Do Later LCDs Need Screen Savers? 223
bwdunn asks: "Do we need to run screen savers again to prevent the burn-in we saw on the very old CRTs? Dell's latest and greatest laptops, the Latitude D800 and Inspiron 8500 both suffer from horrible screen burn-in problems with burn-in visible after as little as 2 hours. Dell claims this is an industry wide problem. The high end displays from Apple also seem to have this problem. I have never seen this problem before 2002. Is this something new due to inferior LCD screen manufacturing compared to screens from just a few years ago?"
what can save us from burn-in? (Score:5, Funny)
Toasters (Score:2)
I wonder if anyone's ever going to make a freeware version of it, or a linux version.. I bought AfterDark because I liked it so much, and then I moved to W2K and AD was gone. I'm stuck with the "Starfield simulation" since then.
Re:Toasters (Score:2)
For that matter (the original) After Dark worked in Windows 3.1, too.
Re:Toasters (Score:2)
Re:what can save us from burn-in? (Score:4, Funny)
I wonder if Berkely Systems would be tacky enough to bring the song back with the toasters.
Re:what can save us from burn-in? (Score:2, Funny)
Re:what can save us from burn-in? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:what can save us from burn-in? (Score:5, Funny)
My mac heritage is starting to show again.
--Dan
Re:what can save us from burn-in? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:what can save us from burn-in? (Score:3, Informative)
Well I'll be damned [infinisys.co.jp]. Too bad it doesn't have any of the classics, and the reviews are generally negative, it seems.
--Dan
Re:what can save us from burn-in? (Score:2)
Cheers,
Costyn.
Re:what can save us from burn-in? (Score:4, Informative)
They already are...again. [jwz.org]
Re:what can save us from burn-in? (Score:3, Funny)
It's POWWWWDEERRREEDD TOAAASSSSTTTT MAAAANNNNN!!!!!
Bringing delicious Powdered Toast from his pits, to magically coat your LCD and prevent burn-in! And kids! It tastes great, too!
sounds crazy (Score:4, Interesting)
Ummm... (Score:5, Funny)
You sure they're not just burnt in?
Re:Ummm... (Score:2)
Re:sounds crazy (Score:4, Interesting)
I've also seen some newer ATMs have screen saver thingies that flash around the banks promos and options which I assume is to reduce burn, but could just be intended to be cheap advertising.
Re:sounds crazy (Score:2)
Re:sounds crazy (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah. Me to. My LCD has this blue tint burned into it with a hint of lots white text numbers and something that says something about pressing Ctrl-Alt-Del.
Re:sounds crazy (Score:2)
We've been observing this problem too (Score:5, Informative)
Doesn't appear to be true, sadly. A number of displays are now starting to get a burnt-in image of the login window.
Time to update the login manager scripts with a small call to xscreensaver, methinks..
Re:We've been observing this problem too (Score:2)
Well, if the PC is working, the screensaver will show. If the PC is dead, no screensaver will show. So... why turn it off?
Re:We've been observing this problem too (Score:2)
xset dpms force off
Re:We've been observing this problem too (Score:2)
2) set it up so that the screen saver runs for ~12 hours before shutting off the screen
The answer is in the fourms... (Score:5, Informative)
Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:3, Informative)
Is this a recent development? Back in December I bought a Dell laptop. In January, the screen went out. I called Dell, and two days later I recieved a box to ship the laptop back to Dell. I sent it back out on a Friday and on Monday I had a working laptop. No fees no nothin.
Are you just being sarcastic?
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
You are a fucking idiot.
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Are you going to say "Yo mama!" too?
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
1) You are a fucking idiot
2) You don't know that you are a fucking idiot
therefor, I must try to ma
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
So, in other words, you are a 'fucking idiot'.
" That is to say, while I have no evidence of anything else.."
Yeah, you wouldn't want to make a judgement after finding out all you can or anything.
"... I do have evidence of two things: 1) You are a fucking idiot"
Let's see... I made a comment that you forgot to post anonymously when flaming an AC over a comment that was
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Psst. No you didn't.
You're really full of shit, you know that? Here you are, calling NG an idiot, and lying through your teeth throughout it all. Ironically, if you were to call yourself a fucking idiot, I wouldn't come to your defense!
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
You know, you remind me of that Peck dude from Ghostbusters. Remember him? He was from the EPA. He didn't know anything about the Ghostbusters, so he made up wild accusations about them and tried to shut them down. He never provided a shred of evidence. He never even tried to understand their business. He was a hotheaded ignorant man who thought he knew more than everybody else.
Yep, you remind me of him.
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Because you haven't posted any evidence?
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Judging from his silence now, I'd say you nailed it. Fucking-Idiot-Boy couldn't back up his claim.
I still think it's funny he called you an idiot because he didn't understand the whole posting anonymous thing. Duh.
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
I'm quite aware of what I'm talking about. You haven't defended yourself other than saying "I have evidence I have evidence".
" I'll go ahead and upgrade you to "Also a fucking idiot", congrats!"
Fine with me. It's hard to take anything you're saying very seriously, especially when you won't take any time to explain yourself.
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
I went back to the beginning of the thread where you first called NG an idiot and read downward. I'm confident that I read every thing that you and he both said, and I don't see where you displayed any evidence. The closest thing I could find was a reference to you not understanding his 'yo mama' comment. (Which did make sense btw, he was equating your calling him a 'fucking idiot' to a worthless insult
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
I would think, from the rest of your post, that you are starting to understand. But no, you don't, you're still.. a fucking idiot.
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
" you can't seem to comprehend that there are ways of showing evidence which do not involve writing out descriptions of the evidence."
Well, you've provided evidence that you're a fucking idiot. When are ya going to learn to keep your lies straight? heh
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
It's only obvious if we believe your lies.
" But no, you don't, you're still.. a fucking idiot."
Is that the best education your mother gave you?
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
But then, you seem to live in a country where the best education on such matters is given by a mother(!?), so you've probably just been raised to refuse everything which calls you a fucking idiot, no matter how true it is.
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Heh you fucking idiot.
"I have produced lengthy evidence which you have chosen to ignore..."
Hmm, I'm not sure you quite get it. So let me show it to you again to give you a little more time to comprehend.
"I have produced lengthy evidence which you have chosen to ignore..."
And, one more time, just for good measure here:
"I have produced
Damn you're thick! Heheehe.
Oh, and for added
Re:Sounds like a new Dell Profit Center to me... (Score:2)
Ouch! Ha!
Thanks for pointing this out dude. He just walked right into that.
Ick! Screensavers!? (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you drive an SUV too?
Re:Ick! Screensavers!? (Score:5, Funny)
The Uptime Fashion Police are working on a rigorous ostricization program, however. It's just not cool to turn one's PC off, and it defeats the main purpose of running Linux.
Re:Ick! Screensavers!? (Score:3, Funny)
Yes. Really. [compholio.com]
Re:Turning monitor off (Score:2, Informative)
My mother, for instance, wastes more power than she saves by going around turning off all her fluorescent lights. Aren't LCD monitors designed in the same way? They only use power when they are updated?
Re:Turning monitor off (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Turning monitor off (Score:2, Insightful)
Yep, but they are still worn if left on. A standard light bulb has life time of about 6000 hours and say it takes one hour off the life time every time it's turned on. If the light is continuously off for at least 2 hours by average it's more economical to turn off the light - especially if replacing it is expensive. Having special electronics to
Re:Turning monitor off (Score:2)
But the efficiency will be terrible as a cooler bulb puts out a much higher fraction of infrared.
It depends. One way to get lower power is to use a thinner filament (thinner = more electrical resistance). Those filaments do tend to be more fragile. On the other hand, small bulbs in instrument panels last a very long time indeed.
Re:Turning monitor off (Score:5, Interesting)
Go get yourself a meter like the WattsUp [doubleed.com] and gather some stats. In my experience, for computers there is an initial power surge that is maybe 2-3x normal draw, and lasts anywhere from 20 seconds to a couple of minutes. So worst case, if you will be turning your computer on again within 6 minutes, you probably should leave it on. Otherwise, turning it off will save power.
For screens, it's more complicated; CRTs draw more while warming up, but only for 15 seconds or so. But they draw less when showing a fully black screen, and different resolutions draw different amounts. Also, modern CRTs have assorted sleep modes. So whether or not to turn off a CRT depends on your usage patterns. For LCDs, I have no data.
I was also interested to note that high CPU usage produces measurable extra power usage. On a dual-processor P3/733 system, each processor pulls an extra 10 watts under load. So it turns out that things like SetiAtHome aren't free.
My mother, for instance, wastes more power than she saves by going around turning off all her fluorescent lights.
A common misconception, but not true. See this article [lightingdesignlab.com] for the details. They recommend leaving them on if you'll need them again within 15 minutes. But this isn't because of power usage; it's because turning them off and on too often reduces bulb life.
Aren't LCD monitors designed in the same way? They only use power when they are updated?
You'll note that in a dark room, you can see the LCD just fine. This means that it's producing light, which takes power. According to this week's Economist, "an LCD is only 10-15% efficient at converting energy from its power source into a readable image."
Re:Turning monitor off (Score:2, Informative)
This is because rathering then executing self: jmp $self in the idle loop, the operating system typically uses the HLT instruction which puts the CPU into a low power (unclocked) state until an interrupt is received (typically the timer interrupt, meaning the scheduler needs to
Re:Turning monitor off (Score:3, Informative)
My workstation starts up with both fans running full power, then when the OS comes on line and realizes it has only one CPU (out of potential 2) and one graphics board (out of a potential 3) it switches the fans down to half speed (it may even switch one of them off altogether).
On higher end machines, the OS support getting actual fan rpm with a syscall
Re:Turning monitor off (Score:2)
While I have no data on LCDs, the key elements are the panel itself (which requires power to be set in an opaque mode, transparent shouldn't draw any) and one or more fluorescent lights. The lights are a big energy draw from my experience, which is why laptops have a brightness setting, and turn the screen off fairly quickly in power-saving modes. I typically get 1.5
Re:Turning monitor off (Score:2)
He! I had a good example of that a couple weeks ago. I built a cluster [gdargaud.net] of 12 PCs with 2 AMD Athlon 2400+ each, running OpenMosix. I had tested it in small chunks so I knew it could run. I moved everything over to the final destination, a 3000VA UPS, and invited my boss to come throw the switch.
It started perfectly and I started demonstrating the power of 30Gflops of AMD CPU working together: I started a script to r
Re:Turning monitor off (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Ick! Screensavers!? (Score:2)
If the monitor is an LCD screen, it very well may be powered by a wall-wart or brick type transformer. Even when turned off, there is some power draw. Just how many watts does an LCD display transformer draw anyway? (I don't actually know.) 20 watts? 40 watts? And how much is this vs. a CRT?
When an LCD turns off it's backlight, or goes into "sleep" mode, how much power does it draw? If it were a tiny amount, like a
Article (in German) with picture of burn-in (Score:5, Informative)
Black pixels causing the burn-in? (Score:2, Interesting)
If that's the case, then dark screensavers would not actually help as I previously thought.
Re:Black pixels causing the burn-in? (Score:4, Interesting)
So whereas on a CRT, an "activated" pixel corresponds to a bright spot (it's where electrons are hitting the screen and making it fluoresce), on an LCD activating the pixel makes the area dark. Each pixel is transparent until an electric field is applied to line up the liquid crystals. This polarises the light coming through and depending on the degree of polarisation, the transmitted light is blocked by a cross-polarised layer on the screen.
Presumably "burn-in" occurs when the LCD fails to completely return to its non-polarising state. I'd guess this is because the screen builds up some electric charge in those areas, like a capacitor.
If that's correct, then all that's needed is a "degauss"-type function on the screen that neutralises any built-up charges.
Dell C810 – Sometimes you are only a warning... (Score:4, Informative)
Industry problem my assâ¦
Re:Dell C810 – Sometimes you are only a warning. (Score:4, Interesting)
They are not durable, they don't perform well compared to the competition, are poorly built, and (with a few exceptions) weigh a ton. While Dell's Inspiron line isn't exactly great, they're priced accordingly.
The high-end notebooks from other companies, however, such as the IBM thikpad do indeed show improved quality which reflects their high(er) price. If you've ever used or felt one, you can see that they are very sturdily built.
When all else fails, you could always get an iBook. Cheap,
and well-built to boot.
Re:Dell C810 – Sometimes you are only a warning. (Score:5, Interesting)
If you don't get any value from having multiple identical machines, then you don't want to buy Dell Latitudes. They don't offer anything of value to you. But don't act as if that means they don't offer anything of value to anyone.
Turning Off Screen (Score:5, Interesting)
I bought a Dell Inspiron 5000E about three years ago (they are no longer made) with the expensive 1600x1200 LCD display.
Luckily, it doesnt have this problem. Ive used it every day for three years and not had any burn-in. None. Zero. Zip.
Another reason I'm glad my LCD doesn't have this problem is this: the energy saver just turns off the backlight. I can shine a bright flashlight on the display and see that the liquid crystals are actually still displaying the screen. Once I even moved the mouse pointer around while the backlight was off, and I could see it with the flashlight. (There is a button which turns off the backlight. It is positioned so that shutting the lid pushes it.)
Some screen savers also have a tendency to use the same areas of the screen, so watch out. "Blank Screen" is probably best because it really does set all the pixels to black, whether the backlight is on or not.
I wonder whether it is black or white which causes the pixels to "fade."
Re:Turning Off Screen (Score:2)
Depends on how the display is made (Score:5, Informative)
Actually it can be done either way. A liquid crystal, when powered, rotates the polarization of light 90 degrees. When unpowered it has no effect. So, a LCD display is made from two polarizers and a layer of liquid crystals. Consider this:
Whether white or black is powered depends on the way the display is made.
POWER BUTTON vs Laziness (Score:4, Insightful)
(1) I've set up my screensaver to power off the screen after 5 minutes of inactivity.
(2) I press the power button to turn the screen completely *OFF* when stepping away from my desk - even if it's only for an hour at lunch.
These strange manual power-saving methods of pressing a switch.. it's strange, I tells ya.
Re:POWER BUTTON vs Laziness (Score:2)
Not totally burned in. (Score:3, Informative)
Cut and paste from the docs ... (Score:5, Funny)
3.1 - Q. I have noticed that my screen is showing some burn in when left with the same image for a long period of time. I thought LCDs were immune to 'burn in'. What should I do?
A. In the event of a mild or even strong burn in, unplug your LCD, lift it off the table and orient it with the screen down, parallel to the Earth. Now shake it all around. The silver powder in the unit will spread all around, returning your display to the original condition. When putting the display back on your desk remember that the two knobs go on the bottom.
-:-
Oh wait, that was from my Etch-a-Sketch.
That said, I read what Apple has to say on the matter and now I wonder - why are LCDs 'burning in' in the first place, and by blasting it with a bright white image to restore the screen
Yet another reason to run gentoo! (Score:5, Funny)
Kills burn-ins too...
---The Gentoo Troll
Re:Yet another reason to run gentoo! (Score:2, Funny)
LCD burn? Not for me (Score:2, Informative)
It's a 17" analog flat panel LCD screen. I've had the same desktop "image" displayed for an entire weekend one time (with no DPMS to power it off).
Checked it on Monday and it was like new. not even a slight ghost of a burn in.
This problem must be dependant on certain factors because it isn't universal.
What they really need are screen protectors (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What they really need are screen protectors (Score:2, Informative)
Re:What they really need are screen protectors (Score:4, Funny)
More important than burn-in (Score:4, Informative)
Burn in an image you at least like ... (Score:3, Funny)
Laptop Rule One: Laptops have legs and will run away as soon as you turn your back on one. especially once you've given it a lot of data.
Apple 15" (Score:2, Informative)
which hi-end Apple monitors have the problem ? (Score:2, Interesting)
Apple LCDs do have this problem... (Score:2, Informative)
-Ryan
yeah.. (Score:2)
You shouldn't use a screensaver on LCD! (Score:4, Informative)
I never did understand screensavers...sure they keep burn in down, but your still displaying something on your screen, which does cause some burn in (just let it show the screen saver for 20 years!
Why is your screen shedding light anyway? (Score:2)
The only real excuse for screen savers in this age of DPMS enabled monitors (and don't even try to say your LCD screen doesn't have it) is for locking the workstation while you go take a piss. So I say again, what's your screen doing on after 10 minutes idle anyway?
Re:Why is your screen shedding light anyway? (Score:2)
No, you don't but... (Score:2)
[ot] Energy saving CRTs and burn in (Score:2)
Jayzus! Just when I was going to buy... (Score:2)
a flat screen (finally) to replace my huge-ass CRT, this kinda crap comes up. Are there any decent flats with decent response time (for gaming) that don't cost an arm and a leg AND don't suffer this burn-in crap?
The prices for flats have gotten into the reasonable range but now they suck and aren't worth the price at all?
Re:What about the powerbooks (Score:2)
Unless you mean that your 4 year old powerbook has a very dark screen.. if that is the case, that would be caused by a fading backlight. One of the very unfortunate side effects of owning an LCD.