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Wireless Networking Hardware Technology

Using the GPS Features of Your Cell Phone? 45

Posted by Cliff from the everyone-else-knows-my-coords-why-can't-I dept.
travik asks: "I use a Nokia 3650. The cell phone already knows my co-ordinates (E911 service). It has Bluetooth. Why can't I send the coordinates using Bluetooth to my laptop, and use a mapping application to give me my location and directions to where i want to go. I've searched Google and also read up on old posts, no one seems to be doing it. Why?"
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Using the GPS Features of Your Cell Phone? More

Using the GPS Features of Your Cell Phone?

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  • E911 isn't really GPS (Score:5, Insightful)

    by PenguinOpus ( 556138 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @04:41AM (#8395448)
    E911 lets the service provider know where you are by your tower connection (and perhaps by other tower signal strengths). It's expensive to keep track of, but is required by law. They don't have enough financial interest in returning that location information to you yet.

    AGPS (assisted GPS) also depends on the service provider to calculate your location, but it actually uses real GPS satellite signals to do it. The signal strengths are uploaded to a server which does the heavy-lifting of figuring out the location. Again, this depends on the SP servers and they aren't going to be terribly interested in returning lots of location points back to you.

    Real GPS does the CPU work on the device. There are rumored to be a few phones with this capability, but I use a Garmin Gecko 301. $228, records 10K points, downloads via serial port (yuck), and burns a set of alkaline batteries in 7 hours (or less). IMHO, it'll be a while before location information is as easy to get to as the cheapest GPS. Battery power is just too valuable.
    • E911 is scary. Among other things:

      * Tracking where you make your calls from.

      * Constant logging of everywhere you go and travel through your life to within 100 feet.

      * Rembember the FBI getting the ability to grab library reading records, and mkaing it illegal for librarians to disclose that information? It'd be easy to do the same thing with private citizens ("Okay, you're the closest person to the area we want to monitor. Now look to the right. Is there a blond man possibly exchanging a bag with a wo

      • Re:E911 isn't really GPS (Score:3, Informative)

        by gl4ss ( 559668 )
        you don't really need e911 for that.

        it's possible to do it with regular old phones as well, the service provider can pull out the signal strengths to the nearest towers from the network and it has cordinates for them. this has been demonstrated to work fairly well.

        as to the original askers question, the phone doesn't really know where it is(as in any map cordinates or similar), however it's possible to pull out information on which gsm cell the phone is in. there's even a program that automates actions ba
      • while I allow you to go grab your tinfoil hat, the ability to triangalate your position via a cell phone has been possible in theory since the advent of the cell phone, this technology just allows you to do it easier. Currently most police dept dont have the ability to triangulate your exact location, they can however tell what tower you are connected to, and what angle off of it, should narrow your area down to like a 15 square mile area. I think the fear shouldnt be around the capacity of the phones, bu
    • Motorola iDEN phones (used by Nextel, Telus, and Southern Linc) have stand alone GPS receives in them.

      If you are in their coverage area the aGPS features are used to provide faster acquisition.

      But it will also determine your position if you wander out of the coverage area. There is even an option to spit out NMEA out the USB/serial port on the phone.

      It is available on these phones i88s, i58sr, i205, i305, i530, and i73X.

      On my i730, I have found the GPS receiver to be very sensitive. In a single story

  • It's.... kinda possible (Score:5, Interesting)

    by EnglishTim ( 9662 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @04:42AM (#8395453)
    I wrote a program for my palmpilot that queried my mobile (a T68i) for it's current cell. I was going to make this into a program that would give me reminders based on my location, but I never got around to finishing it...

    The big problem is finding a record of all the cell values and their locations - I never found one for my service (O2), although I was able to get a list of all the cells on the way to work, just by running the program.

    The accuracy isn't great, although it gets better in central London. Near Oxford Street I was getting a new cell every 100 yards or so...
    • That's a very good idea, care to share the results as I have no idea how I would go about this and it would be interesting to see what you did.

      I imagine that if cell information from your sevice was not forthcoming, some kind of distributed mapping project could be performed and the data shared.
    • There is a website run by OfCom [radio.gov.uk] that lets you put in a postcode and it pops up a map with all the known local masts. It only tells you who owns them, and plonks an icon on the map to show you where they are, but it's a step in the right direction.

      On the other hand, I know a guy who works for one of the UK operators whose job it was to run commands to the actual sites to find out where they think they are. Turns out a lot of lazy install engineers just put in (0,0) GPS coordinates when setting up site. In

    • Re:It's.... kinda possible (Score:5, Interesting)

      by spiff42 ( 718678 ) <sd@s y m l ink.dk> on Thursday February 26, 2004 @09:24AM (#8396436) Homepage
      I'm currently working on my PhD project involving location based services. From my research, I've discovered that a much more accurate location estimate is possible than the simple "strongest cell tower". Basically you meassure the signal strengths from all available towers (or access points), and do some calculations based on this information. Finally you find the best match in a database of location/signal-strengths, and interpolate a position.

      I first saw this technology used on WLAN. Ehahau [ekahau.com] uses this technology to provide location based services on WLAN, and it works great. In our test setup at the university, we get arround 1 meter error in the position.

      I've been in touch with a group of people at The IT-University of Denmark [www.itu.dk], who are working on using this technology on GSM cellphones. The biggest problem here is getting access to the data. The cellphone companies simply do not want to provide this information. Our collaborative guess was that they want to keep this information to themselves, probably to sell extra services.

      The main drawback of this technology is that a huge amount of calibration is needed to make it work. On WLAN our buildings have been calibrated in a grid of 3x3 meters, which makes quite a lot of calibration points when we want coverage of the entire campus. But the cool thing about it is that it does not require any extra hardware to do the localization. A labtop or PDA with wireless will do the job.

      /Spiff
      • The cellphone companies simply do not want to provide this information [about cell tower location].

        Some of this is security; a lot of these towers are unmanned. Sure there are physical security but someone malicious could go break down all the locks, destory or steal equipment, and cost the companies lots of money in both equipment and lost income.

      • I seem to remember a news article about a police case where the suspect's movements (or rather, phone) had been tracked in this manner.

        Additionally, radio amateurs have been using this method for years in so call "fox hunts". It has also been used for tracking down radio "pirates'".
  • This could conceivably be an intentional limitation to protect user privacy. It's known that Bluetooth isn't always secure; some other devices have flaws that allow anyone to read or modify their data. If anyone with a Bluetooth gadget could capture your phone number and GPS coordinates, it would be easy to map your movements over time.

    That's just an optimistic guess though. I like to think that techies do everything on purpose. But it's more likely to be a simple missing feature; they just never bothered

  • GPS receiver (Score:2, Informative)

    by Grand ( 152636 )
    If you have your laptop with you, why dont you just get a GPS reciever for your laptop. There are even bluetooth (teletype, navman, pharos) gps recievers for laptops if you dont like cords all over your car. You will get a much more accurate position. Im willing to bet the GPS in the phones dont update as often either. They are only just over 100.00 US.

    • Or if you already have a phone with (seemingly) built-in GPS capabilities, why spend $100 when you already have a GPS receiver? (especially if your phone is bluetooth, as bluetooth GPS receivers are around $300+!)

      What a mindless waste of money.

  • Well (Score:2, Interesting)

    by foidulus ( 743482 )
    There are already(at least here in Japan) a lot of GPS enabled systems that do that(they can even voice when you are supposed to turn), I've taken a few trips with them(alas to poor to drive) and they are really neat.

    As for why your phone can't do it, well, it might be a privacy issue. Imagine some dumb user randomly installing an app on their cellphone(as the installers get easier) that constantly broadcasts your position....somebody who may or may not deserve it, may get robbed/hurt/taken away to the
    • And then, of course, the company gets robbed/hurt/taken away to the evil lawyer of the super-victim. Although based on the lack of lawsuit activity from people harmed by software installs that leave vulnerable services/"features" on by default, maybe the phone companies or software providers wouldn't be liable after all.

    • As for why your phone can't do it, well, it might be a privacy issue. Imagine some dumb user randomly installing an app on their cellphone(as the installers get easier) that constantly broadcasts your position....somebody who may or may not deserve it, may get robbed/hurt/taken away to the evil layer of the super-squirell.

      Well since the output he is asking about is Bluetooth, which is very limited in range, I'd argue that anyone close enough to receive the signal announcing the GPS coordinates of the phone

  • Not exactly the same, but... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by oojah ( 113006 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @05:21AM (#8395613) Homepage

    This guy tracks his location by phone.

    Where is Calum? [umtstrial.co.uk]

    Cheers,

    Roger

  • Cell locations (Score:2, Interesting)

    by cL0h ( 624108 )
    When I lived in Australia, both of the service providers I was with provided cell information on the phone display. You just had to turn it on. This information meant I could go out driving, get lost and still figure out where I was by looking for the 'neighbourhood' displayed on the phone in my map.
    I haven't seen this functionality in Europe though. Dunno about US.

  • E911 with Cingular & T-Mobile (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    If your cell phone provider is Cingular [trueposition.com] or T-Mobile [trueposition.com], then your location services are being provided by TruePosition [trueposition.com]. Since Cingular [cingular.com] is now going to [eweek.com] gobble [cnn.com] up [cbsnews.com] AT&T Wireless [attwireless.com], there will probably be a huge growth in TruePosition services in the US as a result. There is some information [trueposition.com] available online but the location system is quite proprietary and not simply GPS. Since the location is actually determined from equipment in a telecom rack somewhere, don't expect to be able to hack your phone much to mak

  • Positioning Techniques (Score:5, Informative)

    by neglige ( 641101 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @07:29AM (#8396006)
    The cell phone already knows my co-ordinates (E911 service).

    Careful not to mix up different positioning techniques :) Your cell phones does _not_ know its position. The _base station_ of the network does. This is assuming that you are _not_ using GPS, but let the network find out the position of the device by
    • using the cell ID of your current radio cell - precision varies with cell size (100m to several km)
    • using the 'angle of arrival' (AoA) of the radio waves to and from your mobile device
    • triangulate the device with 'Enhanced Observed Time Difference' (E-OTD), requires additional base stations in rage
    These are just a few, there are several more.

    GPS, on the other hand, requires you to have a GPS receiver. If you have one, your device can determine its position. You do not require a mobile phone network for this, but you need at least 3 GPS satellites "in view" (meaning: you must see the sky, GPS won't work within buildings; there is "indoor GPS", but this is about creating 'artificial satellites' within a building).

    GPS gives YOU your position, and YOU alone, unless you transmit the information (e.g. to a map service). The techniques described above give your position to the network operator, not you. The operator then has to give the information to you or some mobile service. With E911, in case of an emergency the network operator reports your position to the emergency units.

    Why can't I send the coordinates using Bluetooth to my laptop, and use a mapping application to give me my location and directions to where i want to go.

    As said above, if you do not have a GPS receiver, YOU do not have your position. You have to use whatever service your provider offers (if any). To use the laptop you need a GPS receiver. Connect that to the laptop, install the right software... and voila :)

    Hope that helps ;) There are tons of information on this subject. If you'd like to have more details, I'll point you to some papers on that matter.
    • mostly right, but here's the diff...

      All cell phones sold now days have a GPS receiver built in. However, the phone still doesn't know where it is at. The phone simply relays satellite info to the towers. They send information they receive from the satellites to the towers/base station, where the calculations are done, and the resulting information is then added into the information about your call. There isn't much processing at the base station, since it usually has a pretty good idea of where you're at
      • All cell phones sold now days have a GPS receiver built in.

        Are you sure about this? Given that a GPS receiver is about the same size of a small mobile phone, uses the battery and is normally not useful to the user, "all cell phones" is too general. There are cell phones with GPS, yes, but they are the exception. Since GPS is an additional feature, the handset manufacturer would happily announce it in the specs or the data sheet...

        They send information they receive from the satellites to the towers/bas
        • it's part of e911, it's a requirement in the US... take a look at all of sprint's phones they have out now:

          Features an embedded Global Positioning System (GPS) chip necessary for utilizing the E911 emergency location services where available.

          The phones send it's GPS data to the towers, and thus to the base station. In all digital towers, the towers are able to guess where the phone is at already, and use GPS to focus in on exactly where it's at. However, analog towers, and long sets of repeaters don'

  • Solution right there: (Score:5, Informative)

    by AdamInParadise ( 257888 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @07:30AM (#8396011) Homepage
    WayFinder [theregister.co.uk].

    Basically, it provides you with a simple GPS module that communicates with your mobile through Bluetooth. Map and directions are provided by an online service and appear on the screen of your mobile. Neat!
  • Match GPS coords against a web server (Wireless Query maybe) to tell me my closest ATM from my bank. I get damn tired of paying mucho $$$ because I am using someone else's machine.

    You now have your instructions. Code this....
    • Orange (a mobile operator in the UK on a standard 2.5G SGM network) provide a WAP function called 'Where's my nearest?' This allows you to find your nearest ATM, pub, restaurant, cinema and even provides a little map showing you where it is. It can show you where you are, and provide driving directions of where you want to get to. The accuracy is to within a block or so for the location finder - in most areas it triangulates you to a postcode accuracy of N1 1 (where there are 2 further letter which more o
  • I also have a "GPS Capable" phone (the Nokie 3586i [nokia.com]), and have not yet found a way to use the GPS.. even after sinking ~$50 on a straight-through cable (USB on one end, Nokia connector on the other)..

    Sad..

    S

    • According to the likned page "Note that GPS [...] require operator and network support."

      Did you by any chance ask your operator ?

  • All CDMA has GPS, but not carriers (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mockojumbie ( 303033 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @11:09AM (#8397255) Homepage
    All CDMA phones in the last couple of years' generations have had GPS chipsets from Qualcomm, you can't get CDMA chips without it. The carriers OTOH, are waffling trying to figure out how to make money. All current CDMA phones must communicate with a SnapTrac server to using MS-assisted or MS-based; the carriers are not leaping to install these servers in their systems. We're authoring a Brew/Linux/PHP LBS system for a carrier, the first nationwide launch is still months away.

    You can download the location of ~all cell towers from the FCC
    http://wireless.fcc.gov/geographic/fcc_db.html
    (big files) as they are publically licensed, but you can't know the carrier's private ID # of the tower without matching the tower's license to what you phone tells you, as some do.

    The first test launch of a stand-alone GPS phone is several quarters away... The CDMA chips are basically capable, but need some extra hardware and firmware since they don't get a kick-start from the tower/server communication.

    Right now, if your carrier doesn't have the PUBLIC servers installed (they will not use their e-911 servers for commercial use for liability reasons) then you can't have GPS.

    And BTW, the carrier's servers do know your location because of the MS-* handshaking and communication (which allows the ephemeris calculations to be done faster on your phone), it's a question of whether it gets saved or tapped.

    It's---a-small-world-after----all---...

    • >>The first test launch of a stand-alone GPS phone is several quarters away... The CDMA chips are basically capable, but need some extra hardware and firmware since they don't get a kick-start from the tower/server communication.

      Are you saying that when I take my Motorola i305 and hit the menu button, Moce the cursor down 5 positions and hit select twice that it isn't my GPS position displayed? Sure looks like it to me.

      In addition the phone will also display my heading and velocity.

      OTOH, reception

  • miniGPS (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Phexro ( 9814 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @11:56AM (#8397747)
    Somebody mentioned this in passing, but didn't provide much information about it.

    It's called miniGPS [psiloc.com], and it's written by Psiloc [psiloc.com]. They make plenty of other goodies for S60 phones, so check them out.

    But it's not 'real' GPS, and only lets you know what tower you connect through. As another poster mentioned, the 3650 doesn't have GPS, and E911 is not the same thing.

    But miniGPS is quite cool.

  • Possible only on Nextel phones in the US (Score:3, Informative)

    by asmithmd1 ( 239950 ) on Thursday February 26, 2004 @01:25PM (#8398717) Homepage Journal
    Nextel phones have complete GPS chip sets in them that are capable of getting a GPS fix even when no network is available. With a serial cable you can connect your Motorola i58/i88 or i730 to PC mapping software running on a laptop.
    You can also sign-up for a free service like www.uLocate.com [ulocate.com] that can send maps and text descriptions of your location to your phone
    Every other carrier that claims to have GPS phones has the data locked-up in some way. They are trying to figure out a way to charge you per fix and have not worked out how to do that yet. Until then only the 3 or 4 911 centers in the US that have installed E-911 equipment can tell where your phone is. I suspect they will open it up after some bad PR. Imagine a situation like the recent abduction and murder in Florida where the girl has a GPS cell phone but the authorities can't get any info because the local 911 call center is not set-up yet.
    • If you're considering buying an i730 (Nextel) because of it's GPS features, think twice. Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible to use the i730 like you would a normal GPS receiver. The phone needs to have a VERY, VERY good view of the sky. I suppose if you're on a boat or in a large field, you might be okay. But using it in a car, even when sitting on the dash, looking out the window, it's VERY slow to get a lock, and when it does, it's not with many sats (which means accuracy is degraded). Also, you W
  • They probably aren't using GPS - they're just tracking which cellphone tower you're communicating with. And that's something you can do that using minigps [infosyncworld.com]

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