Ask Slashdot: Which Motherboard Manufacturer Provides the Best Support? 154
New submitter Hrrrg writes: A number of years ago, I built a computer with an Asus LGA 1150 Z87-Pro motherboard. Since the discovery of the Spectre and Meltdown CPU flaws, I was hoping for a BIOS update to address them. However, it seems that there will be no BIOS update forthcoming for this 5 year old motherboard. I would prefer not to repeat my mistake with future builds. Can you recommend another manufacturer that is doing better?
SuperMicro (Score:5, Funny)
Their support is so great, it's almost like they're watching what you're doing.
Bad time to say it, but they do support, update (Score:5, Informative)
My thoughts exactly. Supermicro boards are normally used in servers, so their customers have certain expectations. Here is one list of Spectre patches for a bunch of Supermicro motherboards:
https://www.supermicro.com/sup... [supermicro.com]
If anyone missed the news, just recently it was discovered that the Chinese manufacturer added a very suspicious chip to a small number of Supermicro boards. That's obviously very bad news.
Re: Bad time to say it, but they do support, updat (Score:2)
Thanks for pointing that out (Score:2)
At the time I wrote that, I hadn't seen anyone question whether it happened. Thanks for mentioning that.
Re: Thanks for pointing that out (Score:2)
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and I actually liked quite a few of their boards.
Re: (Score:1)
Do you think that after I offer stats and reasoning, that your hollow insults prove that you occupy some kind of high ground? No.
You have not offered any stats or reasoning. As far as I can see, you presented a couple of numbers with no sources for those numbers and no definitions of what they mean.
In case anyone who happens to read this is actually interested in how such analysis can be done, I offer this. First, I find it helpful to make a list of knowns and unknowns: (1) Some number of deaths occur. (2) Of the deaths that occur, some will be detected within some period of time, while others will not be detected. (3) Of the death
Re: (Score:1)
When their black children don't have black fathers nearly 90% of the time, tell them it's because of something white men do to them.
Actually, that is one factor. See this [counterpunch.org], for example.
Another factor is the differential incarceration rates for black men. For more background on that issue, see The New Jim Crow [newjimcrow.com] , by Michelle Alexander.
On the other hand, I'm not at all sure what "black children don't have black fathers" is supposed to mean. I can think of at least three definitions. None of them hits 90%.
Re: SuperMicro (Score:1)
You've been trolled by a crapflooder. /. really is going to shit.
Spectre and Meltdown (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:1)
The BIOS update permanently updates the CPU microcode, which is preferable to the soft patches coming through Windows Update.
Re:Spectre and Meltdown (Score:4, Informative)
Not permanently. The BIOS update just includes a microcode update that the BIOS reloads every power-on/restart. Just like an operating system might do it, but earlier.
Re:Spectre and Meltdown (Score:5, Informative)
There are no good fixes for Intel Meltdown, microcode or otherwise. Intel's patches just plain kill performance, putting single thread i7 performance well behind Ryzen. So much for the last remaining thing Intel had to crow about. It's a Ryzen world today, I heard it's already north of 30% of new desktop parts and still climbing. If TSMC 7nm plays out without production glitches, Ryzen will take the lead on desktop this spring and keep it for the foreseeable future. AMD is not ramping up their laptop effort, with a highly credible low power GPU heavy lineup. And Epyc is reportedly already up to 5% of server shipments, with 64 core (128 threads!) chips now rumored to be in the pipeline.
Well, drifted off a bit there. The point is, just don't waste your money on Intel desktop or server parts, Meltdown is a complete disaster.
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If TSMC 7nm plays out without production glitches
Now that's funny right there. But I agree, if I were building a new machine right now it would be AMD.
Re: (Score:3)
The jury is very definitely still out on whether TSMC actually has achieved high volume defect rates at 7nm. But maybe only another three weeks or so. If you hear a lot of complaints about backordered iPhones later this month, it most probably means that TSMC also has issues. The truth really hasn't leaked to any great extent.
Meanwhile, I'm optimistically planning a 7nm Threadripper build for approximately 8 months from now. Until then, even the 1000 series Ryzens provide me with more than satisfactory work
Re:Spectre and Meltdown (Score:4, Funny)
Re: Spectre and Meltdown (Score:2)
Drink Pepsi, not Coke!
No! Drink RC Cola. Be a rebel!
Re: (Score:3)
Drink water, that is what your body really wants, everything else is a waste of money and a good way to f*ck your body
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Drink beer!
1/9 supreme court judges thinks that beer is great.
Re: Spectre and Meltdown (Score:2)
Heck, I even remember the previous President having a 'Beer Summit ' once.
Re: (Score:3)
Meltdown is far more serious than Spectre. To fix it, get a Ryzen, that's all there is to that. Spectre has a bunch of fixes merged to mainline Linux now. So if you're worried about Spectre, your best remedy is switch to Linux. Linux + Ryzen: the current sweet spot for performance, security and value.
MSI (Score:1)
Re: (Score:3)
Latest BIOS update? 2014-07-22. Want to take another try at being responsive?
Re:MSI (Score:4, Informative)
Z170 / Skylake 6xxx is the oldest that will get the Meltdown updated BIOS. This is Intel making that call. Z97 and older are SOL.
Re: (Score:2)
Z170 / Skylake 6xxx is the oldest that will get the Meltdown updated BIOS. This is Intel making that call. Xoo Z97 and older are SOL.
Re: (Score:2)
*X99 / Z97 and older are SOL
Mitigations will be in the OSes (Score:5, Informative)
Meltdown and Spectre mitigations will be in the OSes you run. The only thing a BIOS update will get you is updated microcode, but updated microcode is available at the OS level for all major OSes (e.g. Linux, Windows, macOS).
Re: (Score:3)
Meltdown and Spectre mitigations will be in the OSes you run.
Not true for Meltdown, the only OS level mitigations are rip your face off slow. You fix Meltdown by buying AMD. intel doesn't even have a Meltdown fix for Cannon Lake, even if they were able to manufacture them reliably. Intel doesn't have a whole lot to say about this. If they do decide to come clean I suppose it will be roughly along the lines of, reengineering the Cannon Lake cache logic, redoing all the masks, and redoing all the testing would delay another six months than it already is, not going to h
Re: For your concern, it is irrelevant (Score:1)
Stop bundling spectre and meltdown together. Specter can be and has been mitigated at software or firmware/microcode level. On the other hand, Meltdown affected all Intel and a few Qualcomm chips and cannot be mitigated, for the current lineup of CPUs.
Asus, Gigabyte or MSI (Score:5, Insightful)
There's nothing wrong with ASRock but they're not known for durability. I will say I seldom see them on the second hand market which implies that's for a reason.
There's probably some server board makers out there if you want to spend $600 and you'll get your bios upgrades, but you could buy 2 or 3 good boards for that price. Plus the chips they take usually cost 2-3x times as much too.
Basically, it's consumer grade hardware. The best you can hope for is that it doesn't break in 5 years. Everything after that is gravy.
Re: (Score:2)
Still running a $60 Abit AMD board with the original Phenom. The sound circuits said their goodbyes after 8 years and the memory training has become very slow with all sockets full, but the latest Window 10 still works with the storage controller in IDE mode.
I am in almost the same position but the only thing which has failed on my system are two power supplies and one video card. I am still running an almost 10 year old ASUS M3A78-T (2008) with a Phenom II 940 (2009) and I have no complaints. I am in the process of building a Ryzen system to replace it.
My previous Asus P4C800-E Deluxe with Intel Pentium4 2.4C still works fine also and I am in the process of refurbishing it for use as a file server. My even older Abit BX6 Revision 2 which currently has a 1.2
Re: Asus, Gigabyte or MSI (Score:1)
This. And agree best bet otherwise is server hardware. Can't guarantee anything, but businesses use hardware for years and partially pay to get that support.
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There's nothing wrong with ASRock but they're not known for durability.
I can second this. I got an ASRock Z97E-ITX/AC in March 2015. Failed in late 2016; my only ever motherboard failure. Replaced with a Gigabyte board which is still going strong.
Re: (Score:3)
Not a useful anecdote to dissuade people away from one of the companies that did in fact update many 5+ years old motherboards with firmware updates for Spectre and Meltdown.
Rest assured, every motherboard maker out there has a certain percentage of products returned as faulty every year. Yours was one of them.
Re: (Score:2)
No I cannot support a recommendation for Gigabyte given the question being asked. To be clear I have a complete Gigabyte setup. I have had Gigabyte motherboards for the best part of 20 years. They are very reliable and well built having never had a failure regardless of how much I've pushed the boundaries overclocking.
However... Their software and BIOS can only be described as a complete crock of shit. They should outsource their software to the lowest bidder in India, it can only improve the current state
Re: (Score:3)
You jumped the gun a little there in regards to ASRock.
Reasons for not seeing them on the second hand market:
- people are keeping them because they are going strong
- they don't have high resale value so they are binning them instead of selling them
- they are failing prematurely
- or most likely of all, your sample of the second hand motherboard market is incredibly small
What? (Score:1)
How did this dumb ass question get posted on / . ?
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Are you kidding me?! (Score:3)
The chips Intel are putting out still have the same deep flaws as before, slower and are more expensive than AMD chips. Why in hell are you still wanting to use an Intel chip?!
Re: Are you kidding me?! (Score:1)
But the flaws don't.
Stop shilling for Intel.
Re: (Score:2)
Almost all modern CPU are vulnerable to spectre, including PowerPC and faster ARM CPUs
Re: Are you kidding me?! (Score:2)
Most AMD partisans consider it one of their hobbies. A fandom. I am not an 'Intel zealot' but am fairly certain I will be called that by some of the hobbyists.
Re: (Score:2)
slower and are more expensive than AMD chips
Because for the people who've assessed the risk and determined Meltdown to be irrelevant to them (should be pretty much 100% of consumers) and those people who require single threaded performance, Intel is still very much the performance king.
Re: (Score:2)
Nope AMD has spectre vulnerabilities as well. It may have only 2 of the 3 discovered but it also uses branch prediction. Intel is faster too in gaming as AMD can't keep up if you read any benchmarks?
The best solution is to wait until 2019 or 2020 until CPU fixes come in.
Something with Supermicro (Score:2)
The answer to your question is... (Score:2)
They have the best support. You are unlikely to get better from someone else.
Re: (Score:2)
Something something something wall of text (Score:2, Informative)
Having recently used Asus, ASRock, MSI and Gigabyte products for some builds for friends, I would say Asus. ASRock had some questionable at best soldering on the boards (x299) I've seen and their BIOS translations and documentation were sketchy. MSI had a bunch of good things but other things that weren't well designed. I also came across information that was flat out wrong in the manual for the Z2370 board I was working on. Asus seemed to have good documentation and translations in bIOS and a quality built
Re: (Score:2)
Asus > Tyan > Gigabyte > MSI > ASRock
MSI stood behind their product (Score:3)
MSI did the right thing with their AB350-gaming motherboard, an early, budget Ryzen board. They kept the firmware completely current even though that board was quickly superseded by AB350-gaming 3. At first I really had my doubts whether MSI would stand behind that early board, and maybe I just wasted my $100, but they surprised me favorably. Not only does the board seem to have no serious flaws that they couldn't patch up with a firmware update, it's been a really good performer. More than 150 days uptime at one point, only ended by a power outage when not plugged into UPS. Oh well, it was time to update the kernel anyway.
MSI's prompt firmware updates were particularly important to fix the lockup issue Ryzen chipsets initially had with some power supplies under Linux. MSI released new firmware within days of AMD distributing the fix.
The whole point of that build was to have a workstation class box at budget price. I would definitely go MSI for the next build, but that isn't going to be budget, far from it. It will be a high end Threadripper build. I'm addicted now, you see. Vendors stood behind their products so I will stand behind them.
Re: (Score:2)
They kept the firmware completely current
EVERY B350 / X370 has current firmware.
All manufacturers were forced to issue a BIOS update a few months ago with the release of Ryzen 2 which is incompatible with the existing BIOSes on boards with those chipsets. So incompatible that if you go out and buy a B350 and a Ryzen 2 there's a chance you may think it's Dead On Arrival.
AMD even offer a "kit" for you to fix this. If you take a photo of your 2ng Gen Ryzen, your motherboard including serial numbers for both and a receipt, AMD will mail you an loaner
Break out the lab equipment (Score:5, Funny)
... 5 year old motherboard ...
Good luck. In the land of consumer electronics, things that old need to be carbon dated.
Re: (Score:2)
My Dell Optiplex 790 at work just got another BIOS update in August. That's the second one this year, after one last year for the Intel ME issue. The machine is now nearly seven years old, though has been pimped with 32GB of RAM and an SSD. In fact today I changed the graphics card for something that supports a Dual DVI link so I can hook up a 30" monitor that I got for free of a friend (he has gone 5k and was giving it away). Nothing fancy just a cheap fanless GeForce 710 off eBay, which just worked when I
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
My 2014 era Haswel i7 4770K runs VM's and games competitively to newer CPUs with only a 10% to 15% loss in performance. This is 2018 not 1998.
THe only thing a newer system will do is provide more cores which may be nice for a few Vms and NVME drives with theoretical performance as I/O in benchmarks are not the same in the real world, oh and I can charge my phone with a type-C connector.
Change for the sake of change is expensive and many of us prefer Windows 7. My system runs 10 but after the latest update f
Re: (Score:2)
Change for the sake of change is expensive and many of us prefer Windows 7. My system runs 10 but after the latest update fiasco I don't blame users to keep 7 and older hardware if they don't need to upgrade. It just works and works well.
All my systems are used or hand-me-downs from friends, though I typically upgrade them when I get them - usually by maxing out the RAM. I currently have the following hand-me-downs: a Dell XPS 420 w/8GB RAM running Windows 7, Dell Inspiron 530 w/8GB RAM running Windows 10, a Lenovo H420 w/16 GB RAM (vendor says max is 8GB) running Ubuntu 16.04 desktop; and a used Dell T110 w/32GB RAM running Ubuntu 16.04 server (at the moment).
Vendors vs. users (Score:2)
These days, computers are plenty fast for most tasks. {...} For most tasks by most users, five years is fine.
Sadly, the hardware vendors don't seem to agree with you.
It seems that if it's older than a couple of months, you're basically on your own.
(Except maybe for the "business" line of some manufacturer like Dell or Lenovo. But definitely the case for separate motherboard manufacturer as in TFS).
Heck, I'm running a laptop that was manufactured August 2012; 6 years ago. It performs just fine. (Disclaimer: I'm running Linux.)
That last part might be the reason why you and I can pull such a stunt, including the latest kernel. The same hardware will probably refuse to run anything more recent than Windows Vista.
(And let me guess, also using No
Re: (Score:3)
Wait what? You literally cannot sign away your legal warranty rights under the legislation that is compatible with the relevant EU directive, and Sweden must harmonise national law with this EU directive.
They are however well within their rights to demand you pay them for the check-up if they find that you're at fault (i.e. you dropped the damn thing into a pool and decided to pretend this is a warranty repair).
problems not with ASUS (Score:2)
ASUS is a great motherboard manufacture, and has been for a long time. Even when I use other motherboards ASUS is still one of the top tier in my book. Finding a better one....
Your motherboard is using the z87 chipset
Not just ASUS, Gigabyte and MSI (other good motherboard makers) also don't have released microcode
https://www.asus.com/News/V5ur... [asus.com]
https://www.gigabyte.com/Micro... [gigabyte.com]
https://www.msi.com/news/detai... [msi.com]
You'll have to rely on the OS patches.
5 years? (Score:2)
Who expects 5 years of free support for a consumer computer hardware product?
Unless you're a large vendor who is willing to pay for extended support from the manufacturer, I don't think you're going to have much luck finding any vendor that will guarantee 5 years of support.
Did you ask the manufacturer how much they would charge for a custom BIOS? Get a few thousand other people together who also want support for that product, and you can probably even afford it, though it's probably still going to cost mor
Re: (Score:2)
Agreed, in consumer electronics one should expect support to end the moment the sale is complete. If you want actual vendor support, you're buying a system, not individual components.
Rasberry Pi (no joke) (Score:2, Informative)
No spectre, no meltdown, support unmatched.
ARM though, no x86,
Which is one of the reasons the quality is so good.
Asus and Gigabyte (Score:2)
The one that ... (Score:2)
... you never had to call.
Not a bio's problem (Score:2)
From what I've read these problems can't be fixed by any kind of bios update. The only mitigations will be through microcode updates to your cpu or updates to your operating system. Also from what I've read Intel does not provide microcode updates for any cpu older than the 6th generation so if you have a 5th generation or older all your going to get is operating system mitigations. I don't use AMD cpu's so you'll have to check what generations of their cpu's have updates available and if you have an older
Gigabyte (Score:2)
asrock supports windows 7 (Score:2)
I am sure that other manufacturers have tools to slipstream all the necessary drivers into the image for you and make it uefi bootable now a days. But thats why I went with asrock 2 years ago, because they were one of the first to support win7 again fully. No problems so far.
People get brand loyal, but all mobo manufacturers are kinda the same. I usually just use newegg to filter for the features i want (be it usb ports, or sata channels, or dual m.2 x4 slots or whatever) and then buy the cheapest one that
That's now how Spectre or Meltdown are fixed (Score:2)
Can a BIOS update address spectre or meltdown?
I . . . don't think they can? The fixes from Intel are applied via microcode updates, generally delivered by OS vendors and having nothing to do with BIOS updates.
Am I missing something?
Get yourself a dual socket server board (Score:2)
But with only one processor, put in there just one Graphics card.
when the time to upgrade comes, instead of buying new processor+memory+mobo+graphics card, add a second processor, a second graphics card with NVLink or xFire, or more memory as needed, depending on bottle-neck.
More money upfront, but less money and hassle on the long run, and better support, to boot.
SuperMicro (Score:2)
Honestly. Listen, I know they're being trashed right now but it wasn't them... it was outsourcing 2 layers removed. It's unfortunate that they're young to take the sword for this.
I've been building PCs for over 25 years. I used to love Asus but recently switched to ASRock (Rack) and SuperMicro. Both provided excellent personalized support when I needed it. In fact it was just earlier this week that I emailed SM with a tech question and they responded relatively immediately with a detailed and enthusiastic a
Just check the motherboard box (Score:2, Informative)
Wait until 2019 (Score:2)
AMD Ryzen3 Zen2 will be coming out with security fixes and so will Intel's next generation CPUs. Also DDR 5 is coming out making your DDR 4 investment obsolete fast.
It is a CPU problem as stated as the bios can only do so much when the circuitry itself by default generates all sorts of forgone conclusions which is what branch prediction is.
A CPU fix will be needed and none are around. AMD is a little more secure but it too has 2 of the 3 spectre bugs that Intel has.
Recommend another manufacturer? (Score:2)
Yes, I can recommend another manufacturer, AMD.