Is Qwest's ISP Deal Really Worth the Hassle? 251
"My husband and I were paying $21.95/mo for our dialup access. We were also paying more than the difference - $3 - in long distance each month while definately using less than 250 minutes. So we thought, "Hey, this sounds like a good deal. Let's go for it." So we did. After attempting to sign up and being told there was some sort of problem with our phone company and that we'd have to call the 1-800 number to set up our account, the wierdness started. We never called the 1-800 number, but a week or so later, we got a call from MCI (our old long distance carrier) asking if we wanted to switch back - or why we switched in the first place. The poor telemarketer basically hung up when my huband told them we were getting a *far* better deal - they couldn't compete. So we figured, 'Hey, the changeover must have happened. Cool, I wonder when our Inernet Account will be active.' However, we didn't get any sort of confirmation from Qwest for another week or more, and only then after they had sent us 2 copies of a CD containing netscape (which I, naturally, thought was extraneous since I already had Netscape installed on all of our linux boxes). My husband finally sat down this past weekend with one of these CDs, and read through the info packet - the requirements of Win95/98 are apparently set stone. You have to install *their* version of Netscape in order to even *register* for their Internet service. You cannot get your account open unless you use their software that is either imbedded in, or integrally tied to, the copy of Netscape they send you. Which only runs on Win95/98 (according to them - not even NT!).
We tried everything we could to get it working under Linux - no go. My husband called Qwest, and they said the only way to activate your account is via *their* software. Which is Microsoft-centric. Which is not something I'm sure I want to deal with. Yes, we have dual-boot systems, but Win95 doesn't seem to work well on my husband's machine, the only one other than the server, which is linux-only, with a modem. We have yet to move a modem to our third machine (mine) and trying to boot to windows to do it that way. Though I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth the effort. What if they've got some funky setup where we can't get all the information we need to be able to set it up in Linux? Then we're pretty much hosed. Are all 'large-scale' ISPs this way? I know Mindspring - while not actively *supporting* Linux - does have many linux-using customers who don't have WinX around to initialize their account. I know there are Linux users using AT&T and AOL. Can you get those accounts without having to go through a WinX middle-OS? Has anyone else had any experiences with Qwest, or know of any work-around to get your account set up? We're already rather close to cancelling the whole deal - but the price just seems too good to be true for what you get. I suppose it is - considering you have to sell your soul to Microsoft just to sign up. "
Is it just me or do some of you find the practice of requiring a specific Operating System to access the Internet? If Qwest is really making this a hard and fast requirement, then they should point this fact out to potential customers especially since the deal forces you to change your Long Distance carrier as well. I wonder how many other unsuspecting folks have been caught by this.
amazing stupidity on Qwest's part. (Score:1)
Re:Microsoft (Score:1)
It's a questoin of support (Score:1)
This person should have asked up front if the service would work with Linux.
Yet another reason why people should not be pushing Linux on the desktop until it really is ready.
Anonymous Qwest charges (Score:1)
I had never heard of Qwest until they charged my phone bill with a $3 charge. I called them to ask why they were charging me, and they couldn't explain it, so they refunded it.
They sounded fishy to me all around.
Earthlink (Score:1)
no problems with harvard.net... (Score:1)
MSN. Scary, but true. (Score:1)
And no, you don't have to run a MS-platform box to get set up. Just call the 800 number and tell them you want an account. (Don't mention Linux :) They'll set you up in no time. If they get confused, you might have to explain that you don't want to run their custom software--you just want an internet connection. :) (Mentioning Windows NT can help as well.)
The connection is normal PPP through UUNet. You can use Minicom to dial the POP and you'll get a text chat you can use to login. They also support PAP/CHAP.
The problem here, as everywhere, is support. MSN doesn't even support Windows NT. It's just Win95/98. However, for the busy Linux nerd on the go, the service is great.
Re:Maybe we should give Qwest a buzz... (Score:1)
Re:Microsoft (Score:1)
Reasons why this is done (IMHO) (Score:1)
For one thing, and this is probably alot more common with smaller ISPs than larger ones, they just might not know how to set it up (I know this is true, because our competitor's are like that, they couldn't set up anything other than windows machine if you told them how to) Which is really pretty amazing, since you would expect to even be able to run an ISP you'd HAVE to know something about that, but they don't, they pay some outside guy to do it.
This is not true with us, however, since we're a little smarter and tend to only hire intelligent human beings, we will support any OS that comes along, even if it means we have to drive 40 minutes to their house to get it set up for them.
Any OS should be able to connect find to any ISP that isn't running full of proprietary software, (i.e. AOL)
Maybe the real reason that they only let people use windows is because they know that the average windows user is stupid, and hence they can get alot of money out of tech-support and what not. Makes sense I guess, if you want money.
How to contact Qwest... (Score:4)
Anyway, Qwest's feedback page [qwest.com].
Regards,
The rest of the story... (Score:5)
Basically it works like this, the CD that is sent out by sales includes a product code that keeps your billing in order as well as creates your login. This can also be done by calling the support line, NOT sales. We had the ability to create the account while the customer was on the phone AND give them the mail, DNS and dialer settings. The hitch is that the required connection type is PAP, not PPP. The Linux users that I spoke with could not get a PAP login to work, which is the way Dial Up Networking in Win95/98 will connect. So this Qwest deal is fine, the trick is knowing when to call tech support.
And a further extension of the "OS Discrimination" is that roughly 85-90% of users are using Windows (3.x, 95, 98, 2000) or Mac OS. These systems are also the ones taught in school (K-12 and beginning college courses). The problem with getting an ISP to fully support Linux all lies in the training. Most ISPs can provide general settings, but not troubleshoot specific problems. One would see much the same if they were using OS/2 or BeOS. The added cost to train individuals in these systems is far greater than the benefits, because there is more to a PPP connection than a dialer, the rep needs to understand the underlying OS in order to make "tweaks" that will allow support for some modem strings, and general error code checks.
I know that this is going to draw flames, but what should a Windows user expect these days?
Same thing happend with France Telecom... (Score:1)
(and was forced to use windows to connect! damn winmodems..)
and bought their kit in one of their shop
(cost me like 30$ US for 15h? damn expensive!)...
After trying to setup the damn account with their cdrom, i came to the conclusion that you had to 1st use windows (which i was using) but 2nd, have a french version! I have a US one...(they installed a modified version of IE with their logo instead of a spinning (e), and i had to connect to a special server that creates the account and then connect to another to be online...anyway i finally got online after a couple of hours(and a couple telephone)...but the initial software i was supposed to use never worked, kind of remind me of an AOL registration session...)
I dont understand why you cant just call up their ISP and register and get online within 10 minutes, thats the way it works where i live
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Re:Changing the IE logo is easy (Score:1)
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Re:Hello, Tech Support! (Score:2)
Qwest requires additional information to initiate the account. The only documented way to supply that information, and start the Qwest account, is to connect with their Windows software. In other words, they effectively prevent non-windows users from accessing their service. Some people suggest good workarounds, but Qwest is not volunteering any such information. Considering how much money Microsoft is dumping into Qwest, this behaviour is hardly surprising.
I don't expect every ISP to fully support every operating system out there. I do think it is reasonable to expect every ISP out there to support generic TCP/IP. That is to say, someone who knows how to configure TCP/IP and communications on their OS of choice should be able to get the basic information and connect with it, without needing any special software. That is not too much to ask, but too many big ISP's (eg. Qwest, AOL, Compuserve) refuse to support this basic level of connectivity.
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Re:Propietary Netscape is a sham... (Score:1)
Re:Support (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
Hogwash - these people should be fired... (Score:3)
The people who set these kinds of policies are costing their companies money and should be fired. Mac users, in particular, form a significant share of the home market.
Keeping the setup procedure standard would 1/ reduce development costs (why customize the browser?) 2/ reduce support costs (users who know their way around a standard installation wouldn't have to call for help), 3/ increase revenue (10% is actually a whole lot of revenue when you figure their infrastructure costs are more-or-less fixed - most of the 10% would be straight profit).
Nobody is saying their customer service has to support every OS in the world, but making it easier for anybody to connect (with any operating system) is good business.
I get really annoyed when Dilbertesque executives display their incompetance so clearly.
I'll confirm that. (Score:1)
-[ World domination - rains.net [rains.net] ]-
Re:PAP isn't always easy, even with kppp (Score:1)
same problem with BellSouth, sort of... (Score:1)
Recently I received a mailing from BellSouth advertising their new ADSL service in my area. It looked like a good deal, but when I called to find out if it was linux-compatible, I found out that it was Windows only, allegedly because they have a "special version" of Netscape optimized to use their service. (As if a normal version of Netscape couldn't handle higher-than-modem bandwidth?)
I also found out that the program isn't even run from around here, but by a company out in California. Maybe it's the same company Qwest is using?
What's the deal with all these "special" versions of Netscape? It doesn't seem to make business sense to exclude various customers arbitrarily, and this bit about a "special" netscape doesn't seem to make technical sense at all. What's it for?
It's a mystery to me.
Re:It's a questoin of support (Score:1)
If we continue to encourage blockheaded ISP's to use proprietary connection software and to not share configuration information when open standards like PPP have been available and usable with Desktop Linux for years, well, Linux never will be ready for the desktop.
If "Ready for the desktop" means having to connect via "Point-to-Microsoft Protocol" that was invented last week, well, Linux always will be "behind," at least as far as MS-sponsored AC trolls are concerned.
I mean, come on, PPP was invented on Unix, M$ propaganda (i.e. the way they labeled PPP a modern protocol but SLIP an "old Unix" protocol in their net setup control panel) to the contrary.
Re:pirate a copy of 98, install it, then wipe it! (Score:1)
Thanks, AC, I don't know what I'd do without your guidance. Your idea is much better than simply taking my money to an ISP with a clue. Really.
Whoa.. swbell.net non-Windows support?? (offtopic) (Score:1)
How did you get them to support you? What is your secret?
I used swbell.net for about a year and a half with my ISDN line, and had NOTHING but trouble getting any sort of help. A typical call started out like this:
Them: "Are you using Windows or Macintosh?"
Me: "Neither.. I'm using a Linux system."
Them: "Oh, we don't support that."
Problems ranged from an inability to authenticate (PAP auth timeouts) to an incorrect IP assignment (pppd would request 10.0.0.1, my eth0 address, and their servers would occasionally *acknowledge* that request instead of NAK'ing it and providing their own, which would be normal behavior) to major packet loss inside their network.
I never got them to acknowledge the first two problems, which started/stopped/started as they upgraded their terminal servers to various software revisions (and, for argument's sake, could quite possibly be a problem with pppd, but my instincts say otherwise). Whenever I'd call or e-mail and bring it up (complete with PPP/LCP packet traces), they would have no idea what to do with what info I'd pasted and would simply say, "Nobody else has complained of this exact problem." What they fail to realize is that under Windows, *it simply disconnects you*. You don't get a message saying "PAP authentication timed out!" Since Windows users are accustomed to links dropping randomly and machines requiring reboots all the time, it's no surprise that they don't call their ISP, and even if they do, the only information the ISP has to go on is "my modem seems to occasionally randomly disconnected right after I make the call, or at some point afterwards." I figured I was doing them a *favor* by giving them the precise PPP packets that caused the problem in the first place.
To even report packet loss I would either have to pray for a clueful tech (which happened only once, but I think it was a supervisor I got that time), or I'd have to call back and pretend to be a poor Windows sap with the same problem (naturally I'd have to dumb down my description of the problem, since Windows dialogs are much less informative than, say, a verbose pppd log), which only occasionally resulted in a quick investigation by them, which resulted in a "Oh, wow, it seems you're right. We do seem to be having problems in your area." response. Forget an e-mail with a traceroute pasted in it. I invariably get an e-mail 3 days later that says, "I have no idea what the problem is, but everything seems to be working fine on our end. Let us know if you're still having problems and we can try giving you a new init string."
You have no idea how many times I would call up and the first thing the tech would suggest is a new MODEM INITIALIZATION STRING. Remember: I'm using an ISDN line. I would clearly state this in my opening greeting.
To make matters worse, swbell.net techs apparently do not receive announcements from nor are they able to query any engineering or network staff (except *maybe* via their supervisors, which they are reluctant to do). Worst of all, they do not have access to any form of connection history or diagnostics about your dialup link. The only thing they can seem to pull up on their screen is your billing info and (what appears to be) a single text box with tech comments from previous calls. Without crucial information such as past connection histories (that describe disconnection reasons, among other things), diagnosing connection-related problems becomes *impossible*. The extent of their support for these types of things is simply a new init string.
*Pathetic* support, *especially* for Linux.
I have no problem with tech support being Windows-oriented, but I *do* have a problem with techs freaking out or just repeating,"We don't support that," when a non-OS-specific connection problem occurs and I'm not using Windows.
You'll have to pardon my rant.
They Support MacOS? (Score:1)
Didn't I recently read somewhere that the Linux user base had passed MacOS user base? I don't question that Win95 is probably the most commonly used OS still, but I guess somehow I got the impression that Linux was more common than MacOS now.
Anyone know for sure?
PAP isn't always easy, even with kppp (Score:1)
Changing the IE logo is easy (Score:1)
Linux AOL users (Score:1)
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Scott Miga
Re:A technical clarification (PPP, PAP) (Score:2)
Re:Microsoft (Score:2)
No prob, Bob (Score:1)
Setting up the PAP authentication on Linux took a couple of tries, but now it's flawless. The key is to make the dialer wait the right amount of time before turning the process over to pppd. Sending and receiving email works with Netscape though I can't yet send with nmh :-(. And they don't yet offer multiple email accounts :-(.
Re:Bell Atlantic (Score:1)
Maybe special Netscape only needed to register (Score:1)
After registering this way you can dialup from any OS to your freeserve account, even though they too only claim to support Windows (for support reasons as pointed out before).
So I should try the software to register, then start nosing around the DUN properties to find out what 'phone number it calls, etc.
Re:AT&T Worldnet is similar (Score:1)
Well, assuming their modems answer, but that's another story.
Re:Microsoft (Score:2)
So get an ISP that supports Linux... (Score:2)
My new ISP is even going so far as to set up the static address block that I requested, on my dialup, so I can just hop over to the DSL when it becomes available. And they use Linux.
Re:Link to Qwest is broken. (Score:1)
Bell Atlantic (Score:2)
About Earthlink (Score:1)
Anyway, very nice national ISP, friendly techs, 100% Linux compatable.
Brian
Re:uswest.net does exactly the same thing.... (Score:1)
When I first signed up, I filled out the online form, then a tech person contacted me to confirm and configure. I was running Mac OS 8.5 (8.6 now). The set up they tried to give me was for OS 7.5, and would not work with my system. I tried to have the tech just give me the info so I could configure my machine myself, but it took me talking to 4 different tech people over three evenings before they gave up trying to tell me there was no other way besides their way and just give me the tcp/ip settings.
After I was up and running, I found I could only connect at 24600, not the 56K they advertise. Turns out uswest.net was "unable to get the modem strings" my iMac uses and could not make their system work any faster. After much complaining I was told that uswest.net wasn't really supporting their dial-up system any more. Instead, they were focusing on ISDN and DSL, and would I like to sign up for either? Oh, wait, the wires in my apartment are kind of old and won't really work with ISDN or DSL.
Anyway, Qwest now owns USWest, and uswest.net... I wonder when they'll say my system is no longer compatable with theirs?
Yet another Mindspring rave (Score:1)
They don't support Linux, but they'll provide some tech notes for you to wade thru (which is very Linuxy thing to do).
So please don't just rant against Qwest et. al.
Support the folks who do listen [mindspring.com]! Let them know we approve.. and that we're watching.
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Re:This Kind Of BS Is Too Common (Score:1)
The other reason is that they want to make it easy for their customers to sign up. So they make this do-it-all CD, which happens to only work on 95/98. That's the moment they ship the thing.
What they should realize is that giving a dial-in-number, username, password, DNS IP and a few others, will suffice for many other-os-users.
My cable-modem stops transmitting data after an hour of uploading. Two months after reporting that, the helpdesk comes back with click this, click that for me to check my MTU and stuff. Brilliant!
Roger.
Re:Support (Score:1)
I'm sorry, but just because a company doesn't support an operating system, I still think it's fairly stupid to restrict access to just windows. Providing a way for people using "alternative" OSes to connect would not cost a vast amount of money (connecting to an ISP is a fairly common procedure) and they can still claim "We don't support linux" to users who have problems with that. How many slashdot readers use a free unix? Lots - and none of them can use Qwest.
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The relevant documentation can be found (Score:1)
Fortunately, not all of them are bad . . . (Score:1)
I hope that in the future, more ISPs will become more "enlightened" in this manner.
Re:Hello, Tech Support! (Score:1)
Go for epix.net if you want a good Linux friendly ISP in PA
Canadian ISPs.. (Score:1)
Re:Its a conspiracy. (Score:1)
Very, VERY nice. They do have their own dialer, but it's optional. AFAIK, you can configure everything on the web site, and activate your account immediately, provided that you have a major credit card.
The dialup service is very good. For some of the POPs they use UUNet's hardware, but that doesn't bother me - as long as it works. They also provide dialup service in Canada.
The service is $19.95 a month. They may have some discounts for pay-in-advance, but I never checked. There is a registration fee of $25, but it is waived if you sign up online.
6MB of web space, POP3, SMTP, fast dialup, etc.
You get a month free for every person you refer, but I've found it to be a pain in the ass, as they require you to go through a painful confirmation.
Other things include a thin deadtree magazine, an email once in a while,
More info here... [earthlink.net]
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Re:AT&T Worldnet is similar (Score:1)
Re:same problem with BellSouth, sort of... (Score:2)
This is *not* a problem (Score:2)
There's a verification number in the CD package they sent me, but no way to get online without the CD.
So I booted in Windows and used their CD. It took me to their special full-screen login session, I went through it, and then got set up.
After that, I went through the Dial Up Networking, pulled all the information about the connection from there, went into IE, pulled the proxy information from there, rebooted, entered the information into Linux, and viola! I'm using the ISP from Linux.
Re:Bell Atlantic (Score:2)
And their ppp does take a damn long time to connect. I had to set the timeout extra-extra long to get the damn thing to work with dialup. No more of that, now though. DSL is A Good Thing :-)
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We all take pink lemonade for granted.
I had a similar problem... but fixed it. (Score:1)
Logging into linux, I had entered all the information into linuxconf/netcfg (yeah, I'm a redhat user. bleh), and tried to dial up. no dice. it'd dial in but wouldn't connect. then I got the bright idea of using minicom to connect. When I dialed in with minicom, I found somehting interesting... most unix boxes greet dialup users with "login:" and "password:" prompts, and most linux distros expect this, however, This server was running on WinNT, and has "Username:" and "Password:", thus, I'd have to change the configuration on what linux's ppp scripts should expect. instead of "ogin:", simply change it to "name:" and you should be fine. My friend, after getting his dialup working under linux, never went back to windows, as for some reason his Plug-N-Pray modem worked waaaay faster under linux than in windows.
if some clueful Debian or Slack user would help me out by telling these people what config files they have to edit to do what linuxconf and netcfg did for me (I really gotta learn the proper cfg files.)
hope this helps.
an additional note (Score:1)
for some reason, I bet that you won't have to use PAP tho... but if you do, I'm prepared to eat my hat. :)
Re:even local isps are funky (Score:1)
I have 2 ISPs. One I've had little to complain about, even though the owner runs it as a hobby & only does tech support thru email. (Maybe that separates the lusers from the newbies & others willing to learn. ) The other I had little to complain about until a month ago when they got bought out by a Very Big Corporation, who then changed something somewhere which has resulted in breaking every TCPIP connection to the Internet thru them.
If it wasn't for the first ISP, I'd be Up S*** Creek Without a Paddle in terms of Internet connectivity. Second ISP gave no warning that they were changing the ``something somewhere", so that users with a clue could anticipate this new development, hold times for tech support has gone from a few minutes to over twenty minutes, & one friend of mine who depends on them for email can't is three weeks behind.
(The ISP in question is Transport Logic in Portland. If you know the secret for fixing things, post it to pdx.general! My friend & I will be glad for the help.)
I suspect that what happened was some PHB in the new owner's corporate structure decided to make the change to ``simplify things", & since it was so important decided it wasn't worth the delay involved to email any of their 10,000+ users & let them know that said change would happen, & when hit with the resulting avalanche of calls all of their competent phone techs (or Bobs) walked out.
Have I shared with any of you my opinion that US business basically sucks?
Geoff
Re:Great!! (Score:1)
I took the liberty of reposting this for the benefit for the clever AC and those less humor-impaired than the moderator who thought he was a troll.
Re:About IP of DNS server ? (Score:1)
Same thing all over (Score:1)
BS.N does have several support newsgroups where I can give and get better support, anyway. Lots of fellow Unix-like users with BS.N.Only new issue I face with them is I can't get ADSL installed from them without a Win/Mac box, so I have to whip one up just long enough to psych out the install tech. Then it's back to pure Linux and FreeBSD for me, baby!
Re:Can WINE provide a solution? (Score:1)
I wonder if you could get AOL's software to set up the ppp connection, and then cause UNIX to hijack it by grabbing the serial port, killing off the windows client. This hinges on getting pppd to grab onto an aready started connection, and that AOL's pp prtocol isn't weird.
AT&T Canada (Score:1)
Look through the setup files.
uswest.net does exactly the same thing.... (Score:1)
The difference is that it functions with Win 3.X, 9X, and NT along with some MACs...
In the case of
Perhaps Qwest offers these options?
Re:Hogwash - these people should be fired... (Score:2)
I'd like to see your analysis that shows that these people are costing the companies money. I've run an ISP, and I can tell you that it is indeed expensive to support users of systems other than Windows. We did it, but in the end we lost money on those customers.
cjs
AT&T Worldnet is similar (Score:1)
I figured out that I could get windows to dialup and connect without the AT&T dialer. So I tried to read the userid/password out of the windows dial up networking configuration, but the install software configured a password for me, without telling me what it was, or allowing me to change it. Go figure.
I had to call AT&T's support and get them to read me this ten digit gibberish password over the phone so that I could setup a ppp script in linux. AT&T claims that it is done this way for security sake.
But I did get it working in Linux.
-josh
Re:You have to support both TCP/IP and OSes (Score:1)
Our Man in Redmond is thinking "provide technical support for," while Sloppy is thinking "provide functionality."
An ISP _should_ support communications standards (provide functionality.) And commercial ISP's do need to support common desktop operating systems (provide technical support for.)
personally I use.. (Score:1)
Mindspring.
I did not origonaly sign up for mindspring they kind of swallowed my previous ISP contracts.
Some of the Mindspring connectios are busy that depends on the area. They usually have many numbers for several areas, and since the recently merged with Earthlink, I imagine that they will possible have to ahve more numbers.
They also have limited support for Linux, they will point you in the right direction to the faq or howto, and they have some stuff like that. They also have stuff for windows users, that is quite a nice package althoguh a little memory intensive last time I tried it (over a year ago).
They have very good technical support and a good tech staff. I guess you woudl call me a satisfied customer.
I pay $20 a month for unlimited access, plus email, an d5 Megs of web space. THe only limit I have is on my Web SITE's bandwidth. I am only allowed 225Megs transfer a month thru my web site. NOTE this has nothing to do with my web surfing it is the amount of bandwidth theat someone else consumes when they visit MY web site. They ahve a @6.95 a month deal which allows for 10 Megs of web space, 3 email accounts, and also 450 Megs of web site bandwidth.
The only complaint I have had with them is the limitation on web site bandwidth, as there have been occasions that I have accually come close to have it consumed up.
All in all I rate them pretty well. Having never used Quest I cannot say. It sounds good, but ask them if there are any advertisements that you are going to get stuck seeing, also ask them what software they give you when you sign up. Mindspring will send you a cdrom for Win or Mac if you need it with all the software bundled on it.
Just my 2 cents.
Support TCP/IP instead of OSes (Score:4)
The problem is that they are supporting operating systems instead of communications standards. I don't want my ISP to support my OS; I want them to support TCP/IP. If they even ask what OS I'm running, then something is terribly wrong with them.
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Have a Sloppy day!
Re:MSN. Scary, but true. (Score:1)
messages"
Ameritech.net (Score:1)
Use 'whois' (Score:1)
Looking up aol.com tells you to look up AOL-DOM, and if you do this, it gives:
DNS-01.NS.AOL.COM 198.81.17.232
DNS-02.NS.AOL.COM 205.188.157.232
Re:Support (Score:2)
Jeff
Re:This Kind Of BS Is Too Common (Score:3)
MSFT has made several significant investments and "strategic partnerships" with Qwest, so...basically, yes.
Jeff
Re:Quest & Microsoft (Score:1)
Sherm
A technical clarification (PPP, PAP) (Score:1)
Use MindSpring! (Score:1)
Why would you want to go with one of those crappy national ISP's that have terrible service and require Windows specific software? Go with MindSpring [mindspring.net].
Although they don't officially support Linux, they very Linux friendly, have a great service, they are the only national ISP that I know of that does not take on new clients if they don't have the bandwidth, and they require no special software to use their service.
They even have Linux articles in their online knowledge base. Which is nice since I run nothing but Linux at home.
MindSpring [mindspring.net] is cool!
You can sign up at 1-888-mspring :)
-Bryan p.s. I don't work for MindSpring [mindspring.net].one reason (Score:1)
I could not get AOL 4.0 to work on my NT laptop and they indeed told me NT was not supported. And before you flame, my work paid for the AOL and asked that i have that available as a backup connection. Also, since some of the execs had AOL at home they wanted me to be familiar with it to support them.
I finally got the account cancelled because they refused to do anything to support NT.
Re:Support (Score:2)
Actually this scenario is not too far fetched. Lots of ISPs already farm out a lot of their support. A perfect example is Concentric Network, which farms out a good portion of their support to a company in Southfield, MI called National Tech Team. You don't even know you're being connected to a different company: their 800 number simply transfers calls to NTT's HQ in Southfield.
I know this because I know a few people who have worked for NTT in this capacity. (And from what they tell me, you do NOT want to work in their call center. But thats a different story
It would be just as simple for AOL or Earthlink or whatever to forward you to some support vendor like LinuxCare ("IF you have windows 95 or 98 press [1]. If you have Linux press [2]...")
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if a company like LinuxCare did that.
Lots of vendors say that they don't support other platforms, when in fact they are just using a standard PPP link. My service provider at one time fell into that category (I had to figure out how to setup Linux, and I didn't even have anything like easy like whats in KDE or Gnome--I had to setup chat and pppd by hand.) FlashNet has some very limited (Web-only) Linux support (i.e., you can download scripts and whatever from their page) but no phone support for Linux users.
Whats funny is that a number of their servers are Linux based.
Linux - Windows Translation Layer: MediaOne (Score:2)
Whenever I call up there tech support when I think the problem is on their end, I act as a Windows - Linux Translation layer:
Tech support guy: "Does your winipcfg box have all zeroes in it?"
Windows-Me: "Not getting DHCP OFFER"
Linux-Me: "Hmm, checking.... Nope, no offer message."
Real-Me: "Yes, all zeroes. Give me an IP, damnit
Some of the ideas suggested here, like only supporting certain communications protocols seems inpractical, unfortunatly. Tech support has to be able to reliably walk the _average_ user through a series of steps which will reliably fix the problem. Otherwise support costs spiral up.
I know, i know, linux users aren't average users. But, well damnit, we want linux on the desktop don't we?
-Snoot
Dail-up numbers (Score:2)
Start up minicom and check your local Qwest number.
Re:Dail-up numbers (Score:2)
Package? What package?! (Score:4)
I just moved out of state. And out of the range of my original ISP. (They don't service this area.) On top of that, where I moved to has exactly *three* NXX exchanges local. (THANK YOU BELL ATLANTIC, YOU WORTHLESS BASTARDS.) And an old AT&T 4ESS switch formerly owned by Bell of Pennsylvania. Well, I wasn't about to pay $.12/min for 800# access (it costs most ISPs upwards of $.155/min for 800# calls! Not you; THEM!) and I wanted to keep with them.
The solution? I got a local dialup (the only ISP in the *state* that serves my NPA/NXX local) till I move and get my PRIs. I made arrangements with my ISP to prepay for my email for the next year, and they're letting me keep my webpages there too. I got a local dialup account, with the intent of cancelling in about 3 months, and I'm all set.
And if all else fails, remember, some of the national people will work with anything. Afterall, it's just ppp. If you can setup your account on the phone, assume you can connect with Linux. PPP is PPP is PPP. All that you need is your authentication method (plaintext, PAP, CHAP, PAP+CHAP, CID+CHAP, etc. (At home, I had a CID+PAP setup.)) your username, your password, your dns servers, any weird options like gateway and such, and you're good to go!
Good luck.
-RISCy Business | Rabid unix guy, networking guru
Re:not necessarily (Score:2)
Remember, it's Internet Exploder on all those AOL CDs we like to use as frisbees, and AOL owns Netscape! So even if MS is a part-owner of Qwest, it doesn't mean they won't ship with Netscape.
AOL made that deal before they bought out Netscape. AOL uses MSIE for a place on the Windows disk. If I remember the rumors correctly, AOL will switch to a Mozilla based browser sometime in the future (AOL 5?). But for the time being AOL doesn't want to give up their place on the Windows desktop.
Re:Package? What package?! (Score:2)
The Windows NT implementation of PPP server is provided by RAS (Remote Access Services), which can be configured to use Windows NT Challenge/Response for authentication, which means anyone not using a recent Windows product is SOL. I don't know of any ISPs who actually use this, it being primarily a mechanism to provide semi-secure login to corporate networks, where the IT people can easily enforce a 'one OS' policy.
Support (Score:4)
What I'd like to see is one of the Linux Support vendors step up and build a contract with some of the major ISPs. That way, if you are having Linux problems, you call AOL, and AOL refers you to their Linux Support Vendor.
In my experience (and I've only had a few ISPs, and one of them was my old college), they only _say_ that you have to use WinXX to access their systems, because that's all they support. I've always been able to figure out what their software was doing and configure ppp to work, but then again I've never had a national ISP.
Try 127.0.0.1 as the DNS (Score:2)
So, in short, Linux users don't need to know the ISP's DNS servers, although they could configure them to be forwarders to reduce some traffic. Windows users, however, since they don't normally have a local nameserver, can't use the root nameservers, as AFAIK, the root server will not answer recursive queries.
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I Don't Get It (Score:2)
1> dial their 800 number
2> login as guest
3> goto their website
4> fill out the form
5> hit submit
6> receive an username/pw/local access number
???
_______________________________________________
There is no statute of limitation on stupidity.
Support vs. tolerance (Score:2)
As others have pointed out, the bottom line is that *every* network connection comes down to a handful of parameters which easily fit onto an index card. Either the company can provide them or they're blowing smoke and *can't* be trusted. Period.
(That said, some networks, esp. cable modems, use additional authenication methods. But again they should be able to concisely describe it ("kerberos with extensions) instead of waving the magic "proprietary software" wand.)
Can WINE provide a solution? (Score:2)
Wine runs the AOL software just fine for the most part, but as far as I know there's no way to interface the kernel's networking code with AOL's PPP connection (ie. I want to be connected to AOL through WINE and be able to use all the command line net utilities.
I don't know enough about the internals of WINE to discover whether this is feasable. Does anyone know how hard this would be to implement, or how you'd even do it?
Re:Quest & Microsoft (Score:2)
You have to support both TCP/IP and OSes (Score:2)
Where you're correct is that at the very least, the second-tier support personnel at an ISP should know enough about TCP/IP to be able to troubleshoot a connection. Most first-tier support personnel have been trained to read off a troubleshooting chart, but not what to do when there are problems that are off the list. It would be great if all support personnel were trained in these arts, but as much as I would have liked to see it back when I was doing Windows 95 support, it just isn't cost effective. Training is time is money, and most support companies are reluctant to spend any money they don't feel like they have to. Unfortunately they haven't figured out yet that they really have to.
--
Re:It works fine under NT. (Score:2)
I seem to recall a registry hack that made games think that NT was really 9x and play instead of displaying a simliar message. Perhaps it would help?
See this great NT Registry Page [jsiinc.com]
Here is more info from a different site [iscool.net]
How can I bypass "This game require Windows 95" ?
The SETWIN95.CMD program has the ability to make a program think it is running under Windows 95. If a game comes up with a message like "This game requires Windows 95" when you try to run the game, then you can try SETWIN95.CMD on To use SETWIN95 do the follow: Put in the NT 4.0 CD, Copy setwin95.cmd and imagecfg.exe from \support\debug\i386 in your system path. You can use SETWIN95 with setwin95 title.exe.
Re:This Kind Of BS Is Too Common (Score:4)
This was a fairly small ISP, so it might be that only the larger ISPs make silly requirements like Qwest has.
The reason Qwest requires Win9x is to simplify support. NT is very different to configure for dial-up than 9x is, and don't even talk about Linux or Mac (or BeOS, or any other O/S). They want to be able to offer good support. What they don't seem to realize is that most Linux users won't call for tech supp, or if they do, it's because they want to know the IP of the DNS servers, or ask some other intelligent question, instead of calling up and saying "I can't connect" and expecting the tech to fix it.
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This Kind Of BS Is Too Common (Score:4)
In most of these cases even the $20+/- mo ISP deals required the use of proprietary software (or customized versions of common software) a'la the Qwest deal in order to be able to sign up. After about 2-3 hours of searching for the right deal, I finally decided on an acceptable deal from MindSpring which was *primarily* based on the fact that they had a client which supported NT (I've got NT on my laptop, as well as Linux) and also happened to publish their networking info so you could hand-configure a client as well.
I was pretty annoyed that all the "great" deals required that you use Windows 95/98. Not only is this a reinforcement of the Microsoft monopoly (are they paying ISPs to do this?), but it requires one to use an OS with no security and poor stability regardless of whether or not you are a user of greater technical sophistication and higher requirements.
Essentially, people who know what they are doing are being require to pay a premium for service that will support them, even if their service needs (simple e-mail and connectivity) happen to match up with the lower level users. Why should I have to pay more for the SAME service just because I want to use Linux, or even NT?
One comment.. (Score:2)
A "semi-local" ISP, Texas.net, doesn't really care what OS you use. Yeah, they only do tech support for Windows and I think Mac, but do you really need some annoying registration process that requires certain software? They don't seem to think so. Personally, I've found that it's quite simple to set up dial-up on Windows without knowing a damn thing about their configuration or anything else besides the phone number. :)
You don't have to spend money on tech support, you just say that Linux is not supported, but that we don't require you to use something else. Registration doesn't have to be all complicated. It's ridiculously easy, in fact. At least it is with ISPs like Texas.net, since they don't dick you around. :)
Mindspring for national (Score:3)
Link to Qwest is broken. (Score:2)
instead of http://www.qwest.com
Contact Info (Score:4)
Thier account do work in Linux! (Score:4)
I have been a customer of Qwest since early this year. I was happy when they lowered by monthy service charge and gave me a internet account. I was a little anoyed when I had to use a windoze box to set up my account. After installing thier custom netscape, and going through the sign up process, I simply copied down the:
- username
- password
- mail server
- pop server
- news server addresses.
After this I simply set up my linux box in the same fashion.I Agree they should have a less windows centric approach to the internet account setup. They should atleast offer an advanced setup option.
BTW they are using concentric's dial up lines. see www.concentric.com for access numbers.
Re:Worthiness of Linux users (Score:2)
On an aside, we do support any and all OS' with reasonable TCP/IP support, and we set up our customers' computers in our shop (for free) if they cannot do it themselves... There are still good ISPs out there :-)
How to avoid Qwest required set-up (Score:2)