Ask Slashdot: Best Computer For a 7-Year Old? 423
First time accepted submitter Boldizar writes "My son turns seven next month and I'd like to buy him a cheap computer. I'm looking for the Slashdot hivemind opinion on what would be the best computer for a child. I'm looking for a computer that will teach him basic computer literacy, and hopefully one wherein the guts are a bit exposed so that he can learn how a computer works rather than just treating it like a magic object (i.e., iPad) – but that would still keep him interested and without leaving him behind in school. For the same reason, I prefer a real keyboard so he can learn to type. I don't know enough about computers to frame the question intelligently. Perhaps something in the $300 range that would be the computer equivalent of an old mechanical car engine? Another way to think about it: I'm looking for the computer equivalent of teaching my son how to survive in the forest should the zombie apocalypse ever come."
Raspberry Pi (Score:2, Informative)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Raspberry Pi pretty much what you're looking for?
Re:Raspberry Pi (Score:4, Insightful)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Raspberry Pi pretty much what you're looking for?
fuck no, it's not. buying him a raspberry would be like buying someone a nes to get him into games industry. buying him a shitbox x86 and loading it with linux would work much better for all the things the rasp could teach him. with raspberry he'd be stuck with the apps there's on it, clunky gaming via clunky emulators and slow response time for just about everything. it's not like he's going to be doing anything soon with gpio pins and such.
now, getting an used p4-era computer _and_ a raspberry might not be so bad.. but for a 7 year old, just get him some computer that's loaded with a real os and made of real parts. and some games, classic games.
I'd go with a desktop box and some modern monitor, real keyboard etc. that way it's easier to keep tabs on him without spyware - and there's the possibility to teach about the parts when some part fails and needs to be replaced.
Re:Raspberry Pi (Score:2)
Re:Raspberry Pi (Score:4, Informative)
buying him a shitbox x86 and loading it with linux would work much better for all the things the rasp could teach him. with raspberry he'd be stuck with the apps there's on it,
For 300 bucks it doesn't even need to be that terrible. A used or on sale dual core AMD machine or the like would be 'good enough', I'd put linux and windows 7 on it probably. Find a semi tech savvy friend and offer a couple of hundred bucks for their old machine when they're getting rid of it.
Just be prepared to buy something better in a year or two, once he has some skills, or spends a lot of time on it, it becomes worth investing in a machine that can actually do a bit more (decent GPU, decent support for an SSD etc).
There's nothing wrong with Raspberry Pi, but it's a whole other market segment - it's so cheap you don't ever want to do anything to it, because it's cheaper to buy a new one than repair an old one. If you're poor (really really poor), then Raspberry pi is the way to go. If you can afford 300 bucks then you'd be better served with a proper, albeit older, PC and maybe a raspberry pi on the side. You never know what the kid will take to, but he the Rasp is really really cheap for a reason.
The best choices would be an old office computer from where the questioner works, or used machine from a friend, or a clearance sale/open box. Don't be afraid to spend 100 bucks on a 22 inch monitor, because that can last for 4 or 5 years if you treat it properly, and there aren't really user serviceable parts in a monitor (at least not for a 7 year old) anyway.
Re:Raspberry Pi (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're poor (really really poor), then Raspberry pi is the way to go....
...the best choices would be an old office computer from where the questioner works, or used machine from a friend, or a clearance sale/open box.
Completely disagree.
Seven-year-olds need toys. A seven-year-old is going to be way more interested in a cute little PCB that you can hold in your hand and plug things into than an old beige box from an office.
Comment removed (Score:3)
Re:Raspberry Pi (Score:5, Informative)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Raspberry Pi pretty much what you're looking for?
fuck no, it's not. buying him a raspberry would be like buying someone a nes to get him into games industry. buying him a shitbox x86 and loading it with linux would work much better for all the things the rasp could teach him.
Saven-year-olds are already writing software using the Raspberry Pi. [raspberrypi.org]. It's say it would be absolutely ideal.
Re:Raspberry Pi (Score:3)
fuck no, it's not. buying him a raspberry would be like buying someone a nes to get him into games industry. buying him a shitbox x86 and loading it with linux would work much better for all the things the rasp could teach him. with raspberry he'd be stuck with the apps there's on it, clunky gaming via clunky emulators and slow response time for just about everything. it's not like he's going to be doing anything soon with gpio pins and such.
There's electronics toys for kids that let you build simple circuits, and with a very small amount of hardware (e.g. a breakout box) some of them could be interfaced to the computer and probably controlled with squeak or something, I haven't fiddled with my GPIO pins as I've spent all my time with my Raspberry Pi getting my eGalax-clone touchscreen working, which I finally managed once I found a nice article on how to cross-compile the kernel, which wasn't something I'd done using packages before, I've only built my own toolchain.
GPIO aside, the Raspberry Pi is considered to be roughly equivalent in performance to a P2-300Mhz, but with a much better GPU than such a system would have. That's fairly amazing considering how dinky it is and how cheap it is; you could easily pay more than twenty-five dollars for a P2-300 with a GPU. You'd probably get a 4 or 8 GB disk in there, possibly both sizes of floppy drive, and possibly some USB1, as well as some craptacular sound card whose only redeeming feature is a joystick port.
Barring all that get a laptop at a flea market or yard sale. It probably won't have much battery life but you can test it right there in many cases, and it doesn't take up much space or draw much power. When it fails you recycle it and get another. And you can get a much more powerful system with, more importantly, more memory. The big limitation of the Raspberry Pi is really the lack of RAM. 256MB used to be a lot, but it isn't so much any more. 512MB is pretty comfortable with LXDE if you only do one thing at a time, but 256MB is a cramped place to run a web browser, especially when you have to give some to the GUI. You have to cough up half of it to run XBMC...
Re:Raspberry Pi (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Raspberry Pi (Score:3)
fuck no, it's not.
I'm interested to know, do you own a Raspberry Pi...?
Re:Raspberry Pi (Score:2)
Another way to think about it: I'm looking for the computer equivalent of teaching my son how to survive in the forest should the zombie apocalypse ever come.
It sounds like he just needs to drop off the little tyke in the middle of nowhere with a slide-ruler, a compass, and a map.
Re:Raspberry Pi (Score:5, Interesting)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Raspberry Pi pretty much what you're looking for?
Two weeks ago I'd have said "no", but last week I got one of my own and I'm not so sure. They have far more potential than I would have imagined from the raw specs.
Today I'm going to say "yes", for three reasons:
a) You get a very visual, direct contact with the machine, you can even see/touch the PCB! (after grounding yourself...) Very good for zombie apocalypse.
b) You're also not going to be treated as a pure consumer of apps. Hands-on is essential (be prepared to help with the apt-get side of things).
c) If it doesn't work out like you imagined you only lost $35, it's no big deal. The keyboard/monitor will be useful for other things or you can cobble together a PC from old parts and he'll have a Pi and a PC to play with.
Re:Raspberry Pi (Score:2)
You're wrong... (Score:2, Interesting)
Get him a programmable Lego kit that will actually provide some feedback for him that a 7 yr-old would like. It's robot, he can control it, it has a language-like LISP (last time I checked) compiler that allows him to issue commands and construct sets of instructinons that will illicit specific behavior for which he's responsible.
And it's limitation is its strength. You're handing him a complex, task specific apparatus that's fun and offers little built in avenues for distraction. It requires some degree of focus, unlike a windows, internet connected game box.
Re:Raspberry Pi (Score:4, Insightful)
For many kids (past and present), tinkering *is* what's fun.
Re:Raspberry Pi (Score:3)
On the board that I had, I soldered wires from VIN to the USB connector's power pins and added the correct size capacitor. That way, my keyboard actually started to work, but sometimes keys didn't register or keys started repeating randomly (for example typing 'ls' resulted in 'lsssssss....'). This was not a once in a while issue, it happened on pretty much every line I tried to type.
Most likely this is because the processor is too slow, although I've also seen reports blaming the linux kernel.
Another huge issue, that has not, and according to the rpi people, will not be addressed is adding more memory, citing cost issues. The 256mb is not going to cut it if you want kids to use scratch on it, because after loading X you get a couple megs left of RAM. The most I could squeeze out was using xmonad, I got about 30megs.
I also have an MK802 II, that has 1gb RAM, 4gb internal storage, faster cpu, a case, wifi, HDMI cables, USB conversion adapter, and free shipping for $60. It's smaller than the rpi. It works. In fact it works with any USB device I hooked up to it, I can use chromium on it, even scratch runs at decent speed. That is what the rpi should've been. And if you add all that up, it's much cheaper than the rpi.
x86 netbook (Score:2, Interesting)
Small and light, with small keyboard, cheap and still quite capable. Pick one that comes with Windows 7 but that also supports Linux. That way if one OS doesn't work, you're not stuck.
Small keyboard (Score:3, Insightful)
Since you probably want your child to learn touch typing (using all fingers, always the same finger for the same key) you should get one with a smaller keyboard (netbook?) since touch typing is not possible if your hands are too small for a regular keyboard. (OTOH this could be problematic if he has to use full sized keyboards at school)
Re:Small keyboard (Score:3)
I doubt that's necessary.
I hunt-and-pecked from the age of 7 on a Commodore 64 and an Atari 800 (I loved the 800's keyboard). I took a typing class in high school (using actual typewriters) and had no trouble picking up touch-typing.
Besides, look at piano lessons - they don't put 7-year-olds on Schroeder-sized pianos. The kids adjust as their hands grow.
First...why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Firstly, I'd ask you WHY you'd want him to learn anything in particular, than - everything?
A computer is just ONE part of his life, if you want him to be "computer smart", you know...understand todays technology, just give into his curiosity, it's very dangerous to "force" a kid into anything, it's better to just let them stumble upon anything in their way, and support them there any way you can.
I'm sure it will come naturally. If he's a gamer, let him play with consoles.
If he's curious how these things are made, introduce him to a computer with a simple Programming IDE set up for him...like Python and SDL. (Just like we grew up with C64 and basic, you know...)
etc..
Re:First...why? (Score:4, Funny)
I strongly disagree. The OP is right, since someday in the future the kid will be a computer user, he need to learn now computer architecture. Everyone knows that without knowing computer architecture you cannot use a computer!
I did the same to my son when it came to the car; until the time he was able to explain me internal combustion engine and the operation of gas vs diesel motors, I did not allow him to use the car; I would be driving it and he would run by my side.
He still has not convinced me that he knows well enough about central heating, though. Until that, he is sleeping outside. I really hope he learns it before winter settles in.
Re:First...why? (Score:3)
Ok, you can ride in my car.
Commodore 64 (Score:5, Funny)
Get him started off programming BASIC, and then inlining bits of machine code. He'll be a natural in no time.
Re:Commodore 64 (Score:5, Funny)
I completely agree. How many of us started out with a C64 and turned out fine?
Re:Commodore 64 (Score:5, Insightful)
I did and ended up as a nerd that hangs out on Slashdot. Does that count as "fine"?
Re:Commodore 64 (Score:3, Funny)
C64 Bias. I knew it.
Re:Commodore 64 (Score:2)
Re:Commodore 64 (Score:3)
iPad. Specifically the new retina iPad. (Score:3)
My two kids (ages 3 and 5) have access to 6 computers in our household which are running various operating systems (Linux, FreeBSD, Windows, OS X) and yet they use iPads the most. I actually had to buy the second iPad for them because they were fighting over the first one all the time.
Why do they love iPads? Apps. iPad has more apps for kids than any other platform I know of. And it's easy to use too.
And for a budget: any other tablet (Score:3)
My neighbor's kids (ages 4,8,12) all have the same issue with their mom's Kindle Fire ... as well as their mom's iPod Touch. And all but the 4 year old have their own dedicated PCs. And they have a Wii and other gaming systems, as well ... but it's the Kindle Fire the older two argue about, and they've all been known to try to walk off with it when no one's looking.
(the one down side -- after various children have managed to buy new apps on it, passwords were set up on it ... yet, it seems that there's some key combination that a 4 year old can do when trying to unlock it on her own that will blank the device)
So there's no real reason to shell out $400 (cheapest iPad pricing), when you'll also have to consider the case (to shock proof it from tiny hands dropping it) any apps, etc.
Even with getting things into the $300 budget (the retina starts at $500), I still wouldn't do it, as it fails the other goal of not treating it as a magic box.
Re:iPad. Specifically the new retina iPad. (Score:2)
+1. TFS's reason for not wanting an iPad left me skeptical.
Educational apps are second only to games in numbers. Both of these app store categories cater tremendously to kids. Some of the edu apps are really great.
If you want the kid to play with code, toss in Codea [twolivesleft.com]. The language underneath is Lua, which is very easy to pick up.
Mid- to long-term, chances are that schools will either supply or require a tablet (likely an iPad) for textbooks, edu apps or whatever. Imho, don't fight this trend; embrace it.
That being said, wait a month or so for Apple's next event if you're not in a rush. Rumor has it that Apple will announce a 7.85" iPad. (As much as kids love to play with my own iPad, it's clearly too heavy for 4-7 year olds; a smaller one would be a much better fit for their tiny fingers and juvenile forearms.)
Re:Back to Basics (Score:4, Insightful)
This is absurd. First of all, the things you describe doing with the C64 most people will never do in their whole lives. The kid's not a geek. The question was what the kid could use to learn about normal non-geek computer use.
Second, when you were a kid and used a C64, modems, and a BBS, those things were the latest technology. You were motivated to learn because a C64 was something that you liked using anyway and you found it interesting to learn more about the same machine that you used to play Maniac Mansion or Elite. To 99% of modern kids, learning about a C64 would be learning about something that has no connection to anything he'd want to use outside the lesson.
The answer to this question is *not* "the same thing I used as a kid".
Home Build (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Home Build (Score:3)
Re:Home Build (Score:3)
He can get a computers for jackasses book and build a computer. It's frankly pretty damned easy to build a PC these days, because while there are many standards, there are many parts which comply with each standard, and for the most part things can only be plugged in one way and work no matter where you plug them in so long as you aren't forcing them. ATA was one of the last holdouts and it's all but over now.
Re:Home Build (Score:3)
So, building a computer is a good way to learn how to build a computer.
That said, I don't think building a computer would teach the kid the kind of skills this guy cares about. All you really learn is where the parts go. Modern computers modularize huge chunks of technology. So, you plug in a bunch of DIMMs, what have you learned?
Which is not to say it's a bad idea, provided both parent and child have fun. People forget that fun's main purpose is developing skills. So anything you do with your kids that's fun is not a total waste of time.
Re:Home Build (Score:2)
I did this with my son. He was 10 at the time, and a lot of it was lost on him but it introduced him to how computers work. He built the computer himself with my guidance, so really we worked together on it. When the computer had trouble, we worked on it together to fix it. Now, he fixes his grandpa's computer when its broken, he helps his friends with theirs and is overall a decent young tech at 16 years old.
If your son has the natural curiosity for it, just answer his questions, and guide him. He'll learn what he wants to WHEN he wants to. Its your job to introduce him to all the different possibilities. Let HIM pick what he wants to learn- then you won't be just teaching him, he'll be *learning* it.
Re:Home Build (Score:2)
Pretty much what I was going to say. If the OP isn't literate enough to help his son build the machine surely he knows someone that is. Make it a father/son learning experience, something you can both do together.
Not a tech problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, a lot of people are going to get on here and talk about their favorite computer, or how to get your kid involved in programming and hacking, etc. But let's be honest: Most kids at that age play games with a computer. Until they're a teenager, there's no strong need for privacy, so I'd say just get something like a mac mini or an HTPC, set it up in the livingroom, and then give the kid a wireless keyboard and mouse and hook it up to the TV. Kids will spill juice, food, and generally destroy anything you give them.
A laptop or tablet is straight out unless they're waterproof and can survive being run over by a car. or worse. Get one of those fold-up keyboards... don't spend much money on it either way, it'll die. And you might want to buy a spare. (-_-) For kids "survivability" is far more important of an attribute than tech specs or even operating system.
Not quite what you want, but ... (Score:2)
I've got my 7-year-old on a Nexus 7 ($250) paired with a Logitech Tablet Keyboard for Android ($50 - with a case that doubles as a stand for the tablet). So the total is the $300 you want to spend. No exposure to parts, but a complex interface to master - and with the keyboard he feels it's "like a real computer."
You're way off base. (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, you think an iPad is a "magic object" and a CPU chip isn't?
There's no such thing, and never has been. Unless you're talking a behemoth like a difference engine, or a toy like one of the Lego/Tinkertoy computers... how an electronic computer works isn't visible without at *least* some form of multimeter or oscilloscope... or for a computer of any complexity (read: any consumer computer past the mid/late 80's) a fairly sophisticated analyzer.
This is about as muddled and confusing a statement as I've ever read in an Ask Slashdot - which is an achievement worthy of note. You don't even know what you want to teach him, beyond conforming to some dogma ("no magic box") and ideals ("survive the zombie apocalypse") you've picked up along the line and now repeat as though they were sensible and logical observations of reality. You're the Slashdot version of a cargo cultist.
Re:You're way off base. (Score:4, Insightful)
Ah gee, lighten up. All of what you say makes sense, but there's nothing to be gained by making the guy feel like an idiot. Save your flames for the vim/emacs wars.
What I would do (Score:5, Interesting)
Is buy parts for a PC off of some website, get a case with a clear side. Build it with him, teach him the importance of discharging static etc. Let him put the pieces together, tell him what each piece does.
You should be able to get parts for a standard PC relatively inexpensively.
Load the operating system with him, and explain what it does.
This is essentially how I got my start, I was about 9 years old I believe, it was an awesome experience! My Dad bought the parts from a magazine, we waiting the grueling week for it to come in. He watched over my shoulder as I assembled it, making sure I didn't do anything wrong. My Dad is awesome for many reasons and this is one of them.
I applaud your effort to get your son involved at an early age, and with the right mindset!
Netbook? Duh and or hello? (Score:2)
I had an Asus 1000HA for a couple years, the whole bottom opened up to upgrade components. However, I believe most current designs aren't as tinkerer friendly as older ones.
Raspberry Pi for sure (Score:2)
Get him a Raspberry Pi and don't even show him how to turn it on. Just tell him that awesome secrets lie within and even you don't know how to pull them out. Let his imagination run and he will figure it all out, hopefully. I gave one to my nephew and he hasn't left it for a month.
Re:Raspberry Pi for sure (Score:2)
If you buy them one of the "kits" and give them all the parts and it comes with a preloaded SD card, that's cool. And it's still pretty darned cheap. Or you could replicate a kit for a little less money, but unless you have the parts lying around it hardly seems worth the effort.
Re:Raspberry Pi for sure (Score:2)
Well, some kids will go to town with that. Most kids will just see a piece of junk that looks like it fell out of an old TV set and wonder, "what's the big deal"? The Raspberry Pi is a great product, but you have to have some technical savvy to see how great it is.
Don't Coddle (Score:5, Interesting)
This article should be inspirational:
http://changelog.complete.org/archives/7562-i-introduced-my-5-year-old-and-2-year-old-to-startx-and-xmonad-theyre-delighted [complete.org]
The thing is kids can get stuff pretty quick if you don't put the fear of knowledge in them.
I hope you're not trying to live through him (Score:2)
Some "Jock" fathers do exactly the same thing, by insisting their kids participate in the same sports they did in their youth. If the kid actually shows genuine interest, then fine, go right ahead - but don't force your kid into some interest just because it was what you were into. As a parent, you have a chance to encourage your child to find out what he's interested in. And guess what, if it turns out he'd rather be outside playing with friends, in the kitchen cooking or building model airplanes, rather than futzing around with an old pile of comp-u-junk, you'd be a great parent to encourage him!
I'm old enough to have fond memories of building my own PCs in my teenage years, but I personally see nothing wrong with giving your kid a modern iOS or Android tablet and letting them just enjoy it without it having to be a learning experience. You only get to be a kid once.
Get a computer that isn't a PC (or MAC) (Score:5, Interesting)
So many here have the nostalgia of their first PC. Mine required that I program just about anything I wanted to do with them. I'd buy the magazines with fold-out programs in them, and spend hours typing and saving it to an audio tape. Then load it up later and play. Choplifter was the only game that I had to play that wasn't programmed by me.
Playing with the computer should require learning about the computer. The closest I've seen are the programmmable assembly-required robot kits where you can build what you want, then program it how you want. For the home PC, they made it so easy now, it's like learning about microwave communications by heating coffee in a microwave oven.
Re:Get a computer that isn't a PC (or MAC) (Score:2)
Seriously, who here became a techie because their parents did this sort of stuff? I can see trying to shove computer programming to a child that only recently learned to spell as the sort of experience that convinces them NOT to take up computers as a hobby.
If he wants to know how computers work and not treat them like magic objects, then get him something. In the meantime, keep the magic alive and get him a soccerball.
Portable or not? (Score:2)
If you want portable, I'd say get a netbook. Even though they get fewer and fewer, there are still some around. You'll have to find one on sale if you want to break $300 though. I'd also recommend installing Linux if you don't want it infested with all sorts of nasty stuff within weeks.
If it doesn't have to be portable, build one. Easily done for <$300 and your kid will learn a lot. And if he built it he'll treat it with more respect.
It's trivial (there are many instruction videos on YouTube) and for parts lists you can start at http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/04/ars-bargain-box/ [arstechnica.com].
Instead (Score:5, Interesting)
At 7, get him a set of throw away clothes and tell him to go out side and explore and don't get angry when he comes home filthy.
Wash, rinse and repeat...
Plenty of time for computers later.
Historically proven (Score:2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvsnftXXKdw [youtube.com]
Hand-me-down. (Score:2)
It's quite simple:
1. Buy new parts to build yourself a new machine.
2. Have your child help you assemble said machine
3. Repurpose the old machine for the child.
A gaming machine (Score:2)
7 year old? Face it, no matter what computer you buy him, what he'll use it for is to play games. So you may as well buy him one that doesn't make him look like a freak to his peers. Let's be honest here: 600 bucks will not buy you a great gaming rig, but it would buy a PS3, and amongst his peers that's way cooler than the computer you got him that makes games look like a slideshow. Which in turn ensures that your kid will view the computer with contempt.
I'm dead serious here. If you want your kid to get interested in computers, building them, programming them, find out what makes them tick, wait for him to come to you. Dumping something on him that is way off his hopes and expectations will probably just give him a very expensive dust collector.
Used iPad (Score:2)
Silicon Valley School Has No Technology (Score:2)
Re:Silicon Valley School Has No Technology (Score:2)
Something to be said for that approach. But clearly one this techie father is not open to.
Not Hardware (Score:4, Interesting)
Cheap, mass-produced products tend to be little sealed boxes that don't tell you much about guts. Once upon a time you could have a lot of fun fiddling with electronic logic [oldcomputermuseum.com], but now products are all based on little prepackaged ICs containing millions of circuits that are light years ahead of anything you can do by hand. So forget about a system that "exposes the guts".
I think the specific computer you want matters a lot less than the software you put on it. Nowadays, software represents the "guts" you want your kid to learn about. That suggests that maybe you should just get him a cheap Linux laptop, show him how to open a terminal window, give him a book on shell programming, and stand back. Kids are really good at making the most of that scenario.
OK, maybe shell programming is not something that will get the attention of a 7-year-old. There are a ton [slashdot.org] of child-specific programming platforms that might be the ticket. Your judgement as to which one would best suit your son is certainly better than anybody else's.
The Thomas Friedman column you link talks about an Estonian program for grade-schoolers [ubuntulife.net] that sounds kind of cool. But you seem to come away from it with the notion that you owe it to your kid to fill his head with technical skills so he'll be a competitive when he enters the job market. IMHO, that's a pretty good way to destroy a child's love of a topic. (I'm thinking of the unpleasant music lessons I had with my own father; my love of music will never be what it might have been.) You should focus instead on something Friedman says further down.
There is a quote attributed to the futurist Alvin Toffler that captures this new reality: In the future “illiteracy will not be defined by those who cannot read and write, but by those who cannot learn and relearn.” Any form of standing still is deadly.
That suggests that the imperative is not to learn a specific set of skills, but to learn to learn.
Re:Not Hardware (Score:2)
I made a mistake pasting the link to child-specific programming languages. Here's the link I meant to use:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_educational_programming_languages#Children [wikipedia.org]
anything thats BACKED UP (Score:2)
whatever you do however you do it make sure that you have an IMAGE backup of the computer (and keep it updated)
you can even make this edutainment by using a Red Blue Yellow and Green set of backup drives.
Also whatever browser you use INSTALL AD-BLOCK (and think hard about parental control software).
Netbook (Score:2)
I was in a similar situation and I bought my kid a netbook at Target for something like $230. He takes it to school and if he loses it, I won't kill him. Added NetNanny and that keeps him away from most of the nasty stuff on the 'Net. It's not fast, it's not open source, but it works reasonably well. He can surf, email, and make documents for homework and it fits in his little back pack. It's held up for two years so far. No complaints here.
The correct answer (Score:2)
A normal computer, but he always uses it with you being there with him to use it. You're a parent; that's a parent's job. Don't leave him alone with the computer.
And that assumes there's something meaningful he could do with a computer, which I doubt. His reading level probably isn't enough for the Internet or even Facebook and most sites don't want anyone under 13 anyway), and he's probably not going to have to do his homework on a word processor. Once he knows how to use a mouse and put a disk in a drive, all he's really going to need it for are games. Get him a Wii.
Non-magic Computing? SparkFun Inventor's Kit! (Score:2)
Rather than relying on the 80's BASIC experience, you can actually do better for your kid by buying the SparkFun Inventor's Kit, and helping him through every step of the tutorial. $100.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11022 [sparkfun.com]
To program the microcontroller, you can use a cheap, standard netbook, which will also help the kid in school.
Having gone through this myself... (Score:2)
...something of a subnote (not so small as a netbook, 10-12" panel is fine, 14 at a push). My kids loved K12LTSP/Fedora [fedorahosted.org] as a platform, it's cram packed with educational software, games and your usual desktop environment stuff; what it'll run on these days is pretty much what other people are binning because they can't get Vista running on it!
Learn to control the future. Start on Scratch (Score:2)
The important step I found with my children was to recognise that they can control what a machine does, and indeed design a machine themselves. I think this is more fundamental than any specific technology.
Don't buy a computer yet. I'm sure you can find a used one, or let him access the one you already have. Get the free software Scratch, which is a programming language. You can make animals talk, make cars drive in to walls, or calculate sums, all by dragging shapes around.
Also try some web sites which offer two special things: big data, and communications. Think of a question and search the web to find the answer. Look at your neighbourhood in Google Maps. Send an email to your relatives and get a reply. (some privacy issues begin to arise with Internet communications)
For a bit of hardware fun, get a Velleman kit and solder the components together. And back that up with the creativity of making just anything new in Lego. That can lead to other projects, or assembling a computer from components.
I'm cautious, at that age, about robot kits that promise too much. They're either not customisable in which case you're not learning, or too flexible, in which case they're too hard for the age group. Which is why I'd start with software. But I'm also cautious about "educational software" which will only confirm the attitude that he is a consumer and can only answer A, B, C or D.
20 year old Mac SE and HyperCard (I'm serious) (Score:2)
An old Mac SE or SE/30 with a standard set of software (Word 5.1, MacDraw II, HyperCard) provides the basic skills, in an obscenely uncluttered environment, plus an object oriented programming system.
I have a similar setup in my shed, that I still use.
A new bike (Score:2)
Check her classroom (Score:2)
See what she uses at school (assuming she's not home schooled), and use that as a baseline. My kids use Windows 7 at home, and my youngest uses a Mac at school (K-5 in my district use Macs, 6-12 use PCs).
As for capabilities, any 'modern' computer would be fine, and I'd suggest desktop to laptop, but that's something for you to decide.
If you are gonna take money out of your pocket, I'd suggest sticking with machines with at least a Core Duo processor (Mac or PC), and load it up with cheap RAM (4 gigs) and you should be fine.
An older Mac Mini with a Core2 Duo and 4 gigs of RAM would be reasonable for either OS.
I got my first computer when I was 4. (Score:3)
While it was the "family" computer, it was mostly loaded up with educational software for me. So effectively it was mine. And I could parrot a few bits of BASIC I was taught and adapt them slightly to amuse my friends. (mostly a string of PRINT, INPUT and IF GOTO operations). So I would construct simple choose-your-adventure type stories on it, where most wrong choices ended up in an untimely demise. (like "green guts", and the screen turns green)
When I got a little older (5 or 6) I was programming the thing often enough to crack up the manuals for TI Extended BASIC and start reading them. For sprites, joystick, DATA/READ, sound effects, among other things. While I wish I would have had a C64 instead of a TI99/4a, I am happy that I had a computer and dot-matrix printer growing up. (the printer came with a book on programming it, so I would sometimes send commands to it to draw little graphics or use alternate fonts)
7 years old is not necessarily too young. But I think a bigger component is if the child has a real interest in mucking around with computers. Likely the child doesn't even know what they like to do. I would categorize buying a youngster their own computer to buying them a guitar. They may take to it like a duck to water, but it also might sit on a shelf and end up at your garage sale 10 years from now.
I'll share some advice, despite not having any children of my own. I'd recommend that you be supportive of a child's interest, and provide them resources to explore multiple potential interests. And don't be surprised if the child's interest doesn't match your own. Even though you like computers, you might be raising a chemist or musician or athlete.
No computer! Bad idea! (Score:5, Interesting)
They don't need their own computer yet. Probably at 12 years old, but no sooner. They need to learn the fundamentals of what they are doing before they abstract it away with a computer.
I myself was slapped in front of a computer at the age of 5. I'm now sitting here on a sunday night, posting on Slashdot rather than doing something useful. Do you want that to be your kids?
any decent computer, with Linux (Score:3)
I am not sure if building a PC from parts is really an important part of the experience. I suggest getting any decent computer and installing Linux. Ubuntu or Mint would be good choices.
Why Linux? He can learn how to find new things, install them, and try them out. The package management system on Linux is so much better than the mess on Windows, and there is a ton of cool stuff that is free.
If you can, have him learn a good scripting language. I recommend Python, because even if he doesn't become a software developer he can use Python (for math, astronomy, statistics, web development, mass-converting his media collection to a new file format, etc.).
Wrong goal (Score:4)
>> I'm looking for a computer that will teach him basic computer literacy
Computer can't do that. Only a human can.
Get the child a ball or a bicycle (Score:4, Insightful)
For gods sake people, obeseity is a problem already. Get the children playing games and learning social skills. A fit, healthy individual who is socially savvy is likely to be more successful than one of the I.T. crowd. Sure get them interested in tech and science as well as sports.
If you want something techie or science based then get your child a telescope. It has the advantage of the Wow factor, being hands-on and getting the children outdoor. The plus side is that you'll get some exercise and be bond with your child as you discover the universe. Just don't by a cheap telescope from Walmart, etc... You can get a really cool Galileo scope at http://www.astrosphere.org/astrogear/shop/buy2give/galileoscope-2/ [astrosphere.org] for about $50. But for 500-1200 you can get a really nice Dobsonian, just don't start too big.
Even better (Score:5, Insightful)
Pick one: a PC or a circular slide rule...
Seriously, a 7-year-old has too much to learn about almost everything. He is better off with his own account on a shared PC (e.g. a family PC, where our kids started), where he can dabble and can sometimes look over an adult's shoulder. Give him his own PC, and he's likely to still want to use the same one as dad or mom.
Re:Even better (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, a 7-year-old has too much to learn about almost everything.
This. I predict 99% of the people who are going to reply below this line will have no idea what a 7-year-old is like.
Expose him to computers, sure, but don't try to make them a central focus in his life.
Give him his own PC, and he's likely to still want to use the same one as dad or mom.
This as well...
Re:Even better (Score:3)
I did something similar for my kid (Score:5, Insightful)
I took my old PC, wiped it clean and installed Windows XP on it. Avast anti virus. Ghosted the main drive to the second drive. Then unplugged the second drive.
Then turned him loose.
His desktop is littered with icons he made from testing the ideas of clicking and dragging. He somehow switched it to the High Contrast scheme. His browser has about a dozen toolbars. Which I think is interesting - it must be awfully easy to wind up with those. Don't hate your parents for installing them. It appears to happen almost by itself. On the plus side one of them plays Sonic the Hedgehog and he really likes that. A couple of old XP games, like Catz. He loves that.
He just clicks around and has fun. Supervised, of course. He's managed to do a fairly amazing number of things on his own. Watches youtube videos, has a few radio channels he found and likes, and so on.
If things get bad I'll restore the ghost image but for now he's having a blast.
Re:Even better (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, a 7-year-old has too much to learn about almost everything.
This. I predict 99% of the people who are going to reply below this line will have no idea what a 7-year-old is like.
Expose him to computers, sure, but don't try to make them a central focus in his life.
Give him his own PC, and he's likely to still want to use the same one as dad or mom.
This as well...
Wow. I have to totally disagree with you. At least in the case of my daughter. She's had her own computer since she was 2 years old. She's now 9 and is on her second.
I work from home. She was curious about what I was doing at my desk one day so I installed a "edutainment" game that I picked up on sale several months earlier on clearance. I figured math and the alphabet wouldn't change much by the time she was ready for it. She thought it was great and wanted to be on my computer constantly. So I pulled an old computer out and set it up for her. By the time she entered kindergarten she could read, add, subtract and do some simple multiplication. Not that this was totally due to the computer. My wife and I read to her and always explained things when she would ask. At one point she asked for a game that I misread to be for 6-7 year olds that was actually for 6 to 7th graders. She was playing games that taught her about dominant and recessive genes. A while back she wanted some programs that needed a little more power than her computer had. That was the only time she wanted to use my computer since getting her own. So I got her a better system.
When she was 6 the only thing she wanted for Christmas was for me to put her computer on the internet. After some worry I finally did. But I don't allow her to get on chat rooms and Facebook etc.
I agree, it should not be a central focus. But it's an important tool to understand how to use. Frankly writing is started to be dropped in favor of typing in some schools. So I'm not sure way a keyboard an mouse shouldn't be of similar importance to crayons these days.
Re:Even better (Score:5, Insightful)
At that age, teaching basic life skills is top priority, the 3 Rs, plus teaching kids about the way real things work. Learning how a bicycle or a lawn mower works, how to do basic car, electrical, and plumbing repairs are also life skills, as well as cooking. Computers are part of this as well, but at that age While age 7 is a little early to expect kids to fix a broken flapper valve, replace a light switch, or sweat soldering copper plumbing, employing them as a gofer, and explaining the how and why of things as they look over your shoulder primes them for later on. Same with computers, let them help you when you repair or attempt to repair all kinds of different things. Let them take apart that broken electric drill to let them see how it works, and what caused it to fail. Keep a bunch of how-to books, first aid manuals, Army Field Manuals. Kids are easily bored, but their brains soak up information like a sponge at that age.
As they get older, let them or in the case when they break it themselves make them (with appropriate supervision) do the work themselves. My first big bike was built up from a bone pile of junked bicycles by my Dad and I when I was about 7. A couple of years later, I got a new 3 speed model for Christmas, and was constantly tinkering with it, and by the time I was 10 I was able to do just about anything it needed from adjusting the brakes to repairing a bent rim.
LOL (Score:5, Informative)
I remember building a heathkit board that used huge chips to make a christmas tree light up.
Poke...Peek...
The parent has a point, start with a basic electronics kit and teach him about LOGIC...
Computers are simple if you learn from the ground up.
Re:Even better (Score:3, Insightful)
The gap between "bare basics" and "current technology" is immense.
Forcing the child to start in the 1960's and understand every bit of the evolution of computer technology is stupid. The reason you started with an XT is because that *was state of the art.*
If the kid is interested in digging deeper into low level bare-metal programming, he'll learn that stuff without having to be forced to. But there's a really good chance that he won't be interested in "computers as a career" at all, and would much rather just learn to use it to browse the web, do research, play some games, and communicate with friends and family. Trying to force them into low-level computer fundamentals as an *entry* point is a good way to ensure that they never play with that crappy cheap computer you get them, and instead just play with their friends' computers and complain about how cheap their parents are.
Get them a standard (older, low-power) PC or Mac. Install one or two other OS'es as VMware partitions, or dual-boot - ghost the initial install and tell them "don't worry, if you break it, we'll restore." Encourage them to play around and see what they can do with the OS'es, and encourage them to read, ask questions, and try stuff. If they get interested in programming, install something like a LAMP stack, and let them explore. Children won't need much prompting to explore an area that interests them, and any standard desktop today will offer that opportunity.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Even better (Score:3)
Pick one: a PC or a circular slide rule...
I got my first slide rule at that age. Granted, it wasn't a circular one, but a Rietz system.
If there had been hobby computers back then, I am sure I would have gotten one. As it is, I got a pocket calculator as soon as the first affordable scientific models came out (a Casio FX-10 followed by a HP 67).
And an encyclopaedia, which was the best gift for a young child ever. With insatiable thirst for knowledge, and an encyclopaedia which was actually mine to use as much as I wanted, with dirty hands or under the blankets, or write comments in, it was awesome.
My love for maths and the sciences undoubtedly owes a lot to my father inspiring this interest in a young son, by giving him tools that required thinking, and which made it easier and more fun.
For a computer, I think a 7 year old would be best served by a machine that's requires some thought, and can be explored and at least partially understood -- not a black box that works by magic like his video games console does.
How about books? (Score:5, Insightful)
Or a better idea..
For $300 you buy a shitload of books, especially if you go to the used book store.
Re:How about books? (Score:3)
This, he's likely to have access to a shared pc, that's enough.
When I was that age my dad had an amstrad portable (laptop doesn't describe it) [wikipedia.org]. I also had a mass of books to read and Lego to play with. Sure you can do more with a modern PC - I made use with works word processor to make ASCII art - but playing with something tangible was the preference.
Of course, things have changed. Give your child the option, but I hope computers will never replace real toys.
Re:How about books? (Score:5, Insightful)
Or a better idea..
For $300 you buy a shitload of books, especially if you go to the used book store.
Damn right. Get him to share your PC, and buy him a set of Harry Potter/Tarzan/. Computer nerds are a dime-a-dozen. People who can use both language and a computer sensibly are harder to find.
/. - no doubt someone will soon suggest that you give the kid a block of metal and a smelter and get him to make his own PC the hard way, the way they did it.
However, this is
Re:How about books? (Score:5, Insightful)
Or a better idea..
For $300 you buy a shitload of books, especially if you go to the used book store.
Or you could get him a library card, and he could get $300 worth of books every month and you will still have the original $300 to spend on a computer.
Re:How about books? (Score:3)
Strange how everyone seems to think it has to be one xor the other. In my experience they can easily co-exist.
My daughters (aged 7 and 4) both love going to the library every 3 weeks and bring back as many books they are allowed to. The oldest one usually takes along a bunch of Jommeke's and an actual reading book (AVI 8) which are pretty much all read within the week, and then read again a couple of times before we have to return them. The youngest one is more likely to select books with things (drawings) she recognizes from school (Jules, Nijntje, etc) and/or from having brought along somewhere in the past. That age LOVES repeating things =) She'll sit down in the sofa and start making up stories based on the pictures or if it was something she had already been explained (by us, or at school or I sometimes honestly have no clue where she gets it from) she can actually make people believe she's actually reading the book, it's amazing how detailed they can remember something. ...) but over time it's gotten more into the interactive realms like GCompris and websites like Ketnet (Kaatje!), studio100.be, spelletjes.nl, etc... For now, they pretty much stick to starting the machine, clicking the shortcuts and playing the game/movie, close the program again and turn off the machine. Nothing fancy, just the usual routine and for me, that's OK. I don't need them to know what's inside, how it's all connected etc...They're fluent with the mouse/keyboard by now (eye-hand coordination + the concept of planning their actions (first move mouse to icon, then click, then press enter ('aimed' double clicking is hard when you're 3 so I showed them this way and they still do), waiting for MoviePlayer to come up and start playing and then double clicking somewhere to make it full-screen)).
That just to say : my kids love books.
On the other hand I have an old laptop (P4M 2GHz) with XP on that they've been using since. hmm... 5 years ? to play around with. In the beginning it was mostly watching DVD's I had copied on it (Bumba, Nouky, Dora,
For now, I think it's fine if they simply see it as a magic-box they know how to operate; if they want to know how it works internally I'm sure they'll let me know or go exploring themselves; that's how it was with me and it worked out fine IMHO. (C64 at the age of 12. At the time I only bought it to play games and did so for about 2 year. Got kind of bored with that and more curious about 'how it worked' and got into hardware and programming over the years and still am.) If they never make that switch, well, so be it. I never had much interest for football and other high-profile sports and I'm glad my parents never 'pushed' me into that direction although as far as I can remember the whole world seemed to be crazy about those game$. I'll try to do the same with my kids. I just hope they'll never get interested in horse-riding 'cause I really don't feel like getting a pony =)
Anyway, there ARE 2 problems with the computer however :
1) there is only one computer but 2 kids,
2) there is an infinite range of things to do on the computer but only 24 hours in a day.
The first is solved by a simple timer and they take turns every 15 minutes; actually teaches them the concept of time too.
The second is by introducing the rule that if there is no computering when the weather outside is too good to sit behind a desk. Although totally inconsistent of me, I know, they CAN read books, draw, paint, play with Lego/Playmobile/dolls/whatever inside even when the weather outside is paradise, but the pc remains off. It's probably not the best of rules, but it works and given our Belgian climate they do get to play on the thing now and then but not in a way I would consider 'over the top'.
PS: Same goes for the TV btw.
PPS: for those who wonder why I choose XP. I actually had Ubuntu on there for the first years, joking that my kids were the Linux specialists in the house (I use windows because I know it and need it for work, not saying
Re:A Mac? (Score:4, Interesting)
My creds: father of a 9 year old. She has a desktop XP machine and a laptop with Debian/LXDE
She is quite comfortable with both of them, and has no problem swapping out parts in the desktop machine.
Disclaimer: The only reason she has a Wintendo is for The Sims 2 Pets.
How do you get a kid to this level?
Try for a machine that is old enough to NOT have everything onboard.
The kiddo can help you install all the cards and memory, screw the case together "all by their self" and plug in/power on the machine. Then you can run them through a basic install of either Linux or XP, depending on if they want to play Wal-Mart videogames or not.
Re:A Mac? (Score:4, Funny)
And, for a machine of that age, the kid can also make the necessary blood sacrifice required every time you open up the case.
It's just an added bonus of learning not to stick your fingers into everything you open up. Most of us had to wait until we were older to get that lesson.
Re:Used MacBook Pro (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Used MacBook Pro (Score:5, Informative)
No paranoid parent would/should give a 7 year old as something as breakable and valuable as a multi-hundred dollar laptop
FTFY. Seriously. Just explain to them that the device is fragile, and that NO fighting for it will be tolerated.
Kids, especially at age 4+, are by no means dumb or clumsy; if you tell them beforehand that they need to pay attention that it never drops on the floor, and show that you trust them, they'll pay attention and do their very best to deserve that trust -- to make daddy proud.
Sure, accidents can happen. But do you keep them in a sterile environment so they don't catch a cold?
(Fwiw, I've a tablet that got its first bumps and scratches due to a friend's 13-year old daughter. The fucking brat needed the entire dining room table room to do her homework, so she wiped everything on it to the floor: phone, tablet, laptop, you name it. At least three dozen 4-8 year olds and two cats had played with the tablet unsupervised prior to that event; it had no scratches.)
Re:Used MacBook Pro (Score:3)
For younger kids, it's not being dumb or clumsy that wears things down, it's aggressive wear and tear. A 6 year old with a laptop is going to use it *anywhere* (on the floor, on their top bunk, outside) and bring it *everywhere*, especially if it's one of their favorite things. I'm not necessarily arguing against an older nice laptop, but as a parent, you can generally assume your kid is going to wear down his or her electronics faster than an adult, who laptops are actually designed for.
Re:Used MacBook Pro (Score:2)
You can't really open it up though. Try of most laptops. A used Mac Pro OTOH would work just fine. Very organized inside. Everything comes apart neatly and you can really get a good look at the internals. Also pretty cheap if you go do a 4 yr model quad core or the like. You can even upgrade parts for not too much though less options than a Non-Apple PC.
Re:7 and no computer?!? (Score:2)
I don't think he has a geek badge, considering he doesn't know enough about computer to know what exactly he's asking about.
Even then, it depends what exactly he wants the kid to do, I wouldn't really want a 7 year old trying to administer the hardware or software on a family machine. A 7 year old should be free to wreck it, and just reinstall and move on. Having other people (i.e. the family) relying on the 7 year old not screwing it up is likely to cause a huge pile of grief.
For just using software on it then sure, family machine, but if you want the kid playing with hardware, or installing god knows what tools wise etc. I'd be a bit more skeptical.
Nah. One Laptop Per Child "XO" (Score:2)
Buy one in great condition on ebay for $200 or less.
Having said all that: it will eventually need to be replaced. Your child isn't going to get through college with it. Or probably even high school.
Re:dude you're getting an old dell (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not so sure I like the idea of a 7 year old opening a desktop machine with mains voltages available.
Unless it's a dedicated battery system (say a Raspberry Pi) I would not allow a 7 year old unfettered access to any hardware. Too dangerous.
If the goal is to teach a kid about basic electronics / logic or similar, the Lego Mindstorm sounds like a much better idea.
Re:dude you're getting an old dell (Score:3)
You don't have any high voltage available outside the power supply, which is self-contained. Most power supplies are difficult to open while they're installed, and you usually unplug them to uninstall them. Computers are probably the safest electric appliances you could tinker with while they're plugged in.
The most you have to worry about is the 12V lines. I've worked on more open machines than I can remember and I've never had a shock (not counting static). There's a lot more danger of the kid frying components with static electricity than shocking himself with 120V (or whatever you use where you are).