Hot-Swapping IDE Drives? 122
Patman asks: "I've recently taken a new job where I'll need to be making drive images and such for quite a few IDE drives - say a few a day. I need the ability to 'hot-swap' IDE drives into a running Linux or Windows system. The systems that I'm using are fairly standard IBM desktop PCs, I've found references on Google to IDE->USB converter cables and IDE->USB converter boxes.
Does anyone have experience with those? Some come with drivers for Windows - has anyone used them under Linux? Does the mass storage USB code deal with them accurately? Barring that, does anyone have any other ideas? External hot-swapping would be ideal, although an internal solution would be doable, too."
Delayed write bug in Win2k (Score:5, Informative)
I can't seem to find any fix, the driver software doesn't permit caching to be disabled in the advanced properties box, so it's rendered an otherwise fine 120 GB Western Digital drive as an expensive paper weight, at least as far as Windows is concerned.
From what I've been able to read, it appears that Linux knows better, and respects the 128k per packet limit, and doesn't have this issue, but I've not confirmed that yet.
It's a bitch to be doing a backup (using copy) of 45 Gb of photos, and lose a few along the way.
--Mike--
Re:Delayed write bug in Win2k (Score:2)
Zips are too small for alot of business while tapes are too expensive, slow, and have issues.
We really aren't looking for a solution that can handle MASSIVE transfers. If it maxed out at 20-40gb that would be just fine.
In any case we finally settled on usb enclosures. The enclosures had no ventilation so I was
Re:Delayed write bug in Win2k (Score:3, Informative)
Of course, the units sold as USB drives are engineered for a specific drive to work with a specific enclosure so hopefully they'll avoid the issues you discuss through some other means (such as a proprietary driver that fix
FYI: As far as drivers go... (Score:3, Informative)
Forget drivers... the only difference is the productID when installing. The install CD contains the exact same files, and the service packs are exactly the same. Hell, they even use the same kernel binary.
It just artificially limits the number of CPUs and RAM.
So whatever is true for Professional will automatically be true for Server, and vice versa.
You should really be looking at something centralized like Retrospect (which isn't too expensive, unlimi
Re:FYI: As far as drivers go... (Score:3, Insightful)
Professional and Server are slightly different. While yes, there's just a bunch of tweaking parameters in the registry, and some other parameters which control special licensing, at the simplest level there are packages which simply do not exist in Professional which exist in Server e.g. Active Directory, IIS, Message Queueing, stuff like that.
For the purpose of drivers and hardware support, yeah, they're identical.
BTW, some packages artificially impose licensing restrictions depending on whether you'r
Okay, sure. (Score:1)
[tuwien.ac.at]
NTSwitch... it can turn Pro into Server without issue.
Also of note, it apparently turns XP into an incomplete beta of
And as for the install CDs, well maybe you're right about the packages' presence on the disk. But it really is the only difference. All you have to do is run the change tool, pop in the 2k server CD, and install
Re:FYI: As far as drivers go... (Score:1)
Re:FYI: As far as drivers go... (Score:1)
Re:FYI: As far as drivers go... (Score:1)
Re:FYI: As far as drivers go... (Score:2)
Those are behavioral differences. (Score:2)
The driver is making an incorrect assumption (probably about per-cpu locks or something). In fact, it might be a good way to weed out bad drivers, switching mode to Advanced Server and seeing what sticks.
I've always had trouble with ATI's drivers, especially video capture stuff on anything but a single-cpu system running 98.
Re:Delayed write bug in Win2k (Score:5, Interesting)
This only happens on large transfers (say dd of a 5 or 20gb drive, or cp of the files). Small files or copying one a small number of files works fine. The drives I use are from Maxtor; 1 120gb, and another 40gb.
Really #@#@$ me off. If anyone has encountered this with the 2.4.22 and earlier kernels and knows a fix (even if "move to 2.6.x") I'd appreciate knowing it!
It can't be the drives since I've used different ones (unless Maxtors have some generic problem).
It can't be the bus since I've used USB, USB 2, and Firewire.
It can't be the chipset since the two cases use different chipsets from different manufactureres (and yes, I checked that they were supported before purchase).
It can't be the machine itself since I've tried connecting it to a couple different systems (all Intel, one Celeron 1.4g desktop, another PIII 500 laptop).
Tried formatting the drives in the external case, and reformatting them in the desktop first.
Any ideas? (Score:2)
Re:Any ideas? (Score:2)
Re:Delayed write bug in Win2k (Score:2, Informative)
The strangest thing I see is that the drive seems to disconnect from the USB bus, and then reconnects around 2 seconds later. I have still to work out if this is caused by a hardware problem with the drive, with the motherboard (an Abit AT7-MAX), or with the kernel.
I also see timeouts, failed sector reads/writes, and other errors from the SCSI Subsystem. These only see
Re:Delayed write bug in Win2k (Score:2)
I've had the same problem. (Score:2)
Every once in a while, the drive will spin down most of the way then spin back up, down and up, click click, down and up, and the system will complain that I removed the volume while it was in use. This sometimes happens almost continuously, and sometimes it'll behave perfectly for hours without a problem.
Then something even weirder happened: Before formatti
Re: (Score:1)
Re:Delayed write bug in Win2k (Score:2)
I thought that too...no dice. One of the many things I've attempted as workarounds.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Delayed write bug in Win2k (Score:2)
I RMA'ed the first drive, the replacement worked when I first got it, but a couple weeks later the problem re-occurred. Basically I was using the external drive as a backup so wasn't using it very frequently.
Same problem - the backup would copy 50-100MB until it hit large file, then would simply hang and not write any more data to the drive - would have to power it off and back on.
Re:Delayed write bug in Win2k (Score:3, Informative)
1. Run Sync.exe (i'm sure you'll find it at download.com or something)
2. Remove/disable the device in Device Manager (right click My Computer, Manage).
3. Now disconnect your drive.
4. Connect a new IDE drive.
5. Go search for new hardware and it pops up.
Re:Delayed write bug in Win2k (Score:2)
Re:Delayed write bug in Win2k (Score:1)
Works very well. Ive needed the backups a few times so its tested ok for me too. I haven't overloaded it to see how much a day I could push but my backup strategy is sufficient for now.
Confirming: Linux does know better (Score:2)
The only odd thing it does it throws an I/O error at the start of a burn (I've only ever used k3b with this drive) but k3b says it's OK and the burn always verifies. I've never burnt a coaster on it.
I normall
Firewire (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Firewire (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Firewire (Score:1)
I've also had a smaller external 1394 drive that held a laptop IDE HD, and would run from either
Re:Firewire (Score:2)
I tried that once.... (Score:4, Funny)
Oh, you mean WITHOUT destroying your system? Sorry, can't help you...
L
Re:I tried that once.... (Score:4, Informative)
My guess is you removed the data cable before removing the power.
Procedure to Remove Fixed Hard Disks:
1. Remove Power Cable from Drive
2. Remove Data Cable from Drive
3. Scan for Hardware Changes in Device Manager.
No data loss will occur as long as no open file handles are present on the disk at the time of removal. Windows XP will detect and gracefully dismount/remove references to it. If there are open file handles, data in the write cache will be lost, and WinXP will freeze up for a few minutes while waiting for the IDE timeout.
Procedure to Add a Fixed Disk:
1. Connect Data Cable
2. Connect Power Cable
3. Scan for Hardware Changes in Device Manager
Windows will read the drive signature and make it available under My Computer.
Re:I tried that once.... (Score:3, Informative)
IMHO, removing or disabling the drive from device manager should ensure you have no open files and flush the cache.
Re:I tried that once.... (Score:2)
Well, that's why you don't work at Microsoft. People like you would reduce their profit margin. The average joe doesn't care if his files get lost now and then - what he really wants is more streaming video from his dialup connection.
And supposing Windows did close any open files and flush the cache.... Why would anyone buy an upgrade?
Honestly, those people who write perfect code don't write it for long. How many programmers have been put out of work by writing code that worked the first time, onl
Re:I tried that once.... (Score:1)
Or you could try selling your software as a subscription service...
And all of a sudden, it starts to make sense.
Subscription? (Score:2)
You mean like the big boys in the enterprise market? Like IBM, which sells multimillion-dollar mainframes and charges fees upwards of 100,000 per year to license the operating system?
On one hand, I'm glad that Microsoft hasn't figured this out - I don't feel like paying a yearly fee just to use my own hardware. But let's face it - Microsoft has been literally giving away the company when it comes to enterprise contracts - they sell licenses rather than lease them. Had IBM sold software, I doubt they
Re:I tried that once.... (Score:2)
There's a high chance that it'll work, but it still seems to me that unless a drive is designed for hot swapping, unplugging it from a running system has the chance of killing it.
Re:I tried that once.... (Score:1)
If you plug a hard drive into a working system, however, I have gotten unpredictable results.
I have had good luck with the USB drives mentioned earlier.. Most
Re:I tried that once.... (Score:5, Informative)
Hot swapping doesn't short things out (Score:2)
Just how does a data connection making/breaking contact before a power connection cause a short? It's not like the power gets shunted to a data line or ground in such a scenario.
Actually, what often happens is that if a drive isn't connected to ground, it can transmit signals at unexpected voltage levels onto the bus. Nothing that should fry anything, but i
Re:Hot swapping doesn't short things out (Score:1)
Re:Hot swapping doesn't short things out (Score:1)
Re:Hot swapping doesn't short things out (Score:1)
Funny thing about those Molex connectors: when you turn them upside-down, they don't insert fully (of course), but they go far enough (by tilting downward slightly) that the pins can make contact. And since one side of the plug is 5v while the other side is 12v, connecting it upside-down means that the electronics get force-fed over twice as much current as they were meant to take.
If the lighting happens to be dim and you can't see which way the plug is oriented... yeah. I fried an 80GB Seagate Barrac
Re:I tried that once.... (Score:2)
Just make sure you unplug the power cable first, and use an ESD mat, if you can.
FireWire (Score:4, Informative)
Re:FireWire (Score:2)
There are, however, enclosures that will support both Firewire and USB.
To what end? (Score:2)
Re:To what end? (Score:1)
This is a fatal flaw if you want to use it in any capacity other than RAID, considering the enclosures cost so damn much.
Re:To what end? (Score:2)
http://www.scsi4me.com/?menu=menu_ide&pid=3022&dis play=MB810-AKF.htm
Here is an extra drive tray!
(bottom of the page) http://www.scsi4me.com/?menu=menu_ide&pid=3211
Re:To what end? (Score:1)
Re:To what end? (Score:1)
Re:To what end? (Score:3, Informative)
Their online tech support is quite good too, replies within 1 working day.
To save time (Score:2)
Haivng to shutdown, power off, swap drives, power on, boot, etc wastes time that adds up really fast if you are doing more then a couple.
Plus you have the issue of stress on your cables, machine, etc.
One solution would be to get a removable IDE bay, and hardwire a switch to the power cable to it so you can safely power off before swapping drives in/out.
Re:To save time (Score:2)
Pretty much all removable drive enclosures have this already. The key lock that keeps the drive from being yanked out is also the power switch.
Old Removeable bays (Score:2)
I guess times have changed....
Buffering Bug in Linux (Score:5, Informative)
However, it took me a very long time to learn to set the 'sync' option in the mount options. USB writes much more slowly than a normal harddrive, and if sync isn't set, it is possible for the system to buffer all writes to the drive up to the point where it consumes most system memory, and the machine becomes unresponsive.
Perhaps this is fixed in 2.6; but it doesn't really matter. You are doing backups, the backup isn't done until it's all on the disk, so setting the sync option just means that your writes "seem" to take longer, and your unmount at the end seems faster. Without sync, you pay for the buffering in the unmount, which will hang while it finishes syncing the disk.
Re:Buffering Bug in Linux (Score:3, Informative)
You have to select "Code maturity level options" and say "y" to "Prompt for development and/or incomplete code/drivers". Then, under "SCSI support", say "y" to "Enable extra checks in new queueing code".
CONFIG_EXPERIMENTAL=y
CONFIG_SCSI_DEBUG_QUEUES
Re:Buffering Bug in Linux (Score:2)
You have to select "Code maturity level options" and say "y" to "Prompt for development and/or incomplete code/drivers". Then, under "SCSI support", say "y" to "Enable extra checks in new queueing code".
Thanks! That's probably it (hope). This had been driving me nuts for 1/2 a year or more (easily before 2.4.21) so I finally gave up a few months back and shelved my second drive case. This
Hot swap enclosure (Score:2, Informative)
If you can't afford that then a Firewire enclosure will be good enough for what you're trying to do. Make SURE to stop the device before unplugging it! You can buy Firewire dongle devices like the DriveDock [wiebetech.com] from WiebeTECH as you'll be wanting to unplug and plug lots of drives.
IDE = USB (Score:2)
It works flawlessly, using the USB storage module in Linux, with one minor caveat, ie. just be sure to umount the drive before disconnecting it(and wait for the drive to stop crunching - sometimes they crunch for a second or two after a sync, maybe because of the HD's own cache).
Re:IDE = USB (Score:1)
It works well under NT 2000 and Linux Fedora (RH), however, I had problems using it under an older version of Mandrake.
The big issue is, as mentioned syncing the drives, if you find away rou
Re:IDE = USB (Score:1)
I could be delerious, but I think I recall there being a kernel bug sometime during the 2.4 series related to syncing before umount.
You could try running sync before unmounting just to be sure... Or better yet, try upgrading your kernel.
Internal mounts exist... (Score:2)
Re:Internal mounts exist... (Score:1)
Can't quite remember how much it cost, but I'm sure it was less than "a couple hundred bucks". Maybe somewhere around $30.
Use IDE-Raid: 3Ware will do the job for you! (Score:3, Informative)
It is really well supported in Linux (and been since a while) as well as in M$. It supports Hot-Swap and Hot-Spare...
Re:Use IDE-Raid: 3Ware will do the job for you! (Score:2)
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi ? id=109618 [redhat.com]
But I happen to be an owner of a 3ware card, and I regret that I inherited this piece of shit. I would have preferred something that works.
Re:Use IDE-Raid: 3Ware will do the job for you! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Use IDE-Raid: 3Ware will do the job for you! (Score:2)
I do not know the exact model of the card, because it is a pain to get in there. It is a legacy machine that doesn't get much use these days.
I eventually got it to work by using a kernel that doesn't have the do_brk and mremap() fixes. Specifically kernel 2.4.21-4.EL, the
Re:Use IDE-Raid: 3Ware will do the job for you! (Score:2)
00:0f.0 RAID bus controller: 3ware Inc 3ware 7000-series ATA-RAID (rev 01)
Subsystem: 3ware Inc 3ware 7000-series ATA-RAID
Flags: bus master, 66Mhz, medium devsel, latency 32, IRQ 10
I/O ports at dc00 [size=16]
Memory at ed805000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=16]
Memory at ed000000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=8M]
Expansion ROM at [disabled] [size=64K]
Capab
Re:Use IDE-Raid: 3Ware will do the job for you! (Score:2)
00:09.0 RAID bus controller: 3ware Inc 3ware ATA-RAID (rev 12)
Subsystem: 3ware Inc 3ware ATA-RAID
Flags: bus master, stepping, medium devsel, latency 74, IRQ 25
I/O ports at 5440 [size=16]
Expansion ROM at [disabled] [size=64K]
Doesn't really say, like I said I inherited this box and hardly ever get scheduled downtime for it.
Re:Use IDE-Raid: 3Ware will do the job for you! (Score:1)
Windows XP has an option for Firewire. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Windows XP has an option for Firewire. (Score:2)
You're always supposed to go click the little 'safely remove hardware' thing in the tray, which seems to me to be equivalent to an 'umount' in linux, but I'll be damned if more often than not frelling XP tells me that the hardware can't be removed and that I should try again later. (wtf does that mean? write the cached data and unmount
Re:Windows XP has an option for Firewire. (Score:2)
Does this help? Sync [sysinternals.com] is a free program that assures that all information in the cache is written to disk.
However, the volume must not be mounted when you remove the hardware. Try running CHKDSK against the drive letter you want to remove. If it tells you that something is using the drive, make sure that nothing is: 1) installed from the drive, 2) or thinks it is using something on the drive. That includes open DOS windows. Also, it might help if the Firewire drive is formatted as FAT32. I've seen insta
Highpoint (Score:1)
USB speed issues (Score:2)
USB 1.x maxes out at around 1MB/second (12 megaBIT per second). For a 10GB image, you're looking at around 3 hours.
If you use Firewire or USB 2, you'll be okay.
SATA? (Score:1)
Just some thoughts
Seany
USB 2.0 / IDE adapters work good with Linux (Score:1)
3Ware and hot-swap drive bays (Score:2)
Using a desktop removable IDE drive bay, you should be able to accomplish what you want.
The only prboblem is the non-plug-n-play nature of these removable drive bays. What I want is a bay that acts alm
okay with identical drives (Score:3, Informative)
But since this method doesn't force a bios scan, it hangs if the drives have different disc/cyl/head geometries, or different partition sizes.
Re:okay with identical drives (Score:1)
for laptops, it's nothing (Score:1)
External firewire w/ pullout tray (Score:1)
3Ware IDE RAID cards do hot swap (Score:2)
Under linux it would just be a umount and then pull the drive caddy.
Win2k/XP... Dang good question. Under linux the 3ware card and attached devices is seen as a scsi device. Does Windows support SCSI hot swap?
Re:3Ware IDE RAID cards do hot swap (Score:1)
Under windows you can swap out drives on a 3Ware - we have RAID 0+1 arrays and RAID 5 arrays, and in both cases I can remove drives at will under 2000, 2003, linux (2.6 kernels as well as 2.4).
Newer versions of windows support hot swapping of nearly any device - I even hot swap IDE drives directly onto the motherboard controller (I had to do that to unlock my XBOX har
Granite Firewire Drives... (Score:1)
--g
Accusys (Score:1)
Two helpful utilities (Score:1)
--) It seems like some non-"hotswap aware" IDE controllers REALLY don't like having their drives removed... but some tolerate it.
--) You can really screw things up (even with a "hotswap" controller) if you remove a drive that hasn't yet committed the cached writes.
--) Therefore, be aware that you may need to disable write caching on drives you intend to remove
OR
--) Use a program that sends (I pre
Try a USB2 or SATA case. (Score:3, Insightful)
As has been pointed out, it's possible to stop IDE devices and disconnect them with the machine on, but this is like playing Russian Roulette. In a spec designed for hot swap, the ground and power connections mate first and disconnect last, to keep the signal connections from carrying any initial current surges. IDE/ATA has no such provision, and hot matings/removals might damage your drive and/or controller. (The same goes for PS/2 keyboards and mice! Just because it works the first 100 times doesn't mean you won't fry your motherboard the 101st time, when the connector goes in a bit sideways.)
Serial ATA on the other hand, does allow for hot swapping, and USB is obviously designed for it. If you can get away with using exclusively SATA drives, check out some of the Supermicro [supermicro.com] drive racks. If you're building your own RAID system, these things are the way to go. I got a Supermicro server case second-hand and have been extremely impressed with the thoughtfulness of the design. Well-engineered products are rare and special, especially in this cheaper-sooner-cheaper industry.
I recommend Firewire drive enclosures (Score:1)
XP Pro too..... (Score:1)
I was using it to stream MPEG2 from my PVR card.
The only way to fix it was to plug the drive into the mobo's UDMA-100 slot!
Worked fine for me - under Win95b.... (Score:1)
1. In Device Manager, disable the IDE Controller (single channel machine... yes, it's that old...)
2. Plug in the drive
3. In device Manager, enable the IDE controller
And the plugged disk became available. Note that the disk had to be previously partitioned and formatted for this to work.
To swap, just follow the proc
USB will work OK in Linux.... (Score:2)
Otherwise, SuSE 8.2 or 9.0 works OK with both IDE drives and other things such as CF Cards, which have a FAT filesystem and USB adaptor. You will need all the necessary things either compiled in the kernel or as mo
We use Genica drive bays at my work. (Score:1)
Should be no problem (Score:2)
Just umount the drive, unlock the bay, swap the drives, lock the bay, mount the drive. Works!
To my knowledge the drives must be identical because the BIOS only reads the configuration once - at boot time - and after that never again. The trick with identical drives works (I think) because the computer cannot tell whe
Re:Ahhh my eyes!!! (Score:1)
Thing about the website... I mostly wrote it in 1995 when a 14.4 was standard. Check WebArchive if you don't believe me. It is mostly for my own personal use as I have written custom web apps to do things like tell me what VHS tape a show matching a regular expression occurs on. And it is actually li
I don't have a mom you insensitive clod! (Score:1, Offtopic)
And my dad (well sort of), eh, well, I'd rather not talk about it.
(I mean 4hrs to compile nethack? What major were you at tech anyway... god.)
But honestly. Really. That troll appears like 15 times a day in every thread. Don't ever reply to that. Even if you think it's funny, or insightful.
Because really it's not. It's like replying to spam and ri
Re:I don't have a mom you insensitive clod! (Score:1)
I got my degree in computer science. But damned if that nethack distro didn't fuck my shit all up. The only thing I'd compiled at the time was my BBS, WWIV 4.21 with 100+ modifications in it (how I learned C, which I've now forgotten in favor of Perl). Recompiling my kernel is out of the question. I
Re:I don't have a mom you insensitive clod! (Score:1)
Linux ruined Linux for me (Slackware because I am a SubGenius... seemed like a good idea at the time.)
I'm sorry you don't like linux anymore. (Score:2)
I mean, do you need anything more than emulated games?
Anyway. What the _hell_ is SubGenius? It's so fucking, I don't know, lame + inaccessible + clique-y.
Re:Dissertation on the uselessness of Linux zealot (Score:1)