What Software Should ISPs Distribute and Support? 338
BroadbandBradley asks: "Many ISPs give their customers a software package to install with their service like a branded browser/email package. Some also include network diagnostics tools, even remote connection VNC packages for technical reps to do remote support. The ISP will then tell customer that they'll only get help if they're using that package. What features are good or bad, and what should or shouldn't be included on the client side? My question to Slashdot readers is, what software and services should ISPs distribute and support?"
Software (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Software (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Software (Score:2)
Re:Software (Score:5, Funny)
Monkey: Very well sir, what version of Internet Explorer are you running?
Customer: I'm not using IE, I'm using Mozilla.
Monkey: Mozilla? (pause) Well, in any case, open up IE.
Customer: I don't have IE installed. I'm running Linux.
Monkey: I'm sorry, sir, we only support Windows.
Customer: I just want to know what if the problem is with my modem or with your server, that's all. It shouldn't matter what OS I'm using.
Monkey: I'm sorry, sir, but you'll have to be running Windows in order for us to determine that.
Customer: (Decides that lying would be easier) Ok, let me switch to my other computer. It's running WindowsMe. (pauses for a few seconds, loads Mozilla, then: ) Ok, I'm at my other computer. And I have IE open.
Monkey: Very good sir. Now, do you have a second line that you can use?
Customer: (lies again) Yes. Should I connect now?
Monkey: Yes.
Customer: Ok, I'm connected, but I can't load any web sites.
Monkey: Try... (gives ISP's web page)
Customer: Nope, that didn't work. Nothing is showing up, and the little network icon in the toolbar doesn't show any activity, either.
Monkey: Sounds like a problem with IE. Try rebooting and then see if that doesn't fix the problem.
Customer: But it's not just IE! It doesn't work on my Linux computer, either!
Monkey: Maybe you need to reboot Linux, too, sir.
Any resemblence to any person, living or dead, is strictly coincidental, due to the high numbers of incompetent telephone monkeys in the world.
:Peter
Re:Software (Score:4, Funny)
Did you try rebooting Linux? I have Linux 7.2 and this usually works for me.
Re:Software (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Software (Score:2)
Except that the problem is that if you arn't running a very specific set of software it can be impossible to convince them that there might be a problem at there end.
Re:Software (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, tech support reps are monkeys. Stories of their blatant monkeyness abound, each more amusing than the last. Ha ha.
But. For just a second here, put yourself in the monkeysuit. You make $8/hr, and your work schedule is such that you're manning the phones every friday and saturday night until 2 AM. You are disrespected nearly every single time you answer the phone, and nearly every time you open a new company memo. This same company forgets you exist until it's time to issue new limits on call handle times or to revise the rules on what you are and aren't allowed to rightfully blame on the network, and the exact phrases you're allowed to use to do so. You go home at night, and bury yourself in o'reilly books and term windows until you figure out that obscure sendmail configuration, sniff your lan packets until you can practically read your email in hex, and study RFCs until your eyes cross, just for the love of the ideas and the technology. Then, the next day, you go back to work...and nothing you did matters. You're still disrespected from both directions. You still have no chance of promotion and, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, no real job skills. You're still a monkey.
Now, parlay that feeling into a willingness to violate company policy (which could well get you terminated, and then it's back to the QuickStop to sling lotto tickets at minimum wage) to support some smartass know-it-all (remember, tone of voice is everything...) who wants you to drag every single detail out of him, and then lies to you about what's happening on his end.
Not easy, is it?
Mod however you want. I'm just sick of the cheap shots. And gimme my damn banana.
Re:Software (Score:4, Insightful)
In my house, I have 5 computers, my main computer is a win2K workstation, 2 kids have Macs, I have a linux server, and my wife uses Win2K workstation as well to do work.
They're all nat'd through a linksys firewall/gateway.
And when you call the monkey (as you call him/her), they refuse to help unless you are running their spyware on a Windows box and if you say you have a firewall, that's basically the end of the support.
Now, you KNOW the problem is on their end, and you also KNOW that the 1st level support doesn't know squat about network status. So my strategy is to lie to them to get to 2nd level. But 2nd level guys are nice, they have a clue, but the company won't tell them dick about network status.
meanwhile nobody will fucking help you because they keep telling you to reboot your PC and play with your TCP/IP stack. Never mind that it worked an hour ago, these guys don't want to know it, and they tell you politely, "sorry sir, I can't tell you anymore", and they really mean it!
So as a consumer, what the FUCK do you expect me to do. My asscheeck are spreadwide, I no longer have any dignity, no chance of help from the fucking cable company, the fucking telco is such a fucking monopolist that they refuse to do DSL unless you're fucking jessus christ of nazareth. So you're stuck. And you're paying. And no one can help you. And then you tell me, "pity the 1st line tech, they're doing all they can do".
Maybe, but they're my link to the company, and I have nothing else to try.
Sorry, but that's the state of the world.
Re:Software (Score:2)
Because 99% of the time the problem is the user.
And the other 99% of the time it *is* Windows.
For every day we have a hardware failure our our upstream provider screws up their DNS, there are 363 that the problem is not with the ISP (your mileage may vary with larger ISPs)
Re:Software (Score:4, Informative)
You know, I used to work tech support, and I realize that this sort of stuff goes on. But, IMO, if your computer savvy enough to know what's going on, then you shouldn't be calling tech support unless you know it's their problem. Tech support is for the computer dummies. The NOC is for computer geeks. And if they won't escalate your call after relaizing that you're more competent than them, you need to switch ISP's. My god, man...it's a dial-up account. Not broadband. You do have a choice.
As an aside, it's usually pretty easy to get the NOC's number. Just call up the switchboard and ask. If that doesn't work, call up and say you're with a local networking outfit and need the NOC. If the NOC thinks I'm full of shit, then they're free to push me thru tech support. Of course, I only call the NOC when I've gone through the troubleshooting to prove that it's their end, and after a reasonable amount of downtime has elapsed...no need to pull one of them away from the downed router so I can let them know their router is down.
The Monkeys Have Taken Over.... (Score:2, Informative)
If you ever have to call qwest, immediately ask to talk to Tier 1.5 and don't let them talk you out of it or tell you they don't exist...
Linux Experience-
Tier 1(the main people)-2% (at most)
Tier 1.5-probably 50%
Competience
Tier 1-40%
Tier 1.5-95% (Ben is the best over there)
........
To answer the question, though, Qwest only Supports IE 5.x, Netscape 4.x, Win>=95, Mac OS >=8 != X.
---------------------
I have heard horror stories and taken calls where the customer has had techs worst than the customer...
Caller-"I don't seem to have hyperterminal"
Tech-"I am sorry sir, you will have to reinstall Windows"
!
This was in the case notes for a caller...
"
OS:Windows Lynux....
ISSUE:told caller that I would not support him
TROUBLESHOOTING:told caller that I would not support him
RESOLUTION:told caller that I would not support him
"
!
...and more case notes...
"
...
EMAIL:Eudora
ISSUE:caller wants pop servers
TROUBLESHOOTING:told him that we would not give them to him because we don't support Eudora
....
"
!
I loved it when I was listening to calls during training and I heard a tech say..."What is Linux". The problem is, is that many of the techs at our place are either >50 yrs old or ex-cons on work release. Many only come to get the training. The first week of training is horrible, the first lesson was on how to double click.
You aren't the only linux user to do that. I had a guy that claims he was using windows 95...
Me-"Ok, what do you see in that control panel"
Caller-"Umm...I don't know"
Me-"Just read it off"
Caller-"Ok, I am using Linux, I know you don't support it, so I guess I will had to get windows on here"
Me-"JNo, Its OK, you should have told me..."
If anyone wants, I will throw up a webpage with complete case notes of junk like this...just email me.
FYI...I will support any OS, I have even had FreeBSD.
Re:Software (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:dell monkeys (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Software (Score:2)
We've also come up with a certain number of phrases to accurately describe certain customers. "Chronic Clue Vacuum Disease" is when they just plain can't get it even though you explain it to them a thousand times. "PEBKAC" is an acronym we use for "Problem Exists Between Keyboard and Chair" (you figure it out). And so on. Our latest is "Twelve o'clock flasher" which originated from the piece "Welcome to the Internet Helpdesk [mp3s.com]" which is available on mp3.com. Trust me, if you've ever dealt with the average internet customer, you want to listen to this and be prepared to be Rolling on the floor laughing.
To try to get back to the original poster's question, we use a CD which some company sells which has all the normal stuff on it - browser, email, etc. There are several companies out there which basically burn a CD with everything on it and have a automatic configurator which configures the customer's computer.
As far as what to support, generally we support all of the common web and email clients, and a couple of other select programs. If you have Netscape, IE, Outlook/Outlook Express, Pegasus mail, etc. we can help. Anything beyond the normal, then the customer is on their own. Generally we'll help to the point of "Ok, both Internet Exporer and Netscape works. I'm not sure why Opera won't work and we don't have that here to walk you through it".
That said, we're probably one of the unusual outfits which will at least try to help you with about any OS and/or software you want to use. We're a FreeBSD shop. The assistant sysadmin runs OpenBSD at home. Linux is probably our biggest hole, but we generally can provide enough information for someone to get Linux to work, and we do have people around who work with linux. Macs are another hole, but again, we can usually help someone through getting one on. And of course (unfortunately) we're well versed with getting Windows Machines on the net.
Re:Software (Score:2)
The smartest way to slash tech support costs is to stop supporting IE. "I'm sorry, sir. IE is a buggy piece of software unnecessarily embedded in an even more bug-ridden operating system. We do not have the source code to either, and cannot be expected to know of, much less be able to fix all of their problems. Please call the vendor that sold you the software. If they can't support what they sold you, consider returning it and trying a different browser."
Re:Software (Score:2)
Most of the problem appears to be overloading the idea of "support". To include supporting some software the ISP supplies, support with the services the ISP supplies and reporting of faults.
Maybe ISP's should get out of the software business all together and try and operate more like telephone companies.
VNC ? (Score:4, Funny)
Ha ! A can opener in a can !
Re:VNC ? (Score:3, Informative)
It may be usefull if the user can connect but isn't able to figure out how to configure their mail/news/IM client.
Don't take this the wrong way, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
the answer is "only products that you have researched and are familiar with". That means that the software is well documented and that you have links to known bugs & other issues. It helps if you have an inside person in that company too. Keep a knowledge base for your employees to eliminate redundant wild goose chases.
On a side note, you must be pretty brave to be starting a business in a saturated market during an economic downturn. Know something we don't? Most ISPs have already been absorbed by the national chains (AOL, Yahoo, etc...). Good luck.
Re:Don't take this the wrong way, but... (Score:2)
I really like this ISP precisely because they provide such excellent support, and won't just hang up on me if they hear that I'm not using the latest Redmond-approved OS. Obviously, there are times when they have to tell people that they can't possibly support every possible CPE configuration, but they make a strong effort to help the technically clued even when they may not be using 100%-standard software. This type of effort distinguishes them from their competitors and has earned them my business. I won't hold it against ISPs who will only support a small number of standard configurations, because I understand what's needed to go beyond that, but I also won't do business with them.
Re:Don't take this the wrong way, but... (Score:2)
it's got IE and Outlook Express, as well as some customer self support tools that are supposed to be able to resetup everything automatically
IE being a "part of windows" more and more the supported browser gets us hunting down OS issues, which sucks for us.
we used to use a Netscape package, which is a program you can actually remove from the system and reinstall when it wasn't working well. IE doesn't really let you do that (anymore).
I'm thinking Mozilla is looking more and more like a good option, not only because it leaves the OS alone, but also the UI consistency between Windows, Macintosh, and Linux. (we don't support Linux YET but I'm sure someday soon we'll have to)
right now walking a user through options in IE on Windows and IE on a MAC are totally different!! same thing goes for the outlook express packages.
Although it's not up to me where I work, I want to compile a list and put together a nice package/proposal and see if I can't tip the scales, and make my life easier.
the essentials (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:the essentials (Score:2)
So, then that would be...no software? Right? All modern OS's include a PPP client. Windows 95b and later, and most Linux distros include a browser. With a browser, it's trivial to get an FTP client. Even without a browser, there's always CLI FTP. The only thing that would fit in your description would be PPPoE software, if the ISP requires it.
Re:the essentials (Score:2)
This is a pretty stupid question. (Score:5, Interesting)
Go ahead and mod me down for being a troll or offtopic, but take a look at the other posts here. They prove that the question was dumb to begin with.
To be more explicit, this question is unanswerable in its current form. More information is needed:
What user base are you going after? Linux users? Windows users? What OSes are you going to support? What does your technical support organization look like? Are you gunning for experienced surfers? Total newbies?
Re:This is a pretty stupid question. (Score:3, Informative)
beyond that, IE runs into lots of other issues with adware, and changing the OS around when you upgrade...it makes big waves.
I'm just wondering what other ISP's use and what kind of issues they've run into.
Re:No user-base at all (Score:2)
This would be a serious problem for a low-margin business like an ISP. Newbies are exactly the kind of user who'd call in with stupid questions (the "how do I use this?" sort). It doesn't take long for a support call to eat up the profit on a $20/mo account. OTOH tech saavy users are more likely to figure it out themselves and not call unless there really is a problem with the ISP.
There's an idea... (Score:2)
Re:There's an idea... (Score:5, Interesting)
You must mean like this [flex.com] one. Selected quotes:
Re:There's an idea... (Score:2)
I'll check their list of dialup numbers, and if they cover the areas I travel to most frequently, Mindspring* loses a customer and flex.net gains one.
- Robin
*I was a Primenet customer since the earliest days of the public Internet. Primenet got bought by Mindspring. I stuck with Mindspring because a bug in their system allowed 2 or more simultaneous connections on the same account at no extra charge. They have now fixed this bug, and indeed are charging amazingly huge amounts (over $100 last month!) for multiple connections, so I see no reason to stay with them.
What tech support? (Score:2)
The ISP will then tell customer that they'll only get help if they're using that package.
This isn't a real big help. I have found that most times I know more about the ISP's network than the average support rep does.Re:What tech support? (Score:3, Interesting)
:Peter
Re:What tech support? (Score:2)
So what would you tell someone when you have to take a pee.
Stupid comment on a slow day, which I would preffer to spend at home, rather than reading a lame story posted on slashdot on easter friday which happens to be a very slow day?....Did I mention slow....oh yeah I did.
Re:What tech support? (Score:3, Interesting)
Bwahhahahaha...
Oh, man, you are so deluded.
Do you know where the people who really, *really* know how to do tech support go to?
The answer is: Ding! Anywhere but tech support. Because tech support work blows, period. It's like working the fry line at McDonalds - once you've grown beyond the ability to do fries, you do whatever it takes to get out of having to do it. Like programming, sysadmin, or even nothing to do with computers at all.
In other words, the people who would make fantastic tech support people get away from tech support, because those very skills lend themselves to (one hopes) better employment, better pay, and less shackling to a phone line talking to dips who think they know more than you. What do you end up with after they all go away? The dregs. Hence, your problem.
Besides, the average geek should be able to track down whatever knowledge he needs without having to ask some anonymous person on the phone.
Most tech support people I know started out as curious geeks, and only became tech support because they found a job where they could get paid for their obscure knowledge. I was one of those guys, and I will never, never, never do tech support again. Ditto for the fry line.
GMFTatsujin
Re:What tech support? (Score:4, Insightful)
Since I used to be the lead tech for my current ISP, I'm definately in the same boat. (Its not unusual that I call tech support to check on something for a mutual customer, and have the ISP's tech as me what command he should run on their server!)
The arguement that I've had over and over again with technically minded friends who haven't done phone support (supporting your company's employees is quite different) is that there is a tough mental transition that has to happen when you get a clueful person on the phone after dealing with "how do I set up my computer to call the internet" type calls. Its tough to suddenly go from step-by-step instructions and building the new user's confidence to a call where the customer knows more about the subject than you do. When you add in the customers who know just enough to sound like they have a clue (which is about the same point as knowing enough to get themselves into trouble) it gets even tougher.
What to support. (Score:3, Insightful)
There really is no reason we can't support any email program, but people just aren't using them at home.
As far as the VNC idea, great in practice, but how hard is it to configure any web browser or email program over the phone? If something would require VNC, then it's something that you probably shouldn't be tech-ing, refer them to the hardware manufactor. I'm not saying I'm lazy, but my company isn't paying me to fix your virus scan, printer, and hard drive.
Finally what I would like to see is ISP's forcing people to use HARDWARE MODEMS. Nothing is more frustrating then trying to tech a compaq with a crappy HSP modem that doesn't work if you're using more then 50% of your cpu.
Re:What to support. (Score:2)
or
d) 100% of users (that call tech support) are idiots and 98% of them happens to have Windows.
Re:What to support. (Score:2)
From a EE's perspective, I don't even consider them to be "modems" at all. They are just PCI cards that convert data to a signal on the phone line and back. Nothing more. They don't have the DSPs that real modems have (the DSPing being done in software, of course).
ISP's (Score:2, Insightful)
Considering all modern OS's... (Score:2, Interesting)
Give the user the choice. Create a nice initial site that the new user connects to with links to common software. Also provide a page that gives detailed instructions on how to setup their email client, web browser, etc.
Be one of the few to promote user choice!
Re:Absolutely correct. (Score:2)
Even if they feel they must distribute software they should always do this.
All optional (Score:3, Informative)
It used to be that the basic software that local isp would send you was a browser (90% of the time it was Netscape) and an email program (like pegasus) that was mostly since most OSes didn't come with anything at all (win 3.x, old Mac OS)
but now unless you have a portal what's the point in handing anything out as more then a "nice option" ??
VNC for support is just silly (like someone said above) no connection no support
only thing I would see as usefull would be a virus scanner or something like that.
I know.. (Score:2)
Ok but seriously. If they were running Linux VNC and SSH come to mind. Then the tech support person will never had to talk to a person on the phone and deal with things like
"Ok press the button on the screen."
"Ok I'm pressing my finger against the monitor screen.."
If the tech could do the work directly himself rather than relaying what needs to be done through an inexperienced, incompetent human, things will get done much faster. The user only needs to give the person a username/password to log in.
As far as I know for windows, VNC is the only thing that would help a situation like stated above.
NONE (Score:5, Insightful)
Prime examples, 1 good and 1 bad.
Let's start with the worst, AOL. AOL requires a large piece of memory eating, slow as crap software to connect to the internet and use their service. Everything is proprietary, slow and crappy. I mean, proprietary is sometimes ok, but not if it's slower than the standard.
SNET internet http://www.snet.net. Their dial up service is exceptional. They give you a cd, but you don't need it. You can use any standard PPP connection software, like the ones built into windows or linux. All the software does it re-configure explorer to say brought to you by snet. If you don't mind it, install it. Their DSL while being fast, amazing, cheap, and everything else is equivalent. It comes with the same non-essential explorer customizing software. And it comes with the little program they use to establish the dsl connection. This is so they can require a name and password and transmit it securely. The software runs under windows. But I've made the dsl work in linux.
The best ISP in the world, college. Plug computer into wall. Auto configure lan connection with dhcp. Open any type of internet software, it works, fast, and reliable. No extra software needed.
Thats how it should be.
Re:NONE (Score:2)
Sounds like AT&T Broadband
Do as DirecTV DSL does (Score:2)
I also like the way DirecTV DSL does things. They give you a CD with a few optional apps, plus a DSL status monitor for Windows. You can follow the CD installation program if you want, and it's really slick, but you don't have to. Their setup manual has all the network settings you'll need if you want to do it manually.
And the reason they give you those settings is to support Linux installations. Thank God there's a major DSL provider that is aware that Linux exists.
And best of all, no PPPoE! And they let you run mail and Web servers off your connection if you want. I know that many people do it anyway with other providers, but it sure is nice to have it explicitly stated that you can.
But to get back on topic, a good ISP should provide a basic package of apps and possibly also a tool to automatically configure a system for someone who is afraid to do so. However, they should also provide that config info to those who are comfortable doing it themselves. As for what to support, I think that knowing something about several different browsers and e-mail apps is important. Where I worked, we would support them up to a point. After we'd done all we could, we'd have to send the user to Microsoft, which I think is entirely proper after we've tried our best to solve the problem. After all, MS writes these apps, so they shouldn't expect other companies to support them. They wrote the code; they can fix it when it breaks.
YES! (Score:3, Informative)
Way back when I got my cable modem (now replaced by DSL), Comcast sent out hardware guys and software guys separately. Mind you, this was long before the days of the self-install kit. The hardware guys did their job, but when the software guy showed up I didn't let him in the door. "Just gimme the config sheet with the server addresses, and be on your way," I said. And he did, and I amazingly survived for years with only the default IE throbber to watch while pages loaded.
The only useful app in that whole shitty bundle was the one that tested the @Home servers so I could find out exactly what was wrong before calling up to yell at the support monkeys.
Even worse, the Comcast.net software was even bigger shit-- almost every one of my clients who used @Home had their systems pretty well screwed by running that damned installer. Though on the plus side, I made quite a bit of money un-fucking things for them.
~Philly
Just an opinion (Score:5, Informative)
Do give them a minimal version of os requirement. If you tell them they need to have windows 95, and that you don't support win3.x, then you know they have a telnet client and will support that, for example.
Do require a minimum version of both ie and netscape. And then write your web pages to support both equally. Do provide unbranded versions of those browsers on cd and support the installation.
Do give them a web interface to their e-mail. Support that. And remember the minimal browser recommendation.
Do give them a real pop account so that those people that know what they are doing can set up their preferred e-mail client. Don't support those clients officially. This gives you control over the interface so your help people will always know what the customer is using.
For ftp, just pick a program you like. ws_ftpLE on the windows side and something on the mac.
Now the tough choices, newsgroups and chat. Since the chat clients are going back and forth on interoperability, you'll have to make 2 decisions. You'll have to decide if you are going to support a chat client. I'd personally say no, and here's why. Customers will want to use the client that all of their friends use, so if you tell them you won't support msn chat but will support icq, for example, you could lose customers. The alternative is to support the 3 or 4 major clients, and no more. The problem is that you'll have to keep up with lot's of different version which could be a problem. Of course, I don't do the icq/chat thing so take that with a grain of salt.
Which brings us to newsgroups. You need to decide if you are going to host them at all, just non-binaries or something in the middle. I'd say that the best reader for windows is Agent. So maybe you could get a licensing deal with them and spread the cost around. The alternative, outlook, doesn't enter into the picture because of security problems.
But that's just my thoughts.
Re:Just an opinion (Score:3, Interesting)
Sorry, I know this isn't really a software issue, but it can be a major pain [epinions.com] to try and swap important files like PDF documents with people and all of a sudden you are not receiving the messages and, in many cases, the ISP is not even bothering to bounce them back at the sender. It's one of those detail issues you never think of when you start using an ISP (unless you're grizzled) but ends up becoming very important.
Re:Just an opinion (Score:2)
That would be nice for a webmail interface. Have like a stop light or something that is green until you get within 10% of your quota then when you hit your quota it turns red. Something nice and visual for constant feedback.
When we were on windows 3.x I wrote a wrapper for eudora that warned people when they had less than 5 megs free on their network drive. That worked very well. API changes and cheap harddrives have essentially made it useless now, but it was a nice feature.
small isp's are good too (Score:2, Interesting)
It's not impossible to get good service from a small ISP, you just have to look.
How about an "I Don't Care" option? (Score:4, Informative)
The larger the ISP, the larger the marketing department, and consequently, the less I trust bundled ISPware.
I've been to the homes of n00bs, and seen some truly sickening stuff - one poor person was paying $19.99 per month (the same as any other user), for a custom browser that (a) crashed reproducibly on certain specific emails, (b) beamed banner ads every 30 seconds, and (c) looked like nothing I'd ever seen before - like the worst of Netscape, IE, and AOL rolled into one.) I think it was called Encompass [yahoo.com]. (Acquired, not coincidentally, by Yahoo in 1999).
Since I saw that, I no longer patronize ISPs that require the use of branded products.
So my answer to your question would be "I don't give a damn what you may distribute and support, so long as there's an easily-located web page or phone support script that allows me to find the IP addresses of your primary/secondary DNS servers, and the FQDNs of your POP, SMTP, NNTP, FTP and news servers, what number I can use to connect, and what to enter as a name/password combination when I do."
What you do with the n00bz is your own business.
Yes, you may not be using adware/spyware/malware - but because I don't trust you, I'm not gonna install your bundle to find out. If I can't set up the box without your branded bundle, I'll just take my business elsewhere.
Re:How about an "I Don't Care" option? (Score:2)
None! (Score:5, Insightful)
Feel free to give the user suggestions about what software to use, and point them to where they can obtain those applications, but don't waste resources putting together silly custom software packages that 1) eat up memory and cpu on the users' machines, and 2) half the users don't install anyway.
Re:None! (Score:2)
Re:None! (Score:2)
None. (Score:2)
Two packages...? (Score:2)
And then another one where you get bit of paper with server settings for the more advanced users.
What they really need are competant tech support people - i'm not saying that all isp support people are incompetant (some are in fact VERY competant) but a fair proportion are.
I'd like to recount my experience with at&t@home:
me> My connection is down, the modem doesn't seem to be able to establish ip connectivity after it's locked up and down streams
tech> Try rebooting
me> done that
tech> Power cycle the modem
me> done that
tech> Did you get the email about the changeover to attbi?
me> nope (presumably since I dont check my at&t address and they have another one on file anyway)
tech> ahhh, you need to check your email
me> but i'm not online
tech> but if you read this mail then it'll tell you how to get online
me> i dont think you understand what i'm saying...
tech> no you dont understand what i'm saying, the email will tell you how to get online.
... this goes on for sometime
Nothing (Score:2)
These days, just about every OS out there comes with all the tools a user needs to get online. If the ISP wants to provide software, the best thing they could do is host a TUCOWS (or similar) mirror, with an easy-to-negotiate interface and search engine.
I realize that a lot of people need more hand-holding than this, but I personally found it refreshing to deal with an ISP that treats you with a little intelligence....
Software is one thing, SERVICES are the gotcha (Score:2)
For some people, an ISP is a TCP/IP connection. Beyond that maybe they give you an email address, usenet, and some web space, but primarily its a TCP/IP connection. For those of us who view it that way, we don't want any software, we don't need any tech support, we only want to bother you when our 1's and 0's are getting to our home network.
For other people, an ISP is that "magical gateway to the Internet". These people have just bought their first PC (or been given one) and are still mastering the concepts of mice and keyboards. There is no web browser to this person there is only Internet Explorer. Mentioning SMTP will send them into a panic. These people need a whole lot of hand holding.
The ironic thing? Both of these extremes of people are paying the exact same amount per month. (Granted the first group may be using more bandwidth, but relatively speaking bandwidth is cheap compared to those warm bodies manning the phones.)
So, I think the real issue would be to tailor the software to the user class and tailor the price as well. (Maybe this is why AOL was able to charge a premium.) I wonder what would happen if we tried to introduce a license for driving the ol' "Information Super Highway"?
Security (Score:3, Insightful)
hmm... (Score:2)
My ISP (BT Internet) offers a program for download called 'BT Internet Dialer'. I don't use it because I can use a normal Dial-up networking connection. The dialer wouldn't offer any benefit, but it likely would pull some crap like opening a browser window for the ISP's portal when I dial up with it.
As a guide, don't make it:
And that's all I can think of, I'm afraid.
Michael
Testing tools (Score:2)
"OK, Click on Start then Run. Now type win i - p - c - f as in Frank - g."
"Is that all one word."
"Yes. Are you done?"
"Yes."
"OK, what does it say."
"Um, Command not found. Is this why Norton AV is beeping?"
Once you know their getting an IPaddr half the battle's over. Remote control would be useful to help fix someone's email settings, but a good FAQ would be better. Some of the ISP setup FAQs are hideous or just plain wrong. If they'd spend a few hours cleaning them up it would probably cut down considerably on their tech support calls.
I wouldn't recommend any remote control software though, since it would be way too easy for the session passwords to leak out.
A Linux user session is more like:
"Dude, http to g33kp0rn.net is timing out."
"What you say? Check ECN. RTFW for God's sake."
"ECN? Shit. Sorry."
RFCs (Score:5, Interesting)
I've gotten CDs from various ISPs over the years. The only one I've ever kept (or even used) was one that had every single RFC ever written burned onto it. Massively helpful, instructive, and educational from a historical standpoint.
Re:RFCs (Score:2)
Re:RFCs (Score:2)
Technical Support CD (Score:2)
It contained: 3COM 3c905b-tx drivers (our PCI nic), ne2000 drivers, some generic isa drivers, windows 95 and 98 versions of poledit, regedit, the windows 98 ptp and w2k ptp fixes (we were using plain-text auth at the time. not necessary but it gave 'em access to their network drives), and the cab files from windows 95, osr2.5, 98, and 98se (great for when windows asks you to insert the 9x cd during the install, I don't have to switch anything).
It also had a few diagnostic tools and some minor documentation I wrote on how to install a nic (such as weird bios configs, SBLive issues, etc). While this cd was never distributed, it was an excellent tool in getting people online.
That is what ISP's should give - a tool that helps the user get online. I hate custom browser and propritary dialers because they can be a pain in the arse to get working properly if your system is even slightly out of "spec".
Keep It Simple.
Do one thing... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Support Protocols, not Software. (Score:2)
Case in point, Earthlink isn't being very friendly with Evolution, it refuses to authenticate when I try to send e-mail. Outlook works fine however. Earthlink has pelnty of information on configuring Outlook but nothing at all on Evolution. I don't expect support of Linux but what would be really helpful is just the raw information I need to configure any mail client to use their SMTP servers. I mod you up with the moderation points of my mind.
What should it contain? (Score:2)
1) Automatic configeration for Windows (9x, ME, NT, 2000, and XP) and Mac.
2) Instructions for manual configeration of Mac, Windows and Linux.
3) the 2 most common/popular browsers, email clients and newsreader clients for Mac, Windows and Linux
That's also what should be officially supported by the ISP.
However some other things that one should consider adding:
Instant Messagers - ICQ, AIM, etc.
FTP Program
File Compression software
Antivirus software
other things that could be thrown in
IRC software
MP3 playback software
Firewall
There's so much that could be given out, but, the support should be focused on the browser, email and newsgroups... then a person can search out more specialised help for their software/hardware problems
IP provider, nothing more, nothing less (Score:2)
A notable exception is AOL, who think that the ISP and the client should co-mingle... This is more akin to cable brodcasting service that provides access to the cable tv network, and the programming.
Re:IP provider, nothing more, nothing less (Score:3, Informative)
Re:IP provider, nothing more, nothing less (Score:4, Informative)
1) As other posters have pointed out most slashdot readers are much better at computers then normal users. For us offering no or little support is less of an issue (except when the network is down, even the most technical still love to bitch when something is down
2) Most any company that sets their mind to it can offer dial up, or other Internet services. It is not all that hard really as long as you have a few tech people that have a clue. What sets apart a good ISP (the S is for Service) for the rest is good tech support. When a customer calls and says I can not get my email or heaven for bid ebay is not working the tech on the phone needs to know how to 'make ebay work again'. Also in many cases those same support people that are making ebay work again are also the ones that are working with vendors (LEC's, hardware, data, etc) so one way or another they are needed in the organization anyway.
Those are only a few points, but I think you get the picture. O yeah I happen to work at an ISP so I do have a bit of real world exprieane on this one
Re:IP provider, nothing more, nothing less (Score:2)
So now I digress, the matter of a service oriented society. I disagree about the 2nd point categorically. When I worked for Microsoft supporting Windows95, 98... I knew that that Microsoft was selling my service. So it is true that we are a service level society. However, I can also say that support persons need to have cleanly defined support boundaries. There is a line that must not be crossed in regards to what is supported, and what isn't. Does an ISP support eBay, they most certainly do not! Does an ISP take ownership of connectivity issues, they always do. If a support tech were to cross the support boundaries, they are only asking for trouble and in effect on their own.
Tech support people need not teach the consumer how to use the product they have purchased. The consumer can fall on their own sword, and light their own path. I'm speaking of how to operate VNC remote control software, or the irssi IRC client. This is not the same as supporting the applications provided by the ISP such as how to configure a standard Netscape email client. The IP settings are a given, and the core business of an ISP.
Back when I, and two other persons, where responsible for supporting the school dial-up service.... One of the nice things we did for the idiot students was to provide a convenient little CD rom that we had the school press at the cd plant. We would put all kinds of nice things in the kit: setup scripts, the latest Netscape, wsftp, and some docs (that nobody would read). All that good stuff packed into a handy CD that was available all over campus. The point I'm trying to make is that we would take advantage of the discs freeware, we didn't support them. We would only support the user (students, teachers) in establishing the serrial connection, ppp initilization, and access to the local campus network. Support of the campus network included making sure they could access accedmic resources. When you got 20 calls on hold, and two people answering phones... it just doens't seem that important to teach the user how to operate a chat client.
Another point I would like to make is about support persons. The world simply doesn't understand support people. Having been one, and escaping the industry I can say with authority that constant exposure to floundering users eventually leads to what is known as "bastardism". Any seasons Admin will attest to what I'm talking about. They know what support boundaries are, and what customer services is all about. Why would a pay to talk to a BOFH, and a meager minor league ISP tech at that. I'd rather be spared the cost of paying for that persons job, and get cheaper Ip address's. Enough said.
WTF? (Score:2)
The rest of the world is a lot bigger than you are (Score:4, Insightful)
I end up playing technical support for my family. I don't like it. I don't like explaining what TCP/IP is. I don't like having to set up Internet Explorer to look on the LAN for the net connection instead of trying to dial up. And I really don't like the terminology that Windows uses to get you running. It's silly really.
You know what the ISP should provide? It should provide the information to the computer on how it should be set up. If the CD basically told the computer 'Go to DHCP, set your programs to look on the lan for the internet connection, and then go!' that'd be all most people really cared about.
When @Home went down, AT&T BI set up their DNS so that no matter what address you went to, you ended up at a web page that says "Download and run this file." When you did that, it set up my computer for what the new network was. That was so cool. I didn't have to plug any new data in. That's what the CD should do.
Keep it minimal (Score:2, Interesting)
So, in order to keep our rates low ($12.95/mo, less annually), we send a disc that automatically configures Win9x/Win2k/WinXP dial-up networking. It also reccomends installation of IE6 (included on disc). We only offer *software* tech support to customers running on that platform.
Of course, we still give out all information and do the best we can to get other systems up and running. Generally, if you include something on a CD, the customer expects support--that's why you should keep it minimal.
As far as VNC software goes, it's not worth the effort or security risk).
/. is in no way indicative of an real ISP userbase (Score:2)
Unless, of course, you only want geeks as customers.
Distribute no software. (Score:3, Interesting)
If you really need to distribute software, then share those if/else click through support files that the tech support people are [poorly] using. Of course, I may just be bitter having used AOL's and Comcast's "support" services.
Why Bundle at all? (Score:2, Insightful)
NOT Outlook! (Score:2, Informative)
Re:NOT Outlook! (Score:2)
1 - In the University Setting, things are ran a little differently than what they are everywhere else. You have a 8 month year, then 4 months to get everything back working again, upgrading equipment, etc when the students aren't around. Most businesses aren't really set up like that...there's not a predictable 4-month window when you can convert everything to IP telephony, or do a big router uprgade, because the business (at large) is at a limited or diminished capacity.
2 - Virus Scanning should very much be a part of a campus enviornment both SERVER SIDE and CLIENT SIDE. We have a site license to Norton Anti Virus Corporate, and we use AntiGen (for Exchange) and qmail-scanner (for everyone else). Between the two, we haven't had a large virus break in a long time.
My 2 cents.
Moderators: Yes, I know this is a little bit OffTopic, but I needed to get my point across.
What should be on the ISP CD? (Score:2, Funny)
So the ISP CD should be have content, not applications.
Help your customers. Fill it with porn.
Software? Support? Just *Internet Service* (Score:3, Interesting)
Fortunately that's what my ISP provides. (Oh, yeah, they offer an email account, but I prefer to run my own domain.)
Any software or service an ISP offers beyond that is costing somebody money. Guess who.
none (Score:2)
Speaking from experience... (Score:2, Informative)
The simple fact is that, as others have illustrated, the majority of ISP users are "casual" users - they literally panic at the thought of having to setup anything manually (even something so relatively simple as adding a mail account in Outlook Express). Most of these users won't even contemplate going out to download something that wasn't included in the default installation... I can't tell you how many times I've had a technical support chat where the browser showed up as "IE 5.0" even though it's now a few years old!
The people who really are technically skilled just don't need the support to begin with. They know how to get Netscape, Opera, Eudora, and so on - and probably won't even need to check a website for instructions to set it up. As such, it's really just better to support what comes with the ISP (or the OS); give the support to the people who really need it!
I would just note, of course, that this doesn't mean that I'm endorsing Microsoft's old "IE or the highway" strategy with Windows - I just think that it would be quite a burden to expect an ISP to support every modern browser/e-mail app that happens to be available for download. If an ISP includes more than one company's program (or one besides IE), all the more power to them.
Let it be known! (Score:2)
2 things to make the 'net a better place (Score:2)
Strong Passwords
If people had a program to generate strong passwords, then there would befewer system and accounts for black hats to use to leapfrog across the net tohide their tracks. I'm working on a java applet that uses a strong PRNG seeded with user mouse movements and input from SecueRandom to generate 5 prnouncable passwords and 5 phrases made of real words. Something like this bundled with AOL's account setup program would do great things for teir security, and by extension, make the net a better place for everyone.
Public Key Infrastructure
ISPs should get Verisign or Thawte, or another big name certificate and use that to sign certificates for their customers. Give them a certificate with thier email address. In a couple of years the open mail relay spam problem will fix itself as everone will automatically throw away unsigned email and ISPs will revoke certs of spammers, or there will be public databases of spammer certs.
PKI doesn't cost companies very much, only a little for the certificate and a little bit of education. Many email client already have crypto plugins.
Sure, you'll still have problems, mostly from ISPs doing poor identity checking and users using bad passwords.
Uninstall (Score:2)
MStar Software Nightmare (Score:3, Interesting)
I moved into a new apartment near the end of 2000. Broadband was not (affordably) available in my neighborhood, and so I opted for a dial-in through a company named MStar [mstar.net]. Boy was that a mistake.
I was running Linux on my primary machine, but they sent me Windows-only sign-up software on a CD-ROM. So I fired up my old system from when I was a freshman, which still had Windows '95 on it, and signed up. Their software loaded onto my system, took the liberty of placing a custom "quick-launch" bar onto my desktop, and then proceeded to log me in and activate my account.
The browser on the quick-launch bar was IE, but I prefered Netscape. However, when I tried to launch Netscape, the window would blip open for a split second and then close. Confused, I closed the quick-launch program (which disconnected me from the network) and tried again; this time it worked. MStar's trojan sofware was literally blocking me from running Netscape.
Their software, which connecting, would ask for a username and password, which is just a front for a "real" username and password that were secretly passed to the server when initiating the PPP connection. I used some software to capture my real username and password, and then I set up a standard dial-up account. When I would try to access the net on my Linux box, the Windows box would be able to auto-dial the connection. That worked nicely for a while.
Until a month later when banner ads from MStar started appearing at the bottom of every page that I loaded. Their servers were modifying every web page that I retrieved by placing an image and a link to MStar-related sites! There was a "disable banner for 5 minutes" link in the banner, which simply called a Perl script with a parameter of 5.
Oh, and did I mention that MStar performs ISP-side web censorship? They blocked Adobe's web site once. I had to set up a proxy server on another network to get around that little issue.
With the help of a filtering proxy and a call to that script with a parameter of "9999999" in my browser's home page setting, I was finally able to get clean access to the net. A few months later, I moved and had broadband access. But I will never consider going with MStar again.
The next time I search for an ISP, I will only subscribe to a service that interferes the least with my connection to the Internet.
This is an obsolete question (Score:2)
Almost everything ISPs want you to install sucks, anyway.
Does anyone know how to uninstall BroadJump? [broadjump.com] safely? It's running something in the background and messing up a friend's machine. BroadJump refuses tech support requests.
What should they support? (Score:2)
It's not that their helpdesk guys are stupid. It's that the customers are ignorant. Imagine the following scenario:
"I can't connect."
"What OS are you using?"
"Linux 8.1"
[sigh] "Which Linux distribution is that?"
"Huh? It's Linux. I just bought it at a yardsale."
[assumes Redhat] "Okay, are you using KDE or Gnome?"
"I just done told ya I'm using Linux!"
"Yes sir, I know that."
"You guys said you support Linux, so support it!"
"What's on your screen right now?"
"It says 'please insert CD number two to continue installation."
...
But there is a solution. For some strange reason ISPs are marketing two services packaged as one product. Connectivity and support. I don't see why they can't split up the package if necessary. Let's say the price of the normal service is $50. For a Windows user that includes connectivity and support of Explorer, Netscape and Outlook. But if you're using Linux, BSD, BeOS, etc., they can't effectively support you. So you don't pay for support. Your price just dropped to $40. I can live with that.
Re:Software... (Score:2, Interesting)
let it be their choice- if there's licensing issues with software, include a link to where they can get it. Preferably free software- free as in beer. perhaps links to reviews of the software.
If you REALLY wanted to put work into it, offer a webpage where you can put in your computers stats(os, ram, hd, etc) and it can make suggestions on what they 'could' try. Keep in mind most people who would need something like this aren't going to that experienced in the first place.
Make sure everything is simple- I use the granny test when testing usability of software. I take a not-so-random sample of my granmothers, my girlfriend's grandmothers, and my friends grandmothers, and tell them to try the software- if they like it, I take careful notes on how THEY would describe it.
using this method, describe post a review of the software and let users share their comments.
make sure to tell the users that your not responsible for the software or the advice of others. which reminds me, include documentation- that way you can tell them to RTFM and they'll know where to find it.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Distribute isn't the question, support is... (Score:2)
When we are heavily loaded with support calls, there are things that we would not support as readily as others, because our primary goal is to get people an IP (at the minimum) and to make sure they can use a browser. Other issues such as not being able to get netbios name resolution is usually shifted to lower priority. During these times, we follow the "treat 'em and street 'em" rule in order to keep response times to a sane level. In addition we have to go and fix people who get trojan'd or otherwise cause trouble for the network. Even though we can not swap out hardware, most issues have to deal with funky win32 tcp/ip issues. We have 1 mac expert and 1 unix tech as the population of these users are low. We spend a lot of time on win32 issues, but when and if it comes down to partial reinstalls of the tcp/ip stack or registry reconfigurations, we always must make sure that we have supported all the people with the "easy problems" first. It is easy to install drivers or configure IE to stop dialing AOL, so support must go to those people first, because again, the overall goal is to as many people working as possible in the shortest time possible. During peak demand, any client taking over 30 minutes to fix will probably be deferred because in those 30 minutes you could probably get to 5 other people with relatively simple problems (or making sure the voicemailbox stays clean). Also, any client taking over 30 minutes to fix over the phone would be getting a room visit since it is probably more effective to figure out what is going on instead of relying on the client to try to describe the problem.
If it came down to distributing anything, we'd probably distribute site-licensed NAV and a driver CD, so we could walk through people easily when installing drivers. Every brand of NIC driver disk has a different layout which makes it hard to tell people what directory to go to (win9x, NT, 2k, mac?) and what
Re:Browser Prefrence (Score:2)
Re:Virus Scanners (Score:2)
Actually, in all fairness to Norton, it simply acts as a POP/SMTP proxy. The / is for the DNS name of the server you're trying to log into. Relatively standard stuff. Now, of course, if NAV isn't running at the time, things get a little messed up.That's a good idea in theory, but -- ever used norton antivirus? The newer ones come with an email cleaning feature. It tries to redirect your mail to a norton server, or put slashes in your username, etc, etc...and in the process hoses up your pop3 settings horrendously.
Oh, and it's quite easily disabled. And I usually do so...at least on the POP end. People don't get quite as upset when they can't send email as when they can't receive it.
Re:Software? (Score:2)
It also came with software for every major ISP out there at the time, a copy of Mosaic and some other nifty stuff. (mostly complete AT command chart and such).
Man I miss how stuff used to come prepackaged.
Heya, anybody else remember how you had to PAY to join an ISP? You'd fork over cash to GET that AOL disk! LOL! (called a starter kit then, heh.)
Not having that kind of money at the time (err, or now. I still could not afford to pay $200 or so for just entry rights to an online medium, not to mention per minute charges!) I have no idea what was in those packages, but the level of support and services offered in them might be good to look at for starters. (with things updated of course)