The Dismounted Soldier Problem 271
Pilchie continues:
"Some Ideas
These are some of the ideas that I have heard, and some of their drawbacks:
Don't walk. Use some other input system (joystick, whatever) to move the character. Problem: People get lost if they don't actually walk. See here.
2D mesh of bearings. This is probably the best idea so far, the idea is to have a 2d mesh of bearing that can rotate in any direction, each with a sensor to determine which direction it is rotating in. The drawback is the difficulty in sensing the rotation of the beads, as well as allowing them to move in any direction. Plus safety(things getting caught between the beads).
Spheres. This idea involves placing a person either inside or outside of a spere and letting the whole sphere rotate in an arbitrary direction (sort of like a mouse ball). The problem is making a sphere big enough, with little enough friction that it can actually be moved by a normal walking action.
Mime Walking. This involves teaching people to walk in a special manner to allow the system to know they are walking. See this again. Problem is that it is fake.
Large room/visual tricks. Put someone in a large room and let them walk where they want. When they start to approach a wall, rotate the picture enough that they compensate, but not enough that they realize it is rotating. Problem: obiously you can't be sure they won't hit a wall at some point.
Well what are your ideas on the issue?"
hmmm (Score:1)
If you think you know what the hell is really going on you're probably full of shit.
Re:hmmm (Score:1)
3d VR game that didn't have a vehicle (Score:1)
You moved around the ring by transferring your weight around the platform - you could actually simulate walking fairly easily.
mesh of bearings (Score:3)
Hypothetically, it would work like the logitech "marble" trackballs. The balls would be speckled, with large contrast between the ball color and the speckle color. Optical sensors would then track the movement of the balls, and I would assume, average out the direction and the speed of the movement among all the balls.
One problem would be after-spin. When you spin a trackball, it will continue to spin for a second or two after you let go, depending on how fast you would spin them. Maybe there would be more friction imposed on the bearing mesh. It's an interesting problem.
Re:hmmm (Score:2)
The problem with the former is that I can't envision how it'd work (others may be more perspicacious), and the latter takes away from total immersion.
3d movement, once 2d is taken care of, is simple as long as no-one wants to climb a virtual Everest.
Direct Neural Interface? (Score:3)
What ever happened to using a neural signal inhibitor to pick up the walking signals in the spinal collumn nerve cells and translating them into computer instructions?
We have pretty good beta of it going here at [echelon system autocensoring error 431 - no replacement known for this forbidden term] based on stuff the aliens bought left us. And it seems you can use it for a full 2 weeks before you loose your physical motoring skills completely!
The device also has great application within torture and teledildonics (what can I say, we don't get that many woman here at [echelon system autocensoring error 431 - no replacement known for this forbidden term]).
-
We cannot reason ourselves out of our basic irrationality. All we can do is learn the art of being irrational in a reasonable way.
Re:hmmm (Score:1)
Re:hmmm (Score:1)
Otherwise I think a "big trackball" would be the easiest to implement. Besides the fact that you would need a rather big ball so that you didn't risk loosing your balance due to the curved surface.
Suggestions (Score:1)
--If you have nothing to say, say nothing...
...I'll just shut up now, shall I?--
The VR games I've seen... (Score:2)
----------------
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein
You Don't (Score:2)
The real problem, however, will remain, and what you probably should do is hook up electrodes to your brain to pick up movement and simulate feelings and sensations. I admit that there's probably quite a few years until we can do that (which is why the game industry will try other things first), but I think that's where we're ultimately heading.
Walking? (Score:1)
It would work if you just wanted to move in a direction and ignore height, like Doom, but I don't see how it'd be so much better than controlling movements with an arbitrary input device. Resistance wouldn't be hard to add (press something against the sphere) but the rest of it would suck.
I guess you could put some realistic surface on the sphere, like astroturf or something, but you'd better hope the simulation doesn't have a desert, or a wood floor or something. And stairs would really be impossible. Nope, until holograms have physical mass, or we can arbitrarily shape some surface that externally looks pretty real or solid (super silly putty?) I don't think we're going to solve this one.
And remember, direct neural interfacing would really blow if you screwed it up. The non-physical solution would be the best one, bypassing the middle-man, but a *lot* of research would have to be done before I would be willing to try it. (virtual human crash-test dummies?
---
pb Reply or e-mail rather than vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11].
Re:hmmm (Score:1)
If you think you know what the hell is really going on you're probably full of shit.
Re:mesh of bearings (Score:2)
You could solve this by having the weight of your body press the balls down, away from a friction brake. When they have weight on them, they roll easily, but when the weight is removed, they lock in place.
And to save money you could use an optical tracking system that tracked multiple balls at once (like a video camera pointed at 8 or 16 or more balls at once).
- Isaac =)
SQUID Sensors (Score:5)
-Crutcher
total simulation (Score:1)
Obviously cost could be a problem but a cheap version would still provide most possibilities.
cya, Andrew...
Two robot arms (Score:4)
This would have the advantage of also working on stairs or gradients, or even wading through mud.
I have seen something similar in arcade games simulating skiing. These only had one degree of freedom for each foot though. For this to work you would need six.
Of course, things could get unpleasant if the machine crashed. Want to risk being a human wishbone anyone?
Dont let the feet touch the ground.. (Score:2)
Dream it! The ultimate VR sim (Score:3)
Ok. This might be *slightly* off topic, but If it's a great VR experience you are after you shuld try lucid dreaming (basicly beeing aware that you are dreaming, when you are dreaming, and then do whatever you like in the dream).
No problem with walking, eating, flying, doing magic etc...
Well it can be a bit hard to learn of course, but it's well worth it
Walking inside a ball (Score:1)
I believe the basic principle was to have wearable glasses that used a radio signal confined inside the globe to render a 3D on both eyes. Unfortunately I never got to try this though, so I'm merely digging from memory here.
However, using such an approach you could simulate several things. If you need to simulate going uphill, all you need to do is put some resistance on the ball's movement so that the user needs to go "up" inside the ball to make it roll. Likewise, if the ball is pulled slightly with the user, you would simulate downhill walking.
The ball approach however only helps when it comes to walking around. If you need to simulate mechanical things like stairs you get a problem.
As someone mentioned earlier on, the only way to get FULL immersion will be to hijack the brain signals. However, I'm not sure I would ever be able to trust technology enough to do such a thing.
Re:Suggestions (Score:1)
> that we have been doing it most of our lives,
> and consequentaly notice what is wrong.
I'd say that's _half_ the reason. The other half is that because we've been doing it (walking) for most of our lives, we have a hard time approaching the process objectively.
How about a mechanical suit suspended in mid-air (Score:1)
It would have to be more rigid than an overgrown data glove to adequately support the user's body and provide force feedback...
You can't hang in the air and swing your legs around like you're walking without getting tired real soon, so some support would be nessasary.
Re:slippery semispherical arena (Score:1)
> of shoe with a relatively slippery sole and be
> placed inside the bottom third (give or take) of
> a sphere made of plastic or some suitably
> slippery substance.
>
> The idea is that the user "walks" forward, but
> in reality only climbs a bit up one side
> of the sphere, only to fall back down to the
> center as gravity takes its toll.
Problem here, as with many of these thoughts, is that humans have an innate sense of acceleration (through the inner ear). Walking up the side of a sphere would lead to alternating acceleration forward and backward, in opposition to the expected alternating acceleration up and down (as during walking at a constant speed). And as is well documented, where the acceleration sense is in opposition to the position sense (visual), the result is nauseau.
rat
A few suggestions (Score:3)
There is one core problem here: how to maintain walking motion in a restricted space.
User is suspended in a harness, legs dangling, arms free. This can be comfy if done properly. Manipulation controls, gloves etc can be used for arms. On each foot is a position sensor. A certain line just above the maximum reach of the users feet is designated as 'ground'. He moves his feet in normal walking motions, and the positions of the feet in relation to the ground plane are interpreted:
Anyway - just some ideas. I'm very interested in such issues, so go ahead and email me.
Problems (Score:2)
One solution to this is to fake acceleration by letting people wear a vest and connect it to wires placed above and around the person. The wires then pull on the vest in a manner that lets the person lean into the movement. The drawback is that the system doesn't react fast enough to follow small changes, and the wires severely hinder arm movement. It also leaves the problem of inner ear unsolved, as you will never 'feel' the movement.
Re:mesh of bearings (Score:2)
Okay, you make a resonably sized floor of metal balls held in bearing packs. You should be able to stand on it and with some balancing or a hard support, walk normally. The friction break idea would help.. So, that gets you fairly free walking in 2d, but tracking that is still the problem. Enter the mesh..
Surround the bearing 'plate' with a strong flexable bag. So between your feet and the balls there is a thin layer of bag material.. I think that would result in a omnidirectional treadmill wouldn't it? Then print the bag some big dark spots and use camera watching the underside to track them.. The balls themselves are totally passive.. Walking on a ball method without the curved floor or having to have a huge ball in your office..
Problems that come to mind..
The bag/cover would have to be made of something strong, flexable and with a fair amount elasticisty, but I'm sure some substance exists..
The energy needed to move the bag around the plate would make each step require more force then normal.. Clever design could hopefully minimize this..
Seems cheap and uncomplex to me.. I'm sure someone has though of this before, but just in case, if anyone builds one, I want a ride (gross points would be nice too)..
Problem of acceleration (Score:5)
In constant-speed walking, the acceleration perceived is largely up-down, except during the first and last steps. Perhaps an appartus with a wide range of movement could duplicate both the up-down acceleration (a simple matter of "bobbing") and the initial and final accelerations, each of which would be followed by a gradual (enough not to be noticed) acceleration in the opposite direction, to ensure an eventual return to center. My gut feeling estimate is that to be "believable" a machine of this design would have to have a diameter of about ten meters. Big and expensive, but perhaps doable.
rat
Hybrid Solution (Score:1)
After the user dons specially outfitted "booties" containing sensors and soles designed for walking on bearings, they step into the ring and onto a bed of ball bearings. The bearings sole purpose is to facilitate walking in place, while the booties transmit their signals to the surrounding receptor equipment which encompasses the ring.
The receptor equipment feeds into a system which uses the data to triangulate the location of the feet- sampling as often as is necessary to simulate smooth walking/running. All processed in real-time...
Does that make sense?
probably the most realistic solution (Score:1)
The experience would be farily realistic, but still, the users movements would be only somewhat limited. ie. you can't "roll on the ground" very easily with such a device (possible, but adds to the complexity of the device. the device would have to be attached to a double set of "slideable" controlled axis, one outside the other.). I believe such a device is feasible, but quite an engineering/computational feat. You would need a computer system that can control all the "arms" in real time, taking into consideration a wide range of physics laws and how they relate to the virtual world the user is in. For more realism you could add more "arms" to other parts of the body, but this adds even more complexity as you must keep the arms from interfearing with each other. For still more realism I think we need to look at neural interceptors and transmitters, which is quite a while into the future.
-----
Re:Two robot arms (Score:1)
Re:hmmm (Score:1)
The sphere idea doesn't sound that bad, if we can build one big enough - only problem, you can't really insert things into the environment for them to interact with - namely, they can't sit down.
1993 BBC2 game show 'Cyberzone' did this (Score:1)
As far as I remember, the players just jumped up and down on some sensors. Can't remember much else about it, but I found this link which explains the program quite well.
http://www.qwe rtyuiop.co.uk/gs/atoz/programmes/c/cyberzone/index .htm [qwertyuiop.co.uk]
Waist Suspension + Mo-Cap (Score:1)
Basically, a device around the waist will still allow for enough movement below the waist for walking. The device would look something like a large C-Clamp that would fit around the waist and lift the user up slightly (5-10cm - just enough so they can't touch the ground by stretching). If more support is required, then add shoulder straps or a vest-like harness to the "C-Clamp"
For input, just have the subject in a mo-cap suit (or something equivalent- tracking devices at key joints is what we are looking for to notice body position). This is where things get tricky, as there is no direct input(such as in the exoskeleton ideas) to say where the body is. But if your software can recognize traditional movements (i'm assuming there is enough mo-capped walking to determine some patterns, or enough testing could be done to provide it)), then the software can also recognize the speed at which things are done, allowing for this to be input into the virtual realm.
I believe this would also allow for vertical movement such as climbing stairs, or a ladder as well.
The only problem I could see (at the moment is that some people may not react well to being hoisted oof the ground, as there is no 'rest' position, just a 'hanging' position. If you add the 'mesh of bearings' idea on the floor beneath them, but DON'T use it as an input device, just support, it could work.
Just my thoughts...
Nice Idea,but... (Score:1)
checkout ken perlin (Score:1)
Re:Problem of acceleration (Score:2)
Fool the sense of balance (Score:2)
What about some sort of mechanism to slightly fool the inner ear? This would cause the user to (unconciously hopefully) list to one side keeping them inside a fixed area...if we combined this with a mildly sloping floor it might be used to good effect. The difficulty hear is of course to fool the inner ear without having to stick needles in their or anything.
Has anyone done any research into what happens when the image presented to the user is slightly tilted from the angle expected by the tilt of their head? Do they walk differntly?
A sort of simple proof of concept of this idea is to put yourself in a large room close your eyes and try to walk straight across...extremly difficult to do! Imagine if you were being actively fooled!
Exo-skeleton (Score:1)
Someone strapped into such a suit suspended in the air by the waist and feet by light-weight arms could provide environment interaction
Hitting a wall would lock up your arm when your fist reaches the wall. Walking up stairs would lock up the suit for each step you take.
The suit could use hydrolics to for the feedback and the whole inner-ear motion thing can be partially overcome through the careful maintaining of motion by the structure. Motion CHANGES are noticed by the inner ear but after you have stopped accelerating your inner reestablished its equilibrium and it seems as though you're not moving. This can be used to fool the ear into thinking you're moving when you're not and vice versa to keep you in the one spot.
Trackball (Score:1)
Re:Exo-skeleton (Score:1)
In effect you are walking on giant metalic hands which always sloightly pull you back to the origin preventing you from ever hitting anything.
Re:dont laugh (Score:5)
Re:Exo-skeleton (Score:1)
Inner ear sense of acceleration (Score:3)
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why ? (Score:1)
Some related work (Score:4)
Direct Neural Interface (Score:1)
The problem with simulating our world via mechanical methods is that the only available simulator that can recreate every experience is...the world itself. And the world is an enormously crappy simulator; my teledildonics programs never seem to work right...
Re:SQUID Sensors - does your brain like it? (Score:2)
alex
Hamster ball! Hamster ball! Hamster ball! (Score:1)
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GCS/GM/GMU/GS/GO
d- s+:++ a---- C++ UL++>+++ P++(+++) L+++ E--- W+ N++ w---
use the ring thing and add a trackball platform (Score:1)
Collecting ideas. (Score:1)
Cyclotron (Score:1)
Its gonna be a hell lot of wires though to get entangled in.
************************************************ ***
Disclosure (Score:1)
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction
Re:Hybrid Solution (Score:1)
Or was that me?
The Jimeroqui' Video (Score:2)
Ok, now change the room to a 1/2 sphere (dome) that the user is inside of. One small camera/sensor, above the user in the sphere, looks down at the user and sends signals to 4 wheels on the outside of the 1/2 sphere. When the user walks right, the dome moves with him. The user can now walk normaly all over the warhouse, and the sphere covers him at all times.
The dome (acually made of a rear-projection material) would be covered with DLP projectors (Like people use in buisness presentations). Each projector would be responsible for a small area of the total picture (1280x1027). The projected image would be proccessed digitaly before being projected, so that the final result aprears flat to the user inside the dome.
The noise made my the servo motors moving the dome would be cancled by the 3D sound system positioned around the outside of the dome and noise canceling technology.
Forget the Input Device! Track the Feet! (Score:4)
You're approaching it from the wrong direction. "Think outside the box", dude.
Don't build a user input device. Model the leg's motion directly!
Here's what I see you trying to do now: through a "natural" walking process, you want to have the walker's feet create a change in some input device (much as a hand creates a change in a mouse or keyboard or joystic). Then you measure the change in the input device and convert that to a model of motion.
But you're sticking in an extra (and probably unnecessary) layer of abstraction: Information about legs' movement CONVERTED TO Information about input device movement CONVERTED TO virtual model of legs' movement.
Input devices makes sense in modeling vehicular movement. For example, in modeling driving a car, you don't really care about the motion of the hand itself; you care about the motion of the steering wheel. (The fact that a human hand is guiding the steering wheel is irrelevant. From the standpoint of modeling the vehicular motion, it could just as easily be a monkey or a computer moving the steering wheel for all you care.)
A steering wheel becomes the input device to control a virtual vehicle, because in the real world it ALREADY IS the input device used to control the vehicle.
Input devices don't make sense in modeling movement of the human body. In modeling walking, you care about the motion of the feet -- their direction, the length of the gait, etc.
In the real world, what is the input device that is used to control the motion of the feet? THE LEGS!!!
Try this: Information about legs' movement CONVERTED TO virtual model of legs' movement.
Gets rid of the input device.
My idea: Instead of trying to measure the rotation of hundreds of spinning bearings, measure the motion of the legs in relation to a fixed point. (Actually, all you probably really need to know is the location of the footfall, so you probably only need to measure a couple points on the foot in relation to that fixed point.)
How? The simplest example I can think of off the top of my head is kinesthetic analysis of athletes, like for golf swing analysis. The golfer and the club are covered with a series of white dots, typically at each joint, and is digitally filmed swinging the club. A computer analyzes the digital video, recognizes the dots, and uses them to construct a wire frame figure in a virtual space that can then be analyzed. It's used not just in golf, but in many sports as well. It's also used in dance!! I've heard of several dance projects out there that are attempting to use the human body itself as the interface to control or model a virtual dancer.
If you want to model the motion of a jet fighter, who do you go talk to? An aeronautical engineer! Why? Because that's the person who is going to know most about how a jet fighter moves and how that motion is controlled.
If you want to model the motion of a human body, who do you go talk to? Either an athlete or a dancer (or someone who studies athletes or dancers)! Why? Because they're the people who are going to know the most about how a human body moves and how that motion is controlled.
So maybe you have dots on their feet and a camera trained on their feet, a computer watching the dots, crunching the numbers to model the motion of the feet, and passing their location onto the VR modeling system. Maybe you have a super accurate GPS system (or just some kind of very localized version of a positioning system) that sends back the specific location of the feet to the VR modeling system. If you know the how the feet's movement is changing in relation to a fixed point, then you know the direction of the walk, the speed of the gait, etc.
You still need to decide how the subject (the real subject, not the VR avatar) interacts with the real environment while immersed. Probably the *easiest* way is to give the subject plenty of room to maneuver. Put them in an airplane hanger with a VR headset on. Let them move around to their heart's content in the hanger, model the motion of their feet (and hands! and head direction!) and build the virtual world around them as appropriate, based on that motion. It would look funny from the outside -- a couple of soldiers in headsets wandering around a hanger. But from inside the VR they might be in downtown Beirut or wherever.
With that plan, you *will* run into physical limits -- it would be possible for them to bump into the hanger wall. If you don't need an infinite virtual space, then big deal. If you do . . . eh, you might be able to do the "large room/visual tricks" option to make them change direction. Howver, that's probably too complex, I think.
If you need an infinite VR space, you might need to put them on that 2D mesh of ball bearings, so they can "walk without going anyplace." (You just have to make sure there's enough ball bearing friction that the subject doesn't fall on his ass!)
You don't need to measure the motion of any of the ball bearings. Just ignore the ball bearings. The ball bearings are just the foot's medium of motion. If you want to model head motion or hand motion, you don't try to track the displacement of all the air molecules around the head or hand! No, you track the motion of the head and hand itself in relation to a fixed point. Then why try to track the displacement of the "ground" (aka ball bearings) beneath the feet!!?? If you know how the feet are moving in relation to a fixed point, then you can use that information to model the virtual motion.
TRACK THE FEET, DUDE!
--
fixion
fixion@yahoo.com
P.S. Two minutes searching the Web netted me these links:
Peak Performance, Inc. (http://www.peakperform.com/) has a product called Mocap that captures 2D & 3D motion coordinates with real-time optical sensors. Found via a search for sports technology and biomechanics.
VNSIII (http://www.interlog.com/~drokeby/vnsII.html) allows you to respond and analyze motion information captured in real-time. Found via a search for "dance and technology."
and the kicker:
Whole Body Kinesthetic Displays (http://www.cybernet.com/rnd/contracts/contractbr
Translation: US Army beat ya Canadians to it, dude!
And that's just, like, the first three promising ones I came across!
Well, a hybrid of sorts. (Score:1)
insert your favorite sig here, because i don't want to
Use your computer and your Johnson... (Score:1)
If the answer was easy, someone would have solved this already.
Paul Hostetler
Boots and gloves (Score:1)
Crystalized Gas (Score:1)
Hmmm (Score:2)
--
Re:Two robot arms (Score:1)
If response time is fast enough I think it could work.
And as for response time, you might need to back away from one central processor controlling the whole aparatus, instead using seperate processors in each robot arm feeding results as high level messages to the central processor.
Re:slippery semispherical arena (Score:1)
>shoe with a relatively slippery sole and be laced
>inside the bottom third (give or take) of a
>sphere made of plastic or some suitably slippery
>substance.
The problem I see with this and most of the other solutions is ballence. Have you actulay ever tried walking on a slippery floor? You _SLIP_ (imagine that) and _FALL_. Unless you add some rather significant resistance to the berings in the proposed meshes you will have the same problem. Your feet will go flying out from under you if you try to put any significant ammount of pressure on them, causing you to adopt a new way of movement to avoid that (at which point the whole discussion is null and void again). The idea is to make this as close to reality as possible.
-nathe
Re:Dream it! The ultimate VR sim (Score:1)
ready to puke his guts out in the name of science,
-nathe
joystick? (Score:1)
Re:The Jimeroqui' Video (Score:2)
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re:Why ? (Score:2)
(I mean, if you can get virtual walking-- who's to say we can't do virtual rock climbing?)
For the most part, I would think that this would have to be limited to practicing dangerous activities that aren't dependant upon dynmaics due to the human body -- I mean, the speed at which you rotate in gymnastics/diving/ski jumping/etc is based on the size of each limb in an individual's body, and it's relative position to your center of mass.
Of course, as with anything else, you'd have to decide if the cost to develop the program would offset the risks associated with performing the actions in real life.
Otherwise, you'd have to have it developed by someone who knows they'll be able to recoup their money within an acceptable period of time, which would most likely be the entertainment industry.
(Although, I'm guessing that any 'interactive movies' would have to be more like Dragon's Lair than anything else, which wouldn't really depend on this topic, as you're forced to take one of a limited choice of paths)
Re:Dont let the feet touch the ground.. (Score:2)
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Looking at it from the wrong angle. (Score:2)
the user is suspended an inch or two off the ground by an immobile waist or hip harness (the user doesn't change direction. the VR world rotates around him. like in doom, quake, etc) with positional sensors on shoulders, elbows, hands, head, knees for directional orientation of the various body parts. I mean the kind of sensors they use to input dance steps, martial arts motions.
the feet would be in a sort of stirrup which is connected to positional sensors AS WELL AS a force feedback system. this would be used to translate the user's natural walking motions into directional input, and the force feedback would simulate the additional force required to climb, etc.
Of course, this has the drawback of the vertical orientation problem (you would always know that your body is vertical, even if you "fall" in the sim, unless we find a way to monkey around with your inner-ear), but as far as arbitrary movement in a 2d-with-incline world or climbing rocks and ladders, it should solve the problem nicely. or at least adequately. There still would be no sense of inertia.
Nice setup for a Mortal Kombat type game, right? hehe
What do you guys think?
I guess I'll have to break the news
that I've got no mind to lose...
I guess I'm gonna have to tell 'em
That I've got no cerebellum
Re:use the ring thing and add a trackball platform (Score:2)
----------------
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein
Re:hmmm (Score:2)
Motion sickness? (Score:2)
Very interesting. Would that mean that prolonged use might cause motion sickness? That's what causes motion sickness, after all - different sensory inputs not agreeing with each other. The brain gets confused, and you feel sick.
Re:hmmm (Score:2)
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re:Forget the Input Device! Track the Feet! (Score:2)
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re:Motion sickness? (Score:2)
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re:The VR games I've seen... (Score:2)
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re:hmmm (Score:2)
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hybrid bearings/ringed/tensor solution... (Score:2)
After this, it would be nice to simulate slipping or even difficulty in running. Therefore the rollers used to detect motion in the bearings could have some motors attached to them to provide graduated tension to the ball bearings (climbing up an icy landscape vs. climbing up a rocky hill).
Now, we need to tackle 3D issues. First of all, the structure will likely need to be larger than 5 feet in diameter to provide a decent "feel" for realism - taking into account the length of stride for a long person (or someone with unusually long legs). Then, the entire bed of bearings (BoB) should be rotatable to 55 degrees (at least) for mountainous climbing simulations, etc...
Taking this into account, how do we simulate steps, curbs, etc? Well, we could seperate the ball bearings into seperate rings around the player. the rings could be raised individually (or set to rotate individually) using foot high pillars on hydraulics designed to move up and down, and sense the weight (and respond stiffly - as in conrete steps; or softly - as in a muddy marsh) to the person's weight.
What's left? player positioning without using wires. Well, they're now selling little gyroscopic options for N64 (?) controllers to allow you to play without having to use the control sticks or pads. So rotation isn't an issue... Magnets could do the rest for positioning. A few devices like this attached to key points on the body will allow you to tell exactly where the various body parts are (one on each elbow, knee, each end of the waist, etc).
$300k for one of these things maybe?
Next week: I solve world hunger.
Re:Looking at it from the wrong angle. (Score:2)
This is exactly what I was thinking. If flight simulators can mount a cabin on movable struts, why not just attach the struts right to the arms and legs of your player?
I'm thinking more of robotic arms than hydraulic pistons, of course. The person stands in boots that are attached to the end of two robotic arms, and then slips his/her arms into something similar (gotta simulate gun recoil and crawling...). Maybe have a fifth arm on a tight backpack that the players wear, just so you can mess with (and read motions of, not to mention support) the torso, and then maybe mount the whole thing on powered gimbals, so you can have 'em do a simulated faceplant, hanging there three feet off the floor, should the simulation demand it.
So, now you've basically strapped a person into this multi-armed contraption, with their various extremities individually supported and controlled. "All" that's left is to work out the force-feedback system so that they can walk realistically -- as the foot "hits the ground," the arm stops moving. As the foot is raised, the system freely allows that movement (possibly assisting it, to hide the fact that there's this giant steel arm strapped to your foot). As you walk forward, the arm lets you slide your foot back on a flat plane, to simulate the ground moving beneath your foot. Irregularities in the surface can be simulated by changing the height of the "ground" and angle at which the foot "rests". You can do stairs; mud can be simulated with "mushy" feedback.
Some problems:
Re:hmmm (Score:2)
Re:Looking at it from the wrong angle. (Score:2)
"Please do not spindle or mutilate."
ken_i_m
Mesh + sensors (Score:2)
How a mesh and harness simply to allow the feet to move and keep the person from falling. The actual movement is computed based on LEDs on their shoes + a switch in the soles to signal when they are actually applying pressure.
Baby Walker (Score:3)
Perhaps you could have the person supported on an item that could be dragged back to the center of the room without their knowledge. That way they can walk in any direction and never hit a wall. When they come near a real wall, the user is visually prompted to raise up his/her feet so that the mechanism can return to the base.
There are a few disadvantages though, like having to build the thing to hide the acceleration back to base. Also, the lifting of the feet could be troublesome.
-B
here's my $0.02 (Score:2)
Re:A few suggestions (Score:2)
Those are interesting suggestions, but the harness idea (mentioned elsewhere as well) has the problem of the feeling of opposing force (also mentioned elsewhere). If your legs are dangling, it's going to feel like your legs are dangling, not like they are touching the ground at every step. It is going to feel almost the same as fake walking. To increase the complexity (but since some outrageously complex ideas have been proposed, it seems that complexity doesn't matter so long as it works) and realism, why not have some line actually be the ground? And to maintain the ground level in a crouch or in a landing after a jump, the harness should be held up by movable wires that could change the vertical position. In general the wires would be relaxed so that the used could "walk" on the "ground", but as the user left the middle of the device, the wires would gently pull him/her back to the middle. Going along with that is that the "ground" be made up of a bunch of movable rod-like things that could approximate uneven terrain by moving up and down. The ground would be covered by stretched plastic to even it out. Then when the user was wandering away from the middle of the device and the wires were pulling him/her back, the rods could tilt slightly back toward the middle so that the natural thing to do would be to go back a little bit. If the plastic was just slippery enough, the pulling back could be accomplished without the user knowing. Of course the whole system would have to be intellegent to allow for the initial acceleration forces felt when beginning to move or stopping. This could be accomplished by delaying the pull-back as much as possible in the necessary circumstances. This seems really complicated, but most everything proposed is, and with today's fast processors, the complexity can be dealt with. This solution also better accounts for response time because most of the actual movement such as jumping, crouching, or walking is left to physics (which is the fastest processor I've ever seen), and the things the computer has to worry about is the compensation, most of which is repetitive (pulling back mostly the same amount while walking) and thus can be optimized with local, less powerful processors. The only really hard things are dealing with sudden motions, such as when you stop running. However, the delayed response time would approximate inertia in this case, adding to the realism.
The only problems I can see with this approach are common to most every approach. First, it would be a pain in the butt to get into because of all the wires and sensors and stuff, so it probably wouldn't work for a public video game arcade kind of situation, and it wouldn't be able to deal with bending over very well. Having a harness could also allow for (but not accurately simulate, nothing proposed can) jumping off of a high ledge in a game where such a thing can't really hurt you (like a lot of them). It would also allow for the simulation of some other thing moving them around, like hitting a wall could cause an abrupt force backwards, and you could approximate the up-and-down forces of, say, a ski lift. It would be enormously flexable.
But it would be (also like most other things) prohibitively expensive.
Come to think about it, this sort of resembles how Star Trek NG did it on the holodecks, execpt it was a force field that pulled them back towards the middle of the simulator instead of a harness and cables. They called it a treadmill force field or something like that, except that it couldn't have really shared that much with a treadmill because treadmills only go in one direction.
Anyway, why bother in the first place? VR is always going to be virtual, and that means that there will have to be some restrictions. Besides, vehicles are more fun anyway; you get to go faster.
Kenneth
PS - What's wrong with the real thing? And what were you doing on Slashdot at 6:42 in the morning? I was sleeping :-|____.
Re:Dream it! The ultimate VR sim (Score:2)
You forgot one: blowing up the world! I've done that.
Of course, there is the problem with realisticly simulating going to the bathroom... oops!
cya, Ken
Re:mesh of bearings (Score:2)
use some kind of boot or sensor to determine what the foot is doing--this allows significantly more interaction with the environment, as movement in three dimensions can be measured--in other words you can kick something, or march, or whatever, and it will be reflected in the simulation.
maybe I am just missing something, but it seems like you would like to model all of the bodies movement within the simulation---I keep thinking of the sword fighting in SnowCrash
nausea (Score:2)
feeling like walking"
The brain would get confused fast. It is giving
signal to walk, it sees the motion of walking
but...the inner ear isn't detecting motion.
When the inner ear and brain loose sync...the
natural reaction is to begin "Stomac pump
procedue".
I had an interesting discussion about this with
someone onece. It apears that this may be an
evolutionary "Defence mechanism". Loss of
proper signal from the inner ear can often be
caused by certain chemicals, say the chemicals
in an amniata muscaria mushroom (big red caps)
or something in the nightshade fammily (other
than tomatoes)
Basically the idea goes that the brain stops
getting the right signals from the inner ear
so as a defence it induces vomitting so that if
this was caused by some poison, it may stop
absorbtion of the rest of it.
(which is why nausea is very common with alot of
drugs)
anyway...I would think that ALOT of people would
react very badly to any such setup.
I have... (Score:2)
Damn... (Score:2)
Re:hmmm (Score:2)
Gyroscopes (Score:2)
I work with the software for VR systems. So far, this idea seems to have the most promise, although I have not yet personally had a chance to work with it. But short of full neural interface, this is as close to real as we will get.
The best solution is to combine stilts and wires (Score:2)
Have the person wear a suit that is suspended by wires. The wires would both provide lift (to keep the person upright) and register joint motion (bending and turning).
The foot would be placed in a cradle that has a stilt attached to both the ball and heel of the foot. The tips of the stilts would have ball and socket connections to allow for free rotation. The stilts will be connected by cross-braces to allow for tilt and pitch.
Servos would either apply resistance to provide lift and simulate contact. When the program calculated the foot had hit ground, the servo would apply enough force to prevent the foot from moving any lower. When the person lifted his or her foot (detected by weight sensors in the foot cradle) the serve would feed enough force to counter the weight of the device.
With enough tuning, this system could be configured to feel just like a pair of combat boots. It would also have an extra advantage: terrain. You can't simulate changes in terrain with bearing meshes and spheres. This means you've gone from a situation where you can only simulate combat vehicles to a situation where you can only simulate building combat.
With the stilt system, each foot have have separate heights. Even if it were pitch black, the user could feel his way around with just his feet. If the user were at the edge of a cliff, he would put his foot in front of him and find that the servos give no support whatsoever.
Anyway, I doubt this would be practical enough that Logitech could come out with a home version, but in cases where money is no object, it is very doable. Still, I think it is rather obvious. If it isn't already patented well...oops. I guess now it will be. =P
- JoeShmoe
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Unnecesary Corrollary (Score:2)
If you are skeptical of what I just said, try this experiment for 1 month: Once a day, for 5 minutes (while wating for the TV commercials to end) *PUSH* up through the center of your palm. Nothing will happen that is visible to you, but the nerve association/muscle feedback will build this activity up as a task in your mind, and you will be able to actualy feel the difference between doing and not doing this task. That difference is detectable, and that is how squid inputs are designed.
So imagine an input system that allowed you to direct your movement by pointing in an arbitrary direction, with speed/direction rendered analog by a squid glove. (THink about the way you move in your dreams) Or even using a cranial ring (try the above experiment with pushing forward/back/left/right with the top of your head.
Talk about intuitive, but it does take about 15 minutes before you can get good input from such a system (the first time) but the long term (a day or two) finnese reachable beats hell out all other input devices.
-Crutcher
-Crutcher
Re:Some related work (Score:3)
Re:Dream it! The ultimate VR sim (Score:2)
Anyway, that night when I went to bed, I could still see race tracks turning, dipping, and zooming by while I had my eyes closed. The same thing happened in my dreams that night.
--
Re:Dream it! The ultimate VR sim (Score:2)
As I gained more power over my dreams, the dreams changed accordingly... I became able to confront the monster, until in one dream I tricked the grandfather clock into eating itself. I stopped having those dreams after that, and when I looked at the clock in real life it wasn't scary anymore. I've dreamed very infrequently, and remembered even less, since then.
Now I kind of wish that hadn't happened, after hearing you describe all the cool stuff you can do in your dreams. Oh well.
--
Re:Radial Moving Sidewalk (Score:2)
--
Re:Damn... (Score:2)
Because they don't do anything. Your static while the the "sphere" rotates you along two axes simultaneously. Since your rotating in two directions you don't get disoriented. (I know I went to Space Camp [spacecamp.com]. The idea is just to ride it, not to stop it like they say in that sucky movie [imdb.com].)
Re:SQUID Sensors - does your brain like it? (Score:2)
I know exactly what you mean - there was an article on slashdot that talked about it. Perhaps you missed the bit that explained that it was satire. NO ONE actually lost their ability to write. The article's author made it up. It was humor.
OK, maybe you're being funny, too, but I just got to work on Monday morning and am still humor-impaired...
Re:slippery semispherical arena (Score:2)