Escape from California? 142
An anonymous reader asks: "Is there any escape from California? I'm a very experienced software engineer (7+ years) with a MSEE and lots of great work experience. Even in this market, jobs in CA are easy to grab if I want them. Trouble is, I don't want to live here anymore. Six figures in Northern CA gets mostly pissed away on a mortgage for a house that isn't worth half that anywhere else, and I'm pretty much just waiting for the earthquake to hit and wipe it out. I'd love to move to the midwest, but decent software jobs seem to not exist. I'm more than willing to take a huge paycut to get a job there, but where to even start looking?"
Talk to Konstantinos (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Talk to Konstantinos (Score:1)
What's more, I'll take you too as well. I'm sure that
with such a witty spirit you could be perfect for
the CEO in my company...
Telecommuting? (Score:2)
No! (Score:5, Insightful)
I suppose it's just the way the world works, but it's hard to get the match the random hallway converstations. They often result in avoiding massive problems or substantial enhancements. It's also very benificial for your engineers to be able to stroll over and ask another developer a quick question (ideally with a whiteboard in near proximity).
My two cents.
-Bill
Re:No! (Score:5, Interesting)
Since you can't glean info from the coworkers in the hall, you'll probably get it from them in writing, and if its in writing, it can be in the documentation, and if you put it in the documentation, then everybody knows.
Re:No! (Score:2)
Alas, when writing, you have to guess every question anybody would ask, and then guess at what their experience and knowledge is, so that you can then guess at the right answer. And even if you guess right three times in a row, writing good docs takes much longer than chatting in the hall.
Human conversation has massive bandwidth and low latency. Really good documentation can be a close second. But most people write shitty documentation.
(Note to lame programmers: the fact that documentation sucks isn't a reason to write crappy code. As Martin Fowler says, "Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that a human can understand.")
Telecommuting can work (Score:2)
We're living in a broadband era, so things such as Netmeeting and the like are marvelous for exchanging ideas. Real-time video conferencing is possible for next to no expense when using such software. Real-time code walk-throughs, specification reviews, prototype demos....it's all possible with such software packages.
Since I develop for NT and Win2k, we use Netmeeting. The shared whiteboard, shared apps and video/audio/text capabilities are invaluable for fleshing out ideas and being sure of everyone's intentions. So, no, you don't need to guess every possible question that might be asked, you just have to make sure that the tools available to communicate are well and truly used.
The risk is that we telecommuters tend to really enjoy the isolation and may lean toward maintaining that isolation rather than reach out on a regular basis to make sure that we're all (project-wide) marching to the same drummer. To minimize this risk, therefore, it's incumbent upon project management to ensure that these tools are used and used well. Doing so will ensure that there are no unwanted surprises brought about due to the development process being distributed.
Re:No! (Score:2)
call. "Tele"-commuting means "tele"-communications.
Whiteboarding is good too.
If someone is not producing good documentation, they
are a long-term drain on the organization and should
be dumped. Just a rule of thumb, of course, but
an important one.
Re:No! (Score:2)
Some, perhaps. But nothing close to all.
I work in the style of various Agile methods [agilealliance.org], including the unfortunately named Extreme Programming. This involves close team development.
One great benefit is intentional communication. Turning to the guy at the next desk to ask a question is still an order of magnitude easier than even the shiniest phone. And the bandwidth is still a lot higher; on the phone you lose expression and posture, to say nothing of the ability to hand you something.
But just as important is the unintentional communication. If the pair next to me is having trouble with something that I know about, then I can just pipe up. If I'm making a decision that affects them, they can put their two cents in without me having to call a meeting.
Sitting in the same room with my team gives me a great deal of information about the state of the project for free. Getting the same info by telephone or email is much, much harder.
If someone is not producing good documentation, they are a long-term drain on the organization and should be dumped. Just a rule of thumb, of course, but an important one.
Alternatively, perhaps it's the organization that develops in a way that requires a lot of paperwork that is a long-term drain and should be dumped.
Documentation is a method of communication. We communicate so we can develop with speed and accuracy. But documentation isn't the only way to do that, or even the best one.
When documentation is necessary, I use it. (And as a published writer, I even think it's fun.) But it's never my first choice.
Re:No! (Score:2)
Sitting in the same room with my team gives me a great deal of information about the state of the project for free. Getting the same info by telephone or email is much, much harder.
It's not that bad, and I speak as someone who develops software with a distributed team (all of us work from home).
Some things we do: Heavy use of instant messaging and the telephone. As far as IM goes, we generally have a full-team chat open all day long, every day (right now the project I'm working on is a two-man job, so "full-team chat" is the same as "conversation"). Phones with headsets allow us to have constant voice communication when we want as well. It's not unheard of to set up a dedicated conference call number which everyone is dialed into all day long, mostly just transmitting keyclicks. More normal, though, is to use IM unless higher bandwidth is required.
We don't use netmeeting stuff, really, although we probably should look into it. And as far as being able to hand someone something, well, the goal is to make sure everybody has all of the equipment they need and everything else is just bits on the wire.
Re:No! (Score:2)
I've done both, and I agree it's possible to develop in a distributed way. But working apart, you only get information on what people choose to say.
In person, you get a lot of valuable information that people don't say. An IM that says "Sure, I'll meet the delivery date," is one thing; being able to watch their eyes when they say it is another. To say nothing of being able to tell whether the guy who hasn't said anything in a while is working hard or just in a panic.
well, the goal is to make sure everybody has all of the equipment they need and everything else is just bits on the wire.
It's a good goal, but converting to bits is hard. And until we all get jacks in the backs of our skulls; some things just won't convert. For example, having a bunch of people doing joint design by moving around CRC cards has a compelling presence that a screen and a mouse just can't match.
So again, I agree that you can develop that way when you have to. But physical presence (and its incrased bandwidth) makes it possible to go faster.
Re:No! (Score:2)
So again, I agree that you can develop that way when you have to. But physical presence (and its incrased bandwidth) makes it possible to go faster.
I think it depends on the team more than anything. We don't have any problems with what people choose not to say; but that comes from trust built by experience, which may not always be the case. It also comes about because I'm the project manager but I'm also a very good developer, which means that it's very difficult to BS me.
To say nothing of being able to tell whether the guy who hasn't said anything in a while is working hard or just in a panic.
This is a good example: We tend to verbalize every minor success or obstacle, so there's no question -- the guy who's silent isn't working.
For example, having a bunch of people doing joint design by moving around CRC cards has a compelling presence that a screen and a mouse just can't match.
True. There are downsides. But not having to spend two hours a day commuting and being able to live wherever you want makes most of us willing to go the extra mile and find ways around them. I work more hours when telecommuting than I would otherwise, in part to overcome some of the obstacles you mention, but my quality of life is better for it.
Remote software dev (Score:2)
I think that a lot of this stems from two main reasons:
a) if you're throwing out ideas very quickly, the higher bandwidth of speech than typing can be helpful (even phones are, at least for me, much more difficult to understand than right-here spoken words).
b) There are some major impediments to the equivalent of quick diagram sketches or showing things visually. First, the computer has piss-poor input devices for producing a quick sketch -- mice are really, really slow compared to a pen. Second, there isn't a overwhelmingly popular, universal, cross-platform system for collaborating and sharing sketches and bits of information, though there have been a lot of stabs at it. Third, the bandwidth used in sketching can be a bit of an issue if one of your users is on a low bandwidth connection like a modem. I've seen some research work done at Bell Labs and Carnegie Mellon University on software to rapidly develop rough 3d models. It's nice, but it's nowhere near what you can accomplish with a pen, a piece of paper for 2d or clay for 3d.
OTOH, while this varies from project to project, during the actual coding or debugging process, I've seen no problems with simply using text and working remotely. As a matter of fact, it's often easier to share information, since you're copy-pasting errors or other information back and forth. It's a bit disappointing that the most popular messaging protocols suck (Jabber's the most popular one I know of that's actually well-designed), but IM client + shared network filesystem + available phone works pretty well, in practice.
After all, take a look at Linux...
Also, a minor benefit of increasing the cost of communication between developers is that it tends to improve modularity -- each developer goes more out of his way to ensure that his code is robust in handling errors in the other developers' code.
Can be done (Score:2)
Re:No! (Score:2)
exception of my stint at Sun Microsystems, I found
it a much superior arrangement. It works best when
everyone is telecommuting. I can't understand how
anyone can do useful work in a cube. It takes me
30 minutes to get started on a substantial piece
of code, old or new, and if my train of thought is
interrupted during that time, I have to restart
the clock.
In a 100% telecommuting environment, the result is
superior documentation, superior process and
coordination, and superior individual productivity.
Of course you have to cull the dead weight much
more quickly, but it also becomes very obvious
much more quickly who is contributing and who is
not.
Kalifornia (Score:2, Interesting)
You might be able to find a decent job... but (Score:3, Informative)
I'm comming up on being out of work for three months.... with little end in sight. I have hope, but when you have bills to pay, hope does not spring eternal. I say, stay where you are, or maybe commute from Navada. Yes, I'm serious.
Re:You might be able to find a decent job... but (Score:2)
I may be in the technology field. I may push bits instead of a pencil, but communication skills are essential.
Now to address anyone with a job right now and what they should do. In my assessment my opinion is 'milk the cow until it dies' unless a guaranteed opportunity comes directly to you for more money in a less expensive location with a company with a very attractive balance sheet. California is difficult, but so is taking a regression in salary. I do believe California will have a severe problem with dealing with the twenty to thirty billion dollar state deficit without raising already alarmingly high state income and sales tax.
I would also like to point out that the dot com bust is an all too convenient scapegoat for the current situation in America (rising unemployment, deflation in wages in certain markets, deficits in state and federal government due to massive capital gain revenue being lost coupled with increased spending in reaction to sudden new 'needs' in national security, etc). Surprisingly, the economy is still growing, just more slowly when compared to they was it was. [peopledaily.com.cn] Politics and the stock market somehow get coalesced in with 'the economy.' Oversimplification is a dangerous tool the masses use upon themselves. Your gloom and doom is a reflection of your confidence, and whatever the source of self deprecation, it tends to have a pronounced effect on nations as a whole, but it's not enough to snuff out entrepreneurial, scientific or philanthropic spirit (thank goodness).
Failure can be a self fulfilling prophecy. The founder of Dunkin' Donuts made his first fortune in the great depression. [dunkindonuts.com]
(article linked to above blockquoted, slow link>
Move North. (Score:2, Informative)
There's loads of software jobs in the Seattle area.
Re:Move North. (Score:4, Informative)
Friend of mine just got hired for a position which received over 800 applicants in less than a month! (They threw up their hands at the deluge and went the word-of-mouth route).
Another position I know of recently was very low paying kind of boring crappy little job at a non-profit org. and it got over a hundred resumes before it was even officially available! (At least they saved their advertising $.
Not to mention, if you actually bother to read the business section of the news, Seattle has the highest unemployment rate for the tech sector in the whole damn country!
So if you have a job you specifically want to offer the guy, go for it, but don't be leading him on...
Re:Move North. (Score:1, Offtopic)
Oh, that reminds me.... (Score:2)
Try Provo (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Try Provo (Score:2)
Also it is about 90% LDS. That is both good and bad. I am LDS but I just do not want to live anywhere that is 90% one religion. Even if it is my own.
Stay away (Score:4, Funny)
Tornado... (Score:2, Funny)
I'd love to move to the midwest
Oh great, then a tornado will destroy your house.
Re:Tornado... (Score:1)
DC Metro Area (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:DC Metro Area (Score:2, Informative)
The high end TRACK HOUSING goes for about $1.5million. I live in north county san diego, it isnt cheap.
In maryland i saw houses as large as these 1.5million dollar ones for around $500k or less.
Re:DC Metro Area (Score:4, Interesting)
Median prices in Arlington have risen roughly 50% in 5 years -- a bit of sticker shock.
To the poster: There are many many mini Silicon-Whatevers around the country, including here. Things have slowed down with the economy, of course.
I grew up in California, N and S, and think it's a great state. But I have no question my standard of living (except weather) is better here. Anyway I like snow, damn it, and my mentality is much more East Coast than West.
Re:DC Metro Area (Score:2)
Re:DC Metro Area (Score:1)
Send me a resume! (Score:3, Informative)
JUSTIN
Not a bad way to find workers (Score:2)
Re:Not a bad way to find workers (Score:1)
Read this... (Score:5, Informative)
The top states for Californians to move to were:
Washington - 534,000
Texas - 523,000
Arizona - 449,000
Oregon - 374,000
Neveda - 320,000
Re:Read this... (Score:2)
Re:Read this... (Score:3, Interesting)
seriously though, a lot of seattlites moving to spokane/northeast WA to get away from the californians coming to seattleish area...
Re:Read this... (Score:1)
Heh, fine by us in Oregon. We really are full. 8:o)
Seriously, if you want to to hear a 20 minute speech on every last bit of unilaterlally Californian politics that Oregon's taken splash-damage for, spend most of your time in the rain, get bitched at for driving instead of taking TriMet [trimet.org], and rust in traffic waiting for dozens of weekly protests and advocacy parties, and spend it unemployed, then move to Oregon.
For the rest of you, there's Seattle, though they'll bitch about yet another Californian moving there, too.
If you don't want to get bitched at for moving in from California, move to anywhere but the Pacific Northwest. California's not been a good neighbor to us, and it'll save yourself the trouble and the earful to go someplace else. Native northwesterners tend to get hiring priority anyway.
Austin, TX (Score:2)
Culturally, Austin has a lot going on, particularly its music scene. Pretty much all the state's liberals are corralled there but it is the state capital so virtually every political bent is well represented.
Anyhow, it should be on your list of places to check out.
Re:Austin, TX (Score:1)
Besides, Dell just laid off another 3000 people. Nobody is hiring and nobody is quitting their jobs. Because of all you Californicators moving out here and outbidding all the locals when buying property ("Sure, I'll raise my bid $20,000-30,000") because of the excessive equity in your California home, the local taxing district has raised property values the maximum they can. And guess what? There is no maximum rate! (unless if you've declared Homestead and then it's 10%) So my $175,000 2500sqft home has gone up 10%/yr for the last 5 yrs due to the strong economy to now be worth $257,000! My annual property taxes are now $5200...and I'm not even being taxed at the maximum rate!
AMD has laid off, IBM has laid off, Dell has laid off, Applied Materials has laid off, even the state agencies have been asked by the governor to find a way to trim 10% from the annual budget.
So, once again, please stay away. We have enough homeless people begging for handouts on the street corners.
Re:Read this... (Score:2)
Re:Read this... (Score:3, Funny)
On the back of the sign was a hand written addendum: "Don't forget to leave"
Re:Read this... (Score:2)
From the study:
Estimates of the net outflow vary substantially (see the text box, "Measuring Domestic Migration" on page 4). Despite the outflow of domestic migrants, California's population continued to grow during the 1990s through international immigration and natural increase. Although growth rates were substantially lower than in the 1980s, between 1990 and 1999 the state's population increased by 3.3 million people according to the Census Bureau and by 4.2 million people according to the California Department of Finance. According to the Census Bureau, the net inflow of 2.2 million international immigrants was offset by the net outflow of 2.2 million domestic migrants. Estimates by the California Department of Finance imply a much lower net outflow of about 1.2 million domestic migrants.
Thats funny... (Score:2)
There are jobs in the midwest. I would look in Chicago (and suburbs), Columbus, Indianapolis or Detroit.
All of my work experience is with CG/Animation, so to stay in the industry I pretty much have to leave the midwest. The midwest is really a good place to live and work.
If you are used to the hour long commute, that opens you up to plenty of afordable housing in the midwest.
-Tim
Portland to Idaho (Score:5, Interesting)
I used the package to buy a house, and started living off of my savings while looking for a job. It took me about three months to find one. I've moved from being a software engineer at $62k per year to being a hardware tester at $15 per hour. But I absolutely don't regret it. I'm very happy here and don't miss Portland at all.
Though my pay has dropped from >5k / month to 2.5k / month, my actual take-home has only dropped to about 60% of what it was because I'm in a lower tax bracket. Further, my mortgage is now $500 / month less than it was, from $1110 to $609.
Start looking in all of the places you'd like to move to. If you've never been there, take some time off and go there, or talk to someone who has. There are relatively few jobs away from the coast, but they are out here. Check the local newspapers, and see what you can find. Find out who the big employers are in the towns you're interested in, and start trying to contact people within them.
Finally, if you're unhappy, move. You only live once.
Re:Portland to Idaho (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh, dude I so agree with that statement. I grew up in Illinois, did short work stints in San Antonio, Texas, and Denver, Colorado. Then I moved again to Anchorage, Alaska, then Kansas City, then back to Anchorage, then small towns in Missouri, and now I'm in Sydney, Australia.
Man, life is far too short to just dream of other places, you have to take the initiative and go there.
I'm also trying to get a job in the US, but when I've had my fill of that place, I'm going to Scotland. That's highest right now on my places-i -want-to-go list, and there is no way in hell I'm not going.
My advice is to move where you want to be, then find a job there. Or, find a job where you want to move, then move there. But don't find a job you like then move to wherever it is, you'll never like where you go because you were made to go there.
Do what you love, live where you want, do what you like, and the money will come to you, that's my experience, anyway.
-Naikrovek
Re: Portland to other countries? (Score:2)
How do you get work visas in other countries such as Scotland and Australia?
I always thought that was a substantial issue in moving outside the US.
Re: Portland to other countries? (Score:2)
The visa process usually requires that you be sponsored by a company already there. The best place to start would be the embassy for whichever country you are looking at.
duuude!!! (Score:2)
get a street bike
get a dirt bike
get a jetski
get a surfboard (and a wetsuit)
get a snowboard or skiis
forget bug repellant
get some sunblock
get some hiking boots
go to Fry's...etc...
Utah (Score:4, Informative)
I'm not kidding, it worked fine for me. Strong tech sector, affordable housing, good wages for engineers, friendly people, world class recreation (biking, skiing, hiking, climbing, etc.) I was glad to escape California, it didn't even take much adjusting: considering the fact that most of the people living in my neighborhood are from California.
BUt can you get a decent beer??!? (Score:2)
Re:Utah (Score:2)
After living in New York City and southern California, being around all white people makes me feel uncomfortable.
And yes, I'm white.
Re:Utah (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Utah (Score:1)
Re:Utah (Score:2)
Re:Utah (Score:2)
Not that I have anything against the Californians (and others) coming here; it's a free country (more or less) and I can certainly understand the attraction.
Still, that's why Utahns like me are eyeing Idaho, Wyoming and Montana. And this time I'm not getting anything smaller than 40 acres -- not gonna have my view cluttered up with houses again. Bonus points for any place where my kids can shoot their .22s in the back yard.
No doubt there are going to be some Idahoans complaining about the influx of Utahns...
What's wrong with this man??? (Score:1, Troll)
Re:What's wrong with this man??? (Score:2)
Have you been to any modestly large cities in the Midwest? I'm not talking about Chicago, IL, Minneapolis/St. Paul, MN, or Indianpolis,IN. I'm talking about cities like Madison, WI, Rockford, IL, or Des Moines, IA.
Most of these cities score reasonably high on quality of living surveys and are hardly "white-trash wastelands". Take a week and visit before going off on a stereotype.
Re:What's wrong with this man??? (Score:2)
Yep -- they're pretty nice places to live. (Chicago is also a very livable city)...but have you ever tried living in a Madison, WI winter? Think about how it'll fly for a Californian. Far, far too cold.
Re:What's wrong with this man??? (Score:1)
Rich
Re:What's wrong with this man??? (Score:2)
Didn't Columbus, Ohio [bet.com] just top BET's list of best cities for African Americans? Several other midwestern cities [bet.com] made it in the top 20 as well.
Are you sure about massive pay cuts? (Score:4, Interesting)
Michigan Job! (Score:3, Funny)
Check this out... (Score:2, Insightful)
Good place to start looking, seems Texas has a shit load of opportunity
Chicago. (Score:1)
Chicago is more expensive than, say, Pittsburgh, and yeah it's a bit cutthroat right now where corps are hiring straight out of school robots at low wages who are no threat to their job security but the difference between some of the big firms here and elsewhere is *gasp* they'd encourage a digital resume being sent in, will fly you out and meet with you, and etc.
Re:Chicago. (Score:1)
Chicago is also one of the most unfriendly, anti-intellectual, angry, boorish places on the planet. I was plenty happy to leave my hometown (Chicago) and not look back six and a half years ago... and when I finally got around to visiting in July to pick up some good food (one of the place's few redeeming qualities) the people were as obnoxious and brusque as they ever had been.
One improvement since I cleared out in '96 though: the term "web site" now can actually be uttered in casual conversation, say in a bar, without somebody walking up to you and telling you "I don't come here to talk about work so stop (expletive) talking about computers."
You may find a job there, but don't expect your profession or your abilities to be even moderately respected, with the possible exception of working inside an IT-centric firm. This is the same city whose mayor, back in 1997 or 1998, said that they were going to prove that Chi could be a hi-tech center on par with Silicon Valley... by putting up an office building prewired for Internet access. Big brouhaha. Wow.
Good luck. And stay away from Portland, OR. Great place but the job market is torched beyond recognition, which renders its niceness A-1 moot.
Re:Chicago. (Score:1)
What neighborhood did you live in? The 'scenes' I frequent I'd deem overly intellectual (delving into the realm of pseudo-intellectual all too readily)... the opposite of angry: everyone has been everyone's best friend for the longest time... and uh, well, yeah, it is kinda boorish.
I find Chicago to be tame, passive versus any other metropolises I've been to. Perhaps that's why certain people might seem extra obnoxious when contrasted by the 'distance'...
Yeh, tho, I've had friends in full agreement of you. But if you back out and say you lived in a suburb (or the south or west sides) then tut tut on you, that's not 22nd Century Chicago.
Anyway, the 'putting up an office building prewired for Internet Access' is, uh, a bit off - The company was Divine Interventures (RIP) and they were offered the internet-building at, like, a fraction of what a riverfront, totally hooked up building ought to cost. The plan essentially turned into the 'Schaumberg Boom' which pretty much nixed the property taxes and other city controlled sorta monies... check the radar and you'll find a spike in the amount of HQs sprouting up in the Chicagoland area.
The Silicon Prairie is what it is - cheaper than the 'coasts', our No Coast boasts pseudo-urban styles, a little bit of everything.
PS . . . I'm not a tech person and I want to get out, it's not the most social of cities that's for sure.
Re:Chicago. (Score:1)
Let me first say that you absolutely have a brain, unlike a whole lot of the Chicagoans I left behind. :)
I'm a native south-sider and spent a good deal of time living in the Lakeview area (about 4 miles north of downtown) in my adulthood. "Ah ain't one o' dem suburban-people!" :) I also spent a fair amount of time *outside* Chicago on the East Coast, and I currently live on the West Coast. I've got a taste for some different professional and intellectual climates.
I don't count the south/west sides-- different dynamic altogether, as you alluded to-- my comments were actually based on my experiences as a member of the labor pool, as a Northsider, and (six years later) as a visitor. Blue collar town stuck with white collar jobs, still acting like a bunch of (sterotypical) steel and millworkers in terms of how they treat those around them. Pretty sad to see, actually, very sad. :(
Up on the North side, I found thinking to be more... advanced (cough) but there was still a distinct marriage to the status quo that puts a whammy on any real intellectual movement. When I finally started asking around, before leaving, people in a *number* of professions all told me the same thing: East Coast, smart but a bit uptight and conservative. West Coast, smart and laid back. Midwest, freaked out by anything new and by the time they finally accepted something "new" it was passe in the rest of the US. Chi was no exception.
IT is about innovation. Chicago is about things that are already there, and they hate innovation [direct.ca] (enjoy the link). So I left.
And strangely enough, I found plenty of (Chicago-food-missing) ex-Chicagoans saying the same thing. I'm clearly not alone in my observations.
The item I mentioned about the prewired building was actually from some rather ridiculous speech that Daley gave... it's so far back that I haven't been able to Google it, but at the time it was so obnoxious that I showed it to quite a few of my hi-tech associates out here (Portland OR). They all just shook their heads in shame. I figured I had to let some other people read it to be sure I wasn't losing my mind and mistranslating...!
I'll concede that there are areas where the people are nastier than in Chicago. But note that I never said Chicago was *the* nastiest, just that it's one of the top nasties (heh). It definitely has some good company, and some places just might devour Chitown outright.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear that there's more going in IT space there than before... maybe they can civilize the place. :)
I left California... (Score:1, Informative)
Not that I pretend that Nevada is the place for anyone (for goodness' sakes, I live 52 miles from the nearest town, and it has one shitty bookstore). On the other hand, I just bought a house (with 3 buildings) on an acre for $40K. I do what I want, I run an online business. I signed up to teach classes at the local college and I just picked up a non-profit web programming job that they'll let me do from home -- they're paying me the full salary they allocated for the position and I only have to work 20 hours a week. I used to make > $200K/year, and I couldn't imagine feeling secure enough to have a child. Now I can't wait for the benefits to kick in again so we can crank out a kid.
The one thing I did differently this time was I picked the place and then looked for my setup. I've moved to many cities for jobs -- this time I picked the place I wanted to live in and figured if I committed myself to a place for a while, things might start happening differently for me. People in a small town get excited when someone with skills (of any kind) show up, and I've met some people with whom I honestly think I'll end up starting other businesses/efforts with.
I don't really measure my happiness in $$ anymore -- hell, tonight I felt guilty blowing $20 on dinner.
On the other hand -- I have a high profile job interview back in SoCal in January. Not sure I'll go, but I don't imagine that I'd really take it. I might even just give the plane ticket back.
Now, if only my garden would blook and solar panels would magically show up on my roof, I could wear an "off the grid" t-shirt....
Oh, and to contribute something that's a little more on topic: I vet the Utah suggestion; strangely enough, a friend from NYC/SoCal is really happy in Kansas City. I've always wanted to move to Portland (my best friend lives there) but I think the weather would depress me. That's the one thing leaving either LA or SF: the weather there is so much nicer than anywhere else. It's hard to compete in that regard.
Good luck, anyway.
Portland is full (Score:2, Funny)
I found the problem (Score:1)
You messed up. If you had gotten an MCSE you'd be set.
- DasBub >:-)
The view from here is pretty... (Score:1)
Aside from that, check hospitals. They LOVE software engineers. I believe many of the ones that would be interested, however, are in your area. Go figure.
Another good bet would be colleges and other schools, all the vocational schools pay very well to be able to say that their students are "working with the professionals". A friend of mine is making about 400k a year working at DeVry, all he teaches is Software Management (Whatever that is, I mean c'mon, "Software Management?").
In Soviet Russia... (Score:1)
Midwest (Score:2)
Avoid Denver, the houses are overpriced, and the market is very tight even for people with experience and education.
The midwest doesn't offer as many tech/geek opportunities, but they do offer very cheap land and houses.
Dont come to Toronto (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm not in your shoes but: 5 years exp, no college degree but MCSE, LCA, CCNA, LPI and now RHCE, and the market in Toronto sucks. I am working in a small company helping with the database, and the IT guys are practically fighting over the position. My 6-month long search in various sectors has received abysmal replies. (maybe its just the lack of degree)
I'm looking for an excuse to move to California.
Re:Dont come to Toronto (Score:2, Insightful)
So yes, the lack of a degree is a big part of your problem.
I have an MS and I'd like to live in Toronto. Maybe I can get your job?
Atlanta (Score:2)
Re:Atlanta (Score:1)
Nooooo. Don't do it!
Two years here and my wife and I are heading back to Los Angeles. Here, if you lose your job, you can spend six months finding another one. In LA the headhunters are still cold-calling.
Add in the fact that Atlanta is still living in the 1980s and there are almost no good sushi joints...
Re:Atlanta (Score:2)
Atlanta--
Don't just watch That 80's Show, live it!
Sushi?
What you don't like catfish?
i switched! (Score:2, Interesting)
consider Northern Virginia (Score:4, Informative)
3% unemployment.
While telecom has been nuked, the government sector is growing and defense contractors are hiring. (Can you say homeland security?)
You are halfway between the chesapeake bay and the Shenandoah mountains, so most people can find something (sailing, hiking, lazing at the beach, hanging out downtown) to do.
And, when bored, you can always go to the whitehouse and watch people protesting all manners of things.
I don't know, its okay down here. Housing is expensive by most standards, but still maybe half of NoCal standards.
good luck to you--peace and joy
--Pete
Re:consider Northern Virginia (Score:2)
That other coast (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't believe the common image of the state as a toxic hellhole - that's just the view from NYC (from NYC, you look out onto Newark and Jersey City, so I can understand the confusion). Most of the state is gorgeous, and the real estate prices, while not nearly the deal that they are in some parts of the midwest, are sane.
There's plenty of work as you get closer to New York, especially if you're at all inclined to work in financial or biotech places. (The New Brunswick-Princeton corridor is good too)
As you get closer to Philadelphia, the places that are hiring techs tend more towards regional offices of large corporations. (It's also my impression that there's a good deal of embedded stuff that people aren't allowed to talk about going on in Burlington and Atlantic counties) If you don't mind suburbia, I keep hearing that the Rt. 202 corridor NW from Philadelphia is a reasonably warm tech spot. (And I suppose I should point you at the local job website that found me my job [jobcircle.com])
If you head further south, into Delaware, you get companies that are all feeding off of subsidiary businesses surrounding the great DuPont, (or weasel businesses playing shell games with Delaware's loose corporate laws) and sales-tax-free shopping too.
I understand that there's tech. stuff both further north and further south, but what I've heard about both the NC (Research Triangle) and Boston area job markets is not encouraging.
Re:That other coast (Score:1)
Does it have to be US? (Score:1)
I did what you're trying to do (Score:3, Informative)
A few pointers:
Where to come to: East Coast (Score:2)
Of course there is. (Score:2)
If your self motivated... (Score:2)
Once you do this, and build the base and generate income than start to look at where you would most like to live, regardless of where it is (assuming it has the minimum telecommunications requirements you want).
If you want to live in a paradise, follow your heart. If the big city is what you want... go for it. The bottom line is become self motivated and innovate. Develop serious goals and follow through until you achieve them.
Becomming dependent on yourself gives you the ability to be independent and free to follow your dreams.
Aloha Nui Loa
Not so Bad (Score:2)
Beyond that, Columbus, Ohio is a great place to work/live. Ohio State University is a great place to work, and they are always hiring. Besides that Naitionwide Insurance, Bank One, Verizon, and AEP are good places to start in Columbus. In Cincinnati, there are a couple of book places. GE is big in Cleveland. Better yet, find someone in CA that will let you telecommute. Nothing like a CA income and an Ohio cost of living.
hahahaha (Score:2)
Well I have been to Kansas, which is in the midwest. You can get a really big house for 150-250k. Problem is you'll be lucky to make 30k, unless you work for a company in another state and telecommute.
I have lived in DC and Virginia. Your salary there would be better. Probably 60-90k depending on your skill level. Problem is that housing is more expensive than Kansas, and the commute is as bad as here.
I have lived in Florida, Boston, Lousiana, and several other places. There is always a tradoff no matter where you live. Truth is that the salary that you are making now, probably wont be what you would make somewhere else. It would probably be lower. So well housing would be lower, so would your salary and it all kinda balances it self out.
So what do you prefer? Earthquakes, stay in CA (Oh and they have earthquakes in Kentucky too, as well as NY, just not as often. [we are all waiting for the 'big one']). Floods, live near the Mississippi, or Texas, AZ, New Mexico, etc. Tornados, try the midwest like Kansas, Oaklahoma, 'tornado alley'. Snow? Then anywhere in the north.
After living in several different climates and visiting several different US climates, I find that I am happy'er here in CA. We have better restaurants IMHO then elsewhere and I like the climate. Yeah we have earthquakes, but look at the USGS and you'll find so do other parts of the country. When I was in New Hampshire, we had 2 small ones that shook the bed.
Look on local job sites (Score:1)
Thousands of jobs in Eastern Nebraska, Western Iowa.
Move here, we'd love to have you.
Re:"I want to move midwest" (Score:2, Funny)
Re:"I want to move midwest" (Score:1)
I've been hannitizing san diego by listening to loud talk radio in my car.
DRAKON YOU SPIN!! (Oreilly)
Re:"I want to move midwest" (Score:1, Funny)
I live in California. Earthquakes aren't bad. At least if something happens and your house is destroyed, it will all be in a nice neat little pile. (Well minus a fire, but there are precautions for that too).
Let's see. Move Midwest, you have Tornados. Now everything you own is scattered over 2 miles.
Gulf States and East Coast? Hurricanes and tsunamis. [disasterrelief.org]
Northeast? Fucking crazy blizzards!
Northwest? Volcanoes!
Hell, anywhere on earth? Possibility of a meteor strikes or lighting strikes or any other series of natural disasters.
While I could understand your reasons for wanting to get out of California, citing a natural disaster doesn't seem to be the most wise decision.
Re:"I want to move midwest" (Score:1)
I live in san diego which is quite near the san andreas fault line. In fact, i dont know anybody that has sufferred earthquake damage (maybe some cement cracking from minor things, but nothing very destructive). I know it happens but it is just VERY uncommon
I'd never want to experience a tornadoe!
Re:"I want to move midwest" (Score:2)
Re:"I want to move midwest" (Score:2)
However, we are hiring (in Memphis). You gotta know Progress, though. If you have to ask "Progress who", then just move along. And forget those left coast wages.
Re:"I want to move midwest" (Score:1)