Ask Slashdot: How Do You Deal With Unreasonable Companies? 159
New submitter Ash-Fox writes: I recently ran into troubles trying to get reasonable quality of support from an anti-virus vendor, where they are attempting to cop-out of providing any reasonable support and then refusing to offer refunds under the guise of their EULA does not allow it. However, their EULA does not implicitly say that they cannot provide refunds in other circumstances, as the support tries to imply, and further living in Europe (as is the anti-virus headquarters), this EULA for sales is only valid if that was provided as the terms of sales contract, which it was not. How do other Slashdotters look to address companies that behave poorly and seek to only provide at best their minimum legal requirements?
monopolies (Score:5, Funny)
Re:monopolies (Score:5, Funny)
And then we accept political donations from them in order to permit their monopolies to persist.
"living in Europe" (Score:5, Informative)
1) Report them to the Better Business Bureau
2) Report them to the Attorney General's Office
3) File a lawsuit, either in small claims court or regular court, as appropriate
Alas, he spoke the magick words "living in Europe".
Re: (Score:1)
Complain on Twitter.
That way, the whole world can see what happened.
As a prestep, make sure that your not asking for something unreasonable. If you were, the whole world would see that also.
Re:"living in Europe" (Score:5, Funny)
I complained about a flat soda that was in one of my 12 packs on twitter... No response. :(
You should stop buying Every Twelfth Can is Flat brand soda.
A question (Score:2)
Do you think that the execs were appalled that you were treated that way (and so at least some correction may have happened) or they treated you as someone more tenacious than usual who needed to be satisfied fast? Third option: legal implications not from the company's behavio(u)r, but the execs ignoring the complaint/situation?
Re:"living in Europe" (Score:4, Interesting)
That's even better - it means he just has to file a complaint under the Sale of Goods Act or equivalent enforcement agency which actually has teeth to force the company to respond.
Re: "living in Europe" (Score:2)
That applies to individuals, not companies. If you represent a company then it's a court decision.
The most powerful way is to publish the name of the company with the story in questiom.
Re:"living in Europe" (Score:5, Informative)
(1) Name and Shame on Social media
(2) Name and Shame on Slashdot
(3) Assuming you paid by credit card - go through the process of getting the transaction reversed
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He asked how OTHER Slashdotter dealt with it, not how he should. Learn to read.
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1- BBB is worthless
2- AG only works if they screw over a bunch of people in general in your state
3- small claims is the way to go get a default judgment and get it enforced
but since the OP lives in Europe, none of this applies.......
Re: Simple (Score:1)
I simply stop doing business with them.
If serious money is at issue, I exact retribution if I can.
I find social pressure worldwide helps (Score:2)
There's nothing like having customers and potential customers worldwide all applying pressure on a firm to make them wake up and change their behavior.
Any social media. Everywhere. Unceasing.
Since the playing field is no longer level, it's unwise to try to bargain, but wise to accept their total surrender.
try this (Score:5, Informative)
I'd phone them, make sure you're talking to someone a few levels up not just a tier-1 monkey, tell them your story and ask them nicely for a refund, and tell them that if they still say no then you have no option but to take them to small claims court and will also smear their name all over the internet.
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take them to small claims court
Laughable if they're local to him. Not even possible if they're not in the same state.
and will also smear their name all over the internet.
Either they won't be afraid of that because they're stupid, or they won't be afraid of that because they know he's nobody, and nobody will care. Or they'll sue him for extortion.
Re:try this (Score:5, Informative)
From the summary - "...living in Europe...". As imperialistic as the US is, and as parochial as many of it's citizens are, I'm pretty sure there aren't any "states" involved in this situation. And if you're using "state" to refer to a European nation's political subdivisions, it appears you're wrong. [europa.eu]
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He's in the EU, where unlike the US, the system actually does defend citizens against greedy corporations.
Re:try this (Score:5, Interesting)
The debt collection company was trying to collect a student loan debt from someone who only shared my first name. The collection company started calling and when ever I would answer there wouldn't be anyone on the line. When they would call caller ID would always list the caller as "Toll Free Call" and when looking up the number online I didn't see anything indicating who was calling. When I would answer the phone I would inform them that this is harassment, that they have been told previously to never contact me ever and that I am informing them to never contact me again. I started recording the calls (video recording) and after having them call me multiple times in the same day and being told the line above. After about a week of this and after the day when they called me 4 times and were told I filed a complaint with the MN State Attorney General seeking relief and providing what limited information I had received. A few days later the Attorney General's Office responded and provided detailed information on the company and information on who else I should be filing a complaint about a shit bag debt collection company. Additionally the Attorney General's Office had sent a demand to the company indicating that they were to no longer contact me that also demanded that they respond to an inquery now started by the Attorney General's Office.
So at that point I filed complaints with the CFPB and MN Department of Commerce. A day later I received confirmation that the CFPB had contacted the debt collector and that they were to no longer contact me by phone. Unfortunately the debt collection company disregarded this and continued to call for a couple of more days. This caused me to file additional complaints with the CFPB and MN Department of commerce about their continued harassment at this point as well as forwarding all of this information to the Attorney General's Office. A bit later I get a response through the CFPB from the debt collector in which they provided all of the information they had on the loan including the loan application (this included mother's maiden name, previous addresses current addresses, employer at the time, wage information, social security number, banking information), copy of the person's drivers license, copy of their social security card, and a letter directed to me informing me that I had 7 days to to work out payment details otherwise they would be suing me and seizing my assets. The problem is that the information I provided to the CFPB clearly demonstrated that I was not the actual owner of this debt, which they could have figured out from public records even before hand having never been in the states where the person who the debt belonged to, not ever having a drivers license from that state, having a different middle and last name, having a different birth date (over 15 years different), and attending a different school. In their letter they also indicated that they had no record of me ever answering the phone let alone being told to never call me as well as stating that they never called me after being contacted by the CFPB.
I responded to their letter with one of my own informing them that any attempt to collect this debt from me by them or any other company I will view as an attempt to defraud me and that I would also consider them a co-conspirator in the action and would be filing a criminal complaint. I explained to them that they had broken the law several times including their outright lies and that I had recorded a number of their calls and can provide evidence showing that I had told them multiple times to never contact me in the same day as well as provide evidence of them continuing to call me after being to
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and it's tough shit if you used a debit card
In the UK and, I believe, the rest of the EU, debit card payments are protected under the same guarantees as credit card. You can also take the company to the small claims court. The only company that I've dealt with that's made me even consider going to this length was Dell. Apple, for example, replaced a battery for me out of warranty because it had not survived the number of charge cycles that their advertising claimed and I mentioned the Sale of Goods Act (now replaced by stronger protections in the
Re:try this (Score:4, Interesting)
Dell is awful when it comes to reasonability.
The 3D card on my out-of-warranty Alienware laptop died. Okay, I figured I'd just go onto Dell's web site and buy a replacement. Strangely enough, there wasn't one. I called them up, and they said that they were available, but I'd have to pay for a technician to come over and replace it. Or, I'd have to ship my laptop to Florida. They refused to sell the card by itself.
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Re:try this (Score:5, Interesting)
I pay $50 a month for an assigned parking space in my apartment's underground garage. Several years ago, the building management painted all the walls in the garage, and stenciled stall numbers for each stall... Except for mine, and 3 adjacent stalls. I don't know why they omitted the stall number for just those few. Maybe they ran out of paint, and then just forgot to follow up.
I made a couple of requests to the rental office to have the numbers placed on my stall, but to no avail. The stalls were unnumbered for about a year.
One night, I arrive home, pull into my garage, and find another car (it was the first of the month - a brand new tenant) parked in my stall. I wrote up an official sounding note, making it look like it came from the building management company, notifying the offending car owner that they were illegally parked in stall #20, and that their license plate number has been recorded, and they will be fined $50. Any questions, ask at the rental office.
Sadly, I wasn't present in the office when that new tenant tried to explain to the building management staff that the stall wasn't even numbered. The next day, the remaining stalls (including mine) were stenciled with proper numbers. That's all I ever wanted anyway!
THE MORAL OF THE STORY: If you ask nicely, and nothing gets done, use their own customers against them.
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It reminds me of a story my dad told me about what a Jewish landlord told him what he does when he cant get someone to admit they owe him rent money.
He emails them a bill with an obvious mistake (like double the money or much too long rent period), so when they email him back to say he made a mistake and that they actually only owe $xxx, he's now got all the evidence he needs.
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First thing I do and it has nothing to do with unreasonable companies is calculate the looses and how much time and effort I am willing to expend in recovering those losses. There is also the psychological impact, of how much satisfaction would be gained by forcing a reasonable outcome after the unreasonable interaction, even if the cost is higher than the return, sometimes you just have to, else you become a victim again. Then there is the fiscal suffering you can cause the unreasonable company and how mu
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My point was that too many Americans are happy to value their time in terms of cash value and if its more than the cash loss they walk away.
Its actually a very selfish point of view, in that leaves society as a whole worse off.
You have already done it. (Score:2, Informative)
If they are meeting "their minimum legal requirements" then you have no recourse, nor should you, other than choosing to terminate your business with them. You have done so, end.
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There is still advising everyone you know (even people you internet know) to avoid them.
As part of a State Entity (Score:1)
Re: Seriously? (Score:2)
Shhhh. He's going to post it on Twitter. ;p
Re: Seriously? (Score:1)
You aren't reasonable (Score:1)
It has been my experience that people who use the word reasonable, and use it a lot like you did, are the most unreasonable people on the planet. If you've made demands that you "feel" are "reasonable" (and I put that in quotes because a feeling is all it is- there's no reasoning involved) and the vendor doesn't agree, then your one and really only solution is to get a lawyer and sue. If you don't think that is justified (and most will use the financial excuse), then I guess that feeling wasn't that reaso
Re: You aren't reasonable (Score:2)
It's beta code for an OS that came out last week, something unsupported by the vendor. It doesn't work with AV and you want a refund. https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-... [microsoft.com]
I agree, you should move to another vendor. Do Avast a favor.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Nuke them from the orbit. (Score:1)
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find their cable plant and stick pins in their gigabit ethernet cables.
then ask again if they will give you a refund.
(notsureifserious.jpg)
So I was gonna rant about your lack of detail (Score:5, Insightful)
1. It's not built-in functionality
2. It's in beta (as of 8/10/2016) - Bash on Ubuntu on Windows [microsoft.com] && Installation Guide [microsoft.com]. This is only available to a specific subset of Windows users (eg Windows Insiders Program).
Disclaimer: "This is the first release of Bash on Windows and it is branded "beta" deliberately - it's not yet complete! You should expect many things to work and for some things to fail! We greatly appreciate you using Bash on Windows and helping us identify the issues we need to fix in order to deliver a great experience."
You can't expect 100% compatibility with something still in beta. There are broken things and things that will be changed. Expecting Avast to work with it right now or refund you for a beta-product is unreasonable. Maybe common handles things differently than civil law in this case. I know Europe has better consumer protections in many many ways than the US, but I can't see where anyone would reasonably expect a refund or extensive support for a beta add-in when the product works perfectly with production level software (aka Win 10).
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Marking a paid product as "beta" is a clever loophole to prevent dissatisfied users from getting a refund!
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Too bad the Anniversary Update was free, and the product is the operating system, not the Linux subsystem that still can't be used unless you're a Windows Insider running in Developer Mode (the penultimate beta, the ultimate being a strictly closed beta).
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Dear DRJlaw,
We hereby inform you that Windows Insider version of our software is what the outside world calls alpha version.
First release version of our software is the beta stage.
Service Pack 1 (or even 2 in some cases) is what outsider would call the finished product.
Signed,
Your friendly Microsoft CEO
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Dear Satya,
The feature is branded "beta," deliberately. [microsoft.com] Read the FAQ [microsoft.com]
Signed,
Actual Microsoft product page
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As between you and the Microsoft installation guide [microsoft.com], updated two days ago, I'm deeming the installation guide more credible.
Prerequisites
1. Windows 10 Anniversary Update - build 14393 Available as of 8/2/2016
2. x64-based processor
3. Your PC must have an AMD/Intel x64 compatible CPU
4. You must be a member of the (free) Windows Insider Program (Preferably Fast-Ring)
5. Your PC must be running a 64-bit version of
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It is an official release from MS, even if they're not yet willing to call it a final release. It doesn't sound like it's going to go away. This isn't some 3rd party something he's trying to bolt on.
It may not be Avast's fault MS surprised them with this feature, but it wouldn't hurt them to at least show a little concern about the situation. For example, by making an internal inquiry with the developers (after all, it's unlikely that only one user in the whole world will ever try the new feature). They hav
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As between you and the Microsoft installation guide [microsoft.com] [microsoft.com], updated two days ago, I'm deeming the installation guide more credible.
Prerequisites
1. Windows 10 Anniversary Update - build 14393 Available as of 8/2/2016
2. x64-based processor
3. Your PC must have an AMD/Intel x64 compatible CPU
4. You must be a member of the (free) Windows Insider Program (Preferably Fast-Ring)
5. Your PC must be running a 64-bit version of Windows 10 Anniversary Update build 14316 or later
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It's not remotely so. They've created a new subsystem and introduced picodrivers and picoprocesses [microsoft.com] to enable the use of Linux binaries.
Two choices... (Score:2)
You can encourage creation of multiple software vendors so that the competition between them keeps them all user-friendly and honest.
Or you can declare a "market failure" and establish a single-payer anti-virus protection for all — even the poorest and the otherwise disadvantaged.
Up to you, really...
how do you know it's not Bash? (Score:3)
customer retention specialist != technical support (Score:5, Insightful)
That's really the central problem from what you've posted. You need technical support so a ticket can get opened in whatever 3rd world coding farm they have outsourced the product to. Seeing that your support request is being handling by someone who's title says "customer retention" means you will never get a refund, and your issue will never be resolved. That's just not what they are there to do. On the org chart they probably roll up to the sales group.
Cut your losses and move on.
Re: (Score:2)
Avast is known to be a company that commits fraud on a daily basis [avastscam.com]. His chances of getting a refund are about the same as getting a refund from the Nigerian prince.
That being said, the CEO of Avast does keep track of the press, so his chances of getting a refund now are pretty high simply because his story made the front page of Slashdot.
I never have this problem (Score:4, Insightful)
I recently ran into troubles trying to get reasonable quality of support from an anti-virus vendor
rotfl, I can't imagine getting much support at all for that.
How do other Slashdotters look to address companies that behave poorly and seek to only provide at best their minimum legal requirements?
I don't buy proprietary software.
Not doing business, and public posting (Score:5, Insightful)
Not doing business with them again is a start, but honestly one of the things I've found is that some businesses who do some *amazingly* bad support/PR, also seem to have public walls on their Facebook pages. I've had decent luck getting some response from businesses by posting a detailed summary of my issues on their wall.
Be nice, switch vendors, publicity, lawyer. (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Be nice to them. Occasionally this gets you better service.
2. Know what your agreement says. Insist on following it.
3. Plan to switch vendors. At least be ready to. If a problem repeats itself or a second one arises, pull the trigger.
4. Publicity. Parent is right; a lot of places will have issues on their public wall or twitter feed get elevated support. Many of these places will only pretend to elevate support in public and then will ignore you, but sometimes they actually follow through.
5. Call a lawyer. Even just a quick letter from a lawyer often makes a difference.
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Not doing business with them again is a start
Not doing business in the first place is even more effective. Do it yourself, and you won't get ripped off. If you fail, you get spin it however you want and you're guaranteed to be right. Are you sure you need to pay money for pixels, or to flip bits?
You're trying too hard (Score:2, Insightful)
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Cancellations, threats and legal action (Score:5, Insightful)
Pretty much in that order:
- You cancel whatever service you have with them so they get no further money if you can legally do so.
- You threaten them with cancellation, non-renewal or no further sales - most smaller companies will bend over backwards to maintain clients
- You threaten with social pressure (trade groups, other departments or companies you have ties with, social media)
- You go for legal action. In European countries this is a heck of a lot easier as consumer protections are baked into the law even if you have contracts saying otherwise. In the US you have fewer protections but small claims is often viable for small companies even if you can't recover the whole sum. If you have a legal team staffed, talk to them about your options but unless you do jury trials are usually too expensive unless you get a class action going.
Don't EVER use social media or other publishing options to outline issues you have with a company. It's too easy for a big company to bully you with lawsuits and you may say something that's not strictly true or legal or even shows you violated a clause or your contract. All communications from your company should go through a lawyer.
Mention their name! Avast! Dispute the charge. (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't mention "reasonable quality of support from an anti-virus vendor" instead identify them by name and repeat it often!
I don't know if your credi card or local provides it, but here in the USA, you can dispute quality of product if it is purchased in your state or within 50 miles of home. Your home computer is within 50 miles of home.
But, when disputing the charge make it simple, "when I install it, it breaks my computer." When I remove it, it works perfectly."
Debt collectors don't like robo calls either... (Score:5, Interesting)
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My solution was to get several bigger sticks that will make their life more difficult than anything I could do on my own.
I had a couple of debt collectors that I complai to the state attorney general about. I got a letter from one out of state attorney general informing me that the consumer affairs division no longer had authority to investigate debt collectors due to a recent change in state law My bankruptcy attorney had to send a cease and desist letter to the debt collector.
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I would have thought that you cou
Find who Regulates them (Score:3)
Make a complaint to the member of staff you're dealing with, if they're inadequately dealing with this then ask for a manager. If they then fail to deal with this properly within the required time then make a complaint to the professional body they're a member to, and then to their regulatory body.
I Don't. (Score:5, Insightful)
You are talking about somewhere between $50-$100, right? You walk away from it, and realize that your time could (HOPEFULLY?) be better spent on more productive things.
When a small store gave me incorrect change, and was unpleasant about the correction of that error, I walked away and never came back. Anything else would have not been worth my time. Unless you want to turn this into a hobby, I suggest you take a similar approach. Whenever anyone asks me about that store, I tell them a similar story, and advise them to go to a different store. That alone cost the store far more than when they jacked from me on my change. It was the store owner that robbed me.
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...and that way AVAST wins, you send them exactly the wrong message so the problem may even get worse, and even more unsuspecting people get screwed.
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I did register the domain americanairlinessucksadick.com, but I let it expire rather than taking any action...
You're complaining to the wrong company (Score:1)
Write a bug report to Microsoft since it's their program that doesn't work when you turn on the AVS.
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It is done... (Score:2)
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Step1 NAME THEM (Score:5, Insightful)
All of these people protecting these bad companies in these posts are insane.
Freaking Name the company you are having problems with. What the hell is wrong with people protecting companies that screw them?
Re:Step1 NAME THEM (Score:5, Insightful)
It's fear.
They are worried the company will come down hard on them in some way.
Land of the free indeed...
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OP is in Europe, but don't let that stop you.
Full disclosure, I don't disagree with the gist of your comment, just the accuracy of your targeting.
By being reasonable (Score:5, Interesting)
I start by being reasonable. That includes giving them enough time and opportunities to understand the problem, and then work on a fix. I also don't expect commercial products to be compatible with beta releases. How in the world can they even provide support for something that is under development?
Here's how I handled a service problem with a VPN (Score:3)
You have to ask? (Score:2)
Step 2: Find a better vendor.
Step 3: No more headaches. Duh.
Small Claims Court (Score:1)
It is a known issue with AV software (Score:4, Informative)
This is a known issue and is being worked on by the actual Avast! support : https://forum.avast.com/index.... [avast.com]
I don't know how the OP submitted the ticket, but it went to a "retention specialist" who probably thought he was trying to use it on Ubuntu (at least that's what I understand from the first email reply). And it is not just Avast!, see for example similar problems with Kaspersky: https://github.com/Microsoft/B... [github.com] and more: https://github.com/Microsoft/B... [github.com]
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How to deal with unreasonable customers? (Score:1)
As far as handling the refund I generally tend to rule in favor of the customer if I feel it's a reason
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name them (Score:1)
How do you deal withunreasonable companies? (Score:1)
Depends in your funds (Score:2)
First of all collect the complete story. Then make it public. Name the company. And depending on your country get legal advice. In many cases US EULAs are not valid in the EU to their full extend, as we have other regulations and a lot of fraud protection. In case the support was the usual thing a customer expects, they would have to deliver that. As you are a little vague on the issue and company it is hard to give you definitive advice.
I just realized the REALLY interesting question. (Score:1)
So far a lot of software has been able to claim somewhat confidentially "Compatible with windows 3.11 / 95 / 2000 / XP / 7" and so on.
But now Microsoft is adding new and completely unexpected new subsystems to their OS, without making that in any way "obvious" to the customer (and other software vendors) that there is a big change in the OS that might (and most definitely will) break existing software.
This basically means that most (if not all) third party Window software will become more of a "might or mig
two words: public shaming (Score:2)
If I knew, I wouldn't have had to cut my card. (Score:2)
Can I have a rifle? (Score:1)
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3) not a single virus infection in over 20 years
ohh and if you want extra protection. Just set your firewall to block any outgoing unless you white list it.
The greatest trick the malware ever pulled was to make you believe it never existed.
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Avira != Avast