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Education

Ask Slashdot: Computer Charities for the Children? 291

Posted by Cliff from the seeking-the-facts dept.
Paranoid Diatribe wrote in with this worthwhile submission: "This past weekend, I wired my 4-year-old daughter's room with an old 486 running Win95 with a connection to my little LAN. Anyway, after seeing my daughter's face light up when she realized she could play in her own room, I got to thinking: What does it take to set computers, networks, internet, etc. for a "good cause"? Now I don't necessarlity mean getting the parts, and the physical side of things. That's relatively easy (though I wouldn't know how to solicit for hardware/software donations). I want to know the logistics of starting a non-profit organization where I can use my talents to benefit the children in my area. There's the legal aspect. The money issues. Tax issues. And (as much as it sickens me), the liability issues. I live in Salt Lake City, UT and the climate around here is (to put it mildly) pretty conservative. The last thing I need would be to wire a local community center to the 'net to have some over-zealous local politician sue me because some poor kid stumbled onto an objectionable site while online. Maybe my fears are not justified... but I'd rather play it safe. Anyway, I'm so completely ignorant about this sort of thing, that I really don't know what questions to ask. Do any of you donate your talents and time for charity? Is it worth it? Is there a "right" way to go about this?" I think this is a worthwhile idea, but what is one to do about the already prevailent attitude in legislation that our children need to be protected from the Internet?
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Ask Slashdot: Computer Charities for the Children? More

Ask Slashdot: Computer Charities for the Children?

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  • Easily influenced (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Young children are easily influenced. We need to protect them from Windows95.
  • Jason Burke has started a Linux Mentors [linuxmentors.org] program to teach kids the wonders of Linux and all that. He wrote up a piece that's on Linux.com [linux.com] in the LUGs section. The important thing is to just keep trying. Talk to businesses and stuff, somewhere there's people eager to get rid of some 486s or low Pentiums that have collected dust in their storeroom.
  • I think you took my message too seriously.

    First of all, I was just quoting someone else who wrote something short, concise and forceful enough to be quotable.

    Second, never did I say that everyone should know how their computers work.

    The sentiment I think the quote I gave transmits, when placed in its proper context (read the message I replied to for that) is what I know many people who owned as kids during the 80s share-- that nowadays kids have a much smaller chance of learning the workings of the machine, than some of the computers in the 80s provided (think computers like the C64/C128, Apple ][, Tandy Color Computer, and so on).

    ---

  • I remember that some slashdot poster once put this point across very forcefully and briefly. I'll paraphrase it:
    "A generation of kids is growing up that isn't learning how their computers work. Isn't that scary?"

    ---

  • Geeks Into the Streets [andovernews.com] is a Baltimore area ad-hoc group that works to bring 'net access to poor children. Jeff Covey, who started the whole thing, maintains Andover's Linux.DaveCentral [davecentral.com] site. Our good friend Joe "the mad Russian" Valadorsky of Amnet Computer [amnet-comp.com] contributed a LOT of equipment and expertise, and a whole LOT of others have chipped in with parts, labor, advice, and encouragement.

    All of this was an outgrowth of the UMBC LUG [umbc.edu] that meets at University of Maryland Baltimore County.

    Any LUG could do this. This just happens to be an excellent, very helpful and public-minded bunch. If you want to learn more about how your LUG could do something similar, please contact either me or Jeff. We're both *more than happy* to help other people get involved in community "geek outreach projects" by starting their own ad-hoc groups.








  • Right on, man!
    Keep on making a difference. Wishing you luck on this.
  • Just do it in a poor neighborhood where the parents don't have money for a lawyer... Brilliant!
  • Where are educational software that Run on *nix? (Libre or commercial would do). Would come in handy to have a reference while advocating low-price *nix computers.

  • There is a charity, exactly as you describe, operating in Cleveland near Case Western Reserve University. Unfortunately, I do not recall the name at the moment, but I highly suggest you investigate there. They take old computers (IBMs and such, pre 486 mostly) and repair them. These computers then are given to schools (I think).
  • Although a great idea, how many parents do you think would actually agree to something like that?
    For as long as I can remember, parents have always had to sign little waivers whenever the school has a field trip. And, for as long as I can remember, almost always 100% of the parents were willing to sign it. I don't see what the difference would be for them waiving the right to sue in exchange for a free computer.

    In other words, I think the waiver is a great idea. :)

  • I just want to say I agree, so you don't feel alone in this. There are plenty of people that think children should be protected, but in this circle it's not exactly the cool thing to say.

    Still, though, if you're talking about publicly available computers, vs. those that the parents have control of in their homes, who is going to decide whether to install the protective software?

    Oh, here's another thought I've been toying with. Several parents I know take the opinion that kid should be kept away from computers for the most part until they are older. When they are older, they can catch up; it's not like they will be permanently behind the times. I got a grasp of the Internet pretty quickly after being exposed to it for the first time a very few years ago.
  • Well, experiance is a good point.

    But thier experiance with systems on systems with less processing power also goes to my overall point. Your arguing the details are wrong, I'll give you that and say your right.

    But, would it not then be better to start programming on something of lesser power first so you more clearly see the diffrences? Or, maybe learning about logic flow before even starting to code?

    Programming and computing aside, the issue in question is, will giving children more tools help them learn? OR, will giving children more tools just make the people responsable for educating the children lazier?

    My point in general is that a 4 year old at a computer isn't a good thing in itself. With good guidance, they can learn a lot. With poor guidance, they will just have another "crutch" to keep them from learning some skills they should know on thier own.

    So, remove the tool, and re-analyze the situation. Find how to make things work better in general, THEN, add aproprate tools. Giving homeless people a nailgun and a truckload of lumber will not provide them homes, and a nailgun is dangerous in untrained hands.... Despite the fact it is a very usefull tool.

    Give me a fish, I will eat today. Teach me to fish, I will eat long after you leave.

  • This sounds like a job for
    [troubleshooters.com]
    http://www.troubleshooters.com
    Troubleshooting follows a general
    problem solving process, which makes any
    intractible problem look like debugging
    a program. There is always a place to
    start. You never have to feel overwhelmed.
    And basically you know that there are a
    million other troubleshooters out there who
    are on your side all the way.

    If you are looking for more specific
    references on wiring computers for kids and
    schools,
    there is a new initiative directed at
    getting better software into schools
    called.
    [openclassroom.com]
    http://www.openclassroom.com


    This is really a worthwhile ambition.
    Good luck! (and remember, the computer
    is your friend...)
  • Personally, I would have the parents sign a waiver in to let the kids use the computers, saying that I'm not responsible for what their kids get into... just my $0.02
  • Yes, children are very shapeable. You can raise a child to be, or do, almost everything you can think of. For most things however (such as the ethics in meat'farming' or the correctness of the major religion) this requires that most everyone around the child agrees with this. Or (as with the correctness of a minor religion) that the child is cut off from all sources of alternative information and opinions.

    But in both cases, if the child gets confronted with conflicting information THEY CAN NOT AVOID TO START THINKING FOR THEMSELVES AND MAKE THEIR OWN OPINIONS! If they get enough different sources they will most likley end up with something nice and useful. (Same thing goes for adults by the way, but less so since they have already got their strong prejudices from childhood)

    The Internet is hardly preaching one thing as the Truth but is afaik the most diversive source of information in the world. So not only is it 'not bad' but also good because it can PREVENT CHILDREN FROM INHERETING OLD PREJUDICES OF THIER PARENTS AND THEIR LOCAL SOCIETY. And that is, if I may guess, why some people wants to 'protect' children from the Internet.
  • No, give them Mormonism. Give them Islam. Give them Hinduism. Give them all of them. After that, there is probably no need to give them Atheism, it will come all by it self...
  • What's kind of sad is that that's the same argument that's made AGAINST tv by most conservatives. And it holds true to a certain extent. If a child is raised by le ol tube, the kid might exhibit a different value system than the parents.

    And in a way, they are right. TV might represent a differernt value system than the parents but it's still just ONE value system. So too much TV and too little else isn't good.

    Should we remove parents from parenting?

    Parents are (mostly) good for a child. Just don't let them (or anything else) get too much influence over them.
  • http://www.teraflop.org/ [teraflop.org]

    608-7782-3006
    james@dqc.org
    C/O Superior Systems
    611 Main St.
    LaCrosse, WI 54601

  • People who learned programing with pencil and paper, and then after reviewing thier programs several times before submitting them to have punch cards made fully understand the value of writing efficent programs. People who use editors from the beginning and are just happy if things compile without errors are more likely to write bloat. I know a few people who worked with punchcards, and wrote programs by hand on paper first, and, as a "generalization" they write far less lines of code to do the exact same thing to this day, even when they are writing thousands and thousands of lines of code. In addition to being forced to do all the "extra" work was a step of "review" of thier code, because it helped to talk to others, look it over, and put a lot of thought into it BEFORE they tried to compile it. Even though they don't do that today, they benifited greatly from the experiance.

    I think there is something else going on there. The folks who learned to program on punchcards (or even in batch mode with a "real" editor) by and large have a few diffrences from people who learned to program directly in an editor:

    • They have been programming longer, like since the late 70s
    • They stated working on very small machines, like smaller (in terms of memory and CPU speed) then a Palm Pilot, and frequently shared at that!
    • They have probbably solved a similiar problem before (20+ years of experiance will do that)
    • They have way way more debugging experiance

    So do they write tighter code because they scetched it out in pencil n' paper first, or because they learned on a machine with a 5Mhz clock? Does it take them less time to debug because they flowcharted, or because they have had two decades experiance in hunting bugs?

    Personally I'm in the intermediate range. I started programming at the head end of the '80s. I never did punchcards, and avoided batch untill collage (in '89 or so). I don't pencil schetch out code (except in Pascal class over 15 years ago). I do whiteboard out my data structures. I have imense respect for people more skilled at it then I, and I beleve they tend to be older then I am. I think I'm at least as good as my Dad was when he tought me, but he has gotten 18 years better at it, still leaving me a lot of room to catch up. Some folks who are younger them me just plain have more natural talent at it, and are also better then me.

    However the thing I won't claim is that pencil programming will make you better, or that whiteboarding data structures will. Those help some people, and not others. If you havn't tryed it, give it a shot, maybe it will work for you. also try "writing one to throw away" (preferably in a language simmilar to, but not the same as the one you need to use of the actual implmentaiton, to avoid the chance of actually using the throw away). Find something that works good fir you, and every few years try something else for a project or two (havn't used hungarian notation? give it a shot -- it didn't help me, but maybe it'll give you an edge).

  • 2+2=5 was one of the precepts used in the interrogation (reeducation, brainwashing, whatever you'd rather call it) of Winston in 1984. Not the main criteria, but one of them.

    "Don't do it to me, do it to Julia!"

    There are a few high school English classes that cover 1984. There are a million or so more that don't. Pity, because it's a more useful text for your average public school student than much of what gets covered there.

  • nonono (Score:1)

    by Mawbid ( 3993 )
    distributed.net etc. MAY be a good idea if the computer is already in use, but running them solely to participate in such a venture is silly. Remember the amount of fossil fuel wasted on powering the redundant Seti@Home computations? Well, it wasn't really wasted because the machines would have been powered on anyway, but what you're talking about is a true waste.
    --
  • You're worried about liability? Then say to all parents who would consider this scheme: "I reccomend that you supervise your child's internet usage."
    This has two positive effects - firstly it allows the parents to make sure their kids don't look up anything they don't want them to (and that doesn't mean Slashdot surely?) and secondly it can help young children make sense of what they see. The Internet is an adult medium in many ways, and all too often information is put there for people who browse through web sites and pick up the salient information points. Kids can't do this! They need time to learn and to take things in so having parents there to explain what is happenening is always good.
    If the parents are responsible then they won't stop their children from visiting sites that are informative and educational, and they will use the Internet as the tool it can be.
    it also encourages them to see the positive sids of it too! if the parents sit with their kids and go through sites together they end up seeing lots of stuff that may wel convince them that it isn't fll of porn and bomb-making instructions like some poor fools still believe.
    Supervision - it takes away the responsibilty from you and givews power to them.
  • Muhahahaha...children using computers.

    Don't you see the opportunity? Don't you see the superb opportunity to warp and twist their fragile little minds to follow our evil cult of communist (ack!) free software loving (argh!) establishment-shunning (ahhh!) philosophy of world domination through strategic placement of penguins all over the globe!!!!

    MUHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA....oh sorry.

    We could get them all on the net by age 4!!! That way, they could be exposed to all the evil nastiness that flows through the veins of all linux users like a black vomitous fluid, intoxicating them...inebriating them...rendering them unable to use proprietary software!!!!

    Don't you understand??? We ARE the people our parents warned us about!!!!

  • The people at Future Focus (http://www.futurefocus.org/) should be able to answer many questions...
  • Are you speaking for the descendants of the original white settlers or the people who were there before them?(speaking of tribes)

  • If you REALLY want to help, you should try training some of the faculty to take advantage of the hardware. One of the best examples of why this is needed is my high school. It had several hundred PCs (one per classroom, plus a few labs) -- many of which were fairly up to date (one of the labs had PIIs, and they might have been upgraded since I graduated in '98).

    For the most part, they were just used as overglorified word processors.

    There were two exceptions to this: the joke we called our CS department, and one lone math classroom. I won't even start on the CS department. And out of the two years I was in that math classroom, we only used the computers about ten times. Even with the hideous software on those things, we still had the potential to use the computers for ALL the lessons both years (this leads to a MUCH deeper understanding of the topic since you don't get the student caught up in all the grunt work -- I was fortuante enough to take a section of diffeq using Mathematica last semester at UIUC, and I felt like I actually understood the concepts instead of just plugging numbers into equations and solving).

    Outside of that, I didn't get a single opportunity to use the classroom PCs. Off the top of my head, I can think of several areas that they would have been beneficial: research for my history and government classes (we even had decent bandwidth, but it was completely unused!), aid visualization of bonds in chemistry, ability to tweak parameters to see what hapens to economic graphs, find other works by the same author in my literature class, scan/sequence sheet music in orchestra to get a feel of what it's supposed to sound like, etc., etc., etc.

    Why wasn't I offered those opportunities? The teachers and administration had no idea that half of that could be done, and they had no idea how to actually do any of it.

    So I guess the biggest thing to keep in consideration is that the hardware's useless somebody trains the faculty how to use it.
  • Say what you like, but the evidence is starting to come in that children who are flooded with technology - computers, "educational" TV programs, videos, teaching toys, whatever - when done in place of plain old face to face interactions with a parent or teacher, do not learn better than their "technologically deprived" counterparts. This is especially true at younger ages, where most "educational" software is pointing and clicking video games. Even when they are used as a reward (e.g., letting kids play games when they finish their other work) can be unhealthy, since it encourages individual play rather than cooperative (like sitting on the floor together and building with blocks).

    That being said, I still think computers have a place in the classroom (I've installed a number of them myself), as long as they are not seen as a replacement for human interactions with a teacher (or parent). In older classrooms, where kids can use them in problem solving exercises, review and practice on other traditional subjects, or as a reference (like a Very Big Encyclopedia or instant reference library), they can become a valuable tool. In fact, when you get up into the higher elementary and middleschool grades, I think it is critical that kids learn how to use the Internet.

    Suffice it to say, our American tradition of trying to solve educational problems by throwing more money and technology at it is once again comming up short when the facts come in. There is nothing that can take the place of the older generation teaching the younger.

  • Leave it up to the school!

    Really, you and I are the technology experts, not the educational ones. We should list the available technologies (filtering, internet connections, hardware, networks, etc.) and the pros and cons or each (including details like cost, or the flaws of filtering software), and then let the administration figure out its policy. We have to be honest though, and not fudge the facts with our own prejudices. Then, they are the one's responsible for getting parental permission, and dealing with problems when they come up. Believe me, they've been dealing with these issues for years!! (Whoever said the Internet was the first controversy to hit our school systems???)

    Tell them what can and cannot be done. Tell them your recommendation. Let them make policy. If you can live with their policy, then do your work.

  • It was mentioned in the original "Ask Slashdot" question how to start a non-profit. I am not a lawyer, however I have recently incorporated my own non-profit in the state of Nevada. It is relatively easy and relatively inexpensive(I think I paid the Secretary of State $45 for everything). Now this does not get you 501(c)(3) non-profit status, but it is the first step. You can check out the State of Nevada's Secretary of State page at: this URL. [state.nv.us]
    Stuart Eichert
    U. of PENN student/FreeBSD hacker
  • Some time ago, a couple of years ago I think, we decided that the inordinate amount of 486s we had lying around, along with all the old bits and pieces that still worked, should be donated to charity. So I called up a bunch of places, searched the Web, etc. Once I got in touch with someone, it went like this:
    Me: Hi, I have a friggin metric ton of computer gear I want to donate to your school.
    Them: Great! We're looking for Pentiums, minimal, and stuff that can run Windows 95 or this NT thing I heard about.
    Me: Uh...
    Them: No Pentiums, no dice.

    I tried for almost 4 months to donate stuff. No one wanted any of it. They only wanted cutting edge hardware. I even got hung up on once for trying to say that these machines were still usable for tasks other than surfing the web (thinking to myself, Linux, of course).

    I even talked to inner-city types, people who are trying to bring inner-city kids more up-to-speed on technology. Right now, these places are still looking for donations, and still won't accept anything less than PII's or G3 Macs. I tried to donate my time - no, too much paperwork, and I can't be trusted around the kids since I am just some guy and not, you know, accreditted. And we all know that these computer guys are pervs.

    I was totally dejected. Next week we will be chucking that stuff; we've got the truck and everything ready to go. Too bad, there was some good Linux hardware in there that they could have used. Anyone want it?
  • Although the waiver will give you a defense, it won't prevent people from suing. As someone put it, "anyone can sue anybody for any reason." As dumb as it is, it's a fact of life.

    My mother works for a public school district in the south-east US. They have filtering enabled for this very reason. Yet, even then, the local media jumps on the slightest story of inappropriate content getting through (even if it is something like a banner advert.)
  • There are a precious few schools in the united states that actually know what they're doing.

    Off the top of my head would be Ingraham Highschool in Seattle WA, the "technology magnet" school in St. Paul MN (forget the name), most of the Cedar UT schools (shockingly, but they have a surprisingly adept IT staff), Glouchester VA Central Schools, and Spokane WA school district.

    But I can't stress enough, Ingraham is the diamond in the manure where Seattle schools are concerned, as is the technology magnet to the rest of St. Paul.

    Frankly, I'm surprised people trust their children with the people who run most public schools. I wouldn't, and don't intend to.

    In my experience, a very small number of the people employed by public schools are underpaid, hard working, thoughtful individuals who have real talent. The rest are making out like bandits with their $26k/yr for the effort and expertise they bring to the job.

  • and it's called TechCorps [techcorps.org]. From their web page:
    Vision
    All students will have access to the most technologically advanced education possible to ensure that they will have the skills needed to compete in the workforce of tomorrow.
    Mission
    The mission of TECH CORPS is three-fold:
    • to recruit, place, and support volunteers from the technology community who advise and assist schools in the introduction and integration of new technologies;
    • to bring additional technology resources to schools through local and national projects;
    • to build partnerships in support of educational technology among educators, businesses, and community members at the local, state, and national levels.
    Mode of Operation
    TECH CORPS is a national non-profit organization, funded through corporate contributions, and implemented through state chapters. A national staff oversees TECH CORPS' mission and agenda, assists with the formation and maintenance of effective state chapters, provides national media focus, and ensures quality at all levels. The broader organization is based on a bottom-up philosophy and draws on the expertise and enthusiasm of technology-literate members of the local community.

    I went to a workshop on this at a Cisco conference in Houston a couple of weeks ago. Basically, these people organize volunteers to go into schools and do wiring, network setup, consulting, what have you. Basically anything in the technology realm. They started because there are a lot of people like you - people who have skills and want to help out schools who most of the time just need some advice and a little bit of time. The hardest part is getting organized, which is where TechCorps comes in. They even have a state chapter in Utah [techcorps.org].

    My company is looking into working with their Nebraska chapter, so I might have more info about it in the future. Check out their web page to see if your state is involved and give them a call. I'm sure your local school would appreciate it!
  • You can also contact your local service organizations like the Rotary, 4H, etc. These organizations already have the infrastructure set up, they already have credibility, and they already know what to do. Focus on what YOU can do best (installing the computers) and let THEM focus on what they can do best (soliciting donations, contacting groups that need the help, and all the legal/tax mumbo jumbo).
  • I also have been thinking about this for a while. I myself have 4 foster kids. They are just getting started using Computers. Teaching them has given me food for lots of thought... What do they need to know, and how do I present it to them without all of the baggage that I had to go through to learn what I have? Their schools use of the computer is just too limited. I mean that not every kid really needs to know computers from the guts out, but they should know more than just how to use one. Here are a few things that I have been working through with my children... Some of this stuff will end up as short volunteer lectures at my local schools.

    Computer culture is something that is priceless. With the right "manners" a child will grow to use a computer for anything they want without fear. If they learn to share early, maybe they will help others the same way that I have. (It is also interesting that the kids that I went to school with that shared knowedge, and code and games! I still talk to and learn from.) This sort of thing is needed when kids start learning. They are learning all social aspects of everything else, why not the use of computers? My own children seem pretty receptive. Simple ethical issues can lead to lengthly productive discussions. The same sort of discussions that arise from such questions like: "I found some chalk at the school, is it ok to keep it?" Computer culture is learned by peer example at the higher education levels, but not really at the lower ones, at least not in the schools in my area.

    What is the internet? Their answers to this really blew me away. They said that it was just like TV only you get to pick what you see. People who knew the internet before the invention of the WWW are very different from those who joined in after the fact. All aspects of the internet should be introduced along with the appropriate culture. The sharing culture of the internet is slowly being eroded away. There are also many things surrounding fact vs opinion that are very confusing to young people. They really can't see the difference between a hack and a legit web site. Does a site contain factual information? Is a particular opinion popular? With who? What does that mean to me, and should I go along....

    Low level computer understanding. My kids ask me things like: Why does the computer have to start up? (after having been turned off..) Why can't I just type what I want and have it go find it? Where do things go when the computer is off? Why are some peoples computers different? Why does the computer crash when it is supposed to do exactly what it is told? These sort of things are easy to ignore at first, but if you ask young kids any of these, their answers will surprise you.

    Maybe this is all simple stuff, (to us it should be) but to the young it matters. More than our educational system is ready to prepare them for.

  • There's a nationally-sponsored event that's been going for about three years called NetDay [netday.org] in which you can volunteer to help wire your community schools either with a donation of time, supplies, or money. Check it out.

    --j
  • You couldn't tell a cult from a hole in the ground.
  • Well, I guess I should pipe up here, as I was involved in one of the original pilot projects that later became basis for the original learning link program. I helped implement one the first permament high school internet connections - one of the first fifteen in the world. (Remember gopher and WAIS?) Before that I created some the first computer labs in general curricula: Desktop publishing, CAD, PSL (Personal Science Labortory), and word processing (my first XEINX lab). We won't even go into what I did before that, but it seems that only yesterday I was working with the oregon trail, print shop, mockingbird speech synthsis program, and of course appleworks and BASIC.

    I could go on for hours on what we learned, how it worked, who we had to brown-nose with, etc. but there only two things I learned that I hold above the rest:

    These projects take TIME more than anything else. From installation, to training, to maitenance, to support. You cannot just throw a computer in a room and expect it to be used. Even today, the learning and usage curve is steep. And of course technology changes, so your job is never-ending. I was brought in to do what the administrators could not: teach people about computers.

    The second thing I only learned in retrospect. I was so blinded by the work that I missed it beforehand, has most others continue to miss it today. Computers are only TOOLS: they are only as good as what you use them for. Computers cannot teach you everything, and today I see that they are being overused. They are there to AUGMENT education, not REPLACE it.

    I could tell hair raising stories about my experiences about those early days, dealing with the state higher ed school board, the governor's office, even the NSF and PBS. Not only did we have to make things work, we had to PROVE that everything we did indeed work. I need not point out the repercussions that these pilot programs had.

    By the way I should tell you that I am only 23 now, just out of college - so you can imagine my age back then. I was very lucky, and just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
  • I have not seen much action from them, mostly words and noise. I know about NETDAY and stuff like that, but they are half-hearted efforts. I signed up with them when they first formed, and have heard almost nothing since.

    Private industry is good too, but what you need the most is people's TIME. I can't stress that enough.
  • There is a chartered and operational TECH CORPS chapter in Salt Lake; contact Ginny Gale[ggale@media.utah.edu] or Dory Jensen[djensen@techcorps.org], national Director of State Organization.

    TECH CORPS a national non-profit organization, funded through corporate contributions, and implemented through state chapters. Their purpose is to marshal the talents of volunteer IT professionals to benefit public schools. They will have some real answers to your questions earned through experience in dealing with school districts nationwide and coordinating volunteer systems implementation/integration projects. Visit techcorps.org [techcorps.org] for more information.

  • Much of what I think is possible with TECH CORPS remains to be seen in many regions. Note, with not from TECH CORPS. As I understand it, regional members need to find the applications. Then they submit a proposal and get the equipment, money, counsel, and support from volunteer executives (the slick, winning, exponent types).

    An advocacy organization such as this may be just what he/she is looking for with practical benefits dealing exactly with those questions he/she hinted at such as understanding the legal framework of philanthropy and public schools. ;) How to deal with objections to what some will see as an open media channel. How to re-focus the bureaucrat who will not see beyond liabilities toward the necessity of perpetuating technology savvy etc. These are not trivial problems. They've probably done the legwork . . . lawyers and all.

    My advice to Paranoid Diatribe is to take what is offered expressly for someone with such a heart. Take it and run with it. Realize the hope of those who have worked to form a national organization in order to fill in the fusty details and enable your charity. Corny? Finish one project then decide.

    Many posters here feel disenfranchised and unappreciated afterward. Understandable. So what. Try it anyway.

    (Contact me, even, if you like. Layne Hansen [lhansen@jensenprecast.com]---an IT exec in Nevada)

  • yeah, this is similar to what the lxny folks are doing. i'm trying to do the same in austin, texas. fwiw, here's a snippet of an email i got from my congressman, Lloyd Dogget. if you'd like to help, i've already found a school that wants to set up a linux computer lab. drop me a line and let me know.

    cheers,

    robert

    Thank you very much for you interest in helping Austin area schools apply for E-rate money through the Schools and Libraries Division(SLC) of the Universal Service Administrative Company. For the past two years that E-rate money has been disbursed, I have worked closely with school districts in Travis County to ensure that they apply for this money so that our students have the best tools to learn and utilize the leading cutting edge technology.

    At present, SLC is currently funding year two of this project, and on May 27, 1999 the Federal Communications Commission acted to fund the E-rate to the cap of $2.25 billion. In order to find out more information about the E-rate program I suggest that you visit www.slcfund.org. In addition you might want to contact Stephanie Hamilton, Director of Technology at Austin Independent School District, to let her know of your interest.

    Thank you for having the confidence in me to assistance you with this matter, and I appreciate your commitment wanting to elevate the quality of our children's education. Should you need additional information on this issue or any other issue of a federal nature please do not hesitate to contact my office.

  • It's funny how this topic should come up.. I was pondering the other day about setting up a charity in England to provide free software, hardware, and technical consulting (no job too big or small) to charities who need the stuff to do their job but really can't afford it. I came up with the idea after hearing that my mums charity (the Rosemary foundation) had just bought a bunch of PC's, and not really knowing much about it ended up wasting money on kick-ass games machines because the vendor convinced them that this is what they need.

    This is only an idea so far, but if anybody either
    a) knows of an existing charity that's already doing this
    b) is interested in helping

    then contact me at gilesc@ftech.net
  • It's because whoever saved that gif didn't set the transparency problem. Rest assured that 5000 emails have informed various people ranging from hemos to the stockholders of Andover.net about this.
  • Putting issues of whether or not it's a good idea for kids to have net access, there is already a group like this in the Baltimore area. I commented on this a while back, but I was so far down in the comment list, I'm not sure anybody saw it.

    The group is called "Geeks Into The Streets", and the homepage is at http://linux.umbc.edu/ You can follow the links from there.

    If we can keep people from treating the internet as an electronic babysitter, I don't think bringing internet access to kids will be much of a problem-- who knows, if we hook 'em up with Linux boxes, we might raise an entire generation of SysAdmins!

  • almost always 100% of the parents were willing to sign it.

    Absolutely. We have a lab at the school I volunteer for in which we offer students email accounts on the system. The parents *and* the kids sign a waiver regarding the responsibilities and such. Pretty straight forward stuff and no one has turned it down yet.

    To the guy with the original question... Get in touch with your local schools. They *love* volunteers. Talk to whoever is running the technology side of things and see how you can help. Content should be the school's problem to solve. We just teach our kids to be kind to each other, post as themselves and browse like your parents were watching over your shoulder. So far everyone has been well behaved and the few slip ups have been good lessons for everyone.
  • What would happen to society if everyone suddenly (by a miracle) learned how their computers worked?

    Gee?... Microsoft wouldn't be able to sell their product anymore?

    I mean, if everyone knew how their computers worked...
    would they be willing to spend money on a product that
    used it the wrong or inefficient way?

  • I just hope that you're not saying TV IS a
    babysitting device... *shudder*

    Television is EVIL!!!

    It turns your bain into cottage cheese and when
    you sleep at night.... it dribbles out your ear
    onto your pillow!


    BOYCOTT NETWORK TV! *grin* And uhh... commercials suck.. hehehehehehehehe


  • My answers are

    Question 1: www.netday96.com [netday96.com]

    Question 2: No, not that I wouldn't like to.

    Question 3: Yes.

    Question 4: www.netday96.com [netday96.com]

    On your inferred question about liability issues such as politicians/bureacrats targeting you because of internet issues:

    It is the responsibility of the governing board (and the school staff) of the school or school district to 'protect' students from harm, although I've seen a few disclaimer forms around that sound like schools disclaim any monetary claim to safety (physical or otherwise) on behalf of students.

    Contact Netday96 [netday96.com] and get with helping those children out (if they are in public school you better bet they need help, it is government school after all).

    The whole issue would more of a moot point if only government government got out [sepschool.org] of the education business. The government school system purpetuates nothing so well as mediocrity and bloated bureacracy.

    P.S. Did I mention you should look up www.netday96.com [netday96.com]?

  • as far as the high school kids, I looked for ones who's parents didn't have the cash... I live in a rich school district, but there are some people here who have no money to spare. I made sure those technically capable but monetarily unable kids got a hookup.
  • This is truly an interesting question, I've personally delved into some different problems with this. 1.) is that most local organizations either want them but can't take them, or could take them but don't want them. I know that sounds silly, but I've had elementary schools tell me that they really need computers to upgrade from apple IIe's, but the district has a strict guidline saying they can only have a minimum of a pentium II/266 if they get new equipment.
    2.) many places won't or can't take equipment because it messes with their tax setup. none of them have ever tried to explain this to me, and I truly wish I could find out how it all works. I don't even want to take any kind of tax break for this, and I think they might want to be able to say it came from a real charity. so much for helping people in need, right?
    3.) helping individuals is great, but I would really suggest if you want to get into the computer charity thing that you do NOT do that, or if so, only on a limited basis. why? because of support. If you give computers to an organization, they can usually ask you questions all at once, you can train one person who can show others how to use things, etc... if you give them to people you come across through a church, school, or local organization, you seem to always end up helping them with hardware and software problems. (I had to change my work cell phone # because a group of poor folks I gave computers to email and surf the net would call me over 20 times a day!)

    I don't mean to sound like a naysayer, because I truly think it is important to give out what we have to those who need it. but before you go out and start doing things, have a plan, and research things... as a previous poster said, find a local organization. they can be the best way to do things because the overhead is no issue.

    locally in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area, I like to volunteer at http://www.dragnet.com [dragnet.com]. dragnet is very cool and does alot of what I wanted to do.

    Last note- if you want to have fun, my most exciting project was this: I went to a local high school, asked the math/computer teacher guy (there's always one) if he knew some kids who could really use a computer to learn programming, etc. I tracked down and met with 5 worthy little geeklings (reminded me alot of myself at that age), and gave them IBM thinkpads w/ a stock turbolinux install on them. all between 486/75's and pentium 120's. my only stipulation to them was that they HAD to use them for linux, and while I couldn't check up on them I really expected them to learn how to use it. So far, we've met up once every other month or so, I buy them pizza, and we do geek stuff and talk about linux. It's a great reward!

    -Eric

    egjerde@email(nospam)com
  • Oh boy, that's a hoot! :) I was more tired when I wrote that than I thought, I guess.
  • Thank you for providing that information. Reading "between the lines", it sounds like the computers you're receiving from the rehabilitation program are of higher quality than those which are sometimes donated by businesses. Because of the rapid pace of computer technology, I can see how that might be the case.

    I will begin to think along the lines of teaching how to use computers rather than administrate them. Thanks again!
  • I'm glad you pointed this out. As has been said before, there is no success that can compensate for failure in the home. Parents must not try to defer their responsibility to anyone or anything.

    Now, I do tend to believe that computers improve reading and reasonings skills dramatically. And they can even be good for spelling. As evidence, I will draw from personal experience. (If this were an essay, I would provide more evidence. :)

    I was introduced to the Commodore 64 at age 8. My parents did not buy any software nor even a magnetic storage device, and told us that if we wanted to use the computer we had to write programs for it. Lo and behold, after great struggles I learned BASIC. I was very, very happy when I figured out how to make a Christmas tree with blinking lights on the screen. For years, successfully writing a new program on a C-64 or Atari was an extremely rewarding experience. For the first two years, my Dad helped me write some of the programs, but it did not take long before I was doing things that were beyond what he'd learned in college.

    I think my parents' decision to not buy any software, although it actually stemmed from a financial need, was probably the best decision in my case. Had they bought games, I would have simply played them. Programming at that early age forced me to think, toil, ponder, be creative, and solve problems. I had to learn to read quickly, understand higher math, and type words with perfect accuracy.

    The results? Well, I won the spelling bee and I rarely if every use spell checkers (of course, this may be my unlucky day and someone may find a spelling mistake. Yes, I know there are gramatical errors.) I won a state math competition and went to the national level. My SAT scores are in the 99th percentile.

    But not everything turned out right. Because I surpassed all of the educators at my school in computer skills, they very often called on me to fix the computers. In time I came to the conclusion that the teachers aren't as smart as they seem and I came to doubt that they were qualified to teach me. It was a very prideful conclusion and it caused my grades to suffer. I continually sought any excuse to go to the library where the computers were. In short, I rebelled against the whole school system.

    But I continued to wear nice clothes and teachers continued to ask me for help, so no one knew I needed to be humbled but my parents. My parents worked hard with me, so my grades never fell too far. My social life was good because of my religion.

    Glad you've read this far because this was turning into a lonnnggg life story. Back to the point: computer technology that forces the child to think can be very beneficial. However, a limit has to be placed on everything!
  • I'm also in Salt Lake City and I want to join the party!! E-mail me.
  • We need the moderation points to work like they used to so this post can receive a score of 4 or 5! C'mon, guys!!
  • What's the deal with the icon for this story?
  • I do some work on the side for an public elementary school here in town that works with the university. The school administrators apprectiate any help they can get and will more then likely in your area welcome it. People always complain about public schools but dont do anything about it. A little time and little talent can help a school put computers in classrooms while sharpening your skill set. Im sorta lucky because the school I work with has 3 T1 connections, almost a many as the university's. =).

    Hangtime
  • So of course. Lets just forget about the 85% of students that attend public school in this country this year. We will only work in private schools where its much more free and open and easy. No sir. Whether we admit it or not, the public education system in this country (U.S. and all other free nations) is our backbone. If people can't read, write, spell, multiply, and critically think we are all doomed.
    "Well I dont have kids in school, or my kids goto private school. I dont have to worry about the system."

    EHHHHH!!! Wrong Answer. Guess where most all our citizens come from, where do our workers and professionals come from, here's a clue. IT AINT PRIVATE SCHOOL!! Your either part of the solution or through your ignorance, stupidity or apathy are part of the problem.

    Hangtime

  • Don't you get it? Americans are so far behind the educational level of the rest of the first world countries that it's a socioeducational commentary.

    Well, that and "Long Live Big Brother."

    -Chris
  • I've wondered about the same thing. Many companies donate computer equipments to schools and non-profit groups, but there is a serious lack of affordable support. How hard would it be to organize free, once a week support for computers in schools? Schedule it so that it everybody does it one saturday morning a month, go in for 4-5 hours and do desktop and network support, next week it's someone else's turn. As for the legal issues, it's up to the local school district to set their policies regarding internet access, filters, OS choices, etc. I'm interested in helping kids, not advocacy. If that's your priority, do it in the voting booth and at your school board meetings. Anyone who wants to try this in Houston, TX drop me an email.
  • This idea has got pretty big in New Zealand. What started out as a bunch of enthusiasts coming into a school and having a crack at networking the whole place in one day has now attracted big names and bigger money. When Net Day roles around now, it happens at a whole bunch of school and you have to apply etc. For more info check http://www.netday.net.nz/ [netday.net.nz]. Apparently it started in the US...
  • ...Goes Unpunished!

  • Hey, Inteligent people can catch up. I got my first computer, a p166, 2 years ago. I was working in a computer lab 2 months later, installed linux after 8 months, and am now working at a nice summer job due to my programming skills.

    It doesn't matter if you are behind, if you are willing to learn. I picked up Java as my first programming language. Then C++, it is really nice to be able to think in terms of objects. I am a better programmer(IMHO) because I never hacked basic, or C. I think in terms of objects, and that makes me one of the most valuable progammers where I work. I believe that I have now caught up.

  • umm. yes i'm sure snuff films are available at the local blockbuster.. oh wait, blockbuster doesnt carry the faces/traces of death series...
    and Nazi propaganda never converted anyone? can you honestly believe that people would read "the jews are the cause of all evil" and believe it? well.. some ignorant idiots maybe.. as far as I know, or read, most people chose to follow or allow nazi'ism for the same reason a group of people will do nothing when they see someone being raped/beat up/injured.. it's group behavior, and the lack of decision making that happens when people are put into situations that they rather avoid.. read some sociology books sometime..
    the point i was trying to make was not for anarchy, but for choice.. if you take away a person's ability or willingness to choose and think for themselves, you're left with either a bunch of zombies, or a bunch of very dissatisfied people who will end up rebelling and creating a civil war, a state much worse than anarchy..
    maybe that is what we need, given that the alternatives arent looking too good right now.. take it as you will, but like any other situation in life, there are extremes which must be allowed for.. is it better to have a free state, with no government/activist group telling you what you should/shouldn't do, and have the occassional extremists that go out of their way to shock others, or would you rather be in the middle, safe from even your own shadow?
    sometimes pushing the extreme, and accepting it is better than blindly accepting what the government tells you.. isnt that what the germans did in nazi days? close their eyes an ears and accept what the propaganda told them?
  • does this constitute as something "even adults shouldn't see"? Sometimes i wonder about people, and their twisted sense of humor, etc..
    but when someone else comes along and says that is something "even [fill in your suitable replacement for "nice"] people shouldn't see" you're pretty much sending one message.. "it offends my tastes, so we should ban it."
    Now, I do agree that some things a kid might read on some obscure webpage (try reading some of those extreme religious/anti-religious sites, especially their humor sections) can affect the way they think about things... hell, a bird taking a nose dive and splatting crap on their face can affect the way they think.. but i really dont think that seeing a naked woman, reading about different philosophies, d/l'ing dirty jokes and/or playing gory games is gonna turn all kids into perverts, psychos, S&M torturers, or fundamentalists...
    that's something that, for the lack of a simpler model, involves parents, school, friends, environment, and so on, and so forth..
    not to say that computers *wont* affect it.. they just wont play that big of a role.. think of how many of us have seen/read stories and pictures that "even adults shouldn't see".. did we turn out to be perverted homicidal maniacs? did we all of a sudden give up being who we were and became all fiendish like some people like to believe?
    i highly doubt that kids are so idiotic not to realize by themselves, and for themselves, what is and isnt an acceptable, and how far they can get away with breaking the rules just a bit..
    Do we really want to make our kids into zombie-like yesmen/women, or do we want them to be able to think, and more importantly *choose* for themselves what to make of their lives?
    just a thought or two at 2.30am
    cheers
  • The author stated he hooked the 4 yr old's 486 up to his/her "little LAN". Unless this poster is really Al Gore, they probably don't mean to imply this IS the Big I.
  • you might have learned to spell correctly

    Because everyone knows that the "prevailent" (see article) attitude on the Internet is one of excellent spelling...

  • A reference to 1984.

    Or, for a slightly longer answer: Slashdot is surreptitiously letting us know that our perception of reality is nonexistent, and that what reality there is is formed by Slashdot. They're telling us that we are driven by the fetishism of technology which distorts our perception of the past and present.

    Either that or they though it looked kinda funny.
  • That link is broken... It needs an .au on the end: http://www.computerbank.org.au [computerbank.org.au]
    --
  • (of course, this may be my unlucky day and someone may find a spelling mistake. Yes, I know there are gramatical errors.)


    It's always going to be your unlucky day if you say something like that. (Grammatical, by the way. :-)
  • url is Computer Bank [computerbank.org], if you want to have a look. It basically gets old computers ( i.e., those from companies that have updated their computers and would otherwise chuck them out), and putting a customized version of Debian on them, and giving them away for nothing.
  • I agree with the comments being made in this thread. Parents have the responsibility of preparing their children for all areas of life. Parents who rely on a surrogates (human, chemical, or electronic) to educate or entertain their children are shirking their responsibility every bit as much as those parents who abandon their families.

    I would like to offer another perspective on your comment:

    "When I have kids, I'll give them a computer with a command line interface, and if they are interested in learning to use it, I will teach them. Then, when they get to be teenagers, they can have their GUI."

    It is not necessary to start with a command line interface to become skilled with computers. My first exposure to computers was when I was in high school. It was a command line interface. (teletype on a main frame) I don't know what kind of machine it was. I thought it was interesting but after a brief introduction I didn't do anything else with computers until several years later. I bought a Mac Plus for personal use and that use lead to a career in the computer industry. I have been employed as a graphic designer, user interface designer, and programmer. Computers are also one of my hobbies and my children are growing up surrounded by them.

    We have Macintoshes, PC's, and PDA's. My children consider the various operating systems and input methods to be equally valid, each with it's own strengths and weaknesses. For example, my forth child, a four year old, is just as comfortable with DOS or LINUX as he is with Windows or the Mac OS. Because his reading skills are still limited he does need some assistance learning new commands or when confronted with new prompts or error messages, especially in the text based systems. He seems to understand that this is a normal part of learning.

    I any endeavor curiosity and a willingness to learn are much more important than where you start in determining how proficient you become.
  • I played with apple II's [not IIe, not even II+] in school, and the first computer I owned was a TS1000. Where do you think I learned my command-line based skills? I learned to program by hacking together lines of spaghetti code so many years ago.

    "Waste resources teaching kids specific skills"? I think not.

  • the gif transparency is messed up. when you select the area of a gif to make transparent the graphics app sometimes swaps in an contrasting colour to show the transparent areas.

    saddest thing is that the graphic didn't need any transparency - it will only ever be shown against a white background. if it ain't broke.....


    +++++
  • I'd recommend you turn your efforts to an established charity at first.. There are a few reasons for this: 1) They've done the hard legal work, which sounds like one of your concerns. You won't be responsible, you'll just be volunteering. 2) An established charity or organization has a much larger chance of impacting an area -- these people spend every day thinking about how to reach and serve people in a certain community, as opposed to you and I who have day jobs, and will just be starting out with our best guesses as to what will work and what won't.

    Also, it's easy to volunteer time to a local charitable organization...Really easy. Most inner city charities and public projects are desparately short staffed, especially when it comes to qualified technical individuals. It's just a matter of finding one. If you have a religious affiliation (that likes children), you might want to start there. Just calling your local YMCA in an urban setting should provide you with some solid leads..

    I work with a Christian organization in Cambridge, Mass, for example. It's a collaboration between a Cambridge church (CVCF [cambridgevineyard.org]), full of Ivy League grads with money, or time, (not many have both), and Dorchester Temple, an inner city church with plenty of people, young and old, who would not otherwise have access to computer training, or exposure. The Ivy Leaguers do training at various levels, and are implementing a mentorship program for the kids. Some of the kids want to become entrepeneurs, artists, etc. Totally exciting stuff! It's easy, too..anyone on slashdot could make an impact -- the inner city is still largely at a mid-80s level of computer education.

    I'll stop my exuberant cheering, here. But, in short, a couple of phone calls should book as much of your time as you'd like to fill helping charitable organizations, and they'll probably be able to help you fulfill your dreams of helping out much sooner than you could do on your own.

    (e-mail Andrew Sears [mailto] for more information.)
  • I worked in a charity similar to the one you described. It was called the "digital clubhouse", and was located in Sunnyvale, CA (heart of Silicon Valley). If you plan to start off such a venture, you need to find someone who is extremely charismatic and who is capable of talking the local tech companies into giving away free software and hardware (like premiere from Adobe and computers/printers from hp). You also need to find a group of loyal volunteers who can put in long hours, together with a handful of techies who can come on a regular basis. Running such a charity is a strange mess. On one hand you might have great servers that were donated by Sun; on the other hand you are scraping together pennies to purchase CAT 5 for cabling. Legal problems shouldn't be too much of an issue. Just make sure that everybody signs a waiver (one that would be cosigned by legal guardians in case of minors) that removes you from liability. Also make sure that there is a clear and conspiciously posted policy regarding internet usage. As for whether its worth donating time for charity . . . Let me just say it can be pretty fun if you can work with friends, but it does take a giant bite of your free time. You need to make a serious committment if you want things to work. For finding out more information, you might want to get in touch with the founder of an existing charity with goals similar to yours. People who run such operations are usually more than happy to share their experiences and wisdom.
  • How this one got past the moderators is beyond me, but really, what's wrong with being Mormon? Of course, by calling it "mormonism" you show that you don't know enough of the religion to really say.
    I might get really worked up about it, but it's late, and I know how boring it can be, reading someone else rambling on about their religion. So I'll just finish by saying that I hope you learn a little about the LDS Church before you go bashing on us again.
  • I did some work with a local organization that was part of a public housing community. They have a computer learning center for children and adults. The children have to behave and sign in, and so do the adults. I set up a NAT server with linux in the adult room so that all the computers in there could use the internet through a single modem. It's not fun to do with a modem, but dsl should be great. Especially if you get a cisco 675 thingy, it's pretty easy to set up for doing that. If you just log your hours as volunteer time, you shouldn't have to worry about liability. The people who run it know a lot more about liability issues, and it usually comes down to supervision anyways. Ask if you can set up filtering software, or if even setting guidelines would be enough. It's great that you want to do this, if you have any questions or want any refernces about such places, please email me. travis@pulley.org

    Shameless plug! http://blairewitch.com [blairewitch.com]
  • If it's the same one I saw, it's bogus. But I can't remember it either :)
  • I agree that a close bond to parents is important, but you're missing the point of giving children access to computers in a public environment. A lot of kids improve their education at places like these. If you read more books at an early age, you might have learned to spell correctly. Taking somehting into your hands and learning how to use it can be very helpful to you. And there's an excellent social environment if there are responsible people running it. Kids learn to share, they help each other learn, and they get kicked out if they're not being responsible. Their parents are encouraged to come with them to learn, even though many don't. Would you mind having your kid "babysitted" by a book? Computers help kids think on their own, but TV tends to think for them. Please don't get that confused.
  • How about teaming up with CompuMentor [compumentor.org]? I did a project with them in Colorado a few years ago. I though their organization was alright.
  • with the existing educational system.

    About 3, almost 4 years ago, I participated in an event in California(don't know if it was in the rest of the country) called NetDay'96. About ten people volunteered to run network cable throughout the school, in preparation for a future internet connection. 3 years later, the cable is still unused.

    I volunteered in my old elementery school's computer lab for several years, maintaining the Mac (ugh) network. There were some basic programs on the computers, educational games and such, but the teachers had absolutely no training or knowledge of the systems themselves, and the budget had long ago cut out the required funds for a real computer teacher. That computer lab has long since been disassembled and all of the machines have been placed in other classrooms, usually two to a classroom. Teachers do not have time to send students to the computers, so they end up gathering dust in a corner (the computers, not the students). My mother currently is a special ed aid at another elementary school, and the local prison donates computers to the school, refurbised by the prisoners. The 486's could be put to good use, but they currently only have win3.1 on them. Win95 is available for each...on CD...when the computers only have floppy drives. Linux would probably do halfway decent, but I don't have the time to teach the teachers, who are already scared of Macintoshes the ins and outs of UNIX.

    My sister was recently telling me that when she was in 7th grade, a treat in computer class was getting to draw a picture on the apple 2 GS systems after finishing typing in a program. I had her particular teacher as well, and can report that this guy know less about the systems than most of the students.

    I admire anyone with a will to get technology into schools, but we have to go against the current technophobic system and provide training for teachers, money to get teachers who know anything about computers, and real internet access, without limits.

    I've learned the most on the internet when not looking for anything in particular, just surfing around looking at things that interest me. Kids should be able to do the same, without fear of getting in trouble. I think 'net access inherently lends itself to learning by osmosis. If you are out there, you will gradually pick up information.

    It will take a while, but I think things will gradually get better for schools and net access. As soon as teachers can turn around, stop thinking like teachers, and see the potential in the internet, it will take off.

    I'm done with my (semi-off topic)rant.

  • The internet poses a threat to those who fear freedom of information and ideas. The people who scream for internet censorship are not worried about pornography, or at least not only pornography. They are not so worried that their child is going to see T&A as they are that their child will encounter ideas or facts that don't correspond to the view of the world their parents are trying to spoon feed them. In other words they are afraid that their child might see something online that led them to conclusions not shared by the parents. This is also known as thinking for yourself. It is the unspoken right upon which other rights such as freedom of speech or freedom or religion depend. Without freedom of thought, you cannot speak your own mind nor have religious beliefs that are truly your own.

    Pornography is used as an excuse to introduce censorship, which will then be used to attack other types of online content. This is already happening right now. The companies which create software packages such as CyberPatrol do not release their lists of banned sites, and many sites having nothing at all to do with pornography are on them. Sites dealing with social issues are frequently banned.

    The only reliable means of controlling someone's mind is to control what they learn and what information they have access to.

    The content online cannot be controlled by any one entity or power. Ideas and views must stand on their own against other ideas on merit alone. That scares people whose ideas are based on things that cannot be proven, or have already been proven false. These are the people who have the most to gain from internet censorship, and the most to lose from the free exchange of ideas that the internet represents. Online censorship is the digital equivalent of burning books.

    So the next time you hear someone screaming about how online porn is harming kids, stop and look at that person and think about what deeper agenda they may be following. They may simply be a parent who is truly concerned about pornography alone. If people weren't concerned about the pornography there would be no issue for the book burners to use an excuse to begin with. Its sad that a legitmate concern can be so easily taken and twisted into an attack on all of us.

    Lee
  • First, a point. You can't avoid the risk of lawsuits, unless you want to live under a rock. A really desparate lawyer might take a case against somebody who provided pro bono support to a school, library, or museum, but he'd probably lose, and in some cases his client might face sanctions under SLAP suit laws. If you charged money for filtering software and made certain irresponsible represntations about its capability you might have some liability.

    You may find an organization, like Net Day (www.netday.org) that is already doing what you want to do, or who needs local organizers. This is probably the best route for you, if there is a good match with what you want to do. If what you want to do is different, you can treat it like any other consulting gig. You find a client, make a proposal, interview him for his concerns, add your own ideas, write it up explaining any limitations you know of in advance.

    If you have a new idea and are on fire to change the world, you could create a new non-profit organization. You'll probably want to organize as a 501c(3) organization so you are considered a charity for tax purposes. This involves some paperwork and delay from the IRS. Your states law may vary, but as a board member of a charity, your legal responsibilities and liabilities may be different from your for-profit counterparts. It is important, then to have a lawyer assist you in planning this so you understand your responsibilities, unlike creating a small for-profit enterprise such as an S-corporation, which you can do yourself.

    Finally, if you do create a new charity, I'd have lots of advice, but there's really two important things you'll need to know at the outset. First, you should put together a good board of directors. Each member should bring resources to the table, such as money, contacts (very important in charity work), community standing or credibility, and experience. Some people just put their friends on the board, but when push comes to shove, the board makes the difference between success and failure.

    Second, non-profits are from a management perspective almost exactly like for-profits. They run on money. Time is money. Opportunity costs are high (small donations are not worth pursuing unless its cash on the barrel and no questions asked). You need to pour time into them. They go through the same kind of stages of development a business does.

    In all liklihood, you don't need to create a new charity to do what you want to do. If you just want to volunteer, just volunteer; you can even solicit donations on behalf of the school or institution you are volunteering for. You need to create the non-profit it it has to have its own identity, resources, and funding.
  • I believe it's a joke/comment:

    Education (or lack thereof)

    I think the entire world is aware of the US education problem.
  • Interestingly enough, Linus told Loki that he wanted to see them make educational software for Linux.
  • Would you mind having your kid "babysitted" by a book?

    Actually, this came up in the NPR debate as well. Yes, personally, I would mind. But it does depend a great deal on the age of the child. But, would you let you child pick out any book completely on thier own, not show it to you, take it into thier room, and spend hours away from you isolated with some book that you don't know anything about yourself? That's sort of the point. The supervision is missing. And, the supervision is the issue.

    My point is simply, it has nothing to do with the "thing" the kid does. It has everything to do with who they do it with, or if they do it alone. And, that's where the dangers of Television and Computers come in... The children get an enormous amount of access to information that the parents don't take responsability for monitoring.

    Society as a whole chose long long ago that children should listen to thier parents and obey until the age of 18, when they could declare thier independance. Anything that makes it easier for a parent to "get out of thier responsability" is something I am against.

    So, no, I don't think it's wise to let them read a book on thier own as a substitute for reading with them or to them. And, if thier old enough to read on thier own and take a book into thier room to read it, it's highly unlikely they will click a button in the book and it will turn into something totally diffrent that something you as the parent saw them take into thier room. But, I sure wouldn't let them wander to the library on thier own at the age of 4 or 5, and pick something out on thier own, and take it into thier room without letting me know what it was... there are way to many things that can go wrong along the way.

  • Yes, Yes yes yes yes yes. The internet exists to share knowledge. Children have thier whole lifes to learn, and unfortunatly not a lot of experiance to share.

    Get the older people on the net. They have years of wisdom to share, that will benifit society as a whole.

    Plus, if they waste a few hours looking at porn, or reading something inapproprate, where's the harm?

    The risks and liabliaty is much lower.

    The rewards for society are much higher. Documenting thier knowledge and skills for future generations is something that we all may benifit from someday. Need advice on a new buisness? Check Grandpa Wilson's experiances running his own hardware shop for 25 years on his web site... Need to learn to cook your own meals and save a few bucks? Read Great Aunt Jennys online recipies she developed after 40 years of feeding 8 children on a very low income....

    Now, THIS is an idea I could get behind and would love to support.

  • When I have kids, I'll give them a computer with a command line interface, and if they are interested in learning to use it, I will teach them. Then, when they get to be teenagers, they can have their GUI. That ought to be interesting.

    Great idea, if you allow them to have one in thier own room or something. I think I will probably have a very good computer, up to date hardware and software, to make use of some of the wealth of educational software that's out there, which is mostly GUI. But, I intend to be there to keep an eye on that even. And, it will be in a "common" area, not in thier bedrooms.

    As much fun as I have had drilling holes in the walls and floors and stringing stuff around to get diffrent rooms of my house to have access to a home LAN, I think I would at least wait until highschool before I let them have a computer with net access in thier own room... If then. Not sure. Hopefully, my children will be happy with using one in a common area, and will have the character to use it responsably. But I sure don't count on that, I plan on working on that, and being there, and watching out for problems, and dealing with them as they come up in a helpful way.

  • Internet or not isn't the point, I agree. But, I believe that the same debate came up a few years back about calculators in math class. And the conclusion was that calculators have to stay out of math for a while.

    You can't learn spelling with a spelling checker. You can't learn basic math with a calculator (addition and subtraction). You can't learn grammer with a grammer checker. And you can't learn how and what a graph means with a spreadsheet.

    Over the last 5 years, I have taught freshman chemistry labs, and I can honestly say, students are getting dumber. Sure more of them can reach me through email now than 5 years ago, but less of them can do basic algebra on a sheet of paper sitting in front of them in the lab with no computer in it. That's not progress.

    The computer is a tool. And a useful one. I totally agree. But my point is simply that it can be a crutch too. Most of the basics need to be done with pencil and paper first for understanding.

    People who learned programing with pencil and paper, and then after reviewing thier programs several times before submitting them to have punch cards made fully understand the value of writing efficent programs. People who use editors from the beginning and are just happy if things compile without errors are more likely to write bloat. I know a few people who worked with punchcards, and wrote programs by hand on paper first, and, as a "generalization" they write far less lines of code to do the exact same thing to this day, even when they are writing thousands and thousands of lines of code. In addition to being forced to do all the "extra" work was a step of "review" of thier code, because it helped to talk to others, look it over, and put a lot of thought into it BEFORE they tried to compile it. Even though they don't do that today, they benifited greatly from the experiance.

    That is what I am saying. The "mentoring" needs to be there. Parents can be with thier children when they use a computer. A room full of 20 children with one supervisor is a situation with far less mentoring.

    And, "Point and Click" isn't a hard skill to come by, learning how to create a logical procession of thought is something that is getting harder to come by. Logic can be taught much easier without the aid of something that thinks for you. :-)

    Unlike the flamebait that I didn't respond to, I am not a Luddite. I believe that computers are useful, and have thier place, and will benifit children, adults, etc. I would like to see them in the schools. But, I would also like to see that they don't get top billing, that thier use is "earned" by proving they understand the logic behind what they intend on using the computers for BEFORE accessing them, etc, etc...

  • Oh, I didn't say you should only help private schools. Private schools don't need your help. They know where their dollar is coming from and where it is going, so they manage things just as well as any successful business.

    Where do our skilled workers and professionals come from? Well, invariably they are people who are dilligent enough to claw their way to where they are, regardless of their schooling. I fell into one of those "special needs" categories, which made public schools a very hostile environment for me. I wouldn't be where i am now if it weren't for that learning environment.

    I wholeheartedly advocate vouchers. And i believe the calculation of the value of each voucher should be carefully meted out and rounded up rather than down so we can ensure that the value of each voucher is the actual cost of educating one student per year, including administrative costs, building maintenence, the whole tamale, rather than a conservative estimate of how much load one student puts on the system. Yes, this would definately raise the education expenditure. Boo hoo, eh?

    Second, I advocate education financing reform. Currently most schools recieve a large portion of their funding in the form of grants, which invariably have time limits and requirements. It's not uncommon for a district to recieve something along the lines of $100,000 that must be spent in the next 90 days on "handicapped access". If you don't spend it within 90 days, it's gone. If you spend it on something other than something obviously related to handicapped access, you're in big trouble. This is absurd. Schools should be allowed to pool their fluid assets and manage them like businesses.

    Third, I advocate tax credits for businesses that donate time, money, or resources to schools. I don't just mean donating old or spare computers, I'm talking about teaching. Say, a local company that engineers electronics devices sending an engineer over to the school once a week to teach applied electrical engineering for a few hours.

    Fourth, I advocate annual recertification of all educators. Failure to recertify resulting in manditory furlough. I challenge any educator to explain to me why they shouldn't have to prove they are qualified to teach. If you're certian you're qualified, a recertification test shouldn't scare you.

    Fifth, I recommend that the processes employed by district offices to manage schools be audited every three years. Many districts are horrendously inefficent and would fail as businesses if they were required to compete.

    Sixth, I recommend that it be made much easier to rid the market of poor educators. Currently, if a district attempts to revoke an educators teaching certificate for any reason, the teachers union will sue the district to prevent it, costing the district a huge ammount of money. Avoiding this often results in what districts refer to as "passing the trash" - the act of moving a poor educator to another district with a good recommendation, merely to get them away from the people who want them gone.

    Finally, I recommend that teacher salaries be signifigantly raised as based on standardized tests and parental review. cronieism is rampant in our education system, so I would not recommend peer review under any circumstances. I recommend that teachers be allowed to carry their existing salary rate with them when moving between schools. I also recommend salary raises based on aquisition of additional training or further certification.

    All of these recommendations are likely to cause quite a ruckus in the public education system if they were instituted. Centuries of complacency on the part of the public at large and stop gap measures on top of stop gap measures on the part of the districts and schools have lead to a state of affairs that is astoundingly unacceptable.

    If we bankrupt the public education system in the process of building a private education system that is self sustaining and just as open to the poor and needy, so be it.

    I have no respect for any person who says "Sure, the public education system is bad, but we'd be doomed without it."

    If you're willing to protect the system on the basis that it's better than nothing, you are as much a part of the problem as the system is. It's like saying "We can't stop using DDT, it's the only thing that keeps the aphids down".

    My parents were, and are, far from wealthy. I, and two of my brothers, and one of my sisters, were sent to private school on the salary of a tenured humanities professor. Many people assume that private school is the exclusive domain of the wealthy. It is not. At the end of the school day, every type and class of vehicle was present to pick up students, from Jaguars to Yugos.

    After two of my older sisters and two of my older brothers were dragged through the public education system kicking and screaming, my parents were determined that i should recieve a quality education. They bit the bullet and paid for it.

    The fact is that the school that i attended spends 11% less per student than the state of utah reports that it spends per student. This is signifigant, considering that the state of utah spends both the least ammount per student of any state, and the highest percentage of their total budget of any state.

    Regardless of the fact that this school did not, and has never had a selective application process, their standardized test scores have always been signifigantly higher than the state average.

    The difference? An unencumbered learning environment and a small group of students whos parents were directly involved with their education.

    It's not fair that they had to pay out of pocket for my education while still bankrolling the public education system through their property taxes. But they did what they had to in order to put me somewhere where i could learn effectively.

    All this being said, the real problem starts at home. As a parent, it is your responsibility to be actively engaged in your child's education, wherever that may take place. If your student is doing poorly in school, no matter how bad the teachers are, no matter how big the school is, you are the first person at fault. Accept that responsibility, and deal with it.
  • Sorry, I guess I answer some of your questions the best I can.

    My project group was run on the schoo department level, in particually the "Office of Technology," which oversaw all the vocational programs. Computers really did not have a department yet, and the vocational department was chosen more or less by default. Since we were working for the school department directly, there was no really liability issues for us, but our BBS ("pre-ISP") service was privately owned, and he had some hoops he had to jump to get a contractual agreement from the school board.

    The money for the programs came from private parties mostly, and from the NSF, but the governor's office previously had pissed off the NSF, so mostly they just breathed down our necks, hoping that we would fail.

    Problems usually fell into my lap, and my boss, the director of O.T. I went out of my way to interface directly with teachers so that they would not give us trouble by going through official channels, raising the ire of administrators along the way.

    Logistically, you really need about two FT people per school in order to make sure things run smoothly. As I was a student, I spent more time out of class than in. I was not expected to go to college, so that was not considered any great big deal. Media Services (remember filmstrip projectors?) handled the load in conjunction with me.

    Today I would assume that most school departments have a "Office of Computing Technology " or something like that. If not, usually ask for Library Information Systems. If a school department does not have an LIS office, then home. Strangly enough, LIS usually can pick up the slack because of the HELIN project and they fact that usually have free "time". Of all the departments I have worked with, statically speaking LIS is the most computer-literate, and the one with the highest computer productivity.

    Higher Ed only gets involved if you are proposing currcula changes or the like. If you are doing something completely revolutionary like 3D-chemical modeling (tryed it) then usually then high ed defers to the governor's office to do an offical inquery. For the "Internet project" we were lucky because we enticed PBS into it as well, so the governor got PR points out of it. At that time "the internet" was of limited value, and it was possible that we would have been shut down. Fortunately HELIN was just starting to ramp up, and the state univerity had recently updated their gopher server, And I had just figured out how to get weather reports from madlab.(umich?)

    One little antidote - I used to carry around a little pocket knife, about 4 cm long - and the day of the "big meeting," the demo lab only had 4 PC wired up. Our ISP guy came in at about 2pm with 30 ethernet NICs and 10-base-2 cable to wire the rest of the lab for the meeting at 3pm. He forgot to bring a knife to splice with, so he borrows mine. We just made it, but my knife was never the same.

    He got the contract, and now owns POPs in multiple states. He must be worth millions. Without that knife, he would probably still be a broke man, and "learning link" would not exist. I think I still have it somewhere, and sometimes I wonder if I should frame it with the inscription, "The knife that saved k12.edu" (Well, at least it would have been delayed until NCSA mosaic came around)
  • I am not on a crusade against GUIs, nor do I think that they spawned from the smoking pits of Hell, nor do I think they are for losers only, nor do I think they are the only way to learn to use a computer.

    I am not saying that I have my entire forray into parenting years from now planned to the last detail. I was saying that as a kind of joke with an element of truth in it.

    It came from my memories of writing a breakout game in 4th grade when I first learned to use the Apple IIe's command line interface. I remember how much fun it was, and how smart and computer-literate I felt (hey, it was 4th grade).

    There really was something to say for doing everything without ever moving my hands from the keyboard. It was like I was working in overdrive, molding a program as an artist works with clay. Then it was VB and Visual C++, and they worked pretty well for the small projects I was always into, but an element of pioneering and discovery was lost. Not until I started programming for linux did I feel like that again.
  • You are probably right: being with a parent is better than being with a computer or tv.

    But most of the kids who would end up going to this thing would probably (if they're like everywhere else) be part of an after-school program of some sort. These would be kids whose parents would be at work until 5 or 6 every night. For them, it's probably not a choice between "be with mom" and "play Reader Rabbit" (do they still make that? I loved that thing). It's a choice between "go to afterschool program and use computers" or "go home and watch tv, possibly get into trouble". Unfortunately, it's not about choosing whether or not to use an "eletronic babysitter"--many parents have already made this choice either from laziness or being too busy or thinking that it's good in moderation. The real choice is often about which electronic babysitter does the least damage. I think most of us here (except possibly those with CTS) would agree that a computer would do the least damage, being interactive.

    So in most cases, a parent is better, but when a parent isn't an option, then what?

    The real question is: Is it better to have children play with each other under supervision (not a parent) like normal or use a computer under supervision, and which requires less supervision. The answer might be the same; kids might be better off playing red rover (they still do that one, too?) instead of using the computer.
  • I believe that the young are not the only ones that need to be exposed to the 'information superhighway'. In the US there is a large population of (older) retired persons whom could be a great resource to the net. At present, these persons have been completely ignored with relation to technology. Without even mentioning the idea, many older retired persons have expressed a great interest to me in learning computers and especially the internet. Apparently there is currently no reliable for-profit or non-profit group in my area (Houston, TX) that assists older persons with computers. Does anyone have any suggestions in relation to setting up a non-profit organization to assist them? Feel free to email (digitalh2o@bigfoot.com) me regarding this issue, too.
  • Many of the comments I've read are quite insightful, but do not seem to address the specific problem of donating time and/or resources to Salt Lake City-area school district computer departments. I am a network engineer for the Granite School District [k12.ut.us], the largest in the Salt Lake City area, and feel I am qualified to answer your question.

    We are deploying several hundred Pentium 2-class PCs throughout the district over the summer with the goal of every single classroom having an Internet-capable computer at their disposal. In addition, the District has just approved $3 million dollars for new hardware purchases so that each teacher may have a reasonable machine upon which to work and browse the Internet. Internet access is filtered (at least HTTP access) through the Utah Education Network [uen.net] to remove objectionable material. Internet access is provided at the head-end through a single T1. So, to answer your questions:

    • Unfortunately, I am unqualified to answer questions about tax issues for nonprofit organizations. However, the Computers for Schools [detwiler.org] program routinely donates scores of computers to Utah schools. Individuals and businesses donate PCs to this program using the process outlined at the above URL, which are then cleaned up, and in some cases upgraded (To a Cyrix M2/GX 300 w/32 MB RAM and 4GB HDD) by prisoners in Utah detention centers, shipped to schools that have requested them, and put to use. BTW: The systems we get after the prisoners have worked on them are CLEAN, and I've never seen a single upgraded system go bad yet. They really do a good job -- hurrah for rehabilitation!
    • You would likely be rebuffed if you attempted to administer, repair, or install systems at schools (although just dropping off a network-and-Windows 95 capable machine would net you many thanks). A dozen qualified Network Engineers oversee 89 SysOps to make sure machines are installed, maintained, and correctly configured. There are strict security controls on all lab computers which generally only run Corel WordPerfect, NetScape Navigator, a couple security packages, and whatever specialty software is needed (scanning software, printer drivers, educational games, etc.) Your time would be very well served by volunteering to teach classes, run extracurricular clubs, or mentoring children (and teachers!) in PC technology. The administrators are generally receptive to someone willing to help or supervise children using computers before, after, or during schools. It is up to each principal if s/he wishes you to assist, however. Additionally, you must be careful (as one poster mentioned) that you do not become a commodity. You must set strict hours and limits on your participation, else you will be used to exhaustion.

    • If you really, really want to help fix systems, not just mentor children in their use, in Salt Lake City area schools, contact the Granite School DistrictHuman Resources Department [k12.ut.us] and let them know you wish to volunteer -- they'll definitely be able to help you out.

      Good luck to you in your volunteering efforts.

  • Wasn't there just a study that said... (Score:3)

    by BadlandZ ( 1725 ) on Sunday August 08, 1999 @06:46PM (#1758137) Journal
    Why is it I am always the nay-sayer...

    I was just listening to a long debate about the internet, computers, and television in childrens lives a few days ago. They made some very good points about why computers and television should be taken out of the lifes of children more and more. The reasons were not porn, or violence, or anything that you would like to call censorship.

    The cases were clearly showing that parents are relying more and more on "electronic" babysitters, hoping the kids would just watch TV or play with thier computers, and staying "out of the way." Children need guidance, even if they are not subject to "bad" influances. Children have to be taught some lessons that they can't get from "electronic babysitters."

    Social skills for one. I wouldn't want a whole generation of people who developed thier social skills on Usenet and Slashdot like sites, would you? Another point was that computers don't require any extensive amount of "logic" development, and the "better" a computer is in the public eyes, the less it requires from the users. This is why you get the BOFH stories, because people are given access to "powerful" computers without being taught any "logic" skills first. If we start giveing children more computer access at earlier ages, before we teach the basics (reading, lots and lots of math, etc..) they may call the helpdesk less, but it's unlikely they will be a generation of "better hackers" because they will lack some fundemental reasoning skills.

    What it boiled down to is this: Parents _must_ spend more time with thier children, and _anything_ that comes in the way of that is going to cause more harm. The list of excuses to avoid this is endless... I got a program that can teach them more about math than I can personally, they need to learn independance, I don't have time because I need to be away earning a living to support them, etc, etc, etc.... But the simple fact is, they should be learning independance, self respect, math, social skills, pride, and logic under parental guidance. The fact that the parent doesn't have the ability to teach these things is not an excuse to "let someone else do it." What really needs to be said is, who we need to be teaching is the parents, not the children. We need to give the parents the skills to confront thier children, one on one, and make them into the people we would want to be our neighbors, friends, and reletives.

    That being said, sure, a donation to a school of computers is a somewhat nobel thing. My children will probably have computers of thier own as well. But be warned, if the child grows to be more involved with any device more than they want to be involved with thier parents, it is an indication of something bad. And it is NOT unreasonable to remove the childs access to television or computers if the child is unwilling to spend time with the parents first.

    Aside: Look at me, I can attempt to look at my life and be self critical. I am suposadly a highly educated, responsable adult. BUT, I can't spell very well at all. And, I will say frankly, that somewhere along the line someone just pointed out a "spelling checker" to me insted of taking the time to show me how important it is to be able to do it on my own. So now, although I "educated" I am relyant on an electronic device, and trying to go back and teach myself something I should have learned 20 years ago from a parent or teacher.

  • Re:The greatest place to start (Score:3)

    by alhaz ( 11039 ) on Sunday August 08, 1999 @07:07PM (#1758138) Homepage
    I've worked extensively with the public education system in the united states, as the former technical lead in the customer service department of a company that sells an educational software package exclusively to schools.

    It's doomed. Burn it.

    My work included pre-sales coordination, so i wasn't only talking to the "bad" customers. Out of the literally dozens i worked with every week, I found that maybe 1 in 100 wasn't suffering from cranio-rectal insertion.

    My advice is simple. If the school gets the idea that you are offering them a free service, they will overstay their welcome. Yes, I even have extensive experience dealing with the Salt Lake City and West Jordan school districts.

    The first day will be fine. You'll arrive, install the system, show a math teacher and an administrative secretary how to work some of the programs, tell them where the power switch is, they'll chat with you for a while, say good bye, and everything will seem hunky dory.

    The second day you will recieve a call from someone who says they can't find the mouse. Someone will have stolen it, err, re-assigned it to a more important use. Alternatively, they may state that they turned it on and "nothing works". After an hour of troubleshooting over the phone they will admit that someone decided the system absolutly positively needed to be moved to another location, and that nobody knows where to plug anything in. They will also wonder why the network doesn't work, regardless of the visible lack of a network connection of any kind at the new location. You will be asked to run cable for the network connection.

    The third day, someone will accuse your system of having wreaked havok with something, anything else in the building. You will spend the rest of the day picking bits of paper out of the fax machine to prove it wasn't your fault.

    On the fourth day, the administrative secretary will call you and say that "nothing works". Upon further investigation you will realize that she carefully wrote down every single operation required to turn on the system, start IE, and bring up her Hotmail. She will be waiting at the prompt stating that windows was not properly shut down and the drive needs to be checked, utterly helpless.

    The following days will be various repetitions of the previous four. Some time within the first two weeks, someone important will call you and ask that you come to train a few of the teachers on how to use the system. You will arrive and find half of the district crammed into the gym staring at your system, which has been moved again, and again has the mouse plugged into the keyboard port and vice-versa.

    On a date some time between one week and two months from installation, you will recieve an angry call regarding pornography.

    Not until you disconnect your telephone, get new email addresses, and move to a new home will they stop asking you for help. You're a free lunch. Get used to it.

    Personally, I'm a product of a private education.

  • Very, very, very, very, very well said (Score:3)

    by grappler ( 14976 ) on Sunday August 08, 1999 @07:19PM (#1758139) Homepage
    I could not possibly agree with you more!

    I am always annoyed by parents that leave their kids in front of the tv to keep them "out of trouble". Perhaps thats what this whole debate over the internet it! Parents would like to leave their kid on the internet to keep them out of trouble, but they can't because it's not censored like tv. One of the short articles at the onion makes a great point about this - go to their page and look for the one called "Ritalin Cures Next Picasso".

    We have to stop and think "What are we trying to do when we surround kids with technology?" Some parents will do this because they are kidding themselves into thinking their kids will have an "edge" in the new high tech world. We at slashdot ought to know better than that - they will just learn to point and click earlier. Hardly a hard-to-come-by skill.

    There is something Neal Stephenson said that relates to this perfectly. I don't recall his exact words, but basically he said that the people that will control tomorrow's technology (and today's for that matter) are the ones that can comfortably deal with text. As in being able to read and write well. Multimedia is for the lusers - an interface for the 'eloi' out there.

    Net access is great when people reach a certain age - it will help you to really see issues from all angles and get the whole story, as opposed to television newscasts which present a very one-sided version most of the time. It gives you another way to figure out who you are, express yourself, and find a community other than the ones you live among.

    But little kids will not get that out of it. A 4 year old is much better off learning from a role model standing right there working with him/her, and playing with friends of the same age.

    When I have kids, I'll give them a computer with a command line interface, and if they are interested in learning to use it, I will teach them. Then, when they get to be teenagers, they can have their GUI. That ought to be interesting.

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