Do You Make $60/hr for Programming?

azzkicker asks: "I was reading some AP articles on offshoring. It talks about the struggles of out-of-work programmers and the shifting of jobs overseas [in the US]. Part way through one article it says: 'The average programmer commands $60 an hour in the United States, six times the rate in India.' I don't disagree with the Indian rate (USD $80/day, $400/week, $20,800/year gross), but what is with the US rate (USD $480/day, $2400/week, $124,000/year gross)? I know that programmers are billed out at high rates, but most of my programmer friends in Midwest, USA (years of experience and CS degrees) don't even see $50K/year. What is the actual rate most programmers see? Do you see $60/hr? Is the US rate misleading corporations into outsourcing?" Does offshoring really save corporations that much money?

rule of thumb

[voisine]

general rule of thumb up to $100k a year or so, double the salary and that's what the employee costs the company. Payroll tax, benefits, unemployment insurance, workmans comp, increased hr resources, etc... $60/hr sounds about right.

Just my 2 cents.

[Neck_of_the_Woods]

I know the best programmer I have ever had the chance to work with made 112k a year. Keep in mind these are "New York City" rates, where he was paying 2200 a month in rent. 1600 a year for car insurance, and 10.50 for a mixed drink at your downtown bar. Lets not get into the fact that he was working 75+ hours a week on average either.

Down here in Florida senior programmers are lucky to see 1/2 that at best.

Big numbers make for big headlines. No one ever puts 2 and 2 together.

My friend, could program a circle around 10 of the best offshore programmers you could throw at him. The problem is, they(management) only sees dollar signs, not quality, not the fact you are here on the spot, and not the kind of job your doing....so what if 6 programmers offshore can't do his job, they like the way the numbers work and are not bright enough to understand that they are actually hurting the company.

Again, what do I know. I am just your average government worker now, but I can zap you from space!

---typed for speed, did not check spelling or grammer. In fact I did not even read over it.

Data Sources

[zonx lebaam]

Its important to keep an eye on recent salary figures for any profession, but many /.ers probably have extra interest in programmer salaries Every 6 months or so, I search the internet for tech salary estimates, but have never been overwhelmed by how much [good] data is out there. Some of the surveys ask you to fill out your own data before they send numbers (which is fair enough). Many don't seem to have the numbers broken out into useful categories. A lot of the IT salary information that *is* out there is for web design, sysadmins, project management etc., but still don't focus on actual coding subcategories.

Does anyone out there have URLs of really good tech salary data? That focuses on actual programming? (don't just say "search google ...")

$60k in NYC is not much money!

[bluethundr]

I make $54k a year, plus full benefits (All medical expenses paid for my family, vision, dental, vacation, and company paid pension). This is a good job, but a far cry from $60/hour.

Pretty amazing. I work in tech support, which is a MUCH lower competency line of work than programming and I make just a bit over $60 a year, $72 with full dental/medical. Of course that is in New York City, where $60k a year is *NOT* considered a wad of cash!

My girlfriend makes $150k a year as corporate trainer, and (since she owns her own company) only works on average 2-3 days per week. And she has friends in her line of work who actually have the temerity to ask her "How can you work for so little income?". So, naturally, she thinks my paycheck is peanuts. I actually had a therapist tell me one time "Of course you have trouble making ends meet! You hardly make any money!" (naturally, I fired her not long after that conversation!)

I program for enjoyment and because I like to learn. But even though it seems like a far more intellectually stimulating line of work, I don't think I'll ever persue it as a career. ESPECIALLY if it would mean having to take a cut in salary!

Sounds right, for a senior level position

[wowbagger]

I make about US$40/hr direct pay - add vacation time, 401K contributions, medical, and I "see" about US$60/hr. Then I wave bye-bye to about $20/hr at least as Uncle Sugar takes his cut.

Given that I live in the relatively cheap Midwest rather than on the coasts, I do pretty well.

However - I have been doing this for over 16 years. I've been with my current company 13 years. I am one of the lead software architects here. I do everything from signal processing to OS design to systems to UI to test, and I do it damn well.

Sure, if you are fresh out of school, fuggetaboutit. Pay your dues, know your stuff, and be somebody your company can count upon to get the job done and you MAY be able to rise to my level.

Re:Seems low

[bay43270]

On top of the issues you mention, companies also like contractors because they fit in a different column in the balance sheet. Full time employees are liabilities. Contractors (even if employed for years) are temporary costs that can be attributed to specific projects.

Re:Just my 2 cents.

[stevew]

Well - you can come mighty close to this - and you miss some significant details. If it takes your company 5 engineers to do the job, and Indian based solution can apply 15-25 engineers for a lower cost! Then there is the work ethic these people have -it's significant! I'm not bashing the American work ethic - just commenting that the Indian work ethic is also substantial.

Oh - did I mention that I'm running an India based project? It seems to be going quite well. The real issues are a matter of finding experienced people in India that can manage the local talent. Then there are issues with in-experienced teams needing everything explicitly stated for them. 5 years from now this won't likely be a problem.

So - be afraid. Be very afraid. This trend isn't going to reverse itself.

Re:Just my 2 cents.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

5 years from now this won't likely be a problem.

5 years from now, your employer may not need a domestic "outsourcing manager" either. You might try being afraid for yourself.

Salaries.

[Anonymous Coward]

Lead developer, DBA, network admin, system analyst, "figure it out guy": $75k
2nd senior programmer: $47k
3rd senior programmer: $60k
4th senior programmer: $50k
Senior Network Admin: $55k
2nd Junior Admin: $45k
3rd Junior Admin: $42k
4th Junior Admin: $38k

Contrast:
Common Data Entry: $28k
Data Verifier: $35k
Office Manager: $75k
Regional Manager: $100k
Executive: $115k to $140k (they GET bonuses, sometimes in the way of $250k a quarter)

That's gross salary, not net. We have a decent 401k that averages to a 7% match. Health benefits blow and for a wife and kid it'll cost you nearly $7,000.00 a year, not to mention the $3,000.00 deductible if you actually USE it. Bonuses were supposed to be "regular" and "forthcoming" but that was bullshit as well. Other than that we don't have benefits and we're severely understaffed.

If you want to bitch about me posting anonymously get real. Any topic discussing salary should have every post made anonymously.

$150/hour...

[samdu]

I'm not a programmer, I'm a Tech Consultant, but I ask for and get $150/hour. I consider programmers' jobs to be much more difficult than mine. I'm kind of surprised that the programmers here are making so much less than I would have expected.