Ask Slashdot: How Can I Prove My ISP Slows Certain Traffic? 203
Long-time Slashdot reader GerryGilmore is "a basically pretty knowledgeable Linux guy totally comfortable with the command line." But unfortunately, he lives in north Georgia, "where we have a monopoly ISP provider...whose service overall could charitably be described as iffy."
Sometimes, I have noticed that certain services like Netflix and/or HBONow will be ridiculously slow, but -- when I run an internet speed test from my Linux laptop -- the basic throughput is what it's supposed to be for my DSL service. That is, about 3Mbps due to my distance from the nearest CO. Other basic web browsing seems to be fine... I don't know enough about network tracing to be able to identify where/why such severe slowdowns in certain circumstances are occurring.
Slashdot reader darkharlequin has also noticed a speed decrease on Comcast "that magickally resolves when I run internet speed tests." But if the original submitter's ultimate goal is delivering evidence to his local legislators so they can pressure on his ISP -- what evidence is there? Leave your best answers in the comments. How can he prove his ISP is slowing certain traffic?
Slashdot reader darkharlequin has also noticed a speed decrease on Comcast "that magickally resolves when I run internet speed tests." But if the original submitter's ultimate goal is delivering evidence to his local legislators so they can pressure on his ISP -- what evidence is there? Leave your best answers in the comments. How can he prove his ISP is slowing certain traffic?
probably not slowing it specificly (Score:5, Interesting)
Alternatively: (Score:5, Informative)
Find a free vpn service, like vpngate, and run your connection over to a site (other than netflix, due to geoblocking) that normally runs slow for you. If your speed sees an increase, then yes they are throttling traffic to certain websites. If your speed is the same or less then no your connection to the outside world is just shitty. That is the #1 benefit to vpns for the consumer imho. Unless it is a specific service they are degrading they can't tell who your vpn connects to, and either they throttle all vpns, which commercial users would frown upon, or they throttle none of them beyond regular bandwidth limits and you can find out if that is where the problem lies.
Re: Alternatively: (Score:5, Informative)
Not necessarily. The internet is comprised of a bunch of networks. If you are getting slow service to Netflix, it may be that you are traversing a saturated peer (maybe your ISP's peer, maybe their upstream provider's peer).
When you use a VPN, you are routing to a different site, which might have no saturated peers in the chain. Then from that site, you have a decent link to a Netflix node.
You are routing around using the VPN.
Also, 3mbps isn't great for streaming. When you say it's slow to Netflix but fast for sites, consider the volume of traffic. Netflix needs 5mbps for HD content, so you probably do t have a slow connection to one site, just in general.
Re: Alternatively: (Score:5, Interesting)
If your ISP has a constantly saturated peer that is in effect throttling. We have seen ISP's use BGP traffic engineering to try and push all netflix traffic through a specific peer and then let it saturate the links as a bargaining tool. This should not be allowed. Realy any link that's saturated anywhere inside an ISP or with peers and transit providers should not be allowed in the long term.
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Yup.
The proper tool to try to figure out where packets are being dropped or delayed is called "paratrace"
You kind of need to know what you are doing to use it properly... you have to find the connection that is being slowed and jump on it.
Also, and this goes for traceroute, too, if a single transit node has high loss or delay, but the nodes beyond it do not, then that node should not be blamed... returning packets due to TTL exhaustion may be CPU-bound or control-plane-policed on a transit node, which is no
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When you use a VPN, you are routing to a different site, which might have no saturated peers in the chain.
If your VPN can take a faster route than your Netflix, your ISP could choose, if they wanted to, to route your Netflix that way too. By choosing not to, they are in effect throttling your internet.
Re: Alternatively: (Score:2)
No. BGP doesn't work that way. It is not a load balancing routing engine. It picks the shortest path first, and sends traffic that way. Also, different paths that he may be traversing might be significantly less congested but much smaller. Sending the traffic that way could overwhelm the other peer.
3Mbps is required for Netflix (Score:2)
He says he get a standard 3 Mpbs from his ISP. This is about the speed required for a non-buffering stream from Netflix. So any small dip in speed or the use of a second application at the same time as Netflix would result in buffering. Doesn't mean the ISP is not throttling but it could just be that the standard speed is not up to the job.
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I have 200Mbps down and 40Mbps up, and in spite of that at times Netflix gets a hiccup now and then. Not often mind you but it can still happen, usually around 5PM to 7PM If it's going to happen.
About the only things a person can do on their end to improve things is getting your own modem and router, a good quality home network will make sure your getting as much bandwidth as you can out of the wall. (I have a 320Mbps Motorola cable modem and a Linksys EA7500 not the best stuff but it's leaps and bounds bet
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That's a big issue with the National Slowband Network in Oz. The resellers aren't buying enough capacity from NBN Co - so everyone experiences "buffering" from 5 - 10pm (or thereabouts).
I'm not going to sign an NBN contract that doesn't guarantee a minimum speed of at least 25MBit/s down - wish me luck.
There's a 5G network being rolled out on the Gold Coast to support the imminent Commonwealth Games - let's see what happens afterwards, shall we? After people have been been able to watch sports in 4K (and lo
Re:Alternatively: (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not "buffering" or a "slowdown", it's advertised as "evening speeds".
As if it's a perfectly natural thing to experience congestion during the evening.
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Solution is:
Rent the CD with the movie you want to see from Netflix.
Use the program 123 Copy DVD Platinum to rip it to your disk.
Watch the movie from your disk. No buffering.
Simple.
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Er... DVD, not CD... oops...
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But still... eeewww, DVD.
I'd hate to be your enemy.
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DVD is of a lot higher quality than a lot of my attempts to stream HD content from Netflix. And I don't even live in AU.
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And 123 has an extra-cost option to rip blue-rays, too, if you really want HD.
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How many countries have DVD rental from Netflix? I'm in Canada and don't seem to have the option to rent DVD's, though perhaps I just missed it.
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Yeah, sending thru mail back and forth to Canada may not be an option, don't know.
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That's not true for all ISPs.
Avoid anyone selling "unlimited internet", that'll never work with the CVC costs and the leaches it attracts.
I'm on a $69 for 1TB a month on a 100Mbps plan and always get over 80Mbps.
Shop around and ignore the big guys, they're all shit.
Go to whirlpool and checkout Telecube and then thank me later.
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When I first got services from them, I talked to the manager of network operations, asked them how they could afford dedicated bandwidth. He s
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Your ISP will be purchasing bandwidth from an upstream provider, who will be doing the "provisioned rate', while it seems that your ISP purchases non over-subscribed bandwidth, they're just pushing the problem (limitations) further upstream.
It's still going to be there, just shared amongst and even larger pool of "customers".
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Not everyone lives in a small highly populated country with actual choices for an ISP.
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That's nothing to do with civilized. It's about population density and the country not being on its own continent.
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Sweden approx 450,000 km2, population approx 10m.
Australia approx 7,700,000 km2, population approx 24m.
Can you see why it may cost more to provide an infrastructure for Australians?
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Most of the population of Oz is in an area that is much smaller.
Same applies for any country.
Your argument is weak
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Netflix has one:
https://ispspeedindex.netflix.... [netflix.com]
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I think you have that right. I try to download files from GB prior to 1800 PDT as after that time the rate drops like a rock. What takes 5 minutes at 1600 takes 30-60 minutes at 2000. These are not netflix files but it would seem that in the evening netflixs flood the system.
BS (Score:5, Insightful)
Comcast deliberately and specifically used to slow down Netflix traffic. Prior to Netflix paying them for peering.
I had Comcast's 25mbps speed package, but couldn't stream Super or 3D content. Bandwith was too slow. Dropped my service down to 3mbps. Netflix and Comcast signed peering agreement. Suddenly, the very next day my 3mbps connection was fast enough to stream 3D content from Netflix.
Ya....don't give me the congestion BS. The telcos very knowingly throttle certain content.
You can't really (Score:4, Informative)
Traffic slowed by your ISP, and traffic slowed further down the chain - for instance by poor peering - are indistinguishable. With some help from hops further along like Netflix (or within the ISP) you may be able to pinpoint the exact problem. However, given that so many providers are capable of routing Netflix at acceptable speeds it also doesn't matter, it's obviously your ISP's responsibility.
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not easy, i know
you can... (Score:4, Informative)
its not that hard
but you have to have at least two connections to compare the traffic
a study that was funded by a USA national science award does exactly this :
simply download a app and run it
http://bit.ly/2IAdbmD [bit.ly]
you can thank me on twitter if you like http://twitter.com/johnjonesname [twitter.com]
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I don't have a Twitter machine so I am thanking you here instead :)
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No QoS 4 U (Score:1)
Until the government ensures a quality service on ISPs to make them similar to land-line phones (common-carrier), it doesn't really matter if you complain about small things you find. I have had VOIP blocked by the ISP due to their competing service, and have had speed issues that looked better with the speed test, but it really can't get resolved until the government cares about the Internet as critical infrastructure which can easily damage the economy.
Paper insulated (Score:2)
Streaming services will often consider a users connection and change their streaming service to what they think will offer the best experience.
Long term support any innovative new community broadband network and see how the different networks do networking?
Freedom of choice.
Support a better new network.
fast.com (Score:5, Informative)
https://fast.com
This site uses the same servers as the Netflix streaming service so it should be a clear indicator. You should note though that 3Mbps isnâ(TM)t very fast when it comes to playing streaming video. An HD stream from Netflix can easily hit 7 or 8 Mbps.
Re:fast.com (Score:5, Informative)
It's disappointing that this is currently scored 0. This is the right answer for this scenario.
With strong Net Neutrality laws, there are limits to how sophisticated ISP throttling can be and still pretend to be legitimate. With that essentially eliminated now, the only meaningful test is to use actual traffic. Netflix has preempted this need for their own services by creating fast.com [fast.com] to look identical, going to Netflix servers over the same ports and protocols as normal Netflix traffic. It will be subject to the same throttling, and thus allows you to measure the speed you get when working with Netflix.
I'd love to see other services hosting similar tools, but for now Netflix is the only major company I know of offering their own user-accessible performance test.
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Both are gamed by the ISP and have the same result. It doesn't really empower me one way or the other to know the difference
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Both are the ISP slowing traffic. Intentional sabotage of peering link capacity is no different effectively than throttling.
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Indeed. My ISP is pretty good (I'm the one throttling Netflix traffic here at my house... wife and 3 kids eat up a lot of bandwidth and I need some reserved for me to do homework) so it hasn't been a concern for me but I've wondered why there haven't been content provider supplied speed tests. Of course, I didn't know about fast.com either...
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It's disappointing that this is currently scored 0.
It's disappointing that you think 16 minutes (including the time it took for you to type your post) is too long for an anonymous post to get modded up. I'm rather glad that AC posts don't just start at Score:2 for no good reason. The post in question is proof that the moderation system is working correctly and effectively, even if not instantly.
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Eh... groupthink and vitriolic anti-corporate shitposts get bumped up in far less than 16 minutes, but I digress.
When a good comment that perfectly responds to the topic at hand (and with good information) sits at 0 because it happened to come from someone unregistered, what's really disappointing to me is that there is no good solution. Heuristics to guess an expected score can be gamed. Tracking users without accounts is a privacy minefield. Assuming an initial score and letting the mods do their thing le
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Well, that can be gamed by shady customers setting up a ping script to that IP that fires every 20 minutes or so.
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It would fit the same profile and no - SNI requires the traffic to be decrypted. If you're able to distinguish that, then the encryption is utterly broken.
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It would fit the same profile and no - SNI requires the traffic to be decrypted. If you're able to distinguish that, then the encryption is utterly broken.
SNI is transmitted in the clear for the simple reason servers absolutely need to know a hostname in order to determine what certificates it needs to load to
communicate with the client. Certificates often managed and owned by completely separate customers of the hosting provider.
There have been proposals to obscure SNI behind some kind of anonymous DH scheme yet even in TLS 1.3 as it is this is still done in the clear. Currently SNI on all production systems is performed in the clear.
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Oh, right. However, the UI is the only thing that needs to come from fast.com. Everything else can come from netflix-753.vo.llnwd.net or whatever they want. And Netflix can make all its clients load the fast.com page before streaming and pretend to be a speed test if it wants. Though it would be easier to implement a delayed throttle that lets the first few minutes in at full speed. On the other hand, video is requested in chunks and sometimes behind carrier-grade NAT or home LAN. It would be difficul
Re:fast.com (Score:5, Informative)
I was going to post fast.com if no-one else had.
There's also a list of other tests on https://www.eff.org/testyouris... [eff.org]
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All the major streaming services offer their own speedtest. There's an Apple App (yes, it was approved. It was only delayed while apple confirmed it wasn't snakeoil) that will check all the video services speedtest sites. I don't know if it's open source, but there was a slashdot article on it a while ago. Or you can build your own script.
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you mean you'd specifically throttle fast.com, right? Otherwise you're just making it really blatant that you're treating netflix traffic differently...
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No, I'd let those speedtests run at full speed.
The implication is that fast.com is owned by Netflix, and if that operates at full speed, Netflix obviously operates at full speed. If fast.com results are consistently lower than others, THAT would imply that Netflix traffic is being treated differently. And this way I, as an asshole ISP, could say "Fast.com is run by Netflix, if it's showing you good speed, and videos aren't playing well, then it must be an issue with Netflix's servers"
Five easy steps (Score:1)
1. Get job working for ISP
2. Slow certain traffic
3. Film yourself
4. Post video to youtube
Profit
Prioritizing speed test servers a NN violation (Score:1)
Many ISPs large and small explicitly add rules prioritizing speed test servers over normal traffic. To this day it baffles me why ISPs are getting away not only with blatant violation of NN by prioritizing specific destinations over others but with what is essentially intentionally misleading their customers with bogus results as a consequence of prioritizing speed tests. The trick to obtain meaningful results is in finding much less known speed test servers or just downloading large files from a sampling
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Far be it from me to defend a carrier or telco, but you're not being realistic.
ISPs have routes to other peers. Inside their own realm, they may or may not have links or even hosted content distribution networks to ease the traffic on their core routers. Netflix, along with Akamai and plentiful others allow peering agreements to boost the QoS of their delivery to end nodes.
This in turn, is a bit different than how LTE carriers deliver their own feeds. Some people NEVER watch a movie on their phone, and othe
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Not necessarily your ISP at fault (Score:2)
Streaming is a complex game and it can get disrupted in many ways. Packet loss, jitter, reordering, buffer-bloat, brief interruptions on traffic spikes, etc. all things that are no so bad with TCP can really, really mess up streaming. My guess would be that the streaming services all use a very similar set of parameters for their protocols that in general work reasonably, but with your connection does not work well at all. The solution to that would ordinarily be to just download the files and then play loc
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My guess is that most streaming is using TCP
If most streaming used TCP, there would be all kinds of buffering and slowdowns. I think you're wrong.
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If most streaming used TCP, there would be all kinds of buffering and slowdowns. I think you're wrong.
ALL of them use TCP.
Confusion likely stems from mistaking realtime bidirectional communications such as voice and video calling which are inherently delay intolerant with bulk transfer of static content. Two completely different technologies with very little in common.
The way you keep from buffering and slowing down is by creating a large enough stream buffer to hedge against presence of any future transient conditions.
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Streaming over TCP requires abundant spare bandwidth to work. A good rule of thumb is reliably (including peaks) less than 50% utilization in both directions for it to work fine. This situation is rarely given, so basically no streaming uses plain TCP. It may use some other protocol masking as TCP to get through firewalls and other things, but that is it.
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All of the most common streaming protocols (HLS, HDS) use TCP connections. In fact, they mostly use HTTP over TCP/IP connections.
It seems like you're confusing higher level "protocols" with lower level protocols, of which you can pretty much use TCP or UDP on the Internet. Streaming connections virtually all use TCP, not UDP.
So yeah, you'd run HLS as a specialized application for streaming version of HTTP, but you'd do it with normal TCP connections and all that entails as the underlying session/transport
Use the Netflix app speed test... (Score:4, Informative)
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Remote in? (Score:2)
I'm not an expert on these things, but maybe do it from the outside? Set up an internet facing server on your network and then push and pull data using a known honest provider.
Honorifics on Slashdot (Score:3)
Has darkharlequin done something to displease the editors?
Matt's TraceRoute (Score:5, Informative)
Speed testing Comcast (Score:5, Interesting)
If it's a popular or well publicized test site, comcast gives back great numbers.
On the other hand, if you use any of the various ways to obfuscate the address, or just use one comcast doesn't have on it's script yet, then you'll see MUCH lower speeds.
Yes, there are ways to verify that the obfuscation isn't causing the slowdown.
Short version, comcast slows you down unless they know they're being tested, then they give you a higher bandwidth. I've tested them for close to 10 years now, and it's always the same.
Yup... (Score:2)
Greedy bastitches.
ask your question in a place (Score:2)
Compare it to a VPN (Score:2)
This will sound odd, but try a VPN over the same connection.
I found my ISP was slowing down all traffic, apart from to speedtest.net and other speed testing sites.
However, they were not slowing down VPN traffic.
After running all my traffic for a month over a VPN, my speeds were 10x faster and not slowing down at peak times.
Then I received a call from my ISP kindly asking me to leave. I'm now with a decent ISP.
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It was Eclipse Internet [wikipedia.org]. They don't really seem to exist any more and are part of KCOM.
Before that, I had a similar problem with O2 Broadband, and they went the same way.
Try comparing regular vs VPN but... (Score:2)
Use Netflix's speed measuring tool (Score:2)
It tests using Netflix so you can compare to other speed testers.
https://fast.com/ [fast.com]
Wehe (Score:2)
Check to see if they are using a proxy cache (Score:2)
Wehe (Score:2)
You are welcome [meddle.mobi].
SFTP to Godaddy from Rogers blocked (Score:2)
Has anyone else experienced this and been able to resolve it?
netflix slow (Score:2)
Last night netflix movies would simply get to 20% (of the way to starting the movie) and stop, meaning the movie never actually started. In every case it got to 15% or up to 23% and...no further. I tried several times on each of several movies.
Switched to amazon prime and no delay, fast response, worked fine right away.
I was asking myself how I could check on comcast (the only ISP available here).
It's a TV, so no obvious way to run a speed test on it.
Method (Score:2)
1. Use pchar to establish the bandwidth and packet loss ICMP sees between endpoints.
2. Craft packets that contain magic numbers or magic strings, I'm pretty sure that's hping, and see if there are behaviours that only occur with given sequences regardless of endpoints.
3. Traverse the same segment of net using an encrypted tunnel, as encryption is slow. If this causes a massive acceleration, then it cannot be explained by a change in path, only by a change in visibility.
4. Use a proxy that is on the other si
OONI Probe (Score:2)
https://ooni.torproject.org/ [torproject.org]
HTH
Typical peering problem (Score:2)
Your ISP probably doesn't slow down anything. It's just that they didn't partner with the content delivery networks of some popular services. There are often disagreements on who is going to pay... As a result, all Netflix or whatever traffic goes through small pipes that are not designed to handle such heavy loads.
If you notice that speeds vary during the day, with prime time being the slowest, than that's must be what happens. The mitigation is to force the data to take a different path, one that is not s
As the original OP... (Score:3)
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did you use any of the methods and what was the result ?
Unsolicited Advice (Score:2)
Comcast has more lobbyists and lawyers than you. You'll never win. Ever.
Unless you just want to prove the point for argument's sake.
Then I bid you godspeed, sir.
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Video is very susceptible to jitter
No it isn't.
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Depends entirely on what is used for flow-control and how much buffering is done. Jitter can have minimal effect on that or it can shoot things to hell.
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Depends entirely on what is used for flow-control and how much buffering is done. Jitter can have minimal effect on that or it can shoot things to hell.
No it doesn't. The streaming services use TCP. Jitter and even packet loss are often concealed by the receive window depending on where event occurs. It's a statistical game where to win you need only a buffer big enough to account for transient conditions and of course channel capacity larger than consumption rate.
Massive jitter or packet loss at tail can indeed stall a stream and even result in visually affecting output yet TCP protocol is reasonably well designed and capable of efficient bulk transmis
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Neither of these statements is particularly precise, but the first is general enough that your response starting with "no" is less correct. TCP is very sensitive to loss. These are my favorite links on this subject:
Jitter is not the same thing as packet loss (PL). My response is about Jitter not packet loss.
When I said "Jitter and even packet loss are often concealed by the receive window depending on where event occurs" this means TCP has machinery capable of dealing with out of order receipt and sequence gaps in most cases without stalling the stream for round trip or worse RTO. Mentioning PL was intended only to highlight this capability.
It sure as heck does not mean TCP congestion algorithms should ignore conges
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Your math is wrong. All you have to do to prove it is to run Wireshark or a switch with a promiscuous port and log how much data has passed through your connection. Or download the same title for offline viewing in full HD quality. Those bandwidth numbers match up with a number of HD torrents of high quality and carefully tuned encoding.
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Comcast deliberately and specifically used to slow down Netflix traffic. Prior to Netflix paying them for peering.
I had Comcast's 25mbps speed package, but couldn't stream Super or 3D content. Bandwith was too slow. Dropped my service down to 3mbps. Netflix and Comcast signed peering agreement. Suddenly, the very next day my 3mbps connection was fast enough to stream 3D content from Netflix.
The telcos very knowingly throttle certain content.
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The company lies about its internet speeds but all of my customers know that and still subscribe to them.
The company lies about its internet speeds but all of my customers know that and unfortunately have no choice but to subscribe anyway.
FTFY
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If Ayn Rand had had to deal with Comcast, she probably would have embraced Marxism.
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