Ask Slashdot: Why Does Suicide Seem To Be More Common Among Tech Workers? 274
tripleevenfall writes: At numerous points during my career in the tech industry, my workplaces have been affected by the suicide of an employee. Usually beginning with the receipt of a vague email that management has been "saddened" that someone had "passed away" recently, the truth soon becomes known and the questions begin circulating again. Why does suicide seem to be more common among tech workers? Is it due to lifestyle choices commonly associated with tech workers that lead to isolation? Are the personality types that choose tech work more prone to mental illnesses?
Because (Score:5, Informative)
Because for the vast majority, the job is shit and there's no meaningful escape outside of the job.
Beyond that, you've not provided any data on suicide rates, which I think you'd look up if you actually cared.
Re:Because (Score:5, Interesting)
History, a lot of tech workers were abused by jock strap douche bags and their cunt fungus buddy cheerleaders and never recovered fully and hence suffered latter in adult life. Where corporate main stream media still celebrates the abuse of nerds as a good thing, those shitty cunts still jealous of those smarter than them in school.
Abuse during school age in school is why they suffer later in life. Not geeks, we always enjoyed fighting back, win, lose or draw, the fight provided it's own reward, bullies, I loathe them and destroy them at every opportunity regardless of cost.
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Coupled with an introverted personality and a job that seems to actively discourage human contact and interaction, what could possibly go wrong?
Statistics? (Score:5, Interesting)
Why does suicide seem to be more common among tech workers?
Do you have actual statistics to back that up? Or is this just confirmation bias?
It's below average. OP has confirmation bias. (Score:5, Informative)
It's below average.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volum... [cdc.gov]
During 2000-2016, the suicide rate among the U.S. working age population (persons aged 16â"64 years) increased 34%, from 12.9 per 100,000 population to 17.3
Computer and Mathematical (Females)
Rate per 100,000 NR (2012) 7.3 (2015)
Computer and Mathematical (Males)
Rate per 100,000 18.1 (2012) 16.1 (2015)
OP suffers from confirmation bias.
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From Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]: ABC News and The Economist both have done some simple comparison — although the number of workplace suicides at Foxconn is large in absolute terms, the suicide rate is actually lower when compared to the overall suicide rate of China or the United States.
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People are too stupid to comprehend that the factory is a city, and will have all those statistics. It is rather pathetic.
I hear westerners whine about onsite housing and meals, but when people in SE Asia are considering going to Taiwan to work for a few years, those are things they look for in a job! The factory is a city, a city none of the workers are "from," a city none of the workers will live in when they're done with the job. And they're probably on a 4 year work visa and will return to their familie
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In the US, it's because older tech workers' jobs have been given to H1-B immigrants who are effectively chained to their sponsoring employer.
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Without looking at the numbers I would say perspective. Most of the suicides I see in the local paper are military personnel which makes sense since they make up the majority of the population where I live.
I'm sure if I lived in a tech metropolis instead of a military town it would be different.
Re: Statistics? (Score:5, Interesting)
It peaks for men in their 50s, unable to deal with the economy destroying their traditional role as chief breadwinner and family head. Risk factors include living in more rural areas (less access to mental health services), more access to firearms (again, rural), occupation under dire economic stress (farming).
Re: Statistics? (Score:5, Insightful)
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I looked (just a bit) for statistics. I found this. https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/ [afsp.org]. It shows that white people are more likely to commit suicide than other "races" in the United States. It shows that men are more likely than women to commit suicide in the United States. It shows that middle-aged white men (that's me!) are most likely to commit suicide. And it shows that the most popular method of committing suicide is by firearm.
This falls short, though, of establishing a causal l
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Any gun owner with the common sense God gave geese will *never, ever* seek mental health services, or ever put themselves in a position where they might be prescribed antidepressant drugs. Doing so would just ensure that their guns will be taken from them. (Several recent "red flag" laws do *exactly* this...)
Suicide is often wise. This is why. (Score:3)
It should be noted firearm suicide is a perfectly logical, rational and reasonable solution to many irreversible problems, but pointing that out is taboo.
For example I've chronic pain from spine and neck damage which will only get worse and the damage causing that pain will eventually leave me a helpless cripple.
Wishful thinking won't change that. I won't off myself with a firearm since I know the statistic will be used towards disarming lawful gun owners, but when the time comes I will freely leave this mo
Basement separation (Score:3, Informative)
Home office, living alone, Cheetos, diet coke, lack of interactions. Like a prison cell.
Do I need to continue?
Suicide not common among tech workers (Score:5, Informative)
I'm not sure that suicide actually is more prevalent within tech workers. There are statistics that break down suicide rates by industry of employment.
This article has rates in the United States by profession, but it does not list tech in the top 25 industries for suicide rates.
https://www.registerednursing.... [registerednursing.org]
Yes, THIS is the only reply that matters. (Score:5, Insightful)
I logged in for the first time in 6 months to thank you for a voice of reason against this pure BS.
Suicide is bad in any situation, but just MAKING UP crap like this is just stupidity.
FFS, why does 'tech workers' have to be such a thing these days?
People who think tech workers are the most sexist should go and work in construction, or farming!
People who think tech works suffer from unusually long working hours should try starting their own business and see how that is.
And people who think tech workers have high suicide rates should try google for about 20 seconds!
And finally, if Tech is just so terrible - then look for another job! Its not rocket science you know.
Oh, and just to add... what about males? (Score:2)
No comment on the fact that men are almost 4 times more likely to commit suicide? Really? Yes, lets focus on the false tech workers thing, and ignore the elephiant in the corner.....
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No comment on the fact that men are almost 4 times more likely to commit suicide? Really? Yes, lets focus on the false tech workers thing, and ignore the elephiant in the corner.....
US only: Men have more often access to guns. Suicide attempts using guns are much more often "successful" in that the person dies
If you look at suicide attempts, the picture looks very different. And if you look at suicides not using guns, the picture looks.a lot different. Two thirds of _all_ gun deaths in the USA are suicide.
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You've got some derp on your chin. No, the other one.
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Relevant quote: Let us be assured of the Matter of Fact, before we trouble our selves with enquiring into the Cause.
- Fontenelle, 1687
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I'm not sure that suicide actually is more prevalent within tech workers. There are statistics that break down suicide rates by industry of employment.
This article has rates in the United States by profession, but it does not list tech in the top 25 industries for suicide rates.
https://www.registerednursing.... [registerednursing.org]
It's actually #12 on the list. Look again.
Re:Suicide not common among tech workers (Score:5, Informative)
It's actually #12 on the list. Look again.
The title of the dataset is "The professions with the highest (and lowest) suicide rates".
Above the chart, the article states "Across this data set of 22 occupations in 22 states, the suicide rate in 2015 was 16.9 deaths per 100,000 people, an increase of 10% from 2012."
The rate for "Computer and mathematical", which probable does include "tech" workers is at 14.0 per 100,000 or below average for the industries that this study looked at.
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Excuse me sir, how does this help the "woe is us" victim narrative that /. is so busily selling?
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Stop bringing attention to our plight of sitting quietly at our desk, doing our work with our headphones on. Someone might look too hard and figure out that's not code i'm looking at, but an ascii version of solitaire!
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I'm not sure that suicide actually is more prevalent within tech workers. There are statistics that break down suicide rates by industry of employment.
This article has rates in the United States by profession, but it does not list tech in the top 25 industries for suicide rates.
https://www.registerednursing.... [registerednursing.org]
From the link you provided, #12 is Computer and Mathematical... is that not tech industry?
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This article has rates in the United States by profession, but it does not list tech in the top 25 industries for suicide rates.
https://www.registerednursing.... [registerednursing.org]
Interesting... The professions generally seem to get more "social" the further down the list you get.
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The OP originally meant "sex workers" but the text to speech on their phone screwed it up.
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Often tech workers are lumped into "office" or "admin" so it's not really a meaningful data point
Even if it is and it still doesn't make the list after being inflated by the non tech office/admin workers then it really can't be that bad.
Loaded question? (Score:4, Insightful)
Biased observation (Score:5, Insightful)
You're in the tech industry. You notice when a tech worker offs himself (95%+ gender accurate), and it means more to you when self death is tech related. We are painfully self-absorbed.
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Please observe that women are more likely to ATTEMPT suicide. Men are more likely to succeed.
We need to break down the sexist barriers preventing women from succeeding!
Re: Biased observation (Score:2, Informative)
Men are more likely to succeed at suicide because they tend to use more effective methods such as shooting themselves, jumping, or driving into a bridgepost. Women tend to use methods such as pill overdose or wrist cutting. All methods that leave a greater chance of not working or being discovered before you reach the point if no return. Basically, women tend to use methods that leave a "pretty" or intact body. Even in death it's hard to escape societal pressure and conditioning.
Re: Biased observation (Score:2, Insightful)
Sigh, no, it has nothing to do with dying pretty. It has to do with the wrist cutters and pill poppers being dramatic cunts who don't -really- want to die. They want to get found and ambulanced to the ER and everyone to make a big fucking fuss over them forever. They thrive on the drama. They never take enough pills. Or they don't cut vertically and hop in a warm bath. Or they do it where/when they'll be found almost instantly.
Just drama queens.
But you had a nice theory. Luckily for you, you don't se
Re: Biased observation (Score:4, Interesting)
Women also use methods that are a "cry for help", seeking attention. The idea that they prefer to "leave a pretty body" is a fascinating one. It has me looking at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p... [nih.gov], a study that pointed out that men tended to shoot themselves in the head while women who used guns tended to shoot themselves in the body.
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Most of the people who commit suicide don't want to die, they just don't see any viable outcome or way out than suicide.
It's a "solution" to a situation that just doesn't seem to have any satisfactory solution.
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> t's a "solution" to a situation that just doesn't seem to have any satisfactory solution.
May I differ, based on the number of attempted suicides whose agony is relieved, at least in the short term, by the attention they receive for attempting solution? For many of them, it' can be a _successful_ pleas for help. As such, it's often a very successful solution.
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Women also use methods that are a "cry for help", seeking attention.
While I implicitly touched on that, I wanted to stay away from expressly addressing it. It certainly happens, and frequently enough, that it adds even more stigma to the idea of asking for help. People driven to suicide already have a hard enough time asking for help, so the last thing they need is for someone to label them as a drama queen. If someone is thinking about committing suicide you want them to call for help.
t has me looking at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p [nih.gov]... [nih.gov], a study that pointed out that men tended to shoot themselves in the head while women who used guns tended to shoot themselves in the body.
There was another point I neglected to touch on: men tend to select methods that are f
Re:Biased observation (Score:5, Insightful)
You're in the tech industry. You notice when a tech worker offs himself (95%+ gender accurate), and it means more to you when self death is tech related. We are painfully self-absorbed.
A widely-used name for this sort of bias is "Accessibility bias". We tend to judge the frequency of events by the ease with which we can recall them, which in turn tends to be dictated by how many of them happen within our personal experience plus how many of them we see in the news multiplied by the emotional impact and simplicity/clarity of the narrative. I guess you could call it self-absorption, but that implies it's some sort of moral failing when in fact it's just how our brains work.
In a hunter-gatherer's world, or even that of a person living in a small tribe or village, the accessibility heuristic is a reasonably good one. In the inconceivably larger and more complex world in which we live it's more likely to mislead than inform, but it's how our brains are wired. We can overcome it by deliberately choosing to reject our own innate sense of frequency and instead seeking out data, correctly collected and analyzed.
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Well done.
Highest & Lowest Suicide Rates by Profession (Score:5, Informative)
https://www.registerednursing.org/suicide-rates-profession/
dealing with social pressures, or not (Score:2)
Maybe you're the reason (Score:4, Interesting)
Apparently several people in tech, in your sphere of experiences, have killed themselves. So was "tech" the reason? Or were you the common element, the cause?
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Ha, I love how this is modded +5 Interesting. I think +5 Hilarious is more apt, but maybe he has a point.
Because... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: Because... (Score:4, Interesting)
"They tricked us into adopting agile"
No one was ticked into adopting it. Agile(tm) was imposed, top down, against the will of those whom it bedevils.
I've never known a suicide (Score:5, Interesting)
3-4 months later, a co-worker and I are at the airport going on a business trip. I read the paper, she did not. I found Lance's obituary, which was a shock. I told Diana (odd I remember both names, 40 years later), she started crying.
That was something of a shock, a guy my age, with pretty much my background, dying after being sick for maybe 6 months.
Back to the topic at hand, I don't know anyone in the past 61 years who have committed suicide. Dying for stupid reasons in Jr high school, ya. Dying due to disease in my 20s, yeah. Dying due to disease in my 50s. That one hurt. When I say "when I was a kid we", the "we" was 9 times out of 10 Mike. Mike died of Lou Gehrig's disease about 6 years ago. That was a kick in the head.
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Personally, I can think of at least 3 people I knew casually who committed suicide (nobody close). The rate is so low that no individual is going to be able to draw statistically meaningful conclusions from their personal observa
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Wait... are YOU a tech worker (Score:2)
If so, then it probably seems more prevalent with tech workers because that's who you interact with the most.
You don't have a good random sample of people; and you see a relatively rare phenomena happen most within the group you have the largest exposure too and interest in. That's textbook confirmation bias.
How many dentists do you know? Pharmacists? Vets? If one of them committed suicide how would you even know? They all commit suicide at higher rates...
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The chart says everybody in the medical industry have lower rates.
Their rates are way below average.
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What "chart"?
https://mentalhealthdaily.com/... [mentalhealthdaily.com]
puts Dr's at #1
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/t... [cbsnews.com]
puts "Doctors, Dentists, and Medical health professionals" down at #12
https://www.therichest.com/ric... [therichest.com]
puts Dr's at #1, Dentists at #2
etc... so i guess it depends on the study; and how people are grouped. I find it hard to beleive Dr's are both number 1 and number 12; at first blush it seems like maybe including "other health care professionals" in the category is enough to bring the average down... radiologists, n
Intelligence, not IT (Score:3)
Intelligence is required for IT work, and it unfortunately is correlated with suicide.
Smarter people are, for a variety of reasons, more likely to commit suicide. It's probably one of the reasons why animals so rarely commit suicide. Although I do wonder about the cetaceans that beach themselves.
Suicide involves a complex train of thought, thinking about the future and predicting it will not get better. The stupider you are the less likely this will happen.
In addition, I suspect that the lower potential for advancement in most IT jobs, which are all too often the equivalent of blue collar maintenance jobs, may also relate.
But most of it is merely intelligence.
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Suicide is very rarely the result of a "complex chain of thought." People do not logic themselves into suicide. Suicide is usually the result of acute depression, which is itself the result of a chemical imbalance in the brain.
On still does plenty of thinking, when in this state, but that thinking is muddled. Every thought is tainted with irrational emotions and a skewed perception of one's circumstance.
A person can get their brain-chemicals out of whack like this by being under too much stress for too l
"seem" (Score:3)
Something "seems" the way it is because you have the impression or sensation. It is *your* opinion. Ask yourself why you feel this way. Obviously facts and data are not part of this conversation.
Childhoods, Awkwardness and Negative Stereotypes (Score:5, Insightful)
Tech workers are more likely to be socially awkward and thus are more likely to end up with few/no friends and without a romantic partner. Both things which are incredibly significant in terms of depression and suicide risk.
Also, I suspect childhood experiences have a lot to do with it. Many people who are tech workers today were treated pretty awfully (maybe because of the above or vice-versa) by their peers as children (bullying etc..) and that can have a lasting effect.
The stereotypes of tech workers in the media and community really don't help. Knowing that people think of you as an over-privileged, rich, entitled asshole and dismiss your claims of suffering and unfortunate situation makes one far less inclined to seek professional help (amplifies the sense that one doesn't deserve it and requesting help would make you even more pathetic). The fact that as a society we feel sympathy for those who can't find a job but feel it's ok to mock and devalue those who can't find a romantic/life partner makes it even worse*.
*: Of course, this has nothing to do with the assholes who act like they are entitled to particular people dating them (and sadly I do feel I have to indicate this) but it's totally indefensible to react to someone who is romantically unlucky (e.g. has a personality others don't find attractive) and is, thereby, missing those things that most of us feel give our lives the *most* value and meaning (our partners..and for those who have them, children) by calling them a loser rather than feeling empathy and compassion just because there are some assholes who are also in that situation. That's like getting mugged by a poor minority and reacting by calling all poor minorities thugs and lazy wastes of space. A few bad apples shouldn't eliminate our compassion.
"Out of the Nightmare" and other resources (Score:5, Informative)
Other replies have pointed out that tech workers don't seem to have a high rate overall, but we can still ask why it is higher than it might be otherwise (especially given well paying jobs), and your reply helps answer that.
Related, many tech types are somewhere on the Autism spectrum (especially mild Asperger's) and as a recent study shows this has been linked to suicidal thinking:
"Suicidal Thoughts 10 Times More Likely in Adults With Asperger's"
https://psychcentral.com/news/... [psychcentral.com]
In particular, many women with Asperger's don't realize it because they become good at covering it up at an early age. Asperger's creates an unusual set of issues in romantic relationships when on or both people are Aspies. There are some good books out there on sorting through those challenges and opportunities and making the most of them.
Overall, a good way to cure most depression is a combination of sunlight, omega-3s, exercise, face-to-face socialization, sleep, and avoiding ruminant thinking. Unfortunately, many tech types (as well as many others in Western countries) avoid going outdoors, don't eat well, don't exercise, don't interact face-to-face, get too little sleep staying up using brightly lit screens, and can easily get stuck in negative cycles of self-absorbed thought. This is explained by Stephen Iliardi here:
"Depression is a disease of civilization: Stephen Ilardi at TEDxEmory"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
https://tlc.ku.edu/ [ku.edu]
"We were never designed for the sedentary, indoor, sleep-deprived, socially-isolated, fast-food-laden, frenetic pace of modern life. (Stephen Ilardi, PhD)"
If depression is instead mainly related to unresolved trauma, see "The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma".
For those who have been bullied growing up, here is one approach by Izzy Kalman that works sometimes in some situations: https://bullies2buddies.com/ [bullies2buddies.com]
I list some other resources for improving mental wellness here:
https://github.com/pdfernhout/... [github.com]
One key idea from the book "Out of the Nightmare: Recovery from Depression and Suicidal Pain" by David Conroy can be summarized as: "Suicide is not chosen; it happens when pain exceeds resources for coping with pain. That's all it's about. You are not a bad person, or crazy, or weak, or flawed, because you feel suicidal. It doesn't even mean that you really want to die - it only means that you have more pain than you can cope with right now. If I start piling weights on your shoulders, you will eventually collapse if I add enough weights... no matter how much you want to remain standing. Willpower has nothing to do with it. Of course you would cheer yourself up, if you could. Don't accept it if someone tells you, "That's not enough to be suicidal about." There are many kinds of pain that may lead to suicide. Whether or not the pain is bearable may differ from person to person. What might be bearable to someone else, may not be bearable to you. The point at which the pain becomes unbearable depends on what kinds of coping resources you have. Individuals vary greatly in their capacity to withstand pain. When pain exceeds pain-coping resources, suicidal feelings are the result. Suicide is neither wrong nor right; it is not a defect of character; it is morally neutral. It is simply an imbalance of pain versus coping resources. You can survive suicidal feelings if you do either of two things: (1) find a way to reduce your pain, or (2) find a way to increase your coping resources. Both are possible."
As I mention on that page, one of the fundamental challenges in an organization or society is to destigmatize asking for help to avoid the classic dillema
Re:"Out of the Nightmare" and other resources (Score:4, Interesting)
Thanks so much for this great comment. It's very hard to explain depression and suicidal thoughts to people who have not experienced them.
I'd just like to add something. Pain can be cumulative. A small amount of pain for a very long time can be worse, in terms of your mental health, than a lot of pain for a short time. So while someone's problems may not seem that bad from the outside, keep in mind they may have been suffering for years, decades even.
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You are not... crazy, or weak, or flawed, because you feel suicidal. ...
"You can survive suicidal feelings if you do either of two things: (1) find a way to reduce your pain, or (2) find a way to increase your coping resources. Both are possible."
These two lessons seem to be in contradiction. If there are things they can do, then why isn't a weakness or flaw that they can overcome?
Is there some sort of middle ground where you still respect them as a person and try to be positive and supportive, but also still try to teach them what they can do?
It seems like the standard communication strategies are two-faced and don't even try to connect the two sides of the message in the middle.
I understand you don't want a person to feel that they're flawed merel
It's not. (Score:5, Informative)
Check the CDC numbers and you'll see it's not particularly high: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volum... [cdc.gov]
53.2 per 100,000 - Construction and Extraction
39.7 per 100,000 - Arts, Design, Entertainment, Sports, and Media:
39.1 per 100,000 - Installation, Maintenance, and Repair
30.9 per 100,000 - Transportation and Material Moving
30.5 per 100,000 - Production
28.2 per 100,000 - Protective Service
26.8 per 100,000 - Building and Grounds Cleaning and Maintenance
25.6 per 100,000 - Health Care Practitioners and Technical
22.8 per 100,000 - Farming, Fishing, and Forestry
21.5 per 100,000 - Sales and Related
20.9 per 100,000 - Food Preparation and Serving Related
19.5 per 100,000 - Health Care Support
19.4 per 100,000 - Architecture and Engineering
18.7 per 100,000 - Legal
17.8 per 100,000 - Management
16.5 per 100,000 - Personal Care and Service
16.1 per 100,000 - Computer and Mathematical
15.8 per 100,000 - Office and Administrative Support
15.0 per 100,000 - Life, Physical, and Social Science
14.6 per 100,000 - Community and Social Service
13.0 per 100,000 - Business and Financial Operations
10.9 per 100,000 - Education, Training, and Library
My unscientific theory is that the people writing software are driving the people using software to suicide. ;)
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My unscientific theory is that the people writing software are driving the people using software to suicide. ;)
You mean software like Reddit, 4chan, Discord and sometimes Slashdot? ;) Social media is mostly toxic.
Better Unemployment Than The Dirt Nap (Score:2)
At numerous points during my career in the tech industry, my workplaces have been affected by the suicide of an employee.
As another comenter pointed out [registerednursing.org], tech ranks 12 out of 22 for professions with the highest suicide rate. If fact, if you scroll down the page you will see that the suicide rate for the "Computers and Mathematics" field has gone down a little bit.
So maybe the problem isn't the tech industry (although there's certainly room for improvement) in general, but the management of the companies y
The unappreciated, working for the uneducated... (Score:5, Interesting)
Perhaps it's because the vast majority of what we do for a living is incomprehensible to most of the people we do it for. This would be fine if those we did it for appreciated the complexity and intricacy of what we do, but most do not. They assume technology should "just work." When you try to explain there is much more going on behind the scenes than they're aware of, their eyes glaze over. They don't care. It should be simple, they say, like turning on a light switch is simple. You're just making it sound more difficult than it really is, they say, because you're lazy, or incompetent, or trying to keep your job. They demand you do more, do it faster, with less testing and preparation, less staff, less equipment...and when it inevitably doesn't work right the first time, they're right there to scream at you for not getting it right.
The old quote "We Have Done So Much with So Little for So Long, that Now We Can Do Anything with Nothing" becomes the expectation. I run an IT department for a company with this problem right now. My predecessors were largely incompetent and I inherited a huge mess. I'm trying to fix everything with no documentation and a staff that's never been trained on the gear we have. And because I'm taking the time to try and, gee, I dunno...discover and document what I find so I can plan how to make sense of this mess, things aren't going as fast as the C-level people think. They are, of course, judging the pace based on my predecessors, who did everything fast and shoddy with little care on whether something would work in the long run or even interoperate with everything else at the company. Nothing was tested; it was just put in. If it broke stuff...well, we'll fix that later. Eventually. Maybe, after the next project. Maybe became never. The whole house of cards was primed to come down, which it did, which is why my predecessors are no long employed here. Now I'm trying to fix everything and they're wondering why I'm not doing things "the way we always have." They seem to have forgotten that doing things that way is exactly what led them to hire me to clean up these messes.
These days my staff feels grossly unappreciated by basically all the company management. Oh, the users love us. They think we're kicking ass, and we are, one problem at a time. But stuff like that seems below the radar to company management. I'm trying to rectify years of neglect in mere months which is no small task for an environment this size and a budget this small. I've been in this industry for more than 25 years and this is the norm. No wonder people get depressed. I like a challenge as much as the next guy but there are days when I really wonder whether it's worth the frustration.
Because even tech people crave human connection... (Score:4, Insightful)
... and computers have no souls.
I came dangerously close to being one of those statistics back in the day.
Being good in the tech industry requires you to become part of a virtuous circle that goes like this:
You're good with computers, because you understand them.
So you get a job working with them.
The more you work with them, the more you understand them. But they rub off on you and affect how you think.
Because to get better at computers, you have to think more like them.
Which makes it harder for you relate to humans.
And that hard time relating to humans makes you push harder into the computers.
Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
It's like the saying goes, find a job that becomes you. But don't get so immersed in it that you become the job.
Taking a job in IT is the top of the slippery slope into the latter half of that statement.
And it takes a lot of effort to realize that you need to pull yourself out. And even more to actually do it.
Re:Because even tech people crave human connection (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you WAY watered that down.
I think it is more like this:
o You are good with computers, because you understand them.
o You get a job working with computers.
o You become better with computers, programming systems, logic and coding.
o You get an even better job working with computers.
o You have 10 projects that each take 6 months to complete working 12 hour days, but have a deadline of 12 months to complete all of them, somehow you do it in 18 months. (no vacations or time off)
o You have 20 projects that each take 9 months to complete working 14 hour days (and have become more complex), you have a deadline of 12 months to complete all of them, somehow you do it in 16 months. (no vacations or time off)
o You have 50 projects that each take 12 months to complete working 16 hour days (extremely complex), you have a deadline of 8 months to complete all of them, because they think you are that good and always pull off Miracles. Somehow you complete SOME them in 24 months, you are written up and reprimanded for extremely missing the deadlines. (no vacations or time off)
o You are given another 10 projects, with stern warnings on deadlines, and are becoming further and further behind, you beg for more help! They say they have no money, you can do it! (no vacations or time off) You are into computers you look up their net profit and see it was 4 billion dollars!
o You are given another 10 projects, with stern warning on deadlines, asking why projects are slipping and you are begging and crying for help, they still say no money for help, (you are pissed because you KNOW they are lying!) and you are now working 18 hours a day and only sleep when you can, monster and redbull are your drink and leftovers in the company fridge is what you eat. You are never off of work or out with friends you never see your family and then one day you snap and no longer exist.
The company is in "AWE" what happened to Johnny wow to just snap like that and take is own life he must have had an unhappy home life!
WTF!!!! They have no F'n clue!
I have seen this over and over and over, management does NOT understand IT and doesn't want to. They don't see people burn out and help them, and while they don't notice they keep pushing them until they end their life.
Re:Because even tech people crave human connection (Score:4, Interesting)
Well, yeah. I didn't want to exacerbate anyone else's depression in a Slashdot post. :)
You forgot:
* You're acutely aware of how rickety the house of cards you call a tech stack is. And even though you've built in redundancies and failsafes, you live in mild, ever-present fear that something will crash when you least anticipate it, bringing the whole thing down. Typically during dinner on a Tuesday.
* You spend most weekends manning the out of office "Support phone", which means even your weekends are never free from work-related stress.
* Having to completely erase parts of your brain every six to nine months as new software/operating systems ship, replacing what was formerly a well-known problem space with bugs you knew how to fix and the rewriting that part with an entirely new problem space that you only discover by living through a fresh array of random outages and inexplicable problems you never had before. Usually in the middle of a big presentation or five minutes after you roll out a new product or service.
It's a very real issue though. And few IT shops have the resources to keep their IT staff on the "normal" side of the spectrum. Even fewer of them are willing to even admit that there might be an issue.
It's a bit better now that nerd-dom has become ascendant in culture. But I don't know how it'll unfold if the tides change.
I remember back in my early IT days reading an article in CIO magazine about how most IT people had burned out of the industry by the age of 35, and ways to plan for or mitigate it. When I was 26, I thought, "This is crazy". Then as I got closer to 35, I thought, "Yeah, I totally get it."
Re:Because even tech people crave human connection (Score:5, Informative)
Oh yeah, if anyone out there is reading any of the above and it sounds like you:
GET HELP.
I cannot stress that enough.
There's tons of resources out there. Everything from the suicide hotline (1-800-273-8255) to meeting up with actual humans. (There's even make technology to make that easier.)
You're not alone in how you feel.
The world still needs your particular flavor of genius.
You may just need to find a better place to apply it.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:2)
You have 10 projects that each take 6 months to complete working 12 hour days, but have a deadline of 12 months to complete all of them, somehow you do it in 18 months. (no vacations or time off)
Learning to say no is very, very hard to do, but also essential.
When a deadline is unrealistic, you have to say so. Document it in an email so there is evidence if they try to blame you when it doesn't get done on time. You warned them. You told them what would have to be cut, how many more engineers they needed to hire to meet their deadline.
They really want you to say yes, but for your own sake you have to say no.
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, Once you get to the point of missing vacation time to meet unreasonable deadlines, you've let it gone too far. You really need to start saying "No" at that point for your own sanity, and the sanity of the other people around you.
Besides, you're not really doing anyone a favor by working 14 hour days 7 days a week, because the quality of your work is going to suck at that point and you're just making your co-workers job more difficult because they have to clean up your shit.
because employers want tech workers to be robots (Score:2)
The tech field (engineering, science, etc) is a rather tedious, often dry profession. Employers want workers to churn out product, with little regard to whether the workers fully understand the product or are valued.
Add to that the common asshat manager who, maybe bullied at youth and now empowered to control others, feels it's their duty to control and terrorize their underlings. You might scoff at such exaggeration, but exaggerate I do not. I've seen it so many times it's simply pathetic.
They Don't Fuck (Score:3, Insightful)
Most tech workers are:
- Awkward. Less than they used to be, but it's still there, especially if they're actually competent.
- Underpaid relative to where they live.
- Brutally overworked.
- In social environments where the smallest flirt can metoo you out of your career.
They don't fuck. They can't fuck. Nobody will let them fuck. It's starting to happen to the women too, in contravention of all natural order. They are total basketcases because of their lack of fucking.
Re: (Score:3)
You missed one.
Most tech workers are:
- Men.
Men are several times more likely to commit suicide. Answer what troubles men so much, and you'll have your answers about tech workers.
Re: (Score:2)
Whatever is troubling "men" doesn't seem to be troubling "tech workers" to the same degree.
It's not tech workers, it's men. (Score:3)
The mistake you're making is by framing things too small. It's not about the profession. It's about the demographics of that profession... mostly men. Men are many times more prone to commit suicide than women. You won't get any rational answers to the tech worker question unless you answer the broader question of why men suffer so much more in this respect.
Anecdotal evidence (Score:2)
A bit of googling will show you that there are quite a few professions with more suicides.
But as has already been said elsewhere, professions with a higher percentage of males have a higher percentage of suicides, simply because males tend to commit suicide a lot more.
Do you live in an area with a higher altitude? (Score:3)
"Why might counties at higher altitudes – primarily observed in the western region of the country – be more likely to have higher suicide rates? One reasonable explanation could be the effects of hypoxia, or a deficiency in the amount of oxygen reaching the tissues. This can influence the body’s metabolism of serotonin, one of the neurotransmitters related to aggressive behavior and suicide. Several studies suggest that chronic hypoxia increases mood disturbances, especially in patients with emotional instability."
http://theconversation.com/the... [theconversation.com]
Re:Do you live in an area with a higher altitude? (Score:4, Informative)
The premise of altitude being a contributing factor is hogwash. Your body creates more hemoglobin to carry more oxygen around so your oxygen level ends up being exactly the same as if you were at sea level. That is why the US Olympics personnel train in Colorado Springs.
There will be a shortish (3 weeks or so) period where you may feel out of breath, but if you live at altitude continuously, this minor issue goes away completely.
Re: (Score:2)
**Seem**? (Score:2)
So, SlashDot now promotes someones **perceptions** as if it were article worthy? No links, no references to any study of any nature, just some bozo's *feelz*?
"At numerous points...." (Score:2)
Look for the common denominator. Maybe it was you.
You dare to ask such a fucking stupid question? (Score:2)
We work with fucking annoyingly complex software that never fucking works and loses functionality with every new version because of fucking dumb users, then we have to deal with fucking annoying clients that are stupid as a doorknob, then we have to deal with our fucking stupid co-workers and our dumb as a rock bosses who think I.T. is easy because they spend all their fucking day sending emails and calling the dumb-as-shit clients!
And then, when we try to take a small break by reading slashdot, we're getti
MS Outlook sysadmin work (Score:2)
How many of them were in charge of Outlook servers?
Why Does Cancer Seem To Be More Common Among Tech (Score:2)
Baader–Meinhof anyone? (Score:2)
Because it's around you. (Score:2)
It may SEEM more prevalent in your industry because you're experiencing its after-effects more frequently than you HEAR about it happening in other industries.
It's the same reason people think they're more likely to die from murder than a heart attack-- they hear about murders all day on the news but no one reports a obese person #334,291,928 having his third heart attack.
Atheism? (Score:2)
I couldn't find proof of it, but having been in the industry for years I suspect there is a higher level of atheism in IT then other industries.
It's pretty well documented atheists are more likely to commit suicide, which is a logical extension of their world view. It would be interesting to know is if there is some common characteristic of atheists that lead them to have an attraction to IT. Or to put it another way , which is causality and which is coloration.
I suspect that higher levels of suic
Why does suicide SEEM to be more common... (Score:2)
If you are working in a company that employs only tech workers, if someone commits suicide in that company, he will obviously be a tech worker. And you are less likely to hear about suicide in others companies, because obviously, that's not where you are working.
It creates a bias. Even if suicide is not particularly common in tech, it will seem to you like most suicides are from tech workers.
You can reverse the bias by thinking about people who didn't commit suicide. You probably know a lot more tech worker
Re: (Score:2)
IT workers are among those who maintain the candy coating that separates the masses from the underlying reality. As such, we are "blessed" with the "opportunity" to see more of it.
Or, is there a mental outlook involved? I have long told everyone that if I hear the bells tolling, I'm checking out. It isn't depression. It's pragmatism. I've lived a good life, I'm allergic to opioids, and there is no way I am going to bankrupt my family for the joyous fun of spending a few months longer, probably in horrible pain. There are living states worse than death.
I'm reasonably ceratin a lot of technically oriented people have a similar outlook.
Re: (Score:2)
You don't describe tech culture, you describe "macho asshole cheesehead" culture.
You're just one of those jerks in the Gillette ad.
You're repeating almost word-for-word a standard right-wing virtue-signaling trope.
Very few tech people have that outlook. But if you look at the suicide by occupation site somebody linked above, you can see that it is much more common among construction workers, and very rare among teachers and social workers.
Re: (Score:2)
Words may have more than one meaning. Perhaps if you can comprehend that football wasn't being discussed, you'd be able to continue considering definitions of the word down the list all the way to one that fits the context! LOL
It makes little sense to accuse other people of insanity before even just attempting to rub two brain cells together and check if you simply failed to correctly parse the words.
Not my problem.
Re: (Score:3)
No. It's just you. I've suffered that level of pain. I had a nerve compressed such that it was firing off 100% pain signals at my brain 24x7 for several years. Your body simply cannot generate more pain than I had. Yet, here I am. Eventually (we're talking years of disability and misery) I found a medical solution and it stopped but I never once contemplated suicide. You just don't like life enough to live it. Just as well if you decide to off yourself to make way for others who can make better use of their time on earth.
You still write like you are really miserable. Your last sentence simply shows that you are a sullen angry person filled with hatred. Enjoy your life, I wish you only long life, good health, and many people to love you.
Re: (Score:2)
You still write like you are really miserable. Your last sentence simply shows that you are a sullen angry person filled with hatred. Enjoy your life, I wish you only long life, good health, and many people to love you.
My goodness, you were just blathering some right wing macho virtue-signaling bullshit about how you'd kill yourself before you'd let your family take care of you, and now you're accusing somebody who understands and agrees with you about your value of being a "sullen and angry person." Get the fuck over yourself, you're somebody who doesn't consider themselves worthy of being cared for by their own family. You have no right to judge another human being, ever. You don't have high enough value in your own eye
Re: (Score:2)
If you're trapped in a POW camp, blink twice and we'll send help.
Re:Tech workers? (Score:5, Insightful)
I work in a high end machine shop. We have nearly a hundred employees. No one in my company has suicidal tendencies as far as I know, and I know and talk to nearly all of them regularly.
Means nothing. Nobody knew Robin Williams was suicidal until it was too late.
Re: (Score:2)
He wasn't.
He had a very severe mental illness from which there is no recovery.
It was misdiagnosed.
It was too late for Robin Williams before he ever showed any symptoms. He isn't an example of a "real" suicide any more than a terminal cancer patient is.