Ask Slashdot: Have You Tried a Standing Desk? 340
An anonymous reader writes: Evidence is piling up that sitting down all day is really bad for you. I work primarily from home, and as I grow older, I'm starting to worry about long term consequences to riding a desk full-time. We talked about this a few years ago, but the science has come a long way since then, and so have the options for standing desks. My questions: do you use a standing desk? What kind of setup do you have? There are a lot of options, and a lot of manufacturers. Further studies have questioned the wisdom of standing all day, so I've been thinking about a standing/sitting combo, and just switching every so often. If you do this, do you have time limits or a particular frequency with which you change from sitting to standing?
I'm also curious about under-desk treadmills — I could manage slowly walking during parts of my work, and the health benefits are easy to measure. Also, any ergonomic tips? A lot of places seem to recommend: forearms parallel to the ground, top of monitor at eye level, and a pad for under your feet. Has your experience been the same? Those of you who have gone all-out on a motorized setup, was it worth the cost? The desks are dropping in price, but I can still see myself dropping upward of $1k on this, easily.
I'm also curious about under-desk treadmills — I could manage slowly walking during parts of my work, and the health benefits are easy to measure. Also, any ergonomic tips? A lot of places seem to recommend: forearms parallel to the ground, top of monitor at eye level, and a pad for under your feet. Has your experience been the same? Those of you who have gone all-out on a motorized setup, was it worth the cost? The desks are dropping in price, but I can still see myself dropping upward of $1k on this, easily.
yes. tried one. (Score:2)
Re:yes. tried one. (Score:4, Interesting)
I have the opportunity to work standing as well as sitting at my desk since it can be elevated. However I don't think that standing is much better, the problem is non-movement.
Unfortunately working with computers is hard when walking around.
Re:yes. tried one. (Score:5, Informative)
This. The real problem isn't sitting or standing: it's being still.
As standing desks have become more of a fad in the last few years, longer-term research is finally starting to come out regarding their effects, and everything I've seen so far indicates that its users are basically just trading one set of issues with sitting desks (i.e. circulatory problems, certain spinal issues, heart problems) for a different set of issues with standing desks (i.e. foot problems, different spinal issues, heart problems).
In both cases, the research is indicating that simply increasing the amount of activity in your routine alleviates the worst of the concerns, which is why it's so important to build regular breaks into your day where you get up and stretch, walk around, or at the very least do something that gets you out of your usual position, whether that's sitting or standing.
Standing has the benefit of predisposing its practitioners towards more regular activity, which can be a benefit, to be sure, but if all you're doing is trading sitting for standing without otherwise changing your routine, you really aren't going to see a net improvement. At best, you'll see a temporary relief of the symptoms specific to sitting before you start to develop the symptoms specific to standing.
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At best, you'll see a temporary relief of the symptoms specific to sitting before you start to develop the symptoms specific to standing.
You seem to be assuming that this is a trade between sitting all the time or standing all the time. Not so. The "ideal" situation is an adjustable desk that will let you sit or stand. You then do each part of the day.
There is definite evidence that switching up your working position has real benefits. You don't have to -- probably should not -- do all of one or all of the other.
Re:yes. tried one. (Score:5, Informative)
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i watched an interview with linus torvalds where he showed off his programming walking desk (treadmill/desk combo).
i think that is the best solution and i'm planning to do the same for my new study (current one doesn't have enough room). he reckons a "zombie shuffling mode" aka walking at 1 mph is the top speed at which he can comfortably read, type and use mouse on his computer.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/l... [zdnet.com]
https://plus.google.com/+Linus... [google.com]
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Yup. I increased my water intake to about 4-5L per day. This means multiple times getting up to a) refill my water bottle. and b) going to the washroom.
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(i.e. circulatory problems, certain spinal issues, heart problems) for a different set of issues with standing desks (i.e. foot problems, different spinal issues, heart problems).
Those problems are very likely food and lifestyle issues and have nothing to do with sitting or standing while working on a keyboard.
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You're welcome to believe that, and I'll even admit that my memory may be inaccurate, but my recollection of the research I've seen ([citation needed], admittedly) is that they controlled for other factors, in particular food and lifestyle choices. Which is to say, there's no doubt that food and lifestyle have an impact in those areas, but the research also seems to indicate that there's no doubt that sitting/standing for too long can have an impact in those areas as well.
Just because one cause is more comm
Re:yes. tried one. (Score:4, Interesting)
Humans are rarely really still. Crocodiles beat us handily in that department (and in no-rules mixed martial arts too, but I digress). "Thinking hard" also causes lots of semi-voluntary movements.
When sitting, in a chair with back support - these same movements largely get restricted to neck, feet, arms from elbows till finger tips, slight weight shift along the bottom. When standing, new possibilities open up.
It is not unusual to see standing desk people moving feet around - this feet movement is 20 times more energy intensive than sitting feet movement because the feet are supporting much more weight. Same goes for small bends in knee and ankle joints. Arms are also now free to move much more, even backwards. Torso bends when standing are more energy intensive too. People are also motivated to not keep paper, pen, odds and ends very close to the place of work, but arrange it at some distance such that it is 2-3 small steps to fetch them rather than "making a long arm" that people typically do in a sitting desk.
So simply switching sitting to standing does switch sitting issues to standing issues, but while moving larger parts of the body more frequently. Circulation and calorie consumption increase.
And yes, as you too agree, mixing these up and adding some walking is even better.
This Thread Has 152 Comments As I Type! (Score:3, Funny)
Why should 152 comments be allowed? The comments should have been closed after two.
Ask Slashdot: Have You Tried a Standing Desk?
Comment 1: Yes.
Comment 2: No.
Done.
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Need to be adjustable (Score:5, Interesting)
I worked for one year at a company which offers standing desks. I found them to be pretty nice. It was hard to gauge productivity, because it was also my only time in an open office, so there were lots of other distractions I wasn't used to.
I'm in my early 40's, and I'm starting to run into a variety of back problems from poor posture / poor back muscle tone, as well as carpal tunnel and medial nerve (funny bone) problems from the way I rest my arms on the desk when coding. A standing desk helps with pretty much all of those things, if it can be easily readjusted over the course of the day to accommodate you need to both sit and stand.
The biggest problem is that decent standing desks aren't cheap, and companies treat them like a luxury. I seriously think there's a case for OSHA forcing companies to offer adjustable desks to office workers. Unfortunately, national politics don't currently favor such actions becoming reality.
If I have enough negotiating power, I'll make a standing desk a requirement for any future job I take.
Re: Need to be adjustable (Score:2, Interesting)
My company also sells sit/stand adjustable desks. They run around 1k, but we only pay around $250 for the cheapest models. The markup on office furniture is insane, especially at the contract level. That being said, I have one at home. I also own a Steelcase Leap ergo chair. While I do occasionally use the desk in standing position, I find myself shifting my constantly. It feels better for me to have my desk adjusted to the proper height while sitting in my ergo chair than standing. Also note that my monito
Re:Need to be adjustable (Score:5, Interesting)
The darkly amusing punchline to this anecdote is that the guy who owns the factory & built his fortune with it has given millions of dollars to the local university to help them put up a new building for their school of medicine.
Re:Need to be adjustable (Score:4, Interesting)
I think that the adjustable standing desks are on over complicated solution to the problem.
Use fixed standing desk with a drafting stool.
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That's an interesting idea, but I think the problem with a drafting stool is that it pinpoints too much of my body weight on my rear end, rather than distributing it over the entire back of my thighs. That seems to cause problems with sciatica. A decent office chair with a large seat pan seems to be necessary to avoid that problem, at least in my case.
Re:Need to be adjustable (Score:5, Interesting)
I think that the adjustable standing desks are on over complicated solution to the problem. Use fixed standing desk with a drafting stool.
I just put milk crates under the desks - perfect height to change the standard sitting desk to a standing desk.
I don't think either sitting or standing is better, or less worse. As others have pointed out, it's maintaining static positions that cause problems in the long-term. I first noticed this years ago when smoking was less frowned upon (but banned indoors) - the people who smoked seemed to complain less of sore backs and seemed to maintain better postures. The non-smokers spent longer continuous periods at their desks (and the labs had standing desks). It's also an issue of eye strain from continuous focus at a fixed length - and mental productivity (hard to think long and hard while at a keyboard).
These days you can have a standing desk if you want - I'll put it up on milk crates. Yes it's perfectly stable and doesn't affect the adjustable keyboard/mouse section or the adjustable monitor stands. The chair slides underneath the raised desk. I've gone back to the old separate room for printers which encourages people to move away from their desks (as does banning drinks and food at desks). One thing I found that also helps is close access to an outdoor area that isn't one, unbroken open space, with only one access door - so if you have your head full of something you're working on you can walk outside without having to break your concentration. (obviously I don't follow people with a stopwatch).
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I agree with the outside area we have covered walks around the outside and a koi pond in the center courtyard. I try to take a short walk once a day.
The no drinking or eating? Okay with the no eating but no drinking is not cool. I like my cup of Mate handy while I work. Yes a walk can be a big help.
Re:Need to be adjustable (Score:4, Interesting)
I agree with the outside area we have covered walks around the outside and a koi pond in the centre courtyard. I try to take a short walk once a day.
Hours at the keyboard v.s. productivity at the keyboard is a tricky decision matrix to weight. Ideally I prefer people, myself included to average a ten minute break every hour and a half. It's a very short walk to outdoors - though this time of year it's fucking cold. If you walk out the nearest door you'll likely only see the person opposite you, if they go outside - which gives you the chance to keep track of what you were pondering on when you walked out. But you can walk around the dividing trellises and mingle if you want. Or not.
The no drinking or eating? Okay with the no eating but no drinking is not cool. I like my cup of Mate handy while I work.
Go outside and have a sip of your drink, and a think. That's the point - not so much concerned about keyboard spillages as being productive. RSI, eye-strain (hence the outside - look at the mountains and Parliament House in the distance over the paddocks) are side-benefits not primary goals.
Yes a walk can be a big help.
Health wise - no arguments (guessed - not the result of rigorous studies). Productivity is the main thing. NOTE: most of my staff are contractors - long and weird hours are pointless if unproductive. You want to nap - I don't care, as long as you meet the SLAs and deadlines you undertake (generally on a daily basic). You're free to swap stuff out of your ticket-queue to others.
Most of my staff are contractors (and friends) - you make a set rate based on the jobs and I get a percentage (8 - 10%) after costs to manage the jobs, the ticketing system, process payments,and provide equipment. If you want to work from home you can do that - as long as you spend one day a week based in the office, provide your own home equipment (https to the ticket-system) - I take 8% off the net.
These are not big ventures - the largest has 14 contractors, most of whom are part-time. Very informal, and if people don't work they just don't get work. So don't apply the same standards to wherever you work. Most of my competitors have a markup of 20-50% (and much more) and much higher margins. So they really couldn't give a fuck about productivity or health. For me, customer relationships are everything so I try and be flexible to keep good staff on. So sorry - no drinking at your desk - take a walk and think about it. Don't stress - you'll still get paid.
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> because it was also my only time in an open office, so there were lots of other distractions I wasn't used to.
I'm beginning to believe that switching to an open office is a first level manager tactic to increase headcount. Switch to an open office because it's a Shiny Object and there's company budget, watch production plummet, and then ask for more people to cover the shortage. Whether this turns into a downward spiral has not yet been decided.
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The biggest problem is that decent standing desks aren't cheap, and companies treat them like a luxury
Not a problem...build it yourself, as I did. Took an old TV cart I wasn't using any more, bought a few pieces of 1x4 and a few bolts, applied a bit of maker elbow grease, and now I've got a perfect solution, including a nice spar to mount a 28" monitor (to free up valuable desktop space). Hopefully your company will let you bring it in (not a problem for me, I work from home). Its not adjustable, but I just piled some books up to determine where the right desktop height should be, and then built to that h
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I've had a similar experience. Although I still have some back issues, for the most part, my posture, etc. have gotten much, much better since I've started standing. My standing workstation is a total hack job--basically a small, cheapy (non-standing) desk with some Ikea parts bolted on to it. It's hideous but I work from home as a contract worker and am on a budget, so it works just fine for that. To sit, I've got a backless bar stool thing (it's kind of an odd stool). Sitting in it matches the height of m
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Re:Need to be adjustable (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm in my early 40's, and I'm starting to run into a variety of back problems from poor posture / poor back muscle tone
Get to the gym. Get a trainer.
DL, squat, BP. Then DL and squat some more. Make sure you have a trainer that can force you to always do every rep properly.
Rinse. Repeat.
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I'm in my early 40's, and I'm starting to run into a variety of back problems from poor posture / poor back muscle tone, as well as carpal tunnel and medial nerve (funny bone) problems
I'm going to be another random guy on the internet with some advice:
A lot of very differing issues (can) trace back to cramped, too short or otherwise tight muscles. I used to have the symptoms of carpal tunnel syndrome (numbness, lack of strength, pain), induced by a combination of a lot of table football and a lot of coding. I know it sounds terribly cheesy, but my Kung Fu trainer taught me this little 'trick' to temporarily disable the lower arm (perpendicularly striking just 'above' the pointy bit of th
Gone the other way (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Gone the other way (Score:4, Funny)
We had a guy here with serious back problems. He had a doctor that recommended that he be allowed to have a couch in his office. I eventually found it prudent to knock loudly and wait a bit for him to wake up before entering his office to talk to him.
Yes, the $20 ikea hack. (Score:4, Informative)
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The solution is really simple. Just develop a habit of getting out of your chair for 5 minutes, stretch and walk around, pull your fingers and twist your body in every comfortable way you could while focusing on object hundreds of meters away. Make sure the blood is flowing by feeing it, and then only get back in
Re:Yes, the $20 ikea hack. (Score:5, Interesting)
Agreed. I found that static positions (no matter which kind, standing, sitting, laid down) are harmful in the long end. What I did to alleviate the issue:
- Got a wireless headset. During meetings, I walk around all the time, except when presenting something, of course.
- Got wireless mouse and keyboard. I can now shift positions in my chair easily
- Got used to above-mentioned position shifting. For example, I rotate my chair 180 degrees and lean forward on the back support, etc.
- Developed conscious realization of my static position. I learned to pay attention to what my body tells me. Whenever I get those signals, I shift position.
A Soviet comic once said (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're adding a treadmill, you'd better be $1K (Score:4, Insightful)
If you're adding a treadmill, you'd better be ready to spend more than a grand.
>> Have You Tried a Standing Desk?
Only when I've had to mash something into a console at a server rack. My solution to the whole "not sitting around" bit has been to avoid long stints in heads-down dev roles. Instead, I walk around a lot talking to people, go for walks/runs/bikes, park a good half-mile or more away from the office, etc.
Re:If you're adding a treadmill, you'd better be $ (Score:5, Funny)
So... you became a manager?
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>> So... you became a manager?
Bingo. I usually do that for a couple of years at a time (while coding side projects under the table), then switch back to corporate coding at a local innovator to stay somewhat fresh on emerging technologies, build trends, etc.
Standing / smoking / standing (Score:3, Informative)
I put together a standing desk from Ikea bits and pieces with a chair the allowed me to sit at the desk, stand, rest.
What I learned: Standing in one position all day, especially on a hard surface locks your knees and muscles. You need a soft surface, to stand on.
Being able to sit for some tasks and stand for others, is perfect. But you need awareness to switch between the them regularly and get away from your desk.
I could not stand a treadmill desk. It's essentially multi-tasking. It's like drinking coffee while walking.
So... it's not just one or other. It's balance...
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I agree. I find many tasks can be done standing up and I don't even think about what I am doing. However, if I have to work on a very complicated task I find I have a hard time concentrating or getting into it standing up and sitting works better for me. I was hoping that would improve over time. but after 9 months if it is complex and I have a problem concentrating, the problem goes away as soon as I am able to sit down.
I have a mat I use for a softened floor surface.
I work for a company that does aluminum
My back hurts (Score:3)
I can't stand for more than a couple of hours without my back hurting. Parking my ass back in my Aeron chair fixes it. Walking for long periods is a problem for me right now, too.
Must be broken. But if I had a standing desk, I'd just be looking for a stool to go with it right now
Re:My back hurts (Score:5, Interesting)
your problem is possibly down to sitting around too much, one day you'll be stuck in that chair 24/7. Not good.
the answer is to get up and start using those muscles that have forgotten what they're there for,
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Not necessarily.
Personally, my back hurts when I'm standing for 10 minutes, when doing my dish-washing.
Of course, the position is not really comfortable, but I have other problems:
1) I have flat feet, so the standing position is painful because it puts strains on my knees. I use insoles.
2) I have circulatory problems in my legs. My mother has the same problems, it became varices for her. I use compression socks
3) I have several herniated discs, so it puts pressure on the sciatic nerve when standing still.
I
I have a Stir M1 desk (Score:4, Interesting)
It's a nice desk, fashionable, well-made, holds plenty of weight without complaint. It schedules when I should stand up and sit down, and the "breathe" gentle reminder is effective without being obtrusive.
The biggest downside is that the sensor that detects whether or not you are standing next to it is extremely picky about distance. Apparently I often stand too close and so it doesn't always recognize that I'm there and credit me accordingly. Also, it would be better if it integrated with Apple's HealthKit in addition to their own cloud stuff. Do I really want data about when I'm at my home office desk to even exist, let alone be stored in the cloud? No - that's pretty much a "Let's figure out the best time to burglarize my house" toolkit.
rocking shoes (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been dabbling with standing desks a lot, and am getting to really like them, except that I find standing for extended periods considerably more uncomfortable than walking. I've considered doing the treadmill-desk thing, but don't really have the space for it. What I did find helps a lot is "rocker-bottom" shoes with thick curved soles such as Shape-Ups. The instability encourages me to be constantly moving and flexing my knees, drastically reducing the discomfort of standing still without requiring any expensive space-filling treadmills.
45 degree angle lean works for me (Score:2, Interesting)
I prefer the 135-degree angle slouch in a chair that can lean back [bbc.co.uk] over a standing desk. The ergonomics just can't be beat, especially when you consider what a standing desk does to your forearms (I see a lot of people with standing desks leaning on them).
No I didn't try one (Score:3)
But I have a bunch of dogs and other animals so even though I work from home now I get up quite a bit to walk around and see how things are doing. I find the dogs love me more than my desk.
Cardboard box (Score:5, Interesting)
My experience (Score:3)
I just lowered my standing desk (Score:5, Funny)
This is called "PHYSICAL LABOR".
It may be a foreign concept to you. If so, keep in mind that some symptoms of physical labor are muscle fatigue and pain after extended time.
Most people use the standing desk on/off. Some of them mostly use it off.
Also note that given that you are on slashdot during business hours. You might not feel comfortable using a standing desk - and the extra attention it brings - while looking at slashdot or other non-work related web sites.
A standing desk, if you use it consistently, will work in that it will keep you in better physical condition. But only if you are the kind of guy that will put up with PHYSICAL LABOR.
Most people that suddenly decide to try physical labor hate it and quickly quit. It's similar to a gym membership.
desk treadmill (Score:2, Informative)
go on craigslist, buy a cheap treadmill. You don't need a desk specific one. put a board across the treadmill arms and put your laptop/screen, keyboard and mouse on it. Adjust the height with some 2x4"s. set the speed at 1-2mph, any faster and you'll be concentrating more on walking than working. On conference calls, teh whine of the treadmill does go over the call, stop walking when talking.
worth it (Score:2)
Treadmill + board + trigger clamps = very good (Score:2)
We've got them.. (Score:2)
They're the kind that you can run up and down. They're great, as long as:
1) you have a soft surface ( padded matt, etc) to stand on.
2) you have the ability to change it up, so you can sit for maybe an hour spaced throughout the day.
no problem adjusting to it.
Yes, it's waaaaay better. But you need good shoes! (Score:2, Informative)
I switched to doing about 75-80% of my work standing up about two years ago. I stand for a half hour, lie down flat for 3 minutes. Rinse, repeat.
It will take a bit to get used to it, but I have more energy through the day, and just plain feel much better. When I'm in a situation where I need to sit all day now I really notice how much harder it is on the body.
Important point: You need GOOD SHOES. I have really comfy ergonomic sandals, makes a massive difference.
Inexpensive and versatile (Score:2)
ikea hack for over a year, will never go back (Score:5, Informative)
using the ikea LACK side table on top of my normal desk, which puts my keyboard and mouse right and hand-height. You can use a circular saw to cut the legs off to your exact specifications.
+ tall VIVO desk mount monitor stand, which raises the monitor & laptop to eye height.
+ hog heaven floor mat to stand on.
The rare times I need to sit, I just unplug my laptop and take it over to a chair. In theory, the monitor height is easily adjustable via a fast-latch, and the ikea stand can be removed, so within a minute I could be back to a normal desk - but i find the change of environment from disconnecting and moving to a separate space is more relaxing.
My lower back used to hurt CONSTANTLY, but since I've been standing it has been a night-and-day improvement. I can't recommend it enough. the transition period was surprisingly easy. I suggest taking your chair away completely for the first week or two - if it's nearby you will be tempted to cheat, and far more likely to give up, I think.
Do a sitting/standing treadmill desk! (Score:2)
I wrote an article about my solution. http://brightrocketdesign.com/blog/post/dont-just-sit-there-getting-fit-with-a-treadmill-desk
Got 'em at work - I hate 'em. (Score:3)
I'm on my feet all day anyway. When I need/want to do some paperwork, I want to SIT DOWN for a little while. Sitting may not be good for you, but standing on a concrete floor all day isn't much better.
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I agree. I've had jobs that required me to be on my feet, generally standing in one place all day, and my feet were killing me after 8 hours. That floor starts pushing back!
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Believe me, I cannot, will not stand in one place any more. I've done it, but never willingly. Today, if I had to stand at a work bench or something all day, I would quit. I can't do it.
That's just age though. A little over a year ago, the wife quit her job on an assembly line. They changed up the line, and she was going to have to run a screw gun again. She did it for years, but that metatarsal thing wore her down. She simply WAS NOT going to run a screw gun again!
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"It doesn't take a rocket scientist"
No, but it might take a rocket scientist to figure out that BOTH OPTIONS should be available. Hmmmm - how would that work? How 'bout a sturdy work surface, attached to some kind of sturdy arm, anchored to either the floor or the wall, adjustable to any height between about two feet off the floor to about five feet? A short, small person can probably sit cross legged on the floor, and work, and the tallest guy I've ever met could work comfortabley standing up. Throw a
I use a Geekdesk Max (Score:5, Informative)
Works very well. You can set it at any height you like. Not too expensive either, at least as compared to other motorized adjustable desks. I'm pleased with it overall.
Gravity is bad for you - waterdesk needed (Score:2)
How real is the risk? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Long periods of sitting have been known to be dangerous for a while. However, long periods of standing aren't necessarily better. Yes, we didn't evolve to sit in chairs all day, but we also didn't evolve to spend all day standing rigidly upright either. Varicose veins, knee damage, etc are all real issues with people who stand around all day.
This is another one of those cases where we collectively go: "A is bad. Therefore, !A is good." Then a decade or two later we realize that the new extreme is just as ba
I have a Kangaroo Elite. (Score:2)
Best desk I've ever had. So good I bought a second one for home use.
Want to stand? No problem. Want to sit? Go ahead, it takes five seconds to adjust.
It's nice and solid, is made in the USA, and comes pre-assembled.
http://www.ergodesktop.com/ [ergodesktop.com]
Had one for a little over a year (Score:2, Interesting)
My company raised my desk (at my request) to a standing level a little over a year ago. I'm a generally healthy (10 lbs overweight) 48 year old guy and like most engineers, I get very little exercise. I was suffering from back pain a lot at the time. I made a really cushy thing for my feet (standing mat on top of plywood on top of 1x2 spacers so I get the extra flex from the plywood).
I keep a bar stool at my desk and alternate between sitting and standing throughout the day - averaging probably about half t
Uplift 900 is pretty good (Score:4, Informative)
Keep in mind that at standing height, the desk does have a little bit of wobble, especially if you use the castor wheels. My monitor was unsafely wobbly and I had to use a wood clamp to clamp it to the desk for safety. Part of this is due to my monitor- for a 28" screen, the included stand has a small (too small) footprint and odd weight distribution. For most monitors this probably won't be a problem.
I tend to stand until after lunchtime, then sit the rest of the day, depending on how heavy a lunch I eat. My back problems from a car accident 2 years ago have nearly disappeared. Best feature of a standing desk is eating lunch- your lap isn't in the path of falling food objects. If there is a spill imminent, you can simply dodge out of the way. I haven't spilled lunch on my pants since I got the desk.
Been standing for years... (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a previous reply I made on the same subject:
I'm a coder who stands all day ...and I've been doing it for over two years now. I used to experience back pain when I sat all day, but that went away after a month or so. I used to get sleepy after lunch when I sat all day... not so much anymore. You really do get used to it. A few suggestions for those who want to try it:
1) Make the switch the first day you get back from a longer holiday and are already out of your normal routine.
2) You *must* get a nice floor mat, preferably a dense memory foam mat designed for standing cubes. Working in your socks (if your employer will let you) while standing on said mat almost feels like a foot massage.
3) Another *must* - don't get a desk-height chair! At least, not for a while. You'll find yourself sitting way too often and never get adjusted to standing all day. Most of my fellow "standing" co-workers that have tall chairs sit at least 80% of the time.
4) It takes a couple weeks to get used to standing. Stick with it.
Re:Been standing for years... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm a coder who stands all day ...and I've been doing it for over two years now. I used to experience back pain when I sat all day, but that went away after a month or so.
Interesting to hear your anecdote, but just wanted to make sure on something...do you keep your wallet in your back pocket? This results in a very significant percentage of men's back problems in office environments. My back pain went away when moving the wallet to the front pocket, no change in sitting/standing required.
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Mixed results here (Score:2, Interesting)
At my last workplace I converted an Ikea desk (forget the model name) to something that would work as a standing desk. I have CP that affects my legs, so throughout the day I would alternate between standing on an anti-fatigue mat and sitting on a stool that approached the desired height.
What I found was that alternating between sitting and standing was ideal, but that I couldn't always focus on certain types of tasks while standing. Anything that required a lot of my attention caused me to sit down... S
Re: (Score:2)
Anything that required a lot of my attention caused me to sit down... Stuff like coding or deep troubleshooting.
I've had similar experiences. When you have to concentrate deeply on something, it just is harder to get to the mindset while standing.
DIY-ish full adjustable electric (Score:4, Interesting)
I bought an electric adjustable height desk leg set (UpLift 900) from thehumansolution.com and bought a complete desk shell elsewhere for just the top (at quite a savings) in the size that I wanted. I like a deep desk and this one is 30". They've got even more options now for building your own desk including treadmills.
I found that standing didn't work out for me... however the adjustable height of the desk has made my sitting time far more comfortable and ergo.
over a decade standing up programming (Score:4, Informative)
Couple of thoughts:
1. Make it tall enough so you have to stand straight up and look straight ahead (not look down or up at your screen).
2. I like mine to be deep so the keyboard is far in and I can lay mt arms out on the desktop while typing. Hell, my son spent much of the first year of his life sleeping for hours on a pad on my desktop nestled between my arms, chest and keyboard while I worked.
3. Get a really tall drafters chair. While standing is nice; it also nice to be able to take a seat once in a while for a few minutes or while stuck on an exasperating conference call.
4. Get a small step stool or bucket or something that you can put 1 foot on at a time to bend one leg. This gives you a chance to rest one leg -- it really helps especially when getting started.
I used to have the common hunch of a programmer; switching to a standup desk fixed my posture so I stand up straight and don't have a hunch any longer.
Love it (Score:2)
Yes. We all have one. (Score:3)
Everyone at my small company has one. They aren't cheap, but neither are oscilloscopes, good computers, multi-monitor setups, office space, lab benches, etc.
Not everyone here adjusts them regularly, but I'd say around half of us do. It's good to adjust sit/stand posture multiple times a day. Also, for some workflows, we're in and out of our office / lab for multiple iterations and having the workspace at our standing height is just more convenient.
We also use the stand mode quite a bit for sharing / desk meetings / etc. I'm the one in charge of buying office furniture and it's unlikely we will buy anything else in the near future for office desks.
Yes, but had to stop (Score:3)
being tall is problematic.
For starters, I was not able to find any way with what I had at my disposal to setup a standing desk without having to look downwards all day long. Having your head tilted down all day is bad. The company doesn't want to buy us new monitors (I'm still on a 19in 4:3 Acer that only does VGA) and at the time, my laptop was too small to push far away. So I really had no means of being able to type comfortably, and look straight ahead at what I was doing.
Secondly, being 6'7 (200cm), standing up is a bit awkward in a cubicle environment. While cubicles are not 100% private, they at least offered some illusion of privacy. Standing up however, there is no question about it. You're pretty much out in the open. Kinda sucks to feel like everyone is looking at you.
So to get my standing, I just go out for a cigarette ;)
Sit/stand desk = best of both worlds (Score:3, Informative)
It's been absolutely astounding for my back - keeping my core body muscles shifting and moving all day is an absolute joy.
I thought I'd need to "work up to standing" but I pretty much hit 80-85% right out of the gate and it's stayed pretty consistent.
I absolutely love it and I'd encourage anyone that can afford to give it a swing - it'll cost yout about $500 to give it a try, a couple hundred more for the corner desk which gives you a lot more space for notebooks, reference material, etc.
I've used a standing desk full time for two years. (Score:3, Interesting)
I wouldn't go back. I have a standing desk at the office and my WFH space. At the office it was pretty easy because our cubes include adjustable work surfaces. For my office at home I built a standing desk with parts from IKEA for less than $250. It's basically a kitchen counter top on top of a bookcase. You need to make sure that you have the work space set up correctly with the keyboard and monitor at the proper height. With a standing desk you can't just keep slouching down.
Like any change a standing desk takes some getting used to for most people. I have been blessed with good posture and I have never had any back problems. Try it for a couple of hours at a time and work your way up. Make sure you're standing up straight, keep your arms at 90 degrees, and try to keep your monitor at a height where you can look straight ahead.
Beyond just standing, take frequent breaks to move around. Other posts on Slashdot have pointed out that frequent breaks and physical activity improve overall performance. Get off your ass, stand up straight and move.
Built own static version, and don't forget anti fa (Score:2)
Also, I've heard to make sure you have anti fatigue mats for your feet. Mine were 6 bucks at Harbor Freight (only using 2 of 4).
I started last October just trying it out, and could only stand for and hour or two at a time. I just moved
Yep. Very happy with them (Score:2, Interesting)
I updated my work station about 2 years ago, and the wife wanted hers about 3-4 months later. I rarely use it in the sitting mode anymore, but I do really like being able to adjust the height to it isn't in the same position all the time.
I do have a nice mat because I like to roam around barefoot at home and more than a couple hours straight on hardwood without shoes made my feet unhappy. With decent shoes I never had an issue.
I went with an UPLIFT from http://www.thehumansolution.com/uplift-900-electric-
It works for these guys (Score:2)
http://i.imgur.com/4XCcwQa.gif... [imgur.com]
.
Re: (Score:2)
sounds familiar (Score:2)
Standing and sitting, under desk treadmills, this sounds familiar... Oh yeah, The Zero Theorem.
All depends on your body (Score:3)
I am mid-40's with back and sciatica problems and also recovering from recent laparoscopic surgery. I have been using a balance ball as my chair for 8 years, which worked for me pretty well up until a few months ago. (Now sitting hurts.)
I find I lose my ability to concentrate while standing-- I don't have the deep-focus time I used to get. I also need to have something to lean on periodically (bar height chair from ikea works). For me, the "zero-g" chairs aren't any good; not sure if it is a height thing or what. Locking your knees defeats the benefits of standing to some degree, and you really need to properly contract your abs to brace your spine. A treadmill would not help me personally.
The best advice seems to be to be at a healthy weight, have a strong core and actively engage it in whatever position you are in, change positions regularly, and find an excuse to walk around regularly throughout the day. There is no substitute for excercise though.
Stand and shift, don't walk (Score:2)
Has anyone tried sitting on the floor? (Score:4, Interesting)
I've always wondered about sitting on the floor with a pad and no back, and treating it like a meditative posture (so keeping a straight back is paramount). Has anyone tried this for work?
If not, has anyone spent a considerable amount of time meditating on the floor? I'm wondering if it's still stressful on your back a
No (Score:3)
I wouldn't want to try one. For one, standing still for long hours isn't that good for you, either. For another, that's a *great* idea, now management can make your working/living space even smaller (Dilbert's old Velcro on your back, and hang you on the wall coming, soon).
Then there's those of us with other issues, like my arthritis.
I'm waiting for the introduction of not only treadmills under the desk, but have them generate electricity, so you produce ROI doubly.....
And ergonomics? I sit with my keyboard in my lap, several feet from my monitors. The way my cube's aligned, I can't really put my feet on the desk, but that meets all those ergonomic criteria, y'know, with wrists supported, monitors straight ahead....
mark
Ikea Bekant (Score:3)
I got the Ikea Bekant http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S99022526/ [ikea.com]; it's great, solidly built, and less than $500US. I used a felt pen on the legs to mark my optimum sitting and standing heights so that I don't have to take five minutes fine-tuning the height every time I change heights (which would have guaranteed that I would never change the height!).
Sometimes I change multiple times a week, sometimes multiple times a day. It's great.
Sit-Stand desk FTW!!! (Score:3)
I have an electric sit-stand that I cobbled together from a nice Ikea top and an old (hideous) electric sit-stand desk we found on Craigslist.
Standing gets old, sitting does too. Need to be able to move the top up and down to get the best of both worlds.
You'll really want a cable tray, and a couple long outlet bars for the back of it. You're screwed if you don't manage cables and provide power that floats up and down with you. Monitor arm helps, too - I like Ergotrons. I mount my KVM switch, my USB and Gigabit Ethernet hubs, my Thunderbolt dock sub-surface, so they're handy, but invisible, also float up and down with the desktop.
Check the min and max heights on your legs before you buy - wish my Craigslist model was just a teense taller, but it suffices.
There are nice motorized legs online for sale without desktops. My wife bought a set of these - they have memories for different height positions. She custom-stained a design into her own unfinished wood desktop before sealing it. Beautiful. She runs with a designed-for-desk treadmill she integrated into the whole affair.
Good chair for the sit times is a cherry on top. I have a used Aeron.
Individual taste (Score:3, Interesting)
Like most desks-with-chairs, the ideal work environment is going to be unique to the person and to the task.
I find writing with a paper and pen or typing for less than a few minutes at a time easier to do if I don't have to change my standing or sitting mode. I find doing the same for between a few minutes and about half an hour somewhat easier to do sitting down than standing. If I'm writing or typing more than half an hour I'm probably going to take a break anyways.
I find it uncomfortable to stand more than 6-8 hours a day or more than 1-2 hours without a 20-30 minute sit-down break, but that's just me. When I was in better physical shape (read: when I was a teenager), I could do stand-up work in a restaurant all day with just a sit-down break for meals.
As far as which stand-up desk/workstation will work best for me? I'm not sure. Given my current job requirements, I doubt any would be as good as an ordinary adjustable sit-down office chair and a typical office computer desk. I'm almost certain your job requirements are not exactly the same as mine so your ideal work environment will very likely be different as well.
Kangaroo Elite (Score:3)
My work provided me with one of these [ergodesktop.com] as their standard standing solution. It's not motorized, but it has pistons to assist raising/lowering that makes it relatively easy. Changing positions takes about 30s as I have to move my keyboard and mouse from the keyboard tray to the adjustable work surface.
The only cons are that it takes a bit of time to get set up correctly as you have to place a couple of stop screws to set the maximum height. It's also a little difficult to adjust the horizontal spacing on the monitor mounts (I have a 2-display setup). Other than that, it works great!
They're Great (Score:3)
I've been trying to get my current employer into using them after having a great time with adjustable standing desks at my last employer. I sat roughly 2 hours a day, but I was regularly up-and-down (about as frequent as people who take breaks regular).
What I don't see here is how well it works for impromptu meetings. You can get a lot more people around modern multi-monitor rigs than before, and there's no thinking about it: suddenly you're presenting to 5 peers in a meeting planned only seconds ago, and everyone is comfortable & can see the screen.
BTW, Ikea has an electronically-adjusted standing desk for $489: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/cata... [ikea.com]
Net benefit of standing desks unconfirmed. (Score:4, Interesting)
The science to it is basically this: When sitting, your metabolism slows, you burn less calories, and all the fun that goes with that - higher likelihood to be overweight, thus higher blood pressure, cardiac issues, and so on. We have studies that prove this too.
So, don't sit right? Well, standing isn't very good for you either, not for long periods of time. We're lacking any really hard science on what the optimal time period really is, although we know that it's variable depending on the person. We do know that you're more at risk for immediate health problems from long periods of standing rather than sitting (which results in longer term, less immediate issues). For example, even with a soft gel mat, after a few weeks, one stander ended up with medical conditions. [seattletimes.com]. They're not just an anomaly either; back pain, carotid atherosclerosis - a circulation issue, varicose veins, pinched nerves, and more [nih.gov] are associated with long periods of standing.
The fact is that we don't really know how much standing is enough to ward off the dangers of sitting, and worse, we don't know how much standing is too much and will result in health problems. There's probably an optimal healthy point, but we don't have any studies that show where that optimal healthy point is on average, much less how it needs to be adjusted for an individual.
It's also important to note that positive claims associated with standing desks that are not associated with physical well-being, such as increased mental capacity, creativity, memory, attentiveness, productivity and so on, are largely due to recirculating personal anecdotes, which we know carry a strong bias and use no objective measures for comparison. What few studies there have been show no evidence of benefit, nor of detriment. In a obvious note though, they show that treadmill or cyling desks DO reduce attention and productivity by a significant amount, and they haven't been shown to result in any impressive health gains either - users average weight loss of only about 3 lbs a year [workwhilewalking.com], for example, and that's about the only study you'll find on the subject!
What this all means is that, scientifically speaking, advocating for the health benefits of a standing desk is about the same as advocating for the health properties of barefoot running [sportsscientists.com], clay cleansing [dailyburn.com] (or really any cleanses, including charcoal, pickle juice, and others), and the whole genre of fad diets.
There's no scientific proof that shows they are a net benefit, which means you shouldn't assume they provide one. They are just standard junk science until then - taking a fact or finding and running with it past the point and on to speculation and pure fantasy. In fact, these are more akin to the fad diets, in that you're not only not gaining a benefit, you're that much more likely to cause harm to yourself. Standing desks are the new fen phen.
If you're worried about staying healthy, skip the fads and just add an exercise plan to your day. Take a 40 minute walk at lunch. Maybe workout a few times a week. Eat healthy, but more important in most western countries, eat a proper portion size. That's all it really takes.
Using One Now (Score:4, Interesting)
A couple years ago I got a demo of an Ergotron adjustable arm, and have been using it every since. I like it a lot, but it isn't without its flaws.
First off, make sure you have an anti-stress mat to stand on. When I first started to use the arm, my feet became really sore. Standing all day on what was essentially a concrete floor with a few millimeters worth of "carpet" was too hard on my soles. The anti-stress mat relieved that completely.
Second, once you stand and raise your computer screen, you now have to raise everything else with it. This likely won't be an issue if your entire desk surface is up high, but whereas I have an arm that mounts to a normal desk it is something I've had to deal with. My keyboard, mouse, and monitors are at standing level, but my phone and anything else on my desk is down where I have to reach for it. Being in IT support, my primary computer (Windows) is on the arm while my secondary (MacBook) is on a stand on a box.
Third, standing takes getting used to, and eventually you will stand most of the time. However, sometimes you will want to sit. You'll want to have an option to sit down, whether it's an adjustable desk/arm or you can go somewhere else and work for a time.
Finally, and this is an issue mainly for my current solution with a desk-attached arm, be sure your desk/arm can hold everything you want. My Ergotron arm model is capable of dual displays, but the 23" Dells I use strain the weight limit of the arm. If I add anything more with any appreciable weight, the arm sinks down to the desk.
Overall I like my solution, and will not go back to a sitting-only desk.
Use a Walking Desk, Not a Standing Desk (Score:3, Interesting)
I've been using a Lifespan 1200 walking treadmill with an appropriate height desk for about 2 years and did a standing desk for about 6 months before that. The walking desk is easier on your feet and burns more calories (directly from walking and indirectly via reduced 'resting state' time). Shoes required are very different - standing requires firm ankle support with a multi-layer sole & insole combination, while walking requires high quality shoes that limit your side-to-side foot roll.
Unfortunately, this program doesn't come cheap. You can spend $1500 for a desk & treadmill combination. (Much less if you want a crappy setup that you won't happy with, or with custom-built setup that you create yourself). Insoles replacements can add up, though shoe costs are not a problem long term if you buy high quality expensive shoes to start.
If you want absolute low cost, skip the desk and focus on frequent natural movements & a simple diet of the essentials. A rigorous exercise program can make you very fit, but won't give the long term cardio benefits of walking. Strength training will increase muscle mass that will increase your caloric load, but it doesn't give any cardio benefits at all. Diet only can eliminate the problems of weight and nutritional imbalances, but doesn't improve your cardio.
Combine a desk program with an intelligent nutritional plan (the correct nutrients at the correct time, with the correct caloric load) and you can lose a lot of weight. (I lost 100 lbs in two years.) After you reach ideal weight, you will likely find yourself consuming as much calories as what made you overweight. (If you do this, make sure you will stick with the the walking desk regimen long term for the health benefits, if you go back to sitting again, you just put yourself on the yo-yo diet program.
Cheaper options (Score:3)
I've got a couple of problems that prevent me from running out to buy a standing desk:
* I'm 6'4" - just about past the upper limit for some standing desks, from what I hear;
* I've worked as a contractor for large parts of my recent professional life, quite mobile including laptop - you get to sit at whatever workspace is assigned to you, and this may change at a moment's notice.
Some chairs really do make the lower half of my body pain after a while, so I'm all for standing (part of the time, at least). What worked for me in the past is to stick an empty cardboard box under the laptop - and another one under the monitor, if a separate one has been provided. Cheap, and fairly easy to move aside when you want to sit down for a while.
The arms parallel and monitor at eye level didn't work, obviously, but even so it was quite comfortable and helped to alleviate the chair's insult to my butt.
A colleague at one more permanent place used boards and bricks to build a higher platform on his desk (days before standing desk came into fashion).
You might want to try something like that out first before shelling out money. But chances are good you are going to like it.
been standing for 3 years (Score:3, Interesting)
bad:
- I get frustrated more easily when coding. I often find that I have to leave my desk and pace around more often
- not comfortable
- I want to leave my desk a lot, which is bad for wearing headphones. get wireless headphones.
good:
- I don't feel tired after lunch. in general, if you're already tired, it's much easier to stand and be alert than sit and be alert
- my back feels great. I find myself unable to maintain even remotely decent posture while sitting, but I find it easier to straighten my back when standing
- I sort of absentmindedly wander around the room while thinking. This keeps me moving which is good, and I think better while pacing anyway, for some reason
- at the end of the day I feel like I've done actual *work* and I find it easier to get to sleep at a reasonable time.
Overall, it's definitely worth it.
Good Experience for the past two years (Score:3, Interesting)
I am working at my desk for 10h+ per day. After I started my freelance work in my own office and a longer period of sickness due to back problems, I searched for the same topic. In the end, I got an electric standing-sitting-desk base for around 500 bucks and put a 2,5m tabletop on myself - the prebuilt and "professional" electronic tables were 1k+ for the cheapest and that was too much money back then.
I switch positions a few times a day between sitting, standing and standing/sitting on a bar stool (according to the research I read before buying, it's not the sitting that hurts you most - it's staying in the same position for too long). Also, I now put 3 small water bottles with magnesium on the table and try to drink them over my workday - helps concentration and creeping dehydration and forces you to move due to natural urges.
Also, I've just bought a new office chair due to my height, because the previous one simply did not support my neck in any way. With the new one, I also have a nice headrest and can really switch between relaxation through sitting and muscle activation through standing.
However, buying fancy furniture does not help by itself. You also need to do some sort of sport to train your muscles (preferably a team sport, because of the naturally diversified activation of muscles throughout your body) and you should do some reading on ergonomic desk setup. At one of my previous employers, I was sick for a few weeks due to a wrong combination of desk height and monitor arrangement. That lead to a wrong positioning of my neck, which in turn resulted in an inflamed nerve center - not nice.
TLDR: Do yourself a favor and get a matching chair and electric table matched on your height and weight, check your desk setup and remember to get into some sport-routine.
Forearms parallel, low-profile mouse (Score:3)
I have always pushed my monitor as far away from my face as possible, so that I can rest my entire forearms flat on the desk (not just the wrists or elbows), to write, code, or mouse.
Also, I only use low-profile mice, meaning that my wrists are always resting on the desk's surface, not bridged to accommodate a high-backed mouse. This allows mousing by motion of the fingers alone. Track-pads are even better. Our wrists provide range of rotation and bending — they are not good for fine-motor control actions. Our fingers are for fine-motor dexterity actions, such as mousing: Mouse with your hand & fingers, not your wrists!
These two modifications have saved me from any discomforting symptoms after three decades of spending both work and free time in front of computers.
The rub is this approach is this:
* Back muscles need-not support the arms to mouse or type.
* Fore-arm muscles need not be used to mouse or type.
* With a laptop track-pad, you can do everything without ever lifting your wrists from rest on a surface.
The Result: No gorilla arm.