Ask Slashdot: How Should a Liberal Arts Major Get Into STEM? 280
An anonymous reader writes: I graduated with a degree in the liberal arts (English) in 2010 after having transferred from a Microbiology program (not for lack of ability, but for an enlightening class wherein we read Portrait of the Artist). Now, a couple years on, I'm 25, and though I very much appreciate my education for having taught me a great deal about abstraction, critical thinking, research, communication, and cheesily enough, humanity, I realize that I should have stuck with the STEM field. I've found that the jobs available to me are not exactly up my alley, and that I can better impact the world, and make myself happier, doing something STEM-related (preferably within the space industry — so not really something that's easy to just jump into). With a decent amount of student debt already amassed, how can I best break into the STEM world? I'm already taking online courses where I can, and enjoy doing entry-level programming, maths, etc.
Should I continue picking things up where and when I can? Would it be wiser for me to go deeper into debt and get a second undergrad degree? Or should I try to go into grad school after doing some of my own studying up? Would the military be a better choice? Would it behoove me to just start trying to find STEM jobs and learn on the go (I know many times experience speaks louder to employers than a college degree might)? Or perhaps I should find a non-STEM job with a company that would allow me to transfer into that company's STEM work? I'd be particularly interested in hearing from people who have been in my position and from employers who have experience with employees who were in my position, but any insight would be welcome.
Should I continue picking things up where and when I can? Would it be wiser for me to go deeper into debt and get a second undergrad degree? Or should I try to go into grad school after doing some of my own studying up? Would the military be a better choice? Would it behoove me to just start trying to find STEM jobs and learn on the go (I know many times experience speaks louder to employers than a college degree might)? Or perhaps I should find a non-STEM job with a company that would allow me to transfer into that company's STEM work? I'd be particularly interested in hearing from people who have been in my position and from employers who have experience with employees who were in my position, but any insight would be welcome.
Hmmmmm. Interesting decision history... (Score:2)
I graduated with a degree in the liberal arts (English) in 2010 after having transferred from a Microbiology program (not for lack of ability ) ...
Wow. Just wow.
Well, *in my opinion* unless you go back for another degree (and even then), you will need at least something to show some level of skill.
Perhaps work on an Open Source project?
Re:Hmmmmm. Interesting decision history... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, Microbiology to English to "STEM of some kind." Not a good sign of ability to actually follow through with anything or act decisively.
So, here's my advice, if there is something specific you wish you were doing, start doing it. Maybe by going for a degree, maybe by joining some freelance group (like the OSS suggestion).
If there is nothing specific you'd rather be doing, but you aren't happy with what you are doing now, check a psychologist, you might be showing some very mild symptoms of pending clinical depression. Even in the likely case that there is nothing explicitly wrong with you, they might be able to point you to a better "what should I be doing" test than the lame 12-question ones on Facebook. Once you have a goal in mind, you can get more useful advice about how to get there.
Re:Hmmmmm. Interesting decision history... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah it's kind of actually BS that students with degrees are given a fair shake while people without degrees are shafted for programming jobs. It should be taken on merit. Why would an employer want to turn down a self-motivated candidate that spent his weekends reading documentation with a portfolio full of projects for a fresh out of college kid who spent his weekends getting drunk with a small portfolio of school projects?
Re:Hmmmmm. Interesting decision history... (Score:5, Insightful)
Because you have to prove merit. A degree proves that you've studied the field for 4 years. A lack of degree show absolutely nothing. Thus to have equivalent background you have to show much more.
Now we have a pile of resumes. 50% of them have a college degree, thus 4 years studying the field. 50% do not (and don't have at least 4 years in the field professionally). I'm throwing out the 50% without a degree because the signal to noise ratio is too low. Will I throw out a few good hires? Maybe. But I'll throw out a lot of bad ones, and that's more important.
THat doesn't even get into the fact that school teaches different things. School teaches theory. The vast majority of self-taught programmers without a degree that I've seen are very weak on theory. They can maybe throw some libraries together, but they don't understand how to actually solve hard CS problems and couldn't explain basic concepts, causing their designs to have massive flaws. Many of them even take pride in this, their entire attitude being that they didn't need that "academic BS". These kinds of programmers tend to cost time and effort in the long run. So yeah, I'd rather have the degree and someone taught the theories behind everything than someone who thinks reading documentation on weekends will make him a good programmer. SO yeah, no degree means you better have a LOT of experience to even things out. I'm not going to hire you as anything but a web monkey if you have less than a decade.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Hmmmmm. Interesting decision history... (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it absolutely won't. First off- drop the idiotic lingo. All it does is make you look like a tool. Secondly- the "rockstar" tends to have a degree. That's part of why he's so good, he's studied the foundation of his craft and understand the costs and benefits of different approaches. Once again, someone with a degree is far more likely to be able to do that then one without.
Secondly, when looking for high impact workers- the things you want don't correlate to no degree. What you want is hard working, creative, a willingness to step up and take ownership, and high intelligence. Lacking a degree means he's not likely to be hard working, he wasn't willing to put in the work to go to college. It means he wasn't willing to take ownership of his own career path. And it means he was either too stupid to get into college, or too stupid to see the benefits of it. The only one you might get is creative because he "went a different way"- but he did so without thought or a good reason for doing so, which again isn't what you want.
So yeah, the non-degree holder loses again. THere's a few exceptions (although only 1 I've ever met and he had 3 years of college before quitting for health reasons and needing cash too much to return), but I'm happy to miss out on them- a given engineer is more likely to be high impact with a degree than without, so again I'm using it as a good first screen to weed out the 90%+ who are useless in that category.
Now I have found some good engineers with alternative STEM degrees and a passion for coding- physics, EE, comp eng, mech end, etc. But you have to carefully screen to see if they actually know what they should, I would expect their math to be on par (or better), but not necessarily their knowledge of CS concepts.
Re: (Score:2)
Your absolutely right that "hard working, creative, a willingness to step up and take ownership, and high intelligence" is what you want and it's true that the vast majority of the candidates without the degree will not have those traits. Unfortunately, a degree is not a good indicator that they have those traits either.
I've hired and worked with a good number of people over the years that legitimately qualify as a tech "superstar". About 25% had no four year degree and another 25% had a non-technical degre
Re:Hmmmmm. Interesting decision history... (Score:5, Insightful)
True, a degree doesn't mean they have those traits. But this is where conditional probability comes into play. More people with the degree will fall into this category than those without, because the degree gives them the knowledge to wield those traits effectively. That means that when looking at a resume, you're more likely to get a good hire from one with a degree than without. And several of those traits are positively associated with a degree. Additionally, the floor is higher- while even those with a degree can be a bad hire, a mistake is more likely to be a mediocre worker than a bad one. So you minimize your risks and maximize your potential gains by just dropping the other pile, looking for diamonds in the rough isn't worth the time and money. Especially since the type of person you're discussing won't be easily discernible from a resume, you're looking at phone or in person interviews at much higher cost/effort to have a chance.
One exception I would make is with a personal testimonial of the non-degreed dev's skill by a developer I trust. But you're looking at corner cases there.
Re: (Score:2)
The corner cases are what make you rich. Thats why playing the odds is, as I said originally, not what you want to to do when your goal is to find truly exceptional people.
Re: (Score:2)
I could have saved the money and time just kicking it at home reading the book and doing the actual certification tests a
Re: (Score:2)
Why would an employer want to turn down a self-motivated candidate that spent his weekends reading documentation with a portfolio full of projects for a fresh out of college kid who spent his weekends getting drunk with a small portfolio of school projects?
The employer will turn down the self-motivated candidate whenever the employer needs a new drinking buddy.
People without degrees tend to lack the vocabulary (Score:3)
People without CS degrees tend to lack the vocabulary necessary to communicate efficiently with their peers about CS topics in situations where they are required to work on a team. Big "O" notation, names of algorithms, breadth of algorithmic knowledge, etc..
If you are not going to be working on a team (and it's the rare company who does not believe they will become larger in the future), then a portfolio of previous work is generally acceptable.
Because companies believe they will grow, you are most suited
Re:Hmmmmm. Interesting decision history... (Score:5, Insightful)
None proves it, but the question was how to break in to the field, this implies an interest in being successful in the field, not cheating your way to a diploma. There are many STEM careers that are hard or impossible to get in to without going back to school and getting the specialized degree. EE, CompE, Chemical engineering are all tough to break in to on your own. You could of course read a lot of books, but it's probably tough and you're unlikely able to get the kind of focus you need on the areas you will use on your specialization. A dirty secret is perhaps that if you go to school for say EE and you study RF, you may have a very hard time breaking in to computer engineering later, or even the much more closely related power systems. These areas end up being super specialized and your school+work experience ends up binning you into your niche. Later in life your "experience" is expected to be pretty fine grained and deep, so the breadth that's frequently touted as an advantage for liberal arts is actually a drawback for STEM fields outside of academia.
The trick is getting past the resume screen, that's tough to do without the degree in the first place. Then once you do, prepare for an 8 hour long interview that is going to make many PhD defenses seem trivial. There's no risk taking in the hiring process, they will be looking for you to demonstrate a large set of active knowledge on the spot. If you make it through there, be prepared to be learning hte rest of your life and never let yourself get comfortable. The fields change fast, your niche may disappear or more likely be outsourced, so you want to be able to shift focus believably and keep your eyes on trends.
In theory some software programming jobs are easier and don't necessarily require a degree, but I would absolutely be prepared to demonstrate expert knowledge on the language they use (exclusively C in my line of work) and if you're in to systems programming you better know hardware really well too. A CS degree really only helps with the social factor, even if you already know how to code well and have some documented experience on open source.
None of what I said sounds like it should be the case, but it absolutely is. It strikes me that degrees are being used as professional training program (ex. med school, law school) not for general education, as they should be.
been there, done that (Score:5, Insightful)
Have an English degree, found it useless. went back got my BSEE, been employed as such ever since. short version, go back and get your degree.
Re: (Score:2)
besides teaching college which will probably involve a graduate degree, most of thejobs with a liberal arts degree involve asking "Do you want fries with that?"
Re:been there, done that (Score:4, Funny)
I second this comment. besides teaching college which will probably involve a graduate degree, most of thejobs with a liberal arts degree involve asking "Do you want fries with that?"
Two things:
First - I supported myself for a decade working in bars and restaurants. There are more interesting people living interesting lives employed in that sector than just about any other.
Second - Ridley Scott went to art college. Peter Jackson was self-taught. James Cameron was a truck driver. The people who have done more to shape your vision than you're likely able to realise followed no discernible pattern of behaviour. I'd advise you to save your derision until someone's earned it.
Case in point: One 'liberal arts' friend of mine plays the king of the White Walkers on GoT. Another works on The Daily Show. How's your job look now, keyboard monkey?
Re:been there, done that (Score:5, Insightful)
This is like advising him to stop taking classes and put all his money into lottery tickets because Gloria MacKenzie won $370 million in Powerball. The number of people who get to be Peter Jackson is such a vanishingly small slice of the human population that using his success as the basis for your career path is ridiculous.
Re: (Score:3)
Case in point: One 'liberal arts' friend of mine plays the king of the White Walkers on GoT. Another works on The Daily Show. How's your job look now, keyboard monkey?
Pretty darn good.
You have one friend who plays a minor, non-speaking role in a popular TV series. How much did that net him, and how long is that job likely to last before his out looking for another one? You have another friend who "works" on The Daily Show. That could range from really impressive (he hosts it) to the rather unimpressive (he cleans up the studio after everyone's left).
I guess if you get your job satisfaction from tossing around the names of well-known TV shows, that's a good gig. I prefer
Re: (Score:2)
How's your job look now, keyboard monkey?
Considering I (and most other people here) have neither acting nor comedic talent, still pretty damn good. Especially since everybody wants talented programmers, I know I don't have to be waiting tables or doing odd jobs in between gigs, because there wouldn't be any time in between gigs, and even if there were, it'd be on my terms like a sabbatical.
Now, if I wasn't particularly good at programming, I'd probably be a bit more nervous. But because I got into a field I'm good at (and consequently enjoy doing)
Re: (Score:3)
You're not a liberal arts major, by any chance, are you? 'Cuz one thing STEM tries to do is kill the belief that an anecdote counters data.
Why yes, I am a liberal arts major, who studied classical logic, among other things. I was responding to the assertion that 'most' liberal arts majors ended up as lowly restaurant workers. I countered that by asserting a) that restaurant workers are not so lowly as characterised; b) that drawing general conclusions about people's prospects based on their education does not bear out, particularly where some of the more respected and influential jobs are concerned; and c) that in a number of cases, a liberal
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
The is probably next to zero overlap I bet.
Re:been there, done that (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
This. If you can convince some tech company to hire you as a technical writer you'd not only be able to learn a different field as you work, you'd be doing the entire industry a favor since good documentation is teetering on becoming a lost art.
Of course the pay might not be especially great.
Re:been there, done that (Score:4, Informative)
I work for an aerospace cabin integrator and we're always looking for good TechPubs people. My company offers fully paid classes within our field. The great thing is that the TechPubs folks work hand in hand with the engineers. You can talk with them and figure what type of engineering work you want to do, stress, electrical, structures, flam, systems, furniture... and we just touch the inside of an airliner.
Email me if you live in the Puget Sound area.
Re: (Score:2)
Gen ed courses, usually the first 2 years of any 4 year degree
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
You'd be surprised. I have a BA in International Studies and am going back for a BS in Computer Science right now. Aside from needing one more lab science credit and needing to ramp up to Calculus 1 so I can get into the meat of the CS program, basically my entire collection of general education credits applied. I'm jumping right into the major and have four or five semesters' total of work to do.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Your analogy is badly flawed. "Orthopedic Surgeon" in not a degree. It is a medical specialty for someone who has an MD ( though it's possible to do it with other doctorates ). It's absolutely possible your Chiropractor and your Orthopedic Surgeon to have the same undergraduate degree.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
One option is to take what little STEM experience /knowledge from your aborted microbiology, and try and get a technician job in the field you want. Space, or more likely microbiology or some bio-med technician job.
If you shop wisely, you might find an employer that will give tuition benefits and fund your technical education.
I did that years ago, maybe it is tougher now with fewer companies offering tuition benefits.
Companies paid for my BS in chem and an engineering masters. Of course working full time
Re: (Score:3)
Mod parent AC up.
Some of the best IT workers I've known were originally English majors. A STEM worker that doesn't communicate well can be just as bad or worse than a less-technical worker with some decent collaboration skills.
So you have a BA degree... Use it to get a technical writing or training job in some field you would enjoy. Then use the tuition benefits / training provided by your employer to get a BS / MS in something. From there you'll be able land a whole bunch more jobs that require a techn
Re: (Score:2)
Have an English degree, found it useless. went back got my BSEE, been employed as such ever since. short version, go back and get your degree.
Did a double major in Theatre and English Literature. After 20 years of gainful employment in systems software development and consulting, I'm now CTO at an international think tank. I also know the value of capitalisation and punctuation.
Short version: It's horses for courses; reflect carefully, then do what you feel is best. If you're smart, the real determining factor is how hard you're willing to work, and how well you continue to learn.
Do It On The Cheap (Score:3, Informative)
I would highly recommend you take as much as possible at community colleges, paying as you go. The universities in my state (New Mexico) accept community college credits very, very well. Slightly before you've exhausted the community college course load, apply to, and get accepted into, a bachelor's program in some sort of engineering (not all science degrees are equally marketable.) After you're accepted, and have completed a year or two's worth of marketable engineering courses at the community college, you should be able to get an engineering internship and continue to pay cash for classes. These student, engineering, jobs (in my state) pay more than English degree professional jobs do. I've seen this approach work with computer science students.
My state has extremely inexpensive, or free, tuition for residents and access to a huge amount of engineering resources (two national labs + tons of military bases + the initial stages of a tech start up scene) as well as dirt cheap cost of living. I realize this approach might not work well in other states, but that's the approach I talk with people about. I'm working with a guy that studied music, but is getting into web development. His goal is to get accepted into a master's program, and spend an extra 2-3 semesters in it taking undergrad courses. If he can get funding (as a research assistant, or teaching assistant) that will be a great approach too.
STEM is a wide field... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3)
I know several people with English degrees that got into technical writing jobs at engineering companies. They took advantage of the 100% tuition reimbursement offered by the company to get a second degree in comp sci or engineering and went on to become successful programmers/engineers. It was a lot of work to have a full time job and take classes but they did it and they didn't have to go deeper in debt while doing it.
Start a STEM topic (Score:3)
The solution is simple. Study a STEM topic at a real university. If you live in the US you also need proper funding. In many EU countries you could just enroll. And starting studying with 25 is not too late at all. You could still finish MSc in 5 years.
Ph.D. Program? (Score:2)
You might consider a Ph.D. program. If your grades are good and you have the basics, and you can tell the department a good story, you can get admitted and get funding in many STEM disciplines.
You'll have to spend a long time getting your Ph.D., but if it's what you want to do, it may be worth it. You should probably choose a program that grants a Master's along the way so that if you don't finish, you'll have something to show for your time.
Re: (Score:2)
Absolutely. And definitely either go to a program that grants a masters or offers that as an out.
You might also have to do it the other way and get the Master's and then if it really excites you get a PhD. At least some Masters programs offer TAships which will cover much of your costs and more so in STEM fields, but it will really depend on the program and your field of study.
The key issue will be that many graduate programs in STEM have some requirement of a degree in a STEM field, though not all.
I'd f
Re: (Score:2)
If you're looking at going this route I can make a few suggestions. I did something similar.*
First, off, the breakdown is something like: just take classes as a post-baccalaureate, either towards a degree or not / go to grad school (and if you do go to grad school a PhD program is more likely to be funded, even if you leave early with a masters. Do not pay for a stem PhD yourself. It's wrong.)
So, when I started looking into heading back, possibly to grad school, I did two things: First, I contacted a few po
Re: (Score:2)
*laughs*
Well, it does depends on where you want to be hirable. PhDs have extremely low unemployment rates. And if a place thinks you'll be bored there? Hey, maybe that's a good thing to know! ('Course, I like running my own lab.)
Graduate School (Score:5, Insightful)
If you find a professor that you like and likes you, you can get a graduate degree without new debt, and folks won't care what your undergraduate degree is in once you have an appropriate graduate degree.
The choice of professor is critical for you for several reasons:
1. You need someone in the department to help get you accepted despite your out of area undergrad degree
2. You will be doing what your professor wants with most of your time- so choose wisely
3. You are going to need good advice on which classes are critical to actually take to fill in your knowledge gaps vs which ones you can pick up relevant material quickly on your own.
4. A good professor will have research or teaching funding to pay you while you're spending your time doing what they tell you to.
5. A good professor has connections that will help you find a job after your degree.
Re: (Score:2)
Do you want to do STEM stuff or get a STEM job (Score:2)
STEM is a very broad thing - science, engineering, math - so what is your specific interest anyway?
Truthfully if you want a job in STEM, you NEED to go back and get a STEM degree. There are too many people already out there with degrees in the field that you have no hope unless you get some big favors by some very important people.
However, if you want to dabble in STEM type stuff, there is no reason you can't get involved as a hobbyist. Many self-taught people code outside of work on open source projects.
Depends on what you mean by STEM (Score:3, Interesting)
Better to go to Graduate School (Score:2)
Re: How Should a Liberal Arts Major Get Into STEM? (Score:4, Interesting)
Carefully
I can speak for programming... (Score:3)
All of the high-end coders I know, have the following traits:
1. They learned how to teach themselves ... but they seek out mentors.
2. They learned when it's time to find someone to teach them things
3. They play with the code, they build things, experiment, etc.
4. They aren't afraid to try a new tool, and be a noob
5. They understand that the quality of their work is important... and seek out the processes and skills it takes to increase quality
Over my 20 year history, the folks with these traits have always managed to build things that last, and work well, and were easy to maintain.
Very few of them went to school for "Computer Science" degrees, everything from Poly Sci to Construction.
I say:
1. find (or start) an interesting open source project
2. learn how to use git
3. start building tests
4. code.
5. play.
Re: (Score:2)
This is my experience as well. I would avoid going into debt for another degree unless thats the only way you can get the knowledge you need to do the job. However, if thats the only way you can learn it then you should find another field because your not going to make it to the top anyway.
Not a Real Question (Score:5, Insightful)
When you say "STEM-related (preferably within the space industry" it clearly underscores that you are not seriously asking a question.
How the hell did this get past the editors.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
WTF does STEM even mean?
It means the branch of biology where you grow new kinds of cells from old ones.
Re: (Score:3)
Paging Dunning Kruger, Dunning Kruger, please pick up the white courtesy phone.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Let me try cleaning up your post for you, Senior Fussypants:
Dear original poster,
"STEM" is a very broad category of studies. Most of us who have jobs that could be called "STEM" jobs find that we're highly interested in some topics in this category (for example, software development), but not others (e.g., microbiology). Many of us are sufficiency interested in a broad cross-section of "STEM" topics to read about them on Wikipedia / Science Daily / EETimes / etc. But one thing is true of most of us: we'r
Re: (Score:3)
I'm with you on this. STEM is a term that's being pushed on us by political/media types for who-knows-what reasons. It reminds me of people talking about "ya". I saw that thrown around a lot as a genre of books, apparently meaning "Young Adult (literature)", and it took me a while to figure out what the hell people were talking about. It's not really even a genre, but a classification of the target audience. It's pretty dumb use of jargon.
Back to STEM. Science, technology, engineering, and math. As
Re: (Score:2)
Following that logic I wonder how effective the efforts will be to produce more STEM workers in the U.S.. When they say we need STEM workers clearly one of the things they mean is Computer Science, but I personally couldn't even give an educated guess as to what other more specific fields where they feel we have a supply shortage. Clearly not all paths are equal when it comes to tangible career prospects. If I were a young person looking at options, I'd really want to know which fields are likely to result
INTERN (Score:2)
When applying for actual jobs pick the entry level ones and push your passion.
That way you can get into actual space industry.
do as I say, and as I did (Score:3)
I got a degree in mathematics, and didn't go the teaching route. after working for a while in the geophysics industry, I got bored and wanted more options- I realized the best way to open up a lot of options is to go the engineering route (every job posting I found interesting required a BS in ME)
so, go back to school. start at community college (get calculus, diff eq, physics, chemistry out of the way), and make a good impression on your professors there (evaluate the ones worth making an impression on). this isn't hard- you don't need kiss up to them, just volunteer to answer questions, sit up front, ask questions, etc. then go back to them and ask for letters of recommendation (masters programs usually require three)
then, (now this is key), get a 4.0 in your undergrad engineering classes (you'll need to take a few in order to 'catch up' to other grad students; but you won't have to waste time with classes outside of your specialty- I focused on thermofluids, and skipped advanced materials/vibrations stuff). Alternate between co-op semesters, and class/research semesters. Your degree will take a bit longer to complete, but you'll have a lot of fun, make important contacts, and have the chance to do really cool stuff (I joined formula SAE and EWB, and it was a blast)
After your first, or second semester, hit the job fairs. Try to get a coop/internship (maybe with an aerospace firm?). This will help finance your schooling- save your money, and use it for books/rent/food (not tuition, take out loans for that)
BUT this is assuming you want an MS in mechanical engineering. you say you want to go into STEM, and something space related. That's still incredibly vast- you could design fuel systems, airframes, engine components, heck (if you're good at it) you could make an entire career out of analyzing drag on nose cones!
So, don't say you want to go into space, quiet yet. Narrow down the field of STEM you want to work in- teaching math, researching biology, designing blu-ray players, investigating car crashes? I knew i wanted to go into ME, so I took the basic ME undergrad courses and fell in love with thermodynamics, and fluid mechanics- so I went the thermofluid route. I would've been happy designing pumps that move liquid chocolate around, but instead I get to work on the fuel system for the F-35
(also, read what color is your parachute)
Donate (Score:4, Funny)
Good luck... (Score:2)
When hiring technical people, we look at education and experience. Depending on the age, one or the other takes greater importance.
At a (relatively) young age of 25, education is the most important. Your education does not qualify you for a STEM job, simple as that.
Now, a number of jobs can be had based on personal relationships. Let's say you have a special skill
Peripheral STEM career - technical writing (Score:3)
With your current background, you could get a job in technical writing. Every firm that does engineering needs people like you who:
* Understand the subject matter
* Can write about it readably
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly. An English major already has a leg up provided they can communicate in writing. And the more engineering classes you can take related to the field your company works in, your writing's only going to improve as you're able to understand the engineers better and write fairly decent documentation.
Heck, get a job i
Ignore these idiots (Score:4, Insightful)
First step... (Score:2)
First step: Don't tell them you're a liberal arts major.
Go with "microbiology major who hasn't been in school for awhile".
I was in the same boat (Score:3)
I graduated at the end of the Cold War ('93), so an engineering degree was worthless -- all the companies were laying off their engineers as quickly as possible. Combined with the fact that the engineering jobs I interned for or heard about were not very interesting (managing a chemical factory?), I got a liberal arts degree. I went into IT for about 10 years, but in the long run I just didn't care that much about the mechanics of computers. I eventually got a PhD in biostatistics after taking the prerequisite courses. Statistics has let me get into various different research projects without having to overspecialize. I work for a hospital system now and do different research studies every day.
As an engineer... (Score:2)
You may have already realized this but engineers operate on facts/empirical evidence and it is absolutely critical to identify screw-ups (both individual cases and as a per-person trend) and call them out so we don't repeat the same mistakes. Far too often, I've worked with people who were more concerned with negative perception than with shipping product. Understand that we who are trying to produce care less about your feelings than your work product. Constructive criticism only works if the person being
Wow, So Much Hate ... I've Been There, Ignore Them (Score:5, Interesting)
I know that people who worked hard for their Engineering degrees will naturally be suspicious of anyone who seems to have done less work than them, but even so I was rather amazed at the amount of ignorance and hatred in the responses here. As a Literature major who now makes six figures programming, please do ignore them.
My advice would be to enroll at Hack Reactor or a similar coding boot camp. We've hired two programmers from them: one was a Biology PhD, the other just had a Chinese Literature undergraduate degree. In both cases we didn't really care what their degree was, we cared about their abilities. Based on what I've seen, the best of the graduates of Hack Reactor are WAY better hires than an average CS graduate (and they're a lot easier to hire; the Googles of the world snatch up the top CS graduates before smaller companies like ours even have a chance).
Of course, I personally didn't take the boot camp approach. I graduated, spent a year unemployed, then managed to get a position as a web designer for a small company. It was a terrible company: they wouldn't even pay for water for employees! But as annoying as their cheapness was, it was that very cheapness that got me hired. Because I was willing to work for $15/hour and could do the work (I'd taught myself web development) I was able to get that crucial first job. You may have to hold your nose in a similar way to get your first job, if you don't take the boot camp approach.
Once I got my foot in the door by working their a year I moved on to a junior programming job, worked my way up to being a team lead, and then moved on to my current company (a start-up). I'd imagine you could do something similar, but going through a boot camp will give you that "foot in the door", which is really the hardest part for someone in your position. After the boot camp gets you your first job, that job will get you all your future jobs.
So, ignore the negativity here. Silicon Valley really is, at least to a large extent, a meritocracy: what matters is being good at your craft, not where you came from.
it might be too late (Score:2)
The reason might not be so much that he/she is unable to learn (although that is a possibility -- many people find that after years of being out of college and hard science, they no longer have the patience/drive to sit through those classes). It is also a matter of having done this switch, he/she will be behind by years, and possibly sending bad signa
Cheap 2-4 year plus English (Score:2)
My suggestion is that you combine your interests and your knowledge. Technical people tend to lack one important concept and that is being non-technical and approaching problems from outside their focus. I would suggest getting a technical degree 2-4 years in the field of your choice from either a technical college or a state 4 year school. Choose the degree with the idea of how you might apply your arts based experience and education as well as interests to that degree. For instance Mechanical Engineering
Re: (Score:2)
This.
It seems to me that developers have a much higher earning potential when they have not only a strong software skills, but also a solid background in another traditionally non-software field (.e.g medicine) so they can talk both languages.
You make THAT much? (Score:2)
Reminds me of the late 90's when I graduated. Got my first real job, pre-bubble, and the amount I was making wasn't really all that impressive, but a full time salary is a full time salary. My uncle exclaimed "You make THAT much? Man, how do I get into that industry?"
My reply was, and still is, "If you ask that question, you can't."
Re: (Score:2)
If my uncle said that to me, I'd blow his head off with a shot gun!
Cause he's been dead for a while, and fuck zombies.
Tech Writer (Score:2)
David Mertz (Score:2)
I really enjoyed reading the book "text processing with python" [gnosis.cx] And one thing that struck me was that the guy writing it has a pretty solid liberal arts background [gnosis.cx].
So I think if I were you I would find some subject that interests you and to which computing techniques might be applied, learn what you need to be able to address that and then write a blog, a paper or even a book that describes your approach. Then use that to support your application for a STEM job. I am sure you will get PLENTY of feedback if
Have times changed that much? (Score:2)
It used to be that any degree would get your "foot in the door" with HR. Some of the best programmers I worked with over the years had degrees in English, Philosophy, and even a History major.
University teaches you how to learn new material, how to prioritize it, how to summarize, how to reach the meat in the middle of the chaff. It does not teach you how to program. While there are benefits to knowing computing theory, it's not theory that gets the job done -- experience does that.
I'm surprised you
I did it (Score:2)
English major, here. I wanted to get into Radio really bad when I was in college and after what I felt was a non-competitive B- in organic chemistry (I was a chem major, first). I learned later that B- was actually pretty good, and I regret not sticking with that program... why, I'd be making space-age polymers by now!
I always liked dinking around on computers. Had a CP/M machine back in the day, liked writing little utility programs and stupid zork-like text games. Always enjoyed spending time on the machi
Start low or re-educate (Score:2)
In my position I hire a lot of students for a lab work. I've come to realize that the best workers aren't necessarily the people with STEM majors; the best workers are generally people who are interested and feel a little over their head. I've had many terrible pre-meds, and always had good luck with my English majors. If you're willing to start low in the food web, get a job as a lab technician somewhere (universities are often a decent bet). If you can, prioritize places that look like they have work or i
Very vague (Score:2)
What do you want to do in STEM?
IF you just want to be around doing work for a space agency, they hire liberal arts majors to.
I'm always a little leery of people who want to enter STEM, but with no specifics.
Take advantage of the system (Score:2)
Take advantage of the system
(1) Find the best college or community college that'll have you as an English teacher ...While still teaching, if you can; 1
(2) Teach English for small $
(3) Take advantage of the perquisite that you get to take some amount of free classes because you are faculty
(4) Finish an associates in a STEM field. An associates is transferrable, even if credits are not (I suggest microbiology)
(5) Either transfer as a student, or, if it's a good college, finish your bachelors degree there
(6)
Re:Please don't (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Please don't (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
^
I remember reading recently that law schools put out some 40,000 new lawyers per year, where there's only an economic demand of about 7,000 new ones per year.
Re:Please don't (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking of debts, after you find the STEM topic that interests you most (motivation should be key to choosing what to study), and identify the kind of program you want to apply for, get as much of the requirements done at inexpensive community college or other local institutions with transferrable credits. A few years ago my local community college offered classes at $70 a credit or less - books often cost more. To me that's almost free.
And vote to elect people who will fight for less profits made off student loans, and even for more subsidies for eduction.
Re: (Score:2)
You should check out the unemployment and college debt numbers for law school grads. Unless you're going to a top of the line law school and are an extremely competitive person, odds are very good you'll never recoup that investment. Many law school grads never find a job practicing law.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
You apparently don't know how hard it is for a lawyer to find work.
Re: (Score:3)
When I was interviewed for the now defunct Hughes Aircraft, one of the questions was, "do you have a problem with the fact that what we do here is basically kill people".
Nope, not one bit.
Re: (Score:3)
What I know now is that I would have been happier and/or richer being either:
(a) a banker, or
(b) a programmer.
Most of engineering is very, very dull indeed.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Whats your point? /. jerks are justified in being overly jerky because some guy you know thinks STEM is full of jerks? Surely your prof doesn't teach every literature class...
And whoever downmodded the GP pretty much proved his point by essentially saying "Your benign suggestion to open our minds is BULLSHIT because when we're trying to be objective theres no time to sugar coat it, theres only enough time to be a dick!"
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Hey! I held off with my "barista at Space-Starbucks" joke.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm actually betting on better jobs - and maybe better skillsets to get those better jobs. Disappointment breeds bitterness.
(Of course, the question would be whether it's mostly folks who have stem jobs but just lousy ones, who have lousy non stem jobs... or are highschoolers hanging out here griping as a way to blow off steam. And for the latter group, well, on the one hand, better manners would be nice, but from what I remember of my teenager years* you really do need to blow off steam.)
* I didn't really
Re: (Score:2)
Because as everyone knows, a liberal arts course makes you a better person, whereas STEM leaves you bitter, cynical and competent.
Re: (Score:3)
A very good idea. (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
Well hopefully the organization handing you a degree has done some work to verify that you are qualified to have that degree.
Some degrees are better defined than others, and having a degree doesn't mean you're immediately qualified to perform a job. For example an M.D. would need to go through a residency program before they a qualified to hold a medical license to practice unsupervised.
While Software Engineer is so poorly defined that it's difficult to determine what skills were acquired by a person with s
Re: (Score:2)
The fact that you wrote that message is an example of why we need Liberal Arts education.
Re: (Score:2)
Agreed, "those that do not study history..."
But really, a Liberal Arts degree is useless. Liberal Arts classes can be quite useful.
But perhaps our AC friend should not not be in any higher education at all. It sounds like he can't (or couldn't) make the cut.
Re: (Score:2)
I absolutely agree with this. Go talk to them and find out what fields are available to you. Your existing degree and a few years of real experience will jump you way ahead. You will be much better off than just getting a second degree.