Ask Slashdot: Is There a Modern IP Webcam That Lets the User Control the Output? 263
First time accepted submitter Tronster writes Owners of a local shop have a menu that changes daily and wanted an IP webcam to update an image on their web-site. After a frustrating 2 hours of a "Hikvision" refusing to behave, I threw in the towel and looked for a better camera to recommend. The biggest issue today is that the new webcams that come out don't support FTP, they all support sending images/video direct to a "private cloud" (e.g., Simplicam, Dropcam, etc...). Google has been no help; all the sites are either outdated in terms of ranking or the most recent ones recommend a Foscam. They previously tried one of these and it's image quality was too poor. While security systems and home automation has been discussed recently, I haven't found any recent discussions on webcams that give a user control of where the content is sent. Does anyone in the Slashdot community have recommendations, reputable sites that are up-to-date in rankings, and/or hacks to have control over some of these newer cameras?
Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Second, you could just take a stock webcam, attach it to an RPi, let it make a picture, let's say every 15 minutes and upload it to the desired FTP server. 100% scriptable.
Personally, I think this idea is ripe for abuse. Somebody is going to draw penises on the menu and it will be there on the site for all to see. Overthink your workflow instead of doing this.
Re:Really? (Score:5, Funny)
Actually, I was going to draw breasts. Clearly your level of perversion is of a far baser nature than mine.
Re:Really? (Score:5, Funny)
Actually, I'm going to draw breasts.
( . )( . )
Re:Really? (Score:5, Funny)
That is the breast post I have seen in a long time.
Modern IP Webcams, anyone? Anyone?? (Score:4, Insightful)
There is no need for a debate about how to run a restaurant.
Webcam in the restaurant (Score:3)
I came here to learn about Modern IP Webcams.
There is no need for a debate about how to run a restaurant.
Unless, perhaps, you need a Modern IP Webcam to collect evidence of food mishandling in the kitchen or (in the case of fast food) violence at the counter.
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*plausible deniability not included
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Even better, have them type in the menu to whatever they use to create their PDF (presumably they do actually print menus to give to diners :-) but then turn that input into HTML and put it on the web.
In any case, WTF do restaurants insist on publishing their menus as poxy goddessawful PDFs anyway? This is just pandering to the designer's pitiful little ego. If you want me to come dine, give me something I can READ, damn you.
Re:Really? (Score:4)
Actually the conversion between a free-form pagesetting layout and HTML is non-trivial - unless the printed menu is utterly simplistic there's likely to be a fair amount of work necessary to convert it to a non-hideous HTML document. So, since HTML is unacceptable due to increased costs your options are basically a bitmapped image, or something vector-based that can be zoomed. Which basically means either PDF or SVG, and an awful lot of software doesn't have decent SVG exporting, while there are plugins that allow any program to print to PDF, assuming they don't support exporting PDF natively.
Moreover, the summary specifically says "shop", not restraunt. So there's a fair chance that their menu is in fact hand-drawn on a black/whiteboard without any printed copies. I know lots of bars and cafes that do that - printing out new menus every day wastes a LOT of paper.
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Right - On most menu's its the graphics, borders, headers, fonts, etc. that cause problems with HMTL export. Could you position them within an HTML table? Sure, sort of, up to a point But that requires that you design your menu based on the limitations of HTML - and why the %$#@! would you want to do that for anything that wasn't being designed primarily for the web? It's *painful*, straight page-setting software is *far* more flexible. And does your page-setting program offer an HTML export function
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You do realize that they are talking probably about chalk-on-a-board menus right? I'm sure the poster would have been smart enough to upload a PDF if there was any to begin with.
Please not PDF. A picture's not good either. (Score:5, Insightful)
Restaurant sites are what usability pros show onscreen when they want to get a belly laugh from the audience.
The reason is that restaurants are focused on looks before usability. This leads them to use pictures of text, PDFs, and the hated Flash.
Those technologies range from poor to complete fail when it comes to searchability, mobile adaptability, accessibility, and ability to select and copy/paste text.
Please, use HTML text instead. It's not hard to format it beautifully with CSS, and you'll be helping patrons find you, paste the address into their contacts or GPS, share favorite stuff with friends, and get a dollar out of their hands and into yours.
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Restaurant sites are what usability pros show onscreen when they want to get a belly laugh from the audience.
The reason is that restaurants are focused on looks before usability. This leads them to use pictures of text, PDFs, and the hated Flash.
Those technologies range from poor to complete fail when it comes to searchability, mobile adaptability, accessibility, and ability to select and copy/paste text.
So instead the site designer creates a solution supposedly more far more "usable", and rides off into the sunset with a new slide for her presentation. But since no one actually working at the restaurant day-to-day is computer savy or has any time for keyboarding stuff while cooking or waiting on tables, the menu gets way out of date (until some waiter's kid who knows how to use the computer comes by), and the highly usable accessible searchable search result returns a bogus menu from last month.
With a cam
Re: Please not PDF. A picture's not good either. (Score:2)
Somebody likely typed the menu.
Strikes me that a quick web form to copy I paste the text is a lot less elaborate than maintaining a webcam for the purpose. But that's just me.
Good usability pros don't "ride off into the sunset" before testing to make sure the solution works well for all stakeholders, including those who must maintain the content without help.
Re:Really? (Score:5, Informative)
First of all, why not simply upload a PDF with the new menu every day?...
...another task is the exact situation they want to avoid and see technology as a solution.
For those comments about defacing; it's not a small menu off to the side, or in front of the shop, it's a 6 foot tall menu board in the main area (it's an ice-cream shop) which is already updated daily (or a few times a day if they run out of a flavor and cross over to their next batch, etc...) Once a camera is in place, showing the menu online is something they just don't have to worry about any more - updating the menu board updates its on the web.
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The pdf (IMO it shouldn't even do pdf, but should create an html page.) should be an automatic result of wherever they update their menu. There should be no extra steps from their point of view. If you mean the extra step of having to create the workflow process which does it, you're doing that anyway by writing crazy ad-hoc webcam software.
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This situation is what Facebook is for.
Make a bunch of links in the site, state, "Click for daily specials" and link to Facebook.
And, for you whankers that are going to claim "I don't use Facebook", a business can make it so the profile is completely public so no account is needed.
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And, for you whankers that are going to claim "I don't use Facebook", a business can make it so the profile is completely public so no account is needed.
Wankers isn't spelled with a H. Also, stop trying to be logical with hipsters, if they used facebook's public profiles it would be too mainstream for them.
Is it too hard... (Score:5, Interesting)
..to snap a photo of the menu with their smart phone and upload it to a website every day? Most restaurants around here do that.
Re:Is it too hard... (Score:5, Funny)
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That is the most painful web-related thing I've ever had to read.
Re:Is it too hard... (Score:5, Funny)
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You're right, it's not too difficult to take a photo and upload it everyday.
What's easier than that? Having to take no photo or upload at all because it's all happening automatically.
Motion (Score:4, Insightful)
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Came here to suggest this. Besides doing a static image, you can also use it as a motion detector so that at night, if there is a break-in, there's a chance of getting a snapshot of the robbers.
Here's a link: http://www.lavrsen.dk/foswiki/... [lavrsen.dk]
This looks interesting: https://medium.com/@Cvrsor/how... [medium.com]
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Seriously? What are the chances a thief is going to stand next to the menu board to see what yesterday's dinner special was?
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re-aim the camera at closing time to aim at the door. What's so hard about that?
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At some point down the track, someone will forget to do it. That's what.
Have two cameras.
Because (Score:5, Insightful)
You're looking for a "webcam", stop looking for a "webcam" and you will find what you want.
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This, absolutley this, I'd mod you up if I had the points. A webcam is specifically designed for streaming video, usually at horrible low resolution that would make a menu unreadable.
What the questioner really wants is just an easy way to snap a single photo with a decent digital camera and upload it to the website, preferably without requiring any technical knowledge on the part of the photographer. I'm sure there's a smartphone app to do that, probably several.
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Immerman: If you know of an App, please pass on the word. The key is that it needs to be triggered if there is motion (when the board is updated).
koan: I thought of a iPhone or Android that could do the trick but would need to find a piece of software that can activate with motion, and FTP the image up to a site. Webcams are essentially build for this, with both video and images. The problem is, the older ones have horrible resolution. The newer webcams look great (720p, 1080p, good sensors, etc...) but
Re: Because (Score:2)
Motion detection is a horrible idea. It just needs to be set to snap pics as often as they normally change the menu (or have it be triggered manually in a simple, push-button fashion).
Re:Because (Score:5, Informative)
You're looking for a "webcam", stop looking for a "webcam" and you will find what you want.
Bingo. These festures are easily found on most modern IP security cameras. And the bonus is they can be configured remotely after initial setup. Mobotix is the high end brand, Axis is high quality....and lower end brands may fit the bill as well.
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This is fantastic; hadn't come across Mobotix or Axis.
Will check them out. Thank you.
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Try VivoTek as well, they make some nice 5MP units with good optical zoom - meaning you can mount the camera a good distance away and zoom into the menu board.
We used to run mobotix exclusively, and their cameras are now in the low to mid-range in performance, but still high-end in price.
Pie (Score:4, Informative)
Finally, a proper use case for the Raspberry Pi. And in its natural habitat at that!
Re:Pie (Score:5, Informative)
Agreed! However, I've read this far and have not seen anyone actually answer his direct question.
So: D-Link DCS-930L:
* about $30
* wired or wireless network
* IP camera
* 640x480 (may be low-ish, but should be enough for a menu if properly framed in the FoV)
* FTP client support
If it was me, I'd just have them write the menu twice:
1. on chalkboard
2. on a form that updates the webpage (or just in a markdown doc and have that uploaded; or in something else and have them export to pdf and upload; etc)
They're already having someone write it by hand on a chalkboard whenever it changes. That takes WAY more time than writing by hand on paper, and both take longer than typing.
If they *really* need the fully automated chalkboard-to-web solution, then the Raspberry Pi is a perfect solution. You could also use any old or new mini pc (zotac zbox; asus eee box; chrombox; etc) + any camera or webcam you want. Install linux and "motion". Have motion upload new images when the image changes, or use a cron job to schedule it (ex. if they turn the lights off at night, you probably don't want motion to upload a black snapshot). You could also combine the two - enable motion during the day and disable it at night via cron but use it to decide when to upload.
Maybe this is "too much work". As others have pointed out, there's more than one way to skin this cat. Cheapest and most readily available and very simple would be to have them take the picture with their phone and upload it. This could be tweaked an any number of ways as needed. For example:
a) write a mini app to do this. This would hide the file renaming, ftp settings, etc, and it's just be a button to take a picture and a button to say "ok, upload that". Writing apps is like that is REALLY easy.
b) save the photos to dropbox or upload to twitter etc. Then, server side, script it to find the most recent when displaying the menu.
c) Just tell them how and write that on a piece of paper for them to follow: take picture; save it; go into ftp app; select it; rename it to "menu.jpg"; click upload
RasPi + Camera module (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd go with a Raspberry Pi (35$), either with a camera module [raspberrypi.org] or a no-infrared module [raspberrypi.org]; a small shell script will do, google for it!
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You can get 5+ megapixel camera for PI from MCM Electronics for $25.
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Or they can just use the camera in one of the smartphones that someone in the restaurant already owns?
Sharx (Score:4, Informative)
Try this (Score:4, Informative)
WB350F
It is a regular pocket camera that can connect to wifi and email photos. It might work for you. Have the people pick the camera up, take a picture of the menu, press the email button, and then have the website poll the email account every 10 minutes for a picture sent by the address associated with the camera.
A little messy but I think that is the way to go. It does require people pick the camera up and do that every day. But is that a problem?
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Thank you. May not work as the existing camera mounts are from the ceiling; not easily accessible... still worth checking out; perhaps there is a hack.
How about an old Android phone? (Score:2)
Since you don't like the quality of Foscam, how about an old Android phone? I own a Foscam and had no problems with the quality, so I assume you want a higher resolution. Any old or cheap Android phone will likely have a high enough resolution. Combine that with something like autocam [google.com] and write a small script that ftps the picture (have never tried autocam so I'm not sure if it is OK...). The phone will have wifi etc. all build in. You might needs some creativity to mount it to a wall.
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Thank you, this is definitely an option.
Got a leftover cellphone? (Score:2)
Axis M-1004W (Score:2)
The Axis M-1004W supports an FTP location as the recipient for an event. An event can be scheduled for a specific time of day. It supports 720p resolution.
If you want anything higher then 1024p, you're probably no longer looking for a webcam.
D-Link DCS-933L (Score:2)
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Just spend $3 on an ebay webcam from a laptop, rig up a USB cable, and use an IP Webcam program.
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Know Nutter: Thanks for the link.
Anon: Thanks for the notice on the resolution... there may be a DLink solution; the one KN mentioned is a bit low (640x480) but I see there are some at 720p which may do the trick if they go in this direction.
Not Hard to Find (Score:3)
Even my $20 basic D-Link (DCS-930L) IP enabled camera has FTP upload capability. I'm pretty sure the very similar TP-Link one does as well. These are not really as hard to find as the OP suggests. If you spend a few minutes looking at most of the companies that have been doing cameras for more than a couple of years you'll find plenty with FTP upload capability. Just stay away from the overpriced ones with clever names e.g. "Dropcam" and stick to something more basic. If you do want to spend some money and get a much better camera go for a commercial one like an Axis.
foscam/loftek (Score:2)
All Foscam/Loftek cameras I've played with allow for the image to simply be retrieved as a JPEG from the camera by accessing an HTTP URL with a username/password in the query string. (Sometimes in a streaming/server-push manner, but I assume there's a way to change or work around that)
From your question, I don't quite understand what you're trying to do with FTP, but Foscam/Loftek+wget should give you the flexibility you need. (Before buying, I recommend consulting the Zoneminder wiki/forums, as cameras tha
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The end goal is to have a web-page that displays the image; FTP is just a way of getting the image to the page.
The Foscam they tried did have FTP build in but image quality wasn't up to snuff.
Thank you for mentioning the Zoneminder wiki/forums; that seems to be a good source of information from people having utilized the equipment they talk about.
Not webcam (Score:2, Insightful)
I've seen restaurants use photos of the menu taken from a phone or even a serious camera, and it looks amateur. Webcam is unlikely to look better no matter what you do.
If this menu is done daily and looks professional in the restaurant, it should be professionally done on the website, such as a PDF. If the menu is just a chalk board that someone updates by hand, possibly several times a day, then a photo should be fine, but even then you should take a proper photograph from close up and upload it.
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It's an ice cream shop. If it's like my favorite ice cream shop, that menu can change 3 times in one hour as the ice cream as ice cream is used up and new ice cream taken out for use, or as some of their dozens of flavors run out near the end of the business day.
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business ethic and workflow
Maybe look up those words.
RaspberryPi (Score:2)
This would dead simple with a raspberrypi and pi camera module. Cron takes a still shot (raspistill -o filename.jpg) every 5 or 10 minutes. Rsync over ssh to your website via cron every 5 or 10 minutes. Create a nice looking webpage that displays the image. Since the image name never changes your web page is updated as soon as the new jpg is uploaded.
Why a camera? (Score:2)
Which Foscam? (Score:5, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:3)
UniFi Video Camera (Score:2)
Ubiquiti Networks [ubnt.com] make some decent cameras [ubnt.com] with a whole bunch of decent features including fetching a snapshot with an HTTP request. They are designed to send their video output to their DVR software (which is actively supported on Linux) but in practice if all you need is to access still images over HTTP and video over RTSP then you can set up the control software on your laptop, fire it up once to configure the camera and then switch it off and the camera will continue to run without the DVR.
Of course, as
StarDot Technologies webcams run Linux (Score:2)
Canon Powershot + CHDK + RPi (Score:2)
CHDK loaded on a cheap used canon powershot camera, connected to a RPi via USB. CHDK script to take a picture hourly at your desired resolution, ptp it to the rpi, which you write a small cron job to sftp/rsync/ftp to the server with the correct filename. $200, heck, $100 if you shop around (Saw a Canon A530 on ebay for $15!) and some time doing the setup. Non-trivial time, mind you- but it'll do exactly what you want with a fantastic picture quality.
Hikvision and "Why are you doing it that way" (Score:2)
HikVision are not my favorite camera to use and prefer Axis or a ton of others, but they all do the same job.
What is with needing FTP?
You should have the corporate site web page that pulls up an image from the HikVision IP camera. That camera is password protected and will only pay attention to the web site or your programming IP address. Could do live feed or update on whatever schedule you want.
It sounds like the main chef wants to hand-write the menu and doesn't want to do it any other way, and you are
modern...ftp? (Score:2)
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And what if this is one of those chalkboard menus, and they are wanting to recreate that vibe on their website?
Smartphone picture to twitter or instagram and website include of latest post.
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As somebody else said up above, restaurant web sites are often terrible because they value form over substance. My favorite sites have a PDF of the menu, or an HTML menu available. The menu on the web site should be accurate, up to date, readable, accessibl
The nineties called (Score:2)
The nineties called.
They want their coffee-cam back.
Trendnet TV-IP862IC (Score:2)
I've got a couple TrendNet TV-IP862IC [trendnet.com]. They support 720p H.264 video, and speak FTP and (crucially for my application) Samba.
Caught me a burglar with 'em: he came in, poked around, noticed the camera and ripped it out of the wall, but not before the camera sent his picture to the SMB fileserver hidden in a closet. Police recognized him, picked him up, and he confessed to a string of burglaries to support his heroin habit.
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Thank you; had not heard of this brand before.
The TV-IP562WI [trendnet.com] may do the trick.
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Haven't gone thru comments yet (Score:2)
What about something that I've thought about? Using a cheapie Android phone (i.e. pay as you go, can get an LG Fuel - rootable - for $10 on sale from time to time). Obviously only if you're really into digging into coding if you want absolute security, but I'm sure there's something out there perhaps pre-packaged in an app to do what you want. I've thought of this as a sort of hacked-together security system for home just to upload video of anyone coming and going from the house. And yes, I know it's no
New and Modern, Baah Humbug... (Score:2)
Axis webcams permit loading a single jpeg, using one of several tools, none of which include their super fancy "look at the webcam" web app.
For example, using the *nix command "curl" gives you a jpeg of what's currently being watched, presto, no grief, no complications.
What you -do- with the jpeg is very much up to you.
I run multiple cameras looking out of my residence, and stuff them into motion jpeg files on a terabyte disk. I use a cron file to change files on an hourly basis, and with the number of cam
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MJPG-streamer, USB cam, and a Raspberry Pi. (Score:2)
That's all you need. If you want a better quality image than a cheap USB webcam, use the Raspberry Pi camera, but a $5 USB cam works just fine if you don't need a high frame rate -- and if you're just pointing the thing at a menu, you only need one frame a day ;). The software is FOSS [sourceforge.net], and works just fine on the r-pi. I use such a setup to monitor my 3D printer from elsewhere in the house. If you need fine-grained control over who connects, well the Raspberry's running linux, so go nuts.
Although that
Most IP cameras (Score:2)
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An interesting approach but it has some issues for this situation:
1) The potential web camera is on a LAN with an IP that isn't web visible
2) The idea is not to have to dedicate any other computers to get the image up
3) The shop does not have a static IP address
All of these are addressable, but if the camera can push the image out, rather than someone reach in to pull it from the camera, it seems to be a much easier task.
(Or it would be if the Hikvision FTP was working as claimed in the manual.)
Alternative (Score:3)
Instead of having a camera taking a picture of a chalkboard every X minutes all the time and uploading the pictures to a website how about replacing the chalkboard with a monitor that shows the menu from the website. Then change the menu on the website to look like a chalkboard. When the chef or manager wants to update the menu they use the computer in the office to change the file and upload the changes to the website. The display in the restaurant would get updated (it could poll the web server every minute or ten) automatically. Plus the menu becomes more accessible to those with disabilities.
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how about replacing the chalkboard with a monitor
The monitor is for Burger King.
The chalkboard the hometown bar and grill or the upmarket tavern
Trust me on this.
I live in a border town which has been successfully cultivating a low-tech exterior to satisfy the tourist trade for 190 years.
Maybe answer the question? (Score:2)
Use a Video server (Score:2)
Yes, but not low grade crap. (Score:2)
You have to pay about $450 for the camera. AXIS work great for this.
tell your customer to stop being a cheap bastard and spend the money on the real deal.
Re:Why even use a webcam? (Score:4, Informative)
If I were to guess, the menu changes daily and is written on something like a chalkboard or whiteboard. They could print it, but the handwriting gives it a homestyle artistic "flare" that the restaurant wants to maintain:
My thought then would be something like this: Get a tablet or smartphone with a wacom stylus (e.g. Galaxy Note 10) and a big TV (say 55", get a used one on CL for about $400 or so.)
Hand write the menu on the tablet (you can use different color writing and background as you desire) and save the image file to a place that uploads it to a computer that is connected to the TV at the restaurant (which is in portrait orientation) and to the website.
Has an added benefit of making it easily readable by the visually impaired, and it looks neat (you can also have it mounted up high somewhere, which might be impractical for a chalkboard/whiteboard.)
I'd imagine you could spend less than $800 on this total setup.
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Umm...assuming 8 hours a day of running time, a TV like that would cost about $30 per year in electricity if it was a really shitty one. The average ones are about $20 a year, and the LED backlit ones would be about $13 a year. The computer could be either less or more, depending on chosen components.
Anyways the guy is already talking about spending money, and already bought a hikvision camera, which start at around $175 for JUST the camera, not even including the POE equipment and servers that it will send
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Surely the best idea is to continue to use the marker board, and type the freaking menu into the website. That way it will be easy to read for everyone, especially those with poor vision (through larger fonts), no vision (through screen readers), or using mobile devices (probably the most likely device someone would use for finding a restaurant, actually. Definitely the most likely device someone would use from within the restaurant if they don't have a good view of the board).
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This takes time and is prone to forgetting. It also requires keyboard space somewhere unlikely to wind up covered with product. That counter space is _expensive_, every foot not in use for real service is lost to profit.
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Consumer TV's are not rated to be on for 12+ hours at a time
And yet it will work fine anyways. Remember that 9 year old LCD TV I mentioned? Yeah well it's been on practically 24/7, and it was a no-name generic bought refurbished at best buy.
- Digital Signage can lead to copyright problems (drawing a copyrighted character is a derivative work, copy/pasting becomes questionable)
The exact same thing applies to a chalk board. Honestly it sounds like you're arguing just to argue.
You're just hair splitter. Off with ya.
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Not thinking it through. (Score:2)
If I were to guess, the menu changes daily and is written on something like a chalkboard or whiteboard. They could print it, but the handwriting gives it a homestyle artistic "flare" that the restaurant wants to maintain.
Marketing 101
The home style look you mention requires the use of real chalk and a real chalkboard. What a restaurant in this class needs is a discreet unattended webcam that can post live changes to the menu to its website.
Fail this and you might as well go back to flipping burgers at McD's.
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"Flare" [wikimedia.org] vs. "flair" [quickmeme.com].
Re: Why even use a webcam? (Score:2)
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Photography [wikipedia.org] was invented in the early 1800's, the blackboard [wikipedia.org] was invented earlier than that and the first postal service dates from around 4415 years ago. [wikipedia.org]
So this seems more like a problem for the 1800's, unless you were talking about posting the photo on the line [youtube.com].
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Flair, as in:
Joanna: You know what, Stan, if you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair, like your pretty boy over there, Brian, why don't you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair?
Stan, Chotchkie's Manager: Well, I thought I remembered you saying that you wanted to express yourself.
Joanna: Yeah. You know what, yeah, I do. I do want to express myself, okay. And I don't need 37 pieces of flair to do it.
[flips off Stan]
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We used mobotix to do scheduled 5 minute uploads to an ftp site. Worked well. Their software stinks, but the hardware is very reliable and the software on camera is also reliable. You can set up multiple action profiles triggered on timers, motion or dry contact input.
Looks like the D25 is more like $600