Slashdot Asks: Will You Need the Windows XP Black Market? 245
NicknamesAreStupid (1040118) writes "As Whoever57 pointed out, there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP — the 'haves'. However, most will be the 'have nots.' Anytime you have such market imbalance, there is opportunity. Since Microsoft clearly intends to create a disparity, there will certainly be those who defy it. What will Microsoft do to prevent bootleg patches of XP from being sold to the unwashed masses? How will they stop China from supporting 100 million bootleg XP users? And how easily will it be to crack Microsoft's controls? How big will the Windows XP patch market be?"
There are a lot of businesses still on Windows XP; if you work for one of them, will the official end of life spur actually cause you to upgrade? (And if so, to what?)
Editing? Anyone? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Editing? Anyone? (Score:5, Funny)
Editing? Anyone?
There ain't no editors and there never was! Now git!
Re:Editing? Anyone? (Score:4, Funny)
Fuck me, I mercurialed.
That explains so much.
Re:Editing? Anyone? (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously? Nobody even bothered to read the first sentence of the submission?
Apparently lots of people did and are also griping about it. Are Slashdot "editors" capable of feeling embarassment?
Back to the discussion...
Since Microsoft clearly intends to create a disparity, there will certainly be those who defy it. What will Microsoft do to prevent bootleg patches of XP from being sold to the unwashed masses? How will they stop China from supporting 100 million bootleg XP users? And how easily will it be to crack Microsoft's controls? How big will the Windows XP patch market be?
Unless these third-party patch vendors are claiming to be Microsoft then they're not in any way "bootleg". If Microsoft no longer wants to do this but someone else does, what's the problem? How would this be different from (i.e. less legitimate than) publishing a device driver, AV suite, or other system-level software?
Do the submitter and "editor" not understand what the word "bootleg" means, or is there a real problem here I'm just not seeing?
Updates more likely to infringe than drivers, AV (Score:3)
How would [providing third-party updates to Windows XP components] be different from (i.e. less legitimate than) publishing a device driver, AV suite, or other system-level software?
Device drivers, antivirus suites, and the like don't need to replace Windows system files with fixed versions of the same code to function. Windows updates do. And because they'd be providing versions of the same (Microsoft) code without the permission of the owner of copyright in that code, they would likely infringe* Microsoft's copyright.
* Slashdot posts aren't Legal Advice(tm).
Re:Updates more likely to infringe than drivers, A (Score:4, Interesting)
How would [providing third-party updates to Windows XP components] be different from (i.e. less legitimate than) publishing a device driver, AV suite, or other system-level software?
Device drivers, antivirus suites, and the like don't need to replace Windows system files with fixed versions of the same code to function. Windows updates do. And because they'd be providing versions of the same (Microsoft) code without the permission of the owner of copyright in that code, they would likely infringe* Microsoft's copyright.
* Slashdot posts aren't Legal Advice(tm).
It wouldn't be possible to provide only a binary patch that contains just the modifications to said files? That would also infringe copyright?
Apple v. Psystar (Score:2)
It wouldn't be possible to provide only a binary patch that contains just the modifications to said files? That would also infringe copyright?
That depends on how a particular judge decides to apply precedents related to Apple v. Psystar.
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It wouldn't be possible to provide only a binary patch that contains just the modifications to said files? That would also infringe copyright?
That depends on how a particular judge decides to apply precedents related to Apple v. Psystar.
Considering how *ahem* clear and reasonable copyright law has always been, perhaps I can understand why someone might not be eager to do this...
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I'm sure when you signed the legaly binding contract to get the source code that you'd have to have to modify to compile to get the binary patch, their was a clause prohibiting you from distributing any binaries from the source or derivatives of the source.
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I'm sure when you signed the legaly binding contract to get the source code that you'd have to have to modify to compile to get the binary patch, their was a clause prohibiting you from distributing any binaries from the source or derivatives of the source.
You don't need the source code to make a patch for a binary - there are a million cracked computer games out there that were patched by third parties without access to the source.
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"Back to the discussion..."
the summary is -1 flamebait. it's only link is to another slashdot article, and thus all the 'wtf didn't the editors read the link' stuff.
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Never mind the issue of companies using illegally obtained patches they haven't paid a support agreement for (except for perhaps China who don't give a shit), there's also the security issue of obtaining patches from someone other than direct from the vendor. Such a great opportunity to slip in your own code to do interesting t
Already gone to Linux Mint Cinnamon... (Score:5, Insightful)
Application and driver compatibility (Score:2)
Linux Mint Cinnamon [is] closer to XP than Win 8
But how well does Wine run apps that run on Windows XP? Last time I checked, the iTunes Store client ran on Windows XP but not on Wine. And how well does Wine run applications that control expensive-to-replace peripherals with Windows XP drivers? I imagine one would need ReactOS to run those, as among free operating systems, only ReactOS implements enough NT infrastructure to have any chance of running Windows XP drivers.
Re:Application and driver compatibility (Score:5, Informative)
iTunes 11.1.3.8 is listed/rated "Gold" so, yes, iTunes works.
Finally (Score:5, Informative)
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There are no songs available on iTunes that are unavailable elsewhere.
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There are no songs available on iTunes that are unavailable elsewhere.
For viewers in the United States, the lyrics video for "Bück dich" by Rammstein [youtube.com] lists only iTunes. Granted, you can buy the whole album on a shiny disc [amazon.com], or you can break the law [wikipedia.org] and risk getting caught [wikipedia.org]. Which of those is what you meant?
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We were talking about songs and you give an example of a lyrics video.
As I said, there are no songs available on iTunes that are unavailable elsewhere.
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Wait a minute. I'm a little slow on the uptake tonight, but did you actually make an argument that a certain video could only be found on iTunes - nowhere else - and then provide a link to that very video on YouTube?
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And how well does Wine run applications that control expensive-to-replace peripherals
does WINE support the custom driver for a CNC machine that is still in operation? The one off device in some back government office?
That's sort of what I was getting at. Wine can't, seeing as it doesn't aim for driver compatibility. ReactOS has more potential in this department.
Re:Application and driver compatibility (Score:4, Informative)
ReactOS has been in alpha for at least the last 9 years, since I first heard about it.
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Why do you need to "update" the CNC machine's OS? what moron has it on the network with internet access? I know of CNC machines that are running windows 95. and SHOCKER.... they work just fine without any support from microsoft.
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Nope they either run windows 3.1 or windows XP 95% of the time.
(I work with sensor and automation, and have serviced these CNCs)
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Linux has a Dramatically better hardware support than XP,Vista,7 or 8 has combined. Only a fool that knows nothing of linux would ask the "expensive to replace peripherals" raging bullshit line not knowing that linux has such better hardware support than Windows, that many times a device actually works BETTER under linux.
But don't let facts like that slow down your bullshit tirade.... please continue... I so would love to hear more of your "superior race" Mein Furor... We all know that you are too stupid
Better for some, perhaps most, but not all (Score:5, Informative)
Linux has a Dramatically better hardware support than XP,Vista,7 or 8 has combined.
Dramatically better on the whole? Perhaps. Better for every particular device? Not necessarily. There are probably plenty of edge cases that have an XP driver and no Linux driver at all. Does SANE support the Microtek ScanMaker 4850 flatbed scanner yet? It appears not [sane-project.org].
Re:Application and driver compatibility (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you actually have experience or are you just making things up? Are are you willing to both write a driver and port the software for me that controls a chemistry instrument that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, uses some proprietary PCI card (or worse yet, ISA)? The instrument runs absolutely fine now, and will for years (I managed one instrument controlled by a Mac from the mid 80s), but would either cost a lot to upgrade to Windows 7, or require a new instrument. Instrumentation companies are like this. They do operate stupidly, are stuck in the 80s, and I'd love to smack them, but like it or not, in vertical industries, the choices are few and far between, and *very* expensive.
So what do you do? The hard part is some of these instruments generate a lot of data and require access to network servers. Dedicated, firewalled LANs will suffice here. Windows XP is going to be running for another ten years or more.
The whole problem revolves around the fact that in many industries computers are treated as "hardware" not "software." I mean you only replace a pump's pressure switch when it fails. We in the computer industry have been successful in pushing our technology into all kinds of places where it's invisible and just seen as a "controller" or a "switch" and treated as such. And it's not entirely the fault of the users of these devices either. The thought of securing and updating the firmware on these devices has really only been something anyone worried about recently. When was the last time you did a firmware update to your lawn sprinkler controller? Add internet capabilities to it, and suddenly it's a security hole requiring weekly software updates. How does this relate to XP? Well for a lot of people and industries, their instruments and devices are in their mind much like the sprinkler controller in your garage. They are just tools and they don't think about the software security, updates, EOL, etc. They've never had to before. It's a brave new world we've started, and this Windows XP EOL issue is just the beginning of our problems with this new "internet of things" idea. Which is brilliant, but fraught with all kinds of danger.
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What was the plan for fixing the Mac from the 80s if it broke? I wouldn't want to risk a multi-million dollar operation on being able to find an old mac for sale on ebay. You'd have to really hope that the installer floppies were sufficiently backed up and that you could find a floppy drive from that era that didn't have too much dust in it to function.
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Linux has a Dramatically better hardware support than XP,Vista,7 or 8 has combined. Only a fool that knows nothing of linux would ask the "expensive to replace peripherals" raging bullshit line not knowing that linux has such better hardware support than Windows, that many times a device actually works BETTER under linux.
Yeah, like the $140,000 3-axis contact lens lathe at the lab at work that uses a pair of ISA interface cards to control it, running XP. I just know some linux hobbyiest teenager in his bas
Re:Already gone to Linux Mint Cinnamon... (Score:5, Informative)
Set up a "multimedia desktop" for my parents in their lounge. The desktop startup/response time of the OS is orders of magnitude faster than any other computer in our family and yet it is on the oldest and slowest hardware. Anything higher than windows XP ran like an absolute dog on this machine - in fact not really usable at all due to lack of memory etc.
Since it is only used for browsing and multimedia they don't even notice the subtle differences.
The fact that they are complete computer novices who would never try to tinker with any admin options actually works in their favour. Most of the apps use are essentially"platforms" in that the software works the same on both OS's.
Installation was also stupidly easy. The apps were free.
Pretty much the only "negative" was that I had to google some alternative apps for the ones I would use on windows as there was not a linux version - and that's just being picky.
This wont be the solution for everyone (due to app support etc) but I seriously suggest it to anyone with an XP machine that does not want to hope on the M$ upgrade train just for the sake of it.
I think this option will be overlooked by many due to historical difficulties - that PR baggage is hard to shake it seems.
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Set up a "multimedia desktop" for my parents in their lounge. The desktop startup/response time of the OS is orders of magnitude faster than any other computer in our family and yet it is on the oldest and slowest hardware.
I think that's one of the problems that Windows has. You were able to setup a specific device for a specific purpose. If there's anything not related to "multimedia desktop" you made sure it wasn't part of the device. If your parents try to do anything on that computer and they can't they'll just say "Well, this device wasn't made to do this". But with a Windows computer, everyone expects it to do something different. Windows has to deal with a really large baseline of functionality because it's expected to
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There is hardly any learning curve required to go from XP to Mint. Everything works pretty much right out of the box. Getting wireless up was easy and I had my printer and scanner up and running in 15 minutes after a brief search for drivers. I was pretty much back to business as usual on my netbook about 30 minutes after overwriting XP with Mint. LibreOffice wor
Re-buying hardware (Score:2)
I had my printer and scanner up and running in 15 minutes after a brief search for drivers.
I got printing and scanning working on Linux, but I needed to replace my existing printer and scanner with an HP Officejet 4500 because the page for my old scanner on the SANE project's web site had said "unsupported" for years. It must be even worse for companies that will need to replace a multi-thousand-dollar CNC mill. They'll probably just need to air gap the machine that controls it and continue to run unsupported XP.
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With all due respect, "looks and feels like XP" only gets you so far. If you're a home user, that's fine as long as you don't want to play PC games, or use most Windows software like Quickbooks. If you're an office user, that's fine as long as you don't need to continue to run Visual Basic 6 (yes, really) for critical business applications.
Where I work, we need to run legacy apps for the foreseeable future. So we're migrating, somewhat painfully, to Windows 7. Sure, there's plenty of Linux that can do 90% o
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What percentage of what you need to do does Windows 7 allow? Is it easier getting that last 10 % working on Windows 7 or would it be easier to re-write for Linux. I'm guessing the former, but it depends on the complexity of your apps. Starting any one from scratch would be a bitch, unless Windows 7 is forcing this as well.
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Yes I did the same for my parents, who were stressed about doing stuff like online banking on an XP machine after support ended. Installation was a breeze, everything looked perfect, amazing OS. It put itself nicely next to the existing XP installation, just in case they really didn't like it. Good to go, but...
Then the little annoyances started: Caps lock doesn't behave like it should (not a US qwerty keyboard), everything is a mix between English and our local language, the included firefox doesn't play n
How much does it cost to upgrade? (Score:4, Interesting)
If UK govt paid $9M for 12 months, how much does it cost to upgrade 680,000 PC's? A lot of them will probably need new hardware.
At a pure guess of $500 per PC, including new Office licenses, some new hardware, labour, etc. over 12 months, $9M is only 3% of the total cost. They could invest the upgrade money and make a profit from buying extended support.
Re:How much does it cost to upgrade? (Score:5, Informative)
It costs a lot more than a new PC to upgrade thousands of PCs. Imaging, deployment, backup/restore processes for the end users is just the beginning. Upgrading dozens, hundreds, or thousands of individual customized applications to be compatible with Windows 7 is an absolute nightmare. I know all about this just from upgrading my relatively small workplace from XP to 7. It was a fight just to get core, mission critical apps to work with IE 9; 10 and 11 are out of the question. Lots of cash to vendors and app support folks, lots of cash to deployment specialists, lots of overtime. Adds up to a LOT of money.
By the way: $9 million over 680,000 PCs is $13 per PC. That's less than we paid per PC to have a contractor come in and physically install new machines at desks, and completely ignores the cost of OS licensing, hardware, support, and the thousands and thousands of man hours the IT department spent with associated tasks.
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It was a fight just to get core, mission critical apps to work with IE 9; 10 and 11 are out of the question.
Sounds like time to bite the bullet and write them to use web standards for the user interface (this is obviously a web-app as you use a browser for access - so if you're doing anything more than displaying a user interface and maybe some basic input sanity checking and you're doing something wrong to begin with). As an added bonus this will relieve you of your dependency on IE and Windows, and it would even work on non-Windows systems such as most tablets.
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I can count by the way. The $500 per pc at 680,000 pc's equals $340M. $9M is 2.65% of that.
If you had $340M for an upgrade, you could instead invest $331M of that over 12 months and make more than $9M profit (lets say you made 5%...), hence my assertion that paying for support can make you money (which at 5% would be over $16M profit)
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It costs a lot more than a new PC to upgrade thousands of PCs
Exactly. This is something I've seen small business struggle with, often taking the form of "But I could have bought a new PC for that much!" complaint after their vital not-backed-up business data has been recovered from a dead hard drive.
(there are many solutions to the above example, I'm using it illustratively)
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That $9M also gets them support for Microsoft Office and Exchange 2003, which I doubt would be covered by Windows Embedded.
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And some software may not even run on newer versions.. if they are custom apps they could run in the millions themselves to 'fix'...
I wonder . . . (Score:2)
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Activation is not support.
Running XP on several machines now (Score:4, Interesting)
What will I do? Probably keep working from a known image and patch it up as best I can.
In other words, the same thing I've done with legacy DOS, 95, Novell, 98 and 2k systems.
My hope is that at some point I can find a low-overhead Linux or BSD system to use as a VM host, and then have access to every operating system since the dawn of the 4004.
Went to Windows 7 (Score:3)
XP users don't care (Score:5, Insightful)
Nobody in their right mind is going to resort to the black market for XP support for a business -- it'd be like *inviting* the crackers into your network.
Home users either won't know how or won't care to bother. Most people I know who are still running XP have been virus-infected for months or even years. As long as it lets them play YouTubes, check their gMail, and surf Crackbook they just flat out don't *care* that the machine is infected.
Hell, most of them don't even realize the adware popups they keep seeing are due to an *infection*, not "bad behaviour" on the part of the aforementioned websites. One fellow I knew used to complain about the "popups from YouTube" all the time, 'cause all he ever did was YouTube and Crackbook. As far as he was concerned, it was YouTube that was putting up all the porn ads.
Why Should I Upgrade? (Score:2)
Yes, I'm going to have to take care to stop being infected by malware. Good anti-virus, good firewall, Chrome browser, safe surfing habits, care with email.
If you would like a similar analogy people drive old cars with
If Chrome and AV on XP go away (Score:2)
The only circumstances in which I would upgrade is [...] the data I process (documents, music, video) have no applications I can use on XP. [...] Yes, I'm going to have to take care to stop being infected by malware. Good anti-virus [...] Chrome browser
So long as Google and the publishers of "good anti-virus" continue to support Windows XP. Otherwise, "the data [you] process" (virus definitions and HTML documents) would "have no applications [you] can use on XP". Support for Chrome on Windows XP will continue longer, possibly as a side effect of support on Windows Server 2003, but even that's going away in a year [blogspot.com].
good firewall
If security researchers (wearing any color hat) exploit a defect in the TCP/IP stack of Windows XP, a firewall running on Windows XP is unlikely
You use the Internet (Score:3)
It's not a matter if if, it's when. Which is why I'm posting from Win 7 today
Legacy Software Limitations (Score:3, Interesting)
Arduino it (Score:2)
Then we run into the damn hardware problem I still can't find a serial to usb adapter that runs across at 1200 baud.
Couldn't you make such an adapter out of a microcontroller like the one in an Arduino kit?
Serial to Ethernet converter... (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
For those who really need it: (Score:2)
Most of them can solate the XP machines in a private network, very much like i isolated the Windows98 machines (Thanks, Tektronix) a few years back.
completely wrong (Score:2)
Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
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By that definition Windows XP is itself a huge piece of malware that needs to be constantly rid of the numerous bugs and defects. It has been for the past 10 years thus, and still not fully fixed.
That makes MS an untrustworthy source of poor quality software, or intentionally buggy software aka malware.
Black market? (Score:2)
Its not a black market if 3rd party companies decide to continue support XP.
Move On.. (Score:2)
Any competent admin would have started a migration to win7 a long time ago. Short of industrial use (e.g. a computer that controls machinery) there's little incentive to stick with xp. Patches to the OS are going to be of limited value for industrial applications anyway, as
What about a law (Score:2)
It will finally happen! (Score:4, Funny)
The year of the Linux desktop is finally here!
Re:second editor fail in less than 24 hours (Score:4, Insightful)
what on earth does that sentence mean?
What do you mean what on earth does that sentence mean what on earth does that sentence mean - the haves?
Re:second editor fail in less than 24 hours (Score:4, Funny)
Re:second editor fail in less than 24 hours (Score:5, Insightful)
"As Whoever57 pointed out, there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP pointed out, there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP — the 'haves'
what on earth does that sentence mean? this is even worse than Timothy's earlier oversight of re-running the same article less than a week after its first run. we know slashdot doesn't pay editors to edit, but could they at least show enough pride in their job to read what they post?
This kind of poor quality work is what long ago dissuaded me from ever paying for a Slashdot subscription. I block ads, too, since before my karma level gave me the option of having Slashdot do it for me. That was all before Malda sold out to Dice Holdings. It's not improved since.
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You don't pay for a subscription to reward the editors. You do it because occasionally someone will say something so insightful you want to review everything else he's ever written here.
But your payment does reward the company and its staff. There is no way around that. They don't deserve it, their shoddy work hasn't earned it, and no fringe benefit of extra database access is enough to convince me otherwise.
Your value system may vary. I for one was speaking for myself.
A Terrific Opportunity (Score:3)
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Most malware likes to patch the whole it got in through if only to reduce competion and preserve it's enviroment.
Re:A Terrific Opportunity (Score:4, Informative)
Mind installing Windows XP sans SP and connect it to the internet? I'd like to know whether Sasser is still alive and kicking, and I can't be assed to try it myself. Back in '07, the time from connect to infect was 30 seconds, but I am sure it went down since.
Re:NO (Score:5, Funny)
Yes hello, I'm trying to search for a pirate's favourite letter, but nothing's coming up under 'R'.
Yad think it's R but it's really the C.
Re:NO (Score:5, Funny)
Good day Cryacin, my name is John. I'm calling from Windows Service Center to talk to you about a problem with your Windows computer.
I beg your pardon sir?
No, I'm calling from Windows Service Center. We often call Windows users who have Windows computers that have been infect...
No, we are not within cannon range of your "ship"!
Sir, are you sitting in front of your Windows computer right now? It is urgent that you solve your malicious software infection urgently. Can you see a key on your keyboard with a Windows icon on it?
*Sound of distant thunder*
*Sound of glass shattering*
*Sound of wall collapsing*
Sir, we need to speed this up. Just Google "team viewer" and install it on your Windo...
*Sound of screams and cutlasses striking against metal*
Sir, I'm going to have to call you ba.....
*Static*
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As Whoever57 pointed out, there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP pointed out, there are some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP pointed out.
Pointed out some who will still get support for Microsoft Windows XP pointed out.
Found the [CTL] V key, did ya?
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Re:NO (Score:5, Interesting)
Use != modification (Score:5, Informative)
It clearly states that anyone supporting XP after Microsoft disowns to OS is a 'CRIMINAL'.
Under current copyright law, Microsoft could make a good faith case that anybody else providing modifications to its copyrighted operating systems is committing criminal infringement of copyright. I don't see how stating a reasonable interpretation of current law is "propaganda".
Actually, as tested in EU courts
Slashdot is subject to the jurisdiction of US courts, not EU courts.
you are just as entitled to use it with or without the official support of the original manufacturing company.
Using it doesn't include modifying it, which is what third parties providing support would have to do in order to let their clients keep using it without known security holes. And there's precedent against that: Apple successfully sued in the United States a company that was selling PCs along with the patch to run OS X on them. Put Apple v. Psystar in your favorite web search engine.
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Under current copyright law, Microsoft could make a good faith case
Ever heard of software "clean rooms"? - If a thousand monkeys did actually manage to recreate the windows source code they would not be infringing copyright, monkeys can't read so obviously they cannot be guilty of copying anything belonging to MS.
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Slashdot is subject to the jurisdiction of US courts, not EU courts.
you are just as entitled to use it with or without the official support of the original manufacturing company.
Using it doesn't include modifying it
So all those students in US college adding notes to their text books, crossing out bits, etc - thereby modifying the book, which is presumably falling under copyright - are all breaking the law? Time to go after them!
And if you don't agree this is illegal, why would it be different to modify the software you run?
The facts differ (Score:2)
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The professor is addressing his students on a professional basis - he's getting paid for it - so there's clearly financial gain in play.
In his teaching he points out additions to the text, possible omissions, insights that have changed since the printing of the book (e.g. Pluto is not a planet any more). He gives the students the patches (bits of information) to add to their text books ("cross out 'nine', replace by 'eight'; cross out 'Pluto' from the list of planets and add it to a new category called 'dwa
Licensed, not sold (Score:2)
The fact that one is done by computer, the other by hand, shouldn't change anything.
Shouldn't but does. The outer packaging of copies of Microsoft PC software states that the software is licensed, not sold, under terms set forth at a particular URL. The prospective "buyer" is expected to view these terms on an Internet terminal inside the store. And if a work is licensed, not sold, even copying the program from the hard disk into RAM to run it appears to require Microsoft's permission because the defense under 17 USC 117(a)(1) is available only to the owner of a copy, not a licensee. Prece
My clean PC runs Xfce (Score:2)
F the Linux developer community for going down the same path at the same time as Metro
What "same path as Metro"? I don't see "modern" tiley garbage on my copy of Xubuntu. Its user interface behaves more like Windows 2000/XP than Windows 8 without Classic Shell does.
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Obviously, yours wasn't the Linux developer community he was specifically referring to.
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Not every story is about an imagined divide. Some have an imagined divide whereas others do not.
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Damn. I'm fresh out of mod points. :^)
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The hardware gives up its ghost.
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Nice straw man. Thirty two bit software runs fine on 64 bit OSes these days for the most part. You're comparing apples and rocks, not even apples and oranges.
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If I could tell that to your work I would, because that's the result of bad management and nothing else. There's been ample time to plan upgrades. I feel for you, but I would suggest you start looking for a new job if the place you work for is so poorly managed.