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Ask Slashdot: Should Libraries Eliminate Fines for Overdue Books? (thehill.com) 163

Posted by EditorDavid from the many-happy-returns dept.
Fines for overdue library books were eliminated more than three years ago in Chicago, Seattle, and San Francisco — as well as at the Los Angeles Public Library system (which serves 18 million people). The Hill reported that just in the U.S., more than 200 cities and municipalities had eliminated the fines by the end of 2019: Fines account for less than 1 percent of Chicago Public Library's revenue stream, and there is also a collection cost in terms of staff time, keeping cash on hand, banking and accounting. The San Diego library system did a detailed study and found the costs were higher than the fines collected, says Molloy.
And this week the King County Library System in Washington state — serving one million patrons in 50 libraries — joined the trend, announcing that it would end all late fines for overdue books.

A local newspaper summarized the results of a six-month review by library staff presented to the Board of Trustees: - In recent years, fines made up less than 1% of KCLS' operating budget.
- Late fine revenue continues to decrease over time. This trend correlates with patrons' interest in more digital and fewer physical items. Digital titles return automatically and do not accrue late fines.
- Collecting fines from patrons also has costs. Associated expenses include staff time, payment processing fees, printing notices and more.
- A majority of peer libraries have eliminated late fines.
Now Slashdot reader robotvoice writes: Library fines were assessed since early last century as an incentive for patrons to return materials and "be responsible." However, many studies have found that fines disproportionately affect the poor and disadvantaged in our society...

I have collected several anecdotes of dedicated library patrons who were locked out of borrowing because of excessive and punitive fines... I get daily use and enjoyment from library books and materials. While I personally have been scrupulous about paying fines — until they were eliminated — I support the idea that libraries are there to help those with the least access.

What do you think?
Share your own thoughts in the comments. Should libraries eliminate fines for overdue books?
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Ask Slashdot: Should Libraries Eliminate Fines for Overdue Books? More

Ask Slashdot: Should Libraries Eliminate Fines for Overdue Books?

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  • Very precise data...in the wrong place (Score:5, Insightful)

    by RightwingNutjob ( 1302813 ) on Sunday May 07, 2023 @02:50PM (#63504453)

    The question isn't whether direct revenues from fines are significant. The question is whether eliminating fines causes costs from restocking sto...er...permanently borrowed books to exceed the costs of enforcing fines.

    I don't know what the answer is, and I suspect it may vary by time and place. Kinda how there's guards checking receipts at Home Depot in some parts of town and not others.

    • According to the article, getting rid of fines does not affect "permanently borrowed books." People return books at the same rate either way.
    • IMO teaching acceptable behavior is more important than cost. Do like redbox and make them swipe for it with a debit card. No charge for 14 days and for renewals on time. 30days past due with no communication means you just bought the library a new copy. Put a hold for the replacement cost when past due so next time they grt paid, so does the library.

    • It's been studied (Score:5, Insightful)

      by rsilvergun ( 571051 ) on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:58PM (#63504639)
      And no it doesn't increase the cost of restocking books. Library fines are largely useless and like most things they disproportionately impact the very poor.

      If a parent has to choose between feeding their kid that day and paying their library book fines it's pretty obvious which one they're going to pick. And even with minimal fines that's a decision a lot of people who make heavy use of libraries have to make. The same goes for seniors.

      It's another one of those things like criminalizing drugs. If you just hear somebody say you should do it sounds good but if you look into it as quickly comes out that it's a terrible idea.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by sarren1901 ( 5415506 )

        Talk about conflating two very different issues.

        Not returning the book deprives the entire community of using the book. That's lame. Just return the book already.

        Criminalizing of drugs on the other hand doesn't really change the drug users behavior. They are going to do it anyway. But people doing drugs doesn't impact me unless they start committing crimes. Not all drug users are criminals unless we choose to make them criminals because they got high. Drug use should be treated like a medical condition.

        This

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by eepok ( 545733 )

        These are hyperbolic comparisons using extreme edge cases as the basis of arguing general policy.

        1. Library fines are not "largely useless". They work act successfully as a deterrent against returning a book late for MANY people. The prompt return of books is necessary for libraries because other people would like to use the limited resource that is a physical book.

        2. Yes, if you remove the deterrent to holding books past the due date, you're also removing the deterrent to returning the loaned item at all.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by genixia ( 220387 )

        I wonder if that has always been true though. The demographics of library users has changed in the past century. More specifically, the demographics of those library users that need to use the library has changed.

        I suspect that late fees used to affect a broader section of society and more than cover their costs, allowing them to be used to extend the book collection. As the affordability of books increased, the middle class reduced their usage of libraries. Changing workforce demographics over time wou

  • I knew an old guy who did not have to pay fines because it was the library policy not to fine the over-60s. If he liked a book he simply kept it.

    FTFA :

    fines are largely pointless and often cost more to pursue than the fine is worth

    Surely it is more relevant to compare the cost to pursue with the cost of the book.

    • Eventually he will stop stealing them, because he won't be able to take out any more.

    • Because, and I know this seems strange, not everyone is a complete total psychopath. In fact the majority of people aren't total psychopaths.

      If you're posting on slashdot you're probably online to an unhealthy degree. Online discourse is absolutely horrific and filled with bots and trolls and literal paid actors trying to keep us fighting among ourselves. There's a little bit of that in the real world but not nearly as much. That means people tend to be better in the real world.

      • LOL what? Everyone is online all the time. You included. You post here as much as the rest of us. Why don't you lead by example, and take more days off of Slashdot. Show us how to be healthier!

      • Unless you've found a way to peer into people's heads nondestructively, you don't know that most people aren't sociopaths. For all you know, everyone's crazy and evil, but most people are good at containing these things between their ears and not letting it spill out. A few haven't developed that skill.

        • I know they're not because it's been studied. Eliminating library fines does not result in the apocalypse you're talking about.

          What I don't understand is why so many people here on what's supposed to be a science focused web forum have given up on believing and evidence and scientific studies and instead stubbornly insist the world works the way they personally want it to work...

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by DarkOx ( 621550 )

            Science takes time. Progressives don't do science, they use science as a cover for their bullshit. They run a handful (often shoddy) experiments and as soon as they get a result that confirms their bias they run off and demand everyone agree with them or be labeled "anti-science", bigoted, backwards, etc.

            We have spent generations establishing norms for behavior around library use, and one of the ways we did that was by imposing consequences like fines for misuse / abuse.

            You pull the consequences for a hand

  • As long as they come up with a different system to encourage people to return any physical items checked out. The fines were small, and chances are if you racked up something huge and unpayable, well, you kind of deserve it. Granted, I believe the fine should be capped at the cost of replacing the item(s).

  • Be a Good Neighbor (Score:3, Insightful)

    by walkerp1 ( 523460 ) on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:01PM (#63504485)

    Don't be a putz. Return your library materials when or before they're due.

    Overdue fines serve to help people learn and practice personal responsibility as well as to prompt recognition of a place in society in a micro sense. All this talk of their viability of a revenue stream is missing the point by a fair bit. Libraries exist primarily through community subsidies and other forms of benevolent patronage. Overdue fines are no more a primary source of revenue than speeding tickets (should be) are for municipalities.

    Fines affect poor people disproportionately? I'd say that the poor frequently need to learn the kinds of lessons that overdue fines are meant to convey. Things like responsibility, dependability, and social contract are concepts that poor people can leverage to get themselves out of poverty. It's a good thing. And if they fail, it isn't like they can't just read inside the library after all.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by wrsi ( 10382619 )
      The "moral scold" third paragraph in your post is one of those moments that could maybe provoke some self-reflection.

      Fines affect poor people disproportionately? I'd say that the poor frequently need to learn the kinds of lessons that overdue fines are meant to convey. Things like responsibility, dependability, and social contract are concepts that poor people can leverage to get themselves out of poverty.

      The poor are not in poverty due to moral failings. They do not disproportionately suffer from a lack of can-do spirit, or however it is you'd like to think of all that. Talk to a migrant crop laborer about their work ethic. Discuss their health plan with them, please, and compare the number of personal days you took last year. ("Things like responsibility, dependability, and social contract"

  • Just skip libraries and (Score:4, Funny)

    by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ) on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:02PM (#63504487)

    Get a dictionary. All the other books are in there. :-)

    • But that gets expensive since, in addition to the dictionary, you also need to buy a whole lot of typewriters and round up a whole lot of monkeys!

  • The assumption is that the amount of books "borrowed forever" wont change. Not having fines will result in more books being "eternally borrowed".

    • Re:No, keep the fines (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Fnord666 ( 889225 ) on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:17PM (#63504521) Journal

      Except that according to the fine article:

      Everyone assumes fines are an incentive to return borrowed materials, but the data show no difference in return rates between libraries that charge fines and those that don't, says DePriest, who wrote a seminal white paper on the topic in 2016.

      • Which tells me they needed a bigger stick, not a fucking carrot. Garnish wages for cost of replacement. Make sure HR at work knows they have to garnish the wages. Word gets around and suddenly your the kid called to the principals office. Thats way more effective than $1 in late fees.

        • That's how to get people to simply borrow less, not make them return. I'm not going to borrow a book from a library that threatens to garnish my wages and publicly shame me if I'm late on return. That's not worth the risk, because there are times that I forget to return a book or am late finishing it.

          A library provides a public service that relies on a positive relationship with its community. Make that confrontational and it loses its appeal quickly. So the library needs to find a means to make it inconven

          • If you keep a book 30 days past the due date and dont even bother renew it you deserve public shaming and a swift kick in the groin. Quit justifying theft by rolling it into the cost. That just forces people like me to pay for shitbags like you. If you cant return a book within 30days of its past due status you should not be borrowing in the first place. Every other aspect of timesharing of items works the same way. Stop being a fuckwad.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by JoeRobe ( 207552 )

              By all means go start a library that warns its patrons that they will get a public shaming and kick in the groin if they're late-returning fuckwads.

              Meanwhile people who actually do run libraries will keep it civil because their goal is to be a positive force in their community, not aggressive and punitive.

      • Re:No, keep the fines (Score:4, Informative)

        by dalosla ( 2568583 ) on Sunday May 07, 2023 @04:32PM (#63504725)
        Chicago got a lot of overdue material back after they eliminated fines. I bet that someone who plans on stealing a book or books isn't planning on paying any fines, anyway. Fines won't stop them; that takes other means, such as preventing fake library accounts to get around limits on the number of items you can have checked out at once. The fines affect only those who were actually planning to return the material, so it is not surprising that over the long run, fines don't affect the return rate. As a practical matter, people tend to avoid unpleasant or embarrassing situations. If someone misplaced a book and fines have been accumulating for months, he or she might avoid going the the library to avoid being castigated for the increasing fine. That reduces library patronage without a meaningful improvement in return rate.
        • Our library will assess trivial fines but if you don't return the item by a certain date, you are charged replacement cost for it and your borrowing privileges are suspended indefinitely. You have a couple of months to return or purchase your item before they send it to a collection agency.

          Fake accounts aren't a problem since you have to show an ID to get a card and minors have to be signed by a responsible adult.

          One of my kids lost a music CD at a "friend's house" and I didn't know it until I got a
        • Perhaps the library can simply start requiring credit card details as a requirement to have a library card. If you don't return the book after 30 days, your card is automatically debited with the fine. If you don't return after 60 days, there's another fine plus the cost of the replacement book.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by eepok ( 545733 )

        I'm going through the white paper right now and it seems extremely cherry-picked with anecdotes and idealism.

        "This place over here removed fees." -- Go look at them. They're a trustee-backed library, not a city library. They have a protected fund source not as risk of budget cuts in hard times.

        "But the poor library over here..." -- Libraries in low-income neighborhoods *should* receive special consideration like the CAPPING of fees to nominal and symbolic amount to show the consequences of being late. Libra

  • Is is that thing that looks like a boring giant tweet with no hashtags?

  • My Library Experience (Score:5, Informative)

    by buzz_mccool ( 549976 ) on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:14PM (#63504511)
    My local library eliminated overdue fines. I was skeptical this was going to turn out well, but I have not experienced any reduction in the availability of library materials. Perhaps with video streaming reducing the demand for DVDs, and eBooks becoming more widely embraced by the public (but not by me), it all worked out.
    • Ebooks have their own automatic return system much like Video on demand rentals. Just wish it was more prolific.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by eepok ( 545733 )

      Streaming and e-Book loans completely remove the risk of loaning out items. It has definitely reduced increased the average "return" rate and has definitely brought in more "visitors".

  • Just be civilized (Score:5, Informative)

    by sonlas ( 10282912 ) on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:19PM (#63504523)

    In other news, and in civilized countries, my town opened a library 1 year ago, where people check-out their books themselves, and there are no fines if they are late. Actually, if someone really want to steal a book, the easiest way is to just not check it out... Nobody would notice.

    After last full inventory (1 month ago), 3 books were found missing. 2 from people who just forgot they had them. 1 from someone who apparently really stole it.

    We live in society, start behaving like it.

  • Great motivation to sit down and finish that book. Just extend the standard checkout to a full month.

  • Netflix allowed you to keep DVDs and get new ones when your returned the old ones, but they had a monthly subscription fee. Keep the 'late fees' but account for them and request them as a voluntary donation not a punitive fee. Those who can not pay, don't pay. Those who can pay should pay more as a donation and apology. But if you have too many books out or late returns then you can't borrow any new items.

    If someone is going to borrow a book and NOT return it then a late fee (or lack of one) is not going to

  • Hold people responsible (Score:3)

    by H_Fisher ( 808597 ) <h_v_fisher AT yahoo DOT com> on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:28PM (#63504541)
    On three occasions I can remember, I've purchased used books online only to find they were stolen from local libraries - as in, checked out and never returned, then sold online. In one case, I was able to return the book, but that left me out the money I'd paid (less than $20, so not a big deal in the long run, but still.) The other two libraries had already paid to replace the book, which effectively means that taxpayers are spending money to give book thieves a side hustle. The marketplaces (Amazon and eBay) show little interest in policing themselves. And, if library fines are abolished, there's little to nothing holding book thieves accountable for their actions.

    • The marketplaces (Amazon and eBay) show little interest in policing themselves.

      Did you report the sales of stolen goods to anyone but the library you returned the one book to? The marketplaces are fundamentally unable to police this kind of behavior without your assistance.

  • How about one book at a time (Score:4, Interesting)

    by schwit1 ( 797399 ) on Sunday May 07, 2023 @03:46PM (#63504593)

    You want to check out a book? First return the last one.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Tom ( 822 )

      Make it five or ten.

      When I was a kid, I'd take my bike to the library every other week or so, picked up a bunch of books and switched them out for new ones the next time.

      The library was too far away to ride there for one book. And I'd easily read 5 in a fortnight.

    • This is essentially how the no fines system works. You still have due dates, but when you check out a book and it becomes past-due, your library privileges are revoked until you either pay for a replacement or return the book. If you return the book or a replacement is paid for, and you can borrow again.

  • Falling Down (Score:3)

    by kackle ( 910159 ) on Sunday May 07, 2023 @05:29PM (#63504859)
    Next you're going to tell me that people are trying to discharge voluntary student loans. Or make it harder to borrow money for those who have good credit.

    It's stuff like this that make the people who are obeying the rules feel cheated and resentful. That makes them want to move away, or not have kids, or get depressed, or worse. Death by 1000 cuts, it seems... Like a company that treats employees poorly, only the crummy people will remain. Please, I'm begging you, put down the knife already.
  • The Sonoma County Library (California, about a hour north of San Francisco) dropped fines on July 1, 2019. About 30% of patrons had outstanding fines ( 80,000). Fines produced about $300,000 per year, about one percent of the budget.

    Front line staff hated it, because they had to be the 'bad' guy to patrons. How do you tell a crying kid that they cannot borrow their pile of books? There were patrons locked out. Staff had to handle money, make change, deal with rejected credit cards, yelling patrons, real

  • Headlines read: libraries reinstate overdue fines. They still have to send out notices to let people know that they have their books might as well put a price on it.

  • They did this in Bangor, Maine (USA). A lot of people stopped returning books, especially teens, so the teens section was pretty heavily gutted. They used to be really proud of the teens / YA section, up until a large portion of the books never came back.

  • All that means is that someone with less money pays a higher percentage of their money. Tuff. Return the fucking book and it won't.

    I have less money than Bernie so I should pay proportionately less for my mansion.

  • If you defund the libraries [slashdot.org], then you don't have any problems with fines, or books either.

  • We digitise all the books and share them with anyone that is brave enough to read. The amount of adults that read regularly is alarmingly low (to my mind) - so few read a book a month. A mere 12 a year. We should do anything we can to encourage effortless flow of knowledge to anyone that would have it.

  • I have been heavy user of our library since they started loaning ebooks. I put a hold on what I want, read the books conveniently on my phone when they come available, and when they are due, the app I use (Libby) automatically returns the book. Yes, some books I haven't finished yet but then I put another hold in and finish when they come back. And the auto return benefits me b/c nobody can disappear a book from the library for months (or forever). The biggest plus is not having to handled some dirty, d

  • Shouldn't we be happy that a large number of people WANT to steal books?

  • Granted, a small branch campus. I've been there for about five years, and we've never charged late fees. People are quite paranoid about it, we sometimes receive calls from people who are only a day late. Lose or damage the book: then you have to replace it, plus a processing fee (it takes more work than you'd think to get a book ready for the shelves), or a hold is put on your account and you won't graduate!

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