning. Why do we use acid (bleach) for some cleaning tasks but base (ammonia) for others? Definitely cover why you don't mix the two (bleach and ammonia).
There's tons of home experiments, even with the post-9/11 issues with getting certain chemicals. Take a cup of every liquid in the fridge, put a small piece of meat in each. What's happens over the next week?
When you get the electrons and valence and that stuff, go to fireworks. Read & observe--this is not a field for home hands on experimenting. What is added to fireworks to get different colors? Why do different things have different colors when they burn?
Re: (Score:3)
When my son turned 5, I expected him to go to Kindergarten like any other kid. It turned out my wife had different idea, she decided to home school him. I didn't have an issue with this initially because of his education, as she was in fact an elementary school teacher for years, but was now a stay-at-home mom. My initial objection was because by then I'd expected her to return to the work force because we needed the mone
Video vice Reading, try Khan (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.khanacademy.org/#chemistry
Re:One word: Explosives (Score:5, Interesting)
Finding bomb making chemicals in Nepal isn't exactly difficult, so I went with nuclear (fission) devices. That lets you cover the basics of atoms, radioactivity, E=mc^2, chain reactions, a whole bunch of interesting physics, but without the worry that they're going to pop out and buy some U235 or Plutonium.
So I'd suggest a similar approach - find out why the kid is interested in chemistry and work from there. There will probably be a whole lot of "well, before you can understand X you need to know a little about Y...", but if the kid can see the end result of the study then it gives them a little more incentive and interest.
Chemistry experiments I enjoyed as a child:
Growing copper sulphate crystals and/or crystal gardens.
pH testing
Custard powder bombs (under supervision!)
Non-Newtonian fluids (custard again)
Acid/Alkali reactions (the usual volcano)
Producing Hydrogen by reaction or electrolysis and making it go POP!
Re: (Score:3)
My early chemistry researches were finding household chemicals that could blow things up. I found them. YMMV
True that! These days I would have been locked up in Gitmo before I was 14, and I was a Boy Scout. Do you know how many interesting things a 12 year old can do with a nearly unlimited supply of carbide? I knew how to generate hydrogen for explosive balloons using household chemicals such as Drano. I learned about oxidizing agents using KClO3 fertilizer, which was pretty easy to get. I didn't learn how to make thermite until I got into high school though. That's the kind of stuff that got and kept me i
Re:One word: Explosives (Score:5, Funny)
Re:One word: Explosives (Score:4, Funny)
A lot of Irish were blowing stuff up in the 80's...
This made me laugh uncontrollably, then feel bad for doing so...
A book so good it was banned! (Score:5, Informative)
A good place to start is "The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments" by Robert Brent. Some of the material is a bit dated but the overall presentation is great.
Re:A book so good it was banned! (Score:5, Informative)
There's a link to a Free Download of this book here:
http://chemistry.about.com/b/2011/11/02/download-the-golden-book-of-chemistry-experiments.htm
Maybe concentrate on reading. (Score:5, Informative)
Via these magazines he can learn to read AND learn science at the same time:
http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/prior/ [clarkesworldmagazine.com]
http://www.astronomy.com/ [astronomy.com]
http://www.sciencenews.com/ [sciencenews.com]
AND audio/video courses on chemistry (a lot of this stuff you can download for free off isohunt.com) http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/search/search.aspx?searchphrase=chemistry [thegreatcourses.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Fixed Link:
http://www.sciencenews.org/ [sciencenews.org]
http://kids.nationalgeographic.com/ [nationalgeographic.com] (Formerly World magazine) These magazines are where I discovered my love of science and learning (and reading).
Why isn't he in school? (Score:5, Insightful)
This sounds like one of those classic cases where the client thinks his knows what he wants but doesn't realize he's wrong.
First, why isn't the child in a regular school system?
Assuming that he's not in public school for some reason, what system is the parents using for education? There exist full homeschooling packages that are intended to give students all the necessary resources to learn.
Assuming he's using one of those and the parents find that the chemistry in it is lacking, why not part-time enroll the child in a local school? From what I understand this isn't all that uncommon for home-schooled kids to get science instruction.
Assuming that's entirely untenable, what about hiring a private tutor for science education? Is there a local university you can contact for resources on this?
Finally, why are you asking Slashdot and not a homeschooling community?
(I'm attempting to avoid any assumptions as to the reason for home schooling.)
Re:Why isn't he in school? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's hard to find a home schooling group. Sure, there are a lot of friendly one, but the vast majority are doing it for either:
Religious beliefs.
Ignorance about the schools system.
I say hard, but frankly I haven't found one that doesn't have some crazy illiteracy bouncing around. From young earth to anti-vaccines.
And of course actual science and teaching are disciplines, not something you read from a book.
Personally, My kids go do school during the week, and then I sneak home schooling in under the guise of fun science.
Well, my kids are much older now, so there really isn't any guise about it anymore.
Re:Why isn't he in school? (Score:5, Insightful)
All you need is a five-minute conversation with a bad school administrator and you will never ask "why isn't this child in school?" again. :-)
Re: (Score:3)
When they aren't, they are basket cases.
In other words, school administrators.
Re: (Score:3)
I tried to word all of my assumptions in a manner that makes it obvious what solution I think should be explored if they were wrong. For example, "[W]hy not part-time enroll the child in a local school? ... Assuming that's entirely untenable..." -- obviously I think that a possible solution is part-time enrollment in public school for science education, but if that's not possible...
I don't think Slashdot is necessarily the worst site to ask generally geeky questions but I think the submitter could probably
Re:Why isn't he in school? (Score:4, Informative)
Being a scientist generally doesn't pay well (either here in the USA or in the UK, where the submitter is). You probably get paid more being a chemistry teacher.
Chemical engineering, OTOH, is totally different.
Re:Why isn't he in school? (Score:5, Interesting)
"Clever parent" -- from current (limited) evidence, that's probably not the case here.
1. The grandparent is reasonably intelligent. The question is clear and concise; he's been in the computer industry and coding for decades (according to his web site [whisperingwind.co.uk]).
2. The kid is below-average in reading and hasn't had much science by age 10--probably not a great job of homeschooling.
3. The grandparent is asking the question, not the parents--the parents aren't doing a good enough job and the grandparent felt the need to step in. Most likely the parents aren't smart enough to do it well.
4. The grandparent probably knows he wont change the parents' minds about homeschooling so is trying to make the best of things by giving his grandson a decent chemistry education.
(There are alternate explanations--eg. parents too busy, grandparent bored and finding something to fill his time--but (2) is pretty damning.)
Sadly... (Score:5, Interesting)
and
Beakman's World [netflix.com]
Hey, can't be any worse than the "education" he's received up to this point...
Re:Sadly... (Score:5, Insightful)
There are some episodes of Good Eats that would probably be useful.
Reading is fundamental..... (Score:5, Insightful)
DIY project (Score:2)
Teach them what can be made with fertilizer.
Re: (Score:2)
Teach them what can be made with fertilizer.
That sounds more like an agriculture class than a chemistry class...
Elementeo (Score:4, Interesting)
Get a professional (Score:2, Insightful)
Listen, Chemistry is not like Reading Riting and Rithmetic. Chemistry is a complex science. It cannot just be suddenly dropped upon an interested 10 year old and hope it sticks. The child needs to fully understand advanced mathematics like Algebra. He must also have proficient reading comprehension because Chemistry texts are not light reading. A basic understanding of Biology would also be greatly helpful. Then there's being able to conduct basic lab experiments to help the child grasp what actually
Re:Get a professional (Score:5, Insightful)
I am a chemist, and for 90+% of chemistry (especially at that level), you don't need any math beyond fractions and the ability to count to eight.
Yes, it is better to be taught by someone that knows what they are doing, but the notion that you need advanced math to teach basic chemistry is ludicrous. The notion that biology is "helpful" is even moreso. The level where the two intersect is extremely advanced, and won't be taught to ANY homeschooled kid prior to at least the tenth grade.
Re: (Score:3)
The kid is 10. That means at best th
Maximum Exposure (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
Are you crazy? He might never be allowed to board a plane anymore.
You live in the USA? (Score:3, Funny)
Can't be too difficult to teach the kid about fire, water, earth, and air.
Re: (Score:3)
And don't forget Intelligent Falling. [theonion.com]
Not sure what the best way is, but I do know... (Score:2)
...you should take about 20 paces AWAY from his workstation whenever he starts his "learning".
School (Score:4, Insightful)
This is an obvious failure of home "schooling". Send the kid to school. Let him learn to socialize for one, and get a well rounded education his parents apparently lack. The fact that he's had minimal science education for the first 4-5 grades of his life, is really a sad testament to this type of education.
And just because *you* hated your chemistry education doesn't mean it was bad. People tend to say things are "a waste of everyone's time" when they really mean "it's something I had no interest in / aptitude for".
"Socialization" (Score:4, Insightful)
Let him learn to socialize for one, and get a well rounded education
By "socialize" you mean, get taunted for his slowness in reading, and get beaten down by the kids until all interest in anything dies.
Sounds awesome.
As for a well-rounded education, that's exactly why you would homeschool. The public schools teach to tests, not to understanding, or learning how to learn.
Re:"Socialization" (Score:5, Interesting)
I've never heard of children taunted for being slower than their peers at reading. Normally the situation is reversed.
Re: (Score:3)
Hmm, public school sure did me some good. After about 8th grade I stopped making friends, and after years of talk therapy (if I were autistic, I think someone would have said something, but not even ass burgers), now that I'm nearly 30, I've started to be able to make connections with people again. Ironically, discovering synthetic marijuana was one of the catalysts of that. Woke up something I'd buried deep inside back before everything went horribly wrong in middle school.
Although I reailzed at one
We home shcool: Youtube/Google/Amazon, or co-op (Score:5, Informative)
NetLogo? (Score:2)
Saddened :( (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm glad to see, judging by all the "Anonymous Coward" comments, that I'm not the only one who believes that parents that aren't specifically trained to replace the teachers their children would normally encounter in a public/private school *shouldn't* be allowed to home school. You are doing nothing but a HUGE disservice to your child(ren) by keeping them from their peers, sheltered from the world, and away from opinions that are different from yours. We all *NEED* these kinds of interactions in order to better cope with the world when we become adults and move out on our own.
If the parents that do this to their kids use the "schools aren't safe", "schools aren't teaching what I think they should be", or "schools are failing our children" excuses should *get involved* in their local school, and encourage all other parents to do the same. If their schools really are falling behind in some way, it's *THE PARENTS FAULT* for not being involved.
I specifically left out any of the varied religious excuses, as I don't believe they're valid -- religion has zero place in a publicly funded school, and should be reserved exclusively for church and home. If parents want their child to have some schooling with religious content, they need to pay to send them to such a school.
I also don't want to hear any of this "I don't have the time to get involved in (insert public school function) here" excuses. If you don't have the time to raise your kid(s) properly, DON'T HAVE THEM.
You have a sick idea of "shelter" (Score:5, Insightful)
You are doing nothing but a HUGE disservice to your child(ren) by keeping them from their peers, sheltered from the world
Sheltered? Who is more sheltered, a kid that interacts with adults every day learning in the real world, or one that simply lives to avoid attack by the pack of adolescents they are forced into?
On Slashdot of all places we should welcome and embrace the idea that kids may well and truly be better off being with adults more often than children, until they reach a more mature age. But I guess it depends on if you want a mature mental state, or a childish one...
I was home-schooled all through junior high and high school. It let me figure out what I wanted to do before college. It gave me a sense of self-esteem that I did not have in school before. It gave me willpower to make my own choices instead of doing what everyone else did.
That was invaluable, and I maintain that every single child that can be home schooled should be. There is literally NOTHING a parent could do worse than most public schools will do with kids minds, and with the internet to help you with coursework you can easily equal a public school education.
The real world of home-school interaction (Score:3)
As a homeschooler, I:
* Went on field trips a few times a week to learn things on location somewhere.
* Spent a lot of time with friends who were neighbors after they were released from school for the day.
* Yes, sometimes I even talked to or learned things from my parents.
* Played sports on a team in a home-schooling sports league.
* Wrote and sold a guide book for the game "Dungeon Master" in collaboration with another adult who was a writer.
Basically, I interacted with the world while my friends were in a zo
Re:Saddened :( (Score:5, Informative)
Doesn't shock me at all, since the statement "half of all children that attend school perform below average" is THE DEFINITION OF AVERAGE. I'll even bet you that the other half of all school children perform above average. Ever seen a bell curve??
I agree with the GP, if you're school sucks in your area, do something about it! Saying "our nation's schools are horrible, let's all homeschool or send everyone to private schools" only moves the problem around and shits on all of the good work that public school teachers have been doing for decades (my mother retired from teaching your kids after 40 years). There are definitely real problems in public education, but scrapping the system completely and starting over is not a solution, nor is bleeding it dry financially and "standardized testing" our kids into little Scantron-bubbling morons.
The answer is obvious. (Score:4, Insightful)
It doesn't sound like you or his parents are suited to school him, then. Send him to school before you ruin his life. You and/or his parents should be ashamed.
Start simple (Score:5, Informative)
Explain basic reactions. Don't get into Moles, or math.
Give him the tools, get him to ask question and experiment.
When something happen and he want to know why, don't tell him. Show him how to find out. My kids are quite internet savey because often when they wan to know something, I'll find a good page, and read it with them. You're not lecturing, they are digging. I never said 'just cause' to my kids. when they wen through their Why phase I answered everything as accurate as reasonable, and if I didn't know, we looked it up. Every time I hear parent create a disengenious answer I cringe a little. ITwill be so hard to gte that piece of bad information out of their head.
If he is into something, have a goal related to that that can be solved with what you want to teach, in this case chemistry, then do that.
For example, maybe he is into trains. Well, what chemicals can you get to have him experiment with to make smoke?
Volcanoes? well , that's an easy one.
When he figures something out, but wan'ts it to be better, then introduce to some more complex chemistry ideas.
If you want to impress him, make some elephant toothpaste. Get your supplies from a chemistry supply place.
Mentos at soda is another great way to get them to ask question.
OTOH, if his homeschooling was done by lazy people, he may have had the why in him buried deep under a lie of belief. SO you need to gently get it back out.
Khan Academy (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.khanacademy.org/#chemistry [khanacademy.org]
Sounds to me like home schooling is letting the kid down a bit. I loved my public Chemistry / physics education... Making rockets, playing with Science Olympiad, Egg Drop contests. I remember on the first day in my High School chem class, the teacher demonstrated infra-red radiation and the speed of light by taking a bowl filled with soap water, and a propane tap, and creating (and then lighting on fire) propane bubbles. He pointed out that as soon as you saw the flash, you felt the heat, and then went into a lecture about wave radiation and the light spectrum.
You can probably do that with your own kid, but there is something to be said about the benefits of learning something from someone who is passionate about the material.
Hmmm ... (Score:5, Insightful)
At some point, someone might tell you that if you can't keep him up to the standards of the kids who aren't home schooled, he's going to need some remedial education and possibly be required to attend public school -- and possibly lose a year in the process.
I had some cousins who were home-schooled ... and there was a curriculum they were required to have covered. And if they didn't, you weren't allowed to home-school any more and would need to transition to public school. I think for high-school or even a little before they all ended up going back to public school.
So, are you helping or him or hurting him in the long run if you can't get him through what he needs? It's difficult to teach something you don't know enough about yourself.
As A Home School Parent... (Score:5, Insightful)
All of my children are in a home school program to specifically achieve the following:
* Dramatically improved science curriculum over state requirements.
* Aggressive reading and mathematics programs.
* Enhanced educational environment (a quiet, well equipped classroom).
* Teachers who really care, and want each child to be able to compete in a demanding global economy as adults. We love our students like parents should, because we are both.
In order to teach my nine year old chemistry, I do not have to be an expert chemist. I simply have to know more than a nine year old does about chemistry. It really isn't that hard, and it has been fun for all of us to expand our knowledge. If you are going to engage in home education, you can't do it sitting on the sidelines. You have to educate yourself first. Then you can teach. Expect more from the teacher than you do the student.
If none of the above is happening for your grandson, consider placing that child in public school. Many public education options are abysmal. If results from home education are worse than the public option, consider that a major red flag. Your benchmark should be a grade or two ahead in most subjects (unless the child has a learning disability).
Teaching at home doesn't work for everyone. It isn't always the ideal solution. I wish I had a bazillion and one dollars to hire private instructors with decades of experience to do the teaching. There is no doubt, though, that what we are doing is working. All of my children, even the ones who struggle, placed in the top 5% in the last round of state required testing. They are not geniuses. They simply know how to work. Something their peers tend to have a hard time with.
Comment removed (Score:3)
Hold on, you have something else to fix first ... (Score:4, Informative)
Before you ask, their mother (my sister) did not go to college, nor did she attend any secondary school. She didn't load up on extracurricular activities in school, and she didn't marry into an intellectual family. Her husband is an MBA, but he directs their learning far less than my sister. It's not impossible for a high school grad to learn how to do it right, but it's not easy to actually *do* it right. You have to be willing to let them go learn. Both children are far more outgoing with people of all ages and flavors than most adults I know. They are well spoken, polite, and fit well into almost any civilized conversation.
Get your grandson to read. That's critical at this point. Throw the chores out the window if you have to, let him skip church to read, let him read all night in bed (for now), but put something in his hand that will engross him. Harry Potter, The Hunger Games, Artemis Fowl, *anything* by Rick Riordon, just get that kid reading something besides the bible. Now is NOT the time to censor his reading, it's time to let it go. All the books mentioned above are great for pre-teens and young adults, though perhaps the Hunger Games could wait a year or so.
And mark my words, if religious censorship is the reason he hasn't read these books already, then I'm guessing chemistry is not going to be a good choice anyway. Too much science, not enough faith.
Home schooled children don't have to be idiot god-botherers, and they don't have to be idiot hippies. They can be very intelligent, creative, and amazing. But only if their parents *LET* them. Don't direct their learning, EMPOWER it. There's a big difference.
Re:Hold on, you have something else to fix first . (Score:4, Insightful)
Some personal insights... (Score:3)
1) Less than public school kids reading ability essentially equates to illiteracy. Considering how many of my classmates in public high school could not read beyond 4th grade level.
2) Don't blame home schooling itself. Just as there are good and band schools. There are good and bad home schools.
My wife was home schooled. She is now an RN. Her brother was home schooled. Earn a number of competitive scholarships. He was even on the TV show "The Scholar" and placed 3rd. Attended Dartmouth university and did quite well. My wife's sister, who was also homeschooled, just graduated from Dartmouth as well.
Overall, I would say that 90% of the homeschoolers excel over the public school students. Yes, there are some failings. But far far less than found in public schools.
Look to the Boy Scouts (Score:3)
Cub Scout Science [meritbadge.org] Some great chemistry experiments for young ones are:
Keep it simple and stuff they can relate to. Be sure to talk about safety on dangerous reactions, acid and alkaloid burns, etc. Check out also the Khan Academy online - lots of good stuff in there. www.khanacademy.org/
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
you will at glass etching companies though ;)
Re:Thought so. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Thought so. (Score:5, Insightful)
I have cousins who were homeschooled for most of their school careers. They went to public high school, though, because there are so many resources and social experiences you have there that you don't have at home. They all graduated pretty much at the top of their respective classes. I have no problem with homeschooling if you can provide an excellent education at home.
This grandchild is below-average in reading, which is obviously a crucial component of primary education. Failing at that, and not being comfortable with science, the parents are probably not qualified to be homeschooling the child. It is reasonable, then, to assume that they are not doing it because they can do a better job than the school system. That means it could easily be for religious reasons, which I believe are a terrible reason to homeschool. The submission likely would have said otherwise if that were not the reason.
Re:Thought so. (Score:4, Insightful)
The child may be behind due to learning disabilities (dyslexia, etc), that many of the school systems handle very poorly. I have seen children who have made it to 3rd grade not knowing how to read due to dyslexia but the school did not know because of clueless or careless teachers, overcrowding, or lack of well handled funding.
Don't always assume that the homeschooling is due to religious reasons. After all, they did come to a geek/nerd related web site to ask, rather then a church based web site.
Re:Thought so. (Score:5, Interesting)
I have seen children who have made it to 3rd grade not knowing how to read due to dyslexia but the school did not know because of clueless or careless teachers
Please be aware that teachers are not allowed to make those kinds of determinations. My wife is a 2nd grade teacher - with a masters degree in special education from a very prestigious university - and is required to refer students to the administration for screening. If the parents don't want their obviously autistic child tested, it doesn't happen. A lot of parents don't want their child labeled with a learning disability, even it it will help them in the long run.
So don't blame the teachers.
KEEP HIS INTEREST ALIVE? (Score:5, Informative)
Well, you can teach him to make things that blow-up and things that burn through counter-tops. Thatt ought to maintain the attention and interest of a ten-year-old boy, for many years to come!
Seriously, try Aurora Lipper's site. She produces age-level appropriate, experimental science education for home schoooling and kid's programmes.
http://www.superchargedscience.com/ [superchargedscience.com]
Science teachers, in underfunded districts use this, too.
Re:Thought so. (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, the lack of reading ability is a poor sign, but not necessarily proof that the parents are slacking. My sister can read very well, but it took a lot of blood, sweat, and tears from my mom to get her there (my siblings and I were home schooled, obviously). If you had looked at her development at 9 or 10, you might have reached the same conclusion (parents are incompetent and/or don't care)... but neither were true. It just took a lot of time and effort with her, more than it did with my brother and more than it would take for most children her age. That skews results.
Your logic as to why the parents are doing it for religious reasons is also highly suspect. Even if the parents are incompetent, there's no reason to assume that they would recognize that (or that they wouldn't think the school system more incompetent even if they did recognize it). The parents believing they can do better is still absolutely a reasonable possibility, given what we know.
Re: (Score:3)
It is reasonable, then, to assume that they are not doing it because they can do a better job than the school system. That means it could easily be for religious reasons, which I believe are a terrible reason to homeschool. The submission likely would have said otherwise if that were not the reason.
How did you manage to go from
1) It could be religious reasons
to
2) It's probably religious reasons because the submitter didn't say otherwise?
Re:Thought so. (Score:5, Insightful)
Because all religious people wind up working for churches? I did not grow up in a religious home, however I am a theist. I'm also an engineer. The idea that religious people somehow do not or cannot contribute to society is weird at best. In fact there are other engineers on my team who are also theists and they do an excellent job. One coming to a logical conclusion that there is a God does not correlate to their ability to do work.
Now my daughter is being home schooled. Not for religious reasons but because public schools teaches to the lowest common denominator. If she was going to public school, she would be in pre-school, but she already reads, adds, subtracts, multiplies, does simple algebra (2 times duck = 2 ducks) and has basic science concepts. The only place she is lacking is writing (she writes like a kindergartner) and history/government. But she's only 5 and Kindergarten doesn't even teach that. So this weird concept on Slashdot that th== dumb is plain academic intolerance in action.
Re:Thought so. (Score:5, Interesting)
I think religious reasons are a fine reason to homeschool. I'd rather they deal with those personal matters at home, instead of demanding the public schoolteachers waste time acknowledging or debating their particular flavor of pseudo-science. And for the path those kids are likely to end up on, which might be theology or music or church administration, it's a perfectly adequate education.
No, a religious homeschooling is not setting those kids up for careers teaching biology or any of the sciences, but with a belief structure like that at home, those kids probably weren't going to end up contributing to the field anyway.
One of my best friends, a devout Christian (elder in his church, etc) who has devout Christian parents, was homeschooled. He did his PhD at MIT and a post-doc at another fairly prestigious university. He's currently a professor at a decent state university whose name you would recognize if I told you. He and I are in the same general area and I'm familiar with his publication record, so I will add that, IMO, the job is way below his weight class. His wife (homeschooled; graduated #1 in her law school) wanted to live in a particular part of the country, so that's where he found a job. One of his siblings has a BS in computer science and another a BS in chemical engineering. The third has an MA in music education and is a public school choir director, so I guess you got one out of four right, there.
I have another Christian friend who was homeschooled. He's 29 years old. As you suggested, he is quite gifted musically, has a masters in theology, and works part time at his church. Of course, he earned that degree while simultaneously working on a PhD in engineering at the University of Texas at Austin, which he fairly recently finished. He is also heavily involved in local 3rd party politics (so much so that he told me the other day that he was offered a position by the party at the state level. He turned it down to work at a local start-up company). His wife doesn't have her fingers in quite as many pies, but she was also homeschooled (they met as kids) and is about to complete an MS in cognitive science.
These are admittedly all "anecdotal evidence." I honestly don't know whether having religious parents and being homeschooled makes a child more or less likely than average to excel in the sciences. (Although it can safely be said that having religious parents tends to result in better outcomes on a wide variety of other measures. See, for example, this book. [amazon.com]) But here's the thing: I am willing to bet that you don't know, either, and that you're talking out of your ass. Put down the Richard Dawkins and try to meet some scientifically-literate Christians, maybe at a church in a university town, or something.
Re:Thought so. (Score:5, Interesting)
Virtually all of the home-schooled kids I know are at least as well educated as their public school counterparts. I know one that finished Calc II while still at home, and he plays the French horn beautifully well. (I haven't heard what college degree he graduated with, but I'd be shocked if he didn't ace it.) But this same kid believes that dinosaurs never existed. He can go forth in this world and will no doubt succeed in any field he chooses. He'd make a fine engineer, or lawyer, or mathematician. He'll probably go on to be a deacon in his church some day. But I also can pretty much guarantee you he won't choose a career in paleontology. And I don't think he'll be teaching biology, geology, or astronomy if he thinks god created the universe 6,000 years ago, because those professions simply wouldn't fit with his worldview. I'm good with that.
While having a religious upbringing may sound like it correlates to success, I'd postulate that the primary reason the kids you and I know who are succeeding is because their parents have cared greatly about their children's success for their entire lives. And I consider home schooling to be prima facie evidence of parents who care. Parents who use the schools as babysitters, as surrogate parents, as the disciplinarians, or to provide their moral compasses, those who abdicate their own responsibilities for raising their children, they're far more likely to have the kids that don't reach their potential. And that comprises a depressingly large percentage of kids.
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I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Yes, of course, "religious" people contribute to scientific discovery, and have throughout history. However, religious people aren't all the same, and the ones who are the bulk of the home-schoolers in this country (USA; note that the original poster is from the UK so a lot of this probably doesn't apply to him, but this discussion has certainly centered on USA-specific stuff) are of a certain group of religious sects that definitely do NOT contribute to sc
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"Creation science" doesn't follow the scientific method. To be scientific, a theory has to be falsifiable. Beliefs in the supernatural aren't.
Re:Thought so. (Score:5, Insightful)
The kid has a much greater chance of being hit by a car than he has of being hurt in a situation that could have been prevented by a "trained responder", yet I'm guessing you wouldn't suggest that the kid never cross a street.
Parents can have all sorts of reasons to want to home school their kids, but "lack of a trained responder" is not one of them.
I coach martial arts in a Chicago inner-city public high school. Way inner city, South Side. This is one of the schools that the political and media class would tell you is "failing" and that it's the fault of the teachers (and some knuckleheads would say there just needs to be more "trained responders"), but I can say without doubt that the hours those kids are in school is by far the safest of their day. I'll bet that even in the most affluent neighborhoods that the hours the kids are in school are going to be the safest of their day.
If you want to home school your kids because you don't want them being exposed to teh gays or because you don't want them learning all that non-biblical so-called "science" that's fine. Go ahead and doom your kid. If you're an "atheist liberal arts majors concerned about the influence of the religious right on curiculum (sic)" first, I would hope that whoever is home schooling you can teach you how to spell "curriculum". But second, I would say that both you and the god-botherer are making a huge mistake. With only a very very small number of exceptions, your kid is a lot better off in school, public or otherwise, than he is being taught by you at the kitchen table.
I have a friend who home-schooled his kid. Both he and his wife have PhDs and even they knew enough to hire tutors for most of the courses. And that was only because the kid had some very specific issues that made it difficult for him to go to school. His parents made it work because they were really really smart and really really rich, and they knew they weren't qualified to teach their kid on their own. (The kid is about to graduate from Northwestern University).
Home schooling is just another aspect of the continual effort to devalue expertise. Today, if you're a scientist you can't possibly know jack-shit about climate change because, hell, you're a scientist, and the man on the radio says that's all baloney. If you're a world renowned economist, you can't know shit because hell, you're a liberal. If you're a college professor, clearly me and momma can do a much better job of educating little Johnny. If you're a journalist, well, everybody knows you don't know anything because you're part of the "mainstream media", so everything in the newspaper is clearly bogus. Once expertise has been sufficiently degraded then you can get people to believe absolutely anything, because everybody knows the only true science is right there in the bible and by the way, I'll explain the bible to you, because if you read it on your own you'll only get the wrong idea. You can tell people anything and they won't be able to tell whether or not it's true. It's the most convenient way to destroy small-d democracy. I'm betting every single one of you can think of ways expertise is being degraded. and it's turning us into a nation of frightened dummies who all think they're smart as hell and by-god they'll be the ones teaching their children how to spell "curiculum" thank you very much.
Idiocracy.
Parents care, school systems don't (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Parents care, school systems don't (Score:5, Insightful)
If all parents cared, school systems could focus on what they are best suited to doing -- educating. School systems "fail" when they have to pick up the slack from parents who won't/can't take responsibility for their own children.
Schools can not effectively manage malnourished, abused, ignored or otherwise un-nurtured children no matter how much they "care". Especially when they are dependent on support for the same people who don't think their kids are worth any investment of money or time in the first place.
I agree that universal (and I'll throw in equal) education is good for society. The question is how to bootstrap this potential good from a society with such perverse priorities.
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Re:Parents care, school systems don't (Score:4, Insightful)
Starts with the parents though. You seem to want to blame the govt.
Re:Parents care, school systems don't (Score:4, Informative)
Creationists don't want to "dumb down" science classes. They want to smarten them up by presenting scientific challenges to current ideas that are held for mostly political/ideological reasons
Not according to the creationists [wikipedia.org]:
According to the Discovery Institute's own internal strategy documents the goal is to defeat science because they think science makes people evil.
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If I have to choose between competence and caring, I'll take competence. The majority of the people you interact with won't care about you at all. It took us quite a bit of socialization, evolution and technological development to get to a point where we don't have to care much at all on a personal level about the people feeding us, supplying us, paying us, healing us, or even educating us. Everyone can benefit from their expertise no matter how much we may not like them as people (or they us). Bypassing pe
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I can see no more good reason to pass up a subsidized education of such quality as we have than I can see good reason to pass up a free mechanic, laundry, or grocer.
If a free mechanic is making your car dangerous to drive, so that it craps out (or worse, explodes) while you're driving on the highway in traffic, then you're better off passing up his services and learning to fix your car yourself.
I believe that, in some areas in the US, the public education offered is definitely much worse than not even being
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For the "good of society," I do like home school. Partly because I believe individual freedoms are important, and partly because I believe it's a good solution if schools are inadequate or downright terrible.
This attitude is antithetical to "society", as I understand the term (granted, I went to public schools). In a society, where common institutions fail, the community organizes to fix them. Education is a common interest, being that the entire community relies on a well-informed populace (partly to understand and take best advantage of individual freedoms/responsibilities).
Parents with a keen interest in teaching beyond the common standards can always do so in their own time. If they have time for one par
Re:Thought so. (Score:4, Funny)
(ending sentences with a proposition included)
There is, of course, no problem in ending a sentence with a preposition in English. A proposition is a different matter; how about we go back to my place.
Homeschooler here (Score:4, Insightful)
I was above average in everything. I scored above the 99th percentile on pretty much anything anyone cared to tell me I needed to learn and then test me on. And I knew the Bible, too.
u mad?
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Far too many parents keep their children out of the school system because of their fears that their little cherub is going to be corrupted, but then neglect to do anything bu
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And I knew the Bible, too.
u mad?
More like disappointed. Despite being atheist, I find the idea of knowing the bible to be wholly inappropriate, especially if it's a library book. It's unsanitary, and it makes the pages stick together.
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Not all home-schooling is for religious reasons. Sometimes it is just because the local school system is failing the kids. Or ins some cases, because the public school is teaching religious theory instead of science.
Re:i have an idea (Score:5, Informative)
As a student of the US education system, I can personally attest to the problems of the public system. I didn't fail any of my classes, perfect attendance for years, and in my senior year I was told I would be there again next year. Turns out those 'qualified educators' scheduled and taught me classes, but not the ones needed to meet state requirements, my parents pulled me out and I finished that year in a private school taking independent study.
Now I have a 8 year old boy who seems fine to me in second grade, that is until the 4th nine weeks and 2 suspensions from school. One for eating his sandwich into the shape of a gun, then later that day making "finger guns", and going "pew pew" like boys do. They said he was threatening the school with violence. Two weeks before he was suspended for "not keeping his hands to himself" I asked the teacher and found out he was trying to play tag at recess.
I have zero tolerance for zero tolerance school policies.
FYI all of this occurred in the Florida, Treasure Coast area.
Re:i have an idea (Score:5, Insightful)
He was improperly advised. Not his fault. Or do you believe that all students should read the educational requirements laws for their state and assume their advisers, the professionals doing that job for money, are incorrect? I'm sorry, but I usually assume that professionals know what they're doing in order to save my sanity.
His eight-year-old should be allowed to be an eight-year-old and his school should be chastised for its foolish zero-tolerance policies. The rampant CYA and zero tolerance are more destructive than that which they attempt to prevent.
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I don't disagree with the zero tolerance policies though. You still have to consider public schools are given conflicting requirements: Educate children and allow them to grow intellectual
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Yeah, when I was in high school I had an adviser. We met with the adviser at the beginning of each school year when selecting classes.
Turns out those 'qualified educators' scheduled and taught me classes, but not the ones needed to meet state requirements.
Sounds like an adviser scheduled his classes and scheduled them inadequately.
What makes you think complaining can't change anything? How do you think things got changed to where finger guns are an actionable offense in the first place?
Re:i have an idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is this rated troll?
If he reads below grade level and none of his current teachers feel qualified to teach him, maybe he should go to school to be taught by qualified folks.
Home schooling should not even be an option if you are not qualified to teach the subjects the child needs or cannot bring in someone else to do so.
Re:i have an idea (Score:5, Insightful)
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As long as you don't make the mistake of living outside one of the civilized zones, you can actually see results pretty similar to the wealthy bits of Europe and even parts of Asia. Certain other states, by consistently achieving results that make you wonder if they are actually telecommuting from some hellish African warzone, really drag us down...
Re:i have an idea (Score:5, Interesting)
If you break the educational results down by state, you will see that yes, yes there are. As long as you don't make the mistake of living outside one of the civilized zones, you can actually see results pretty similar to the wealthy bits of Europe and even parts of Asia. Certain other states, by consistently achieving results that make you wonder if they are actually telecommuting from some hellish African warzone, really drag us down...
In my experience this disparity is spot-on and frighteningly so. I was educated in a cow pasture of a public high school where about a quarter of my graduating class was already at boot camp by graduation and art, music, and science funding were cut before even considering touching football or wrestling. Years later, as a graduate student in Los Angeles, I was involved in various mentoring programs for high school students and teachers. The students from public schools in Santa Monica and the Palisades (i.e., very wealthy areas) were just polishing their resumes before starting at Stanford or Harvard in the Fall. Most of their teachers had PhDs. The teachers that we mentored came instead from the other parts of LA Unified where graduation rates were below 50% and schools spent money on metal detectors and fences. We even had to supply them with the teaching materials for the workshops because it would otherwise have come from their own pockets. Their students' ambitions included staying out of jail and learning to read. And that was just the difference in one county.
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Of course there are. There's numerous private schools you can send your kids to where they don't have to worry much about gangs, violence, armed police arresting them if they have a temper tantrum, etc. Don't expect these places to be cheap, though.
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Correllation is not indicitive of causation.
While there is a strong (oh yes, so very strong) correllation between homeschooling and religious jesus brainwashing camps passing as education, this is not always the case.
In this case, the submitter want to know if there is a way to teach chemistry without putting the kid into an environment that they found to be an epic waste of time.
Here's a winner:
Learn chemistry *with* the child.
The internet is for so much more than seeing angelina joelee's boobs.
As a chemis
Re:Obvious Answer (Score:5, Insightful)
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But this kid can't even read at his age level...
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In the dark ages, to a good approximation, nobody did organic chemistry.
Re:Haven't you forgotten something important here? (Score:4, Interesting)
I haven't forgotten anything.
Here, let me help you.
My brother is extremely dyslexic. Has problems writing his own name. He is quite capable of comprehending complex chemical processes, and has helped me in some personal hobby chemistry more than once, and found it very rewarding.
If the student has an impairment, then the teacher/mentor needs to help that student a little more. That's all it means. It was my understanding from the submitter that the child is not mentally handicapped, merely behind the curve. This is easily correctable with some added effort.
If remedial mathematics and reading comprehension are required, administer accordingly. Don't abandon the student because they fail to meet your expectations.
My brother is by no means a dullard. Can't read or write to save his life, but the core concepts of chemistry are his, and I know that for a fact. Literacy is a gateway to knowledge, most assuredly. It, however, is not the exclusive gateway to knowledge. If you treat it like it is, you aren't a good teacher.
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