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The Internet

Ask Slashdot: Why Do Popular Websites Have Bad UI Navigation? 235

A while back some "bored developers and designers" started uploading their ideas for the worst volume control interface in the world. But now Slashdot reader dryriver asks a more serious question: You follow a news story on CNN or BBC or FoxNews or Reuters. The frontpage of the news site changes so frequently that you wish there was a "News Timeline" UI element at the top of the page, letting you scrub back and forward in time (by hours, days, weeks, years) so you can see previous states of the frontpage and get a better sense of how the story developed over time. How many major news websites have this scrubbable Timeline UI element? Currently none do.

Or you go on Youtube. Hundreds of millions of videos for you to browse. Except that there are only 3 basic UI elements you can use -- keyword search, automated recommendations panel on the right, or a sortable list of a specific channel's uploaded videos.

- There is no visual network or node-diagram UI that would let you browse videos by association.

- There is no browsing by category (e.g. sports > soccer > amateurs > kids ) or by alphabetic order.

- There is no master index or master list of videos -- like a phonebook -- that you can call up to find videos you haven't come across yet.

And yet these UI elements are not very difficult to put in the user's hands at all. Why do websites with tens of millions of daily visitors and massive web development resources do so little to allow more sophisticated browsing for those users who desire it?

"Is there a cogent reason to restrict website navigation to 'simple, limited and dumb'," asks the original submission, "or do these websites simply not care enough or bother enough to put more sophisticated UIs into place?" Share your own thoughts in the comments.

Why do popular web sites have bad UI navigation?
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Ask Slashdot: Why Do Popular Websites Have Bad UI Navigation?

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  • Tablets and Phones (Score:5, Informative)

    by Shane_Optima ( 4414539 ) on Sunday August 04, 2019 @03:41AM (#59037012) Journal
    Tablets and phones. Ruined the god damned internet.

    Next question.
    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      You mean the things I do not use for surfing the web? Makes sense.

    • by LordWabbit2 ( 2440804 ) on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:22AM (#59037128)
      Agreed, "adaptive" web design sucks balls. It's adapting to various MOBILE touch screen sizes, and completely nerfs traditional PC mouse and keyboard.
      • by mentil ( 1748130 ) on Sunday August 04, 2019 @06:33AM (#59037310)

        To be fair, mouse and keyboard were OP.

      • by Sique ( 173459 )
        To be fair, HTML was designed to be "adaptive" from the very beginning. If you like a more static design, working well only on a single type of devices, then the Web is nothing for you.
      • by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

        Agreed, "adaptive" web design sucks balls. It's adapting to various MOBILE touch screen sizes, and completely nerfs traditional PC mouse and keyboard.

        Well, you can have good adaptive design that works for all. The thing is, the sites have analytics and realize those who actually use a traditional browser on a PC (desktop or laptop) a small minority. That, and PC design is harder simply because it's often an in-between resolution - a 1080p PC screen is bested by high end phones, and matched with low end tabl

        • That, and PC design is harder simply because it's often an in-between resolution - a 1080p PC screen is bested by high end phones, and matched with low end tablets. It beats low end phones though, and matched with midrange phones. Higher end tablets have higher resolutions.

          Resolution isn't the problem here as much as field of view. A layout intended for a 1920x1080 pixel PC screen will look unusably small on a 1920x1080 pixel phone screen, largely because the phone's screen is physically much smaller with higher pixel density. CSS recognizes this: 1px doesn't literally mean 1 pixel but instead 1/2700 radian* rounded to the nearest half pixel. If something is 270px wide, for example, it's supposed to be displayed about as wide as one-tenth of the distance from the eyes to the screen, no matter if the display is 96 dpi or four times that. Thus a phone screen might still be about 360px by 640px in CSS terms, even if it is a high-density display (such as Apple's Retina displays).

          In addition to the physically smaller screen, a phone, tablet, or 2-in-1 in tablet mode has much coarser pointer resolution than a desktop, laptop, or 2-in-1 in laptop mode. Most users of a mouse, trackpad, or stylus can reliably hit a target as small as 12px by 12px, but a finger user finds it hard to hit targets smaller than 48px in the smaller direction.

          * Based on the standard of a 96 dpi desktop computer monitor at a nominal arm's length of 28 inches away.

    • I'd have to second this. This is why, on a computer with a 15" 1080p IPS LCD, I have tons of websites that limit themselves to a relatively skinny center or left column and that collapse six main menu items under a MENU button with that stupid three-line "hamburger" logo. CSS has had the tools to NOT do things like that for ages. I had a from-scratch website around 6-7 years ago (before I got lazy and switched everything to WordPress) that I added mobile-friendliness to with a dash of per-page header stuff
  • Slot machine effect (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Hadlock ( 143607 ) on Sunday August 04, 2019 @03:52AM (#59037048) Homepage Journal

    Facebook and Twitter long ago got rid of reverse chronological order for their feeds. It's too easy to scroll down and read every post until you get to the point where you see posts you've read previously. It also makes it hard to make people spend money to show up in people's feeds more often as you'll see everything, in the correct order.
     
    The end result of randomizing whose posts and which of their posts you see, is you end up with a slot machine effect. Every time you open up facebook, twitter, etc you get a new, random assortment of new posts you (probably) haven't seen before. That random effect allows you to keep going back for more, allow facebook to direct posts at you that might be more engaging to keep you scrolling past more advertisements.

    • by jonwil ( 467024 )

      I don't know about Facebook (since I refuse to sign up to the Zuckerberg empire) but on Twitter I see posts from all the people I follow and I see them in order so I can see what's new since I last visited. Promoted tweets are another matter but I dont see those thanks to AdBlock Plus :)

      YouTube on the other hand, its impossible to get it to actually show me videos I want to see half the time, too often I get crap I have already seen or videos from channels I never want to watch (YouTube needs a "never show

      • I'd appreciate a setting such that I could restrict the lower limit of positive / negative votes. Too many videos with millions of views are nonsense and despite having large negative reviews, they show up everywhere because they have a high viewer count, and you can't directly see the rating until clicking.
    • It doesn't help also that there isn't a central giant table of all news that is easy to query.

      Facebook, Google, Twitter all tend to uses various types of Map-Reduce.

  • The longer you stay on the site and try to wade through looking for actual information, higher the probability you will see and/or click on some advertisement or a banner, even if by accident.
    It's all about clicks.

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Well, I guess I am in the minority that mostly avoids using this atrocity altogether. Basically I check on 2-3 people that post things I like from time to time but that is it.

      • If you subscribe to one of the non-free tiers of Inoreader they let you add up to 30 social media accounts from each platform as feeds in your RSS folders. (30 is a weird limitation, but I'm guessing it has to do with what they're allowed to do with each platform's API as a third party.) I find viewing social media posts like that to be far superior to any of the platform's native attempts to show me content. I can keep important posts unread or save them, and I can blow by new posts I'm not interested in i

  • by xack ( 5304745 ) on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:11AM (#59037096)
    The same ui “experts” that gave us Gnome 3 do websites now.
  • Ads (Score:5, Insightful)

    by reanjr ( 588767 ) on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:18AM (#59037118) Homepage

    All of those mentioned sites are ad supported. The user experience is not what they are designing the UI for. They are designing it so you see more ads.

  • by TJHook3r ( 4699685 ) on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:21AM (#59037122)
    Maybe most users don't like complexity - that would be one explanation why the most popular sites have 'bad UI' (in your opinion).
    • They're patently shit to use on widescreens, though. They're all obviously designed for portrait mode. Do your monitors swivel? Because mine don't. It is obviously a case of them breaking shit for PC users in order to make it more familiar to mobile users. I guess you can call that elegance or lack of complexity if you really want.
      • That or column width limits are an adaptation to the fact that it's a lot harder to read text wider than about 80 columns without accidentally skipping a line or repeating a line. There's a reason that newspapers have been printed in columns.

        My computer's window manager has a snap feature. I can split one 1920x1080 pixel monitor into two 960x1080 pixel areas, each of which can host a web browser. In Windows, try Win+Left or Win+Right. In Windows or Xfce, try dragging a window to the left or right edge of th

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Youtube has categories, they are not just easy to find. Example [youtube.com].

  • by Mageaere ( 726231 ) on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:48AM (#59037172)
    Fresh food at the front to lure passers buy in and tempt you on the way out.
    Staples such as milk, eggs and meat at the back.
    Put things that are commonly bought in a single shop at opposite sides of the store so that you wander hither and yon through all the branding and packaging advertising.
    If they made things orderly so that personal shoppers could efficiently shop for a dozen people at a time, or standardized their pricing systems so that they could easily be compared with other stores, their profits would tumble.
    It is these same principles applied to websites that makes the UI so difficult to use. They are not selling the UI. Thy UI is the tool they harvest their prey with. It is not meant to be enjoyed by the cattle.
  • by sanf780 ( 4055211 ) on Sunday August 04, 2019 @04:57AM (#59037178)
    As far as I can tell these websites are doing alright. There is no need to worry. They know what they are doing. If you do not like it, then do not be a user.

    For example, YouTube seems alright. You start one video showing a respected rat by the kids and end up with a parody video made by a troll (this story was told by someone at TED). Users are not engaged on actively looking for the next video, they want the machines to think for them. You are well above the average user, I am afraid.

  • There is no browsing by category (e.g. sports > soccer > amateurs > kids ) or by alphabetic order.

    Rightfully so. World switched from categories (singular tagging) to (multiple) tagging last millennium.

    • There is no browsing by category (e.g. sports > soccer > amateurs > kids ) or by alphabetic order.

      Rightfully so. World switched from categories (singular tagging) to (multiple) tagging last millennium.

      Not porn sites, which unfortunately still consider "lesbian" as a category rather than a description of participants only then that you apply categories to.

      • There is no browsing by category (e.g. sports > soccer > amateurs > kids ) or by alphabetic order.

        Rightfully so. World switched from categories (singular tagging) to (multiple) tagging last millennium.

        Not porn sites, which unfortunately still consider "lesbian" as a category rather than a description of participants only then that you apply categories to.

        Question: What does "Gay" fall under in porn sites? Category or description of participants?

  • is all that is missing from these websites.

  • Especially when you want to direct your users to what you want them to find.
  • All three items mentioned are present in news web sites.

    There is no visual network or node-diagram UI that would let you browse videos by association.

    CNN's web site has an entire section called, "Videos", one can use. You can even search in that section.

    There is no browsing by category (e.g. sports > soccer > amateurs > kids ) or by alphabetic order

    Again, CNN's site has headers for each section such as Sports, Opinion, Tech, etc. That they don't get as granular as the writer wants is not a flaw.

    • by tomhath ( 637240 )
      Submitter is whining because every site isn't like Facebook.

      Is there a cogent reason to restrict website navigation to 'simple, limited and dumb'

      Yes, there is a very good reason...simple websites are very usable. Ever visited Google's homepage? Or for the other extreme, try Flickr.

  • That's easy: Categories and tree structures is a concept lost on general public. Everyone gave up on organizing and grouping related stuff. See Windows Start menu for example. Instead what they do is to automatically tag everything and search based on keywords. Shrug.
  • Offering the features you describe costs "money" (time, developer brainpower, support costs). What's the money payback? For some news sites that offer the identical syndicated content as a thousand other sites, I guess I would listen to an argument that says "users will come to our site preferentially even though the same exact Reuters stories are on every other site", but it's pretty thin, at best. For sites that have no competitors, the argument has no legs at all. "They'll come here anyway; we can sugges
    • by redelm ( 54142 )

      BINGO! If keyword search works for 90+% of users, why add layers that will break? Categorization is much tougher than it sounds -- uploaders will miss-classify.

      Besides, YT is now owned by GOOG who built their business by ignoring classification (remember Yahoo!?) and refining PageRank. If you don't like it, use a different search or do your own advertising. There are probably also advanced search options (tags) to do some of what you want.

      • by jythie ( 914043 )
        Heh, reminds me about the old joke of every linguist the company fires their search results improve by x%. A lot of GOFAI stuff that people thought made sense in search ended up not working all that well.
  • See forum topics and usenet.
    Why was it lost? Ads.
  • Simple, their goal of monetization competes with your goal of a simple easy to use interface. And since they own the website their goal trumps yours.

  • by hey! ( 33014 ) on Sunday August 04, 2019 @10:10AM (#59037736) Homepage Journal

    You spend more money in a supermarket where you have to hunt for what you want. The more time you spend in the supermarket, the more impulse buys you'll make.

    In the Orwellian language of Internet marketing having your time wasted is called "engagement". If how long you spend on a site is the metric that increases the ad revenue of that site, there's no economic incentive to make things easy and convenient for you, is there?

    This is the diabolical bargain we all made when we decided we never wanted to pay for content. If we don't pay for content then we aren't the customer, so we shouldn't expect systems to be designed to meet our needs efficiently. We should expect them to be designed shape our behavior in ways desirable to the people who are actually paying. The problem of time-wasting interfaces is ubiquitous, from the design of websites to the implementation of search functions on smart TVs or streaming services. They're uniformly flashy but inefficient, because they are supposed to draw our attention and then waste our time.

    Bad design from a usability standpoint isn't a bug, it's a feature.

  • /. has already discussed that [slashdot.org] and amassed close to five hundred comments. Too bad nothing has changed since.
  • Subject says it all. Why doesn't my library have a single option I can check in the search filter to search for all ebooks? I can filter by epubs or kindle but not both. Answer, because whoever is in charge is an arrogant prick. It looks good to them, and the people telling them it's not good enough are techies to whom they believe they are superior, because if they weren't they wouldn't be in charge. But we don't live in meritocracies.

    • by jythie ( 914043 )
      The flip side.. we do live in a meritocracy, but techies are not the superior life form many of them seem to think they are and thus able to unilaterally best every other profession in their own domains.
      • Tech decisions should be made by techies. Not all decisions, because techies don't understand everything, but tech ones, because they do understand those.

        • by jythie ( 914043 )
          I completely agree. The problem is, UI implementation is a technical issue, while UI design is not.
    • by AHuxley ( 892839 )
      Think back to who did the GUI projects at an Apple, Xerox PARC, Microsoft, BeOS..
      They had to work very hard to make every part of the hardware and software work well to get GUI perfection.
      Now RAM, ROM, CPU, GPU just "work".
  • Those sound great, easy, etc . But as a developer some of those "easy" features are not so easy to implement. Sounds like simple, but there's usually a lot of data processing going on to make stuff just work right. Articles just don't fall into place by category/subcategory, you have to not only implement the categories you have to as you create each article determine which categories apply. And for old articles you will have to have someone go through each one to categorize (or in the case of new categ

  • I don't think he appreciates how many YouTube videos there are. There are, quite literally, billions. Any "master" list, alphabetized or not, would be utterly unusable. Browsing by category would require the videos to be sorted by category--which would either be an unsupportable expense if YouTube did it themselves or would have the uploaders categorize their own videos. The latter would be a really bad idea. And the categories would still be unusably huge lists.

  • You're asking for someone else to put in more work, that you won't pay for. The newsflash (for you) is that no one's working for pride.

    If you want to see really great stuff, that makes sense, and that is impressive in any way, then you get to look for the starving artists. You get to look for the poor inventors. You get to look for the 12-year old trying to make a name for himself.

    I've been each of those three. I made very impressive stuff in multiple industries -- including web interfaces.

    Then I wanted

  • Next question.

  • The answer probably lies in a combination of factors, but one that leaps to mind is that the people who make the decisions and approve the paychecks are not the people likely to think of improvements like those you describe, let alone see much value in them. Managers are often focused on whatever deliverables they have been asked for, and developers are often kept on a short leash.

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