Is There REALLY an IT Worker Shortage in the US? 343
dwalker asks: " I found a disturbing manifesto while I was investigating the H-1B situation. Dr. Norman Matloff is a computer science teacher at UC Davis and he makes some radical claims about the tech industry including ,
'Rampant age discrimination...at age 35', H-1B workers as cheap labor and 'Indentured Servants' , and he claims that there is no labor shortage. His testimony was presented to the U.S House Subcommittee on Immigration in 1998 right before the last H-1B visa increase. Plus he has quotes and documentation to back up his claims, everything from personal e-mail to articles in the Washington Post. I'm not in the workforce yet but if this guy is right my CS Degree isn't gonna mean much. I'm curious what the tech community at large thinks of this guy and his claims, especially now after 2 years?"
Re:no labor shortage, for certain values of 'labor (Score:2)
From an H-1B's POV (Score:5)
1. More people in a project means more efficiency.
2. More managers also implies more efficiency.
3. More analysts are also better.
4. More meetings are great as well.
Needless to say, I disagree with all these. Very few Americans who are CS degree holders want to
be programming after 5 years on the job. A lot less number of folks from other background who
just had some HTML-ASP course want to actually do coding for more than a year. Everyone wants to be an analyst or coordinator or manager or the idea guy. If they need to code, they are unhappy and thanks to the citizenship, they can easily change jobs - that said, I've really seen employee shortage atleast around DC area. And many American companies' IT departments seldom follow any kind of written standards for software projects - I'm talking about companies with primary business NOT being software development. This makes it very difficult to cope up with a change in work force.
what corporate America needs is experienced work force and some decent HR policies to keep them.
My suggestions:
1. No need to increase the H-1B cap, this just makes it worse.
2. Relax the H-1B restrictions so that changing employers are easier.
Isn't America built upon the principles of competition? This will help keep the pay higher, and will certainly make employers see the light in hiring experienced American employees.
3. After 6 years on H-1B, one needs to take an year out of USA. Lift this restriction.
This will help the employers and employees financially.
4. And for God's sake, before any one starts on an IT project, have a plan before the first line of code is written or the first resource is committed.
About the report of the Professor, it just seems like a political rhetoric, in tune with the rest of the world. I say this because before USA, I had worked in Europe, Middle East and Japan. And India. Similar sons-of-soil preachers are on the rise there too.
It makes sense about a small % of H-1Bs are really really good though. And that the emphasis should be made on general programming talent and learnability.
Less hours/more pay... (Score:2)
Serious question, that. Because while I'm older than the 20-somethings and can't work 16 hour days on a regular basis anymore (my health suffers), I'm definitely no slacker. If you look at the current project I'm on, there may have been an entire team working on the product, often working 14 hour days, but I bet that I personally wrote close to 50% of the lines of code in the product.
So SHOULD I be paid the same as some twenty-something college dropout slacker who knows nothing and thinks he knows everything? I don't think so. Luckily my employer agrees.
-E
Shortage of specific workers (Score:2)
I know of one company that thought they could hire good programmers for $40,000 per year. They advertised for months, and were complaining about the IT worker shortage. Then they went to a recruiter. The recruiter calmly told them that a) the skill set they were advertising was very specialised and would cost them $120,000 per year, and b) if they relaxed their requirement for a particular object-orient language to simply requiring that the employee know object-oriented programming, they could get an employee for around $70-$90K/year. After a big gulp, they said "Okay." Three days later both open positions were filled.
There was no shortage of workers, just a shortage of workers willing to work for a ridiculously low wage. That is true of most open positions out there.
-E
Re:He's certainly on target about age discriminati (Score:2)
Electronic submission has made it worse. Any job position gets a boatload of resumes, many of which aren't particularly qualified (though it typically doesn't help when ads always ask for more than they could expect to get).
Compound that with resumes that inflate and exagerate -- not only do you have to sift through all the resumes, but you have to determine what they really mean.
HR has brought this on themselves, of course -- they respond to bullshit, they ask for bullshit, and so they get lots of bullshit. But even an enlightened individual in HR can't change the system.
--
Re:My Hiney (Score:2)
That's such an easy way for companies to con their employees! If they added to your salary what they paid on the drink subsidary, you wouldn't notice. The trouble is, for most companies, free drinks are something like Pepsi. They could do their employees a favour be at least supplying free drinks that are good for them! Kind of callous otherwise!
Re:The big arguments (Score:2)
Lots of greedy people? (Score:2)
In somes ways, keeping wages down is to our advantage. Software development is already hideously expensive. If wages spiral out of control companies are either going to stop developing software, or move overseas. If they move their development efforts overseas, they'll hire even more foreign workers. Moving software development overseas will also mean fewer positions for support staff, admins, janitors, etc. That sounds worse to me than allowing more H1's in. This situation is very feasible: I'm currently consulting for a company in Silicon Valley, but I don't live in the US (I'm waiting for an H1). They've also hired a team in India for one project.
I can't say that I'm complaining about high wages myself. When my H1 comes through I will be taking a huge pay cut to become a full time employee... I'll still be earning *a lot* more than the median mentioned in the article (and I don't plan on living in San Jose either). I'm not worried about other H1's either. I get job security by being good at my job. I just get annoyed with this stereotype of H1's being under-payed: the majority of the ones I've worked with in the past have been very well compensated, and if not, have successfull resolved their issues.
Re:Lots of greedy people? (Score:2)
Re:Not Really true. (Score:2)
That isn't quite true. You're judging the rest of the world through American eyes. However, not all places operate the same way as the US. I've been an H1, and I'm from the UK, which contrary to popular belief there isn't a third world country! I didn't need to come from a well-off background. I didn't need money. At the time the government paid all tuition fees. They also paid a grant to cover living expenses. There were also interest free "top-up" student loans available. I didn't need to work during the holidays (although I did). The university's facilities were good enough that I didn't need my own computer, and I only bothered buying about 6 books total! I've also come to realise that I have benefitted from an exceptionally good education which is opening many doors for me in N. America. I've had a good start to life courtesy of the British government and British tax payers (it makes me feel kind of bad that all of my taxes are now going to other countries... but not that bad
As for the economic theory (I'm not an economist, so I'm not sure if I can express my ideas clearly)... it seems to me that not allow H1's will decrease the supply of good software engineers (or programmers, system analysts, etc)., and increase the costs of software development. This is really a bad thing because the actual market for software developers extends beyond US borders. As the costs within the US increase, it becomes more financially viable for companies to move their efforts offshore. Personally I would rather let in a bunch of H1's than have a company takes its business elsewhere.
Re:Why do you list your age on your resume? (Score:2)
I will assume that this is not a troll and try to give a straight answer...
There are many ways to deduce a person's age! When did they graduate? Are they married? What schools in the area are appropriate for their kids (high school or elementary)? Business-related chit-chat ("...remember the Christmas wreaths made from punch cards?").
If the company asks for a complete work history and you only list jobs from the last five years, that is cause for instant dismissal, and it will be noted that you lied on your application.
OpenSourcerers [opensourcerers.com]
no labor shortage, for certain values of 'labor' (Score:4)
Re:Stating The Obvious (Score:2)
Hmm. Just now I had a profound thought. What about a new fraternal organization for the high-tech, you know, like the Elks, Masons, Moose, or Water Buffalos? Yeah, I could dig that... Anyone know of one? I think someone needs to get going on that right away.
Re:Great! (Score:2)
Um, actually, the Libertarian party platform opens up US borders far more than they already are - basically letting anyone in.
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com [velocinews.com])
A modest proposal (Score:2)
I think we ought to open our doors to green cards, not H1B visas. The only thing the H1B visa thing does is drive down wages. Which, in turn, discourages new people from joining the field. Not a good long-term solution.
Of course, if we flooded the US with good, cheap, long-term laborers (instead of short-termers), then people will get taken advantage of. The only answer I can see is unionization. I hate unions, but I fear that this will be the only way that I will ever be able to work a 40 hour week. Not have 5 workers in an office designed for 1. Be able to get a chair that doesn't cause severe upper back pain. The list goes on and on.
I really, really don't like unions. I think they were very useful in their day, but I don't think modern unions are fighting a good fight. The tech industry is one industry that I think needs a union. Where the original purpose for unions is still necessary.
Culture? (Score:2)
have been in business since 1920, or for industries that have "Culture", like a theatre,
or an oil exploration company, or maybe a recording studio.
Tech companies don't have "culture"
Everybody that works there, works there because
they get a bi-weekly paycheck. That's it. That's
the culture. How one "fits into" such a culture
is a no-brainer.
If you were applying to Lloyd's of London or the
Wall Street Journal or something like that, they might be able to make the case that there's a certain culture beyond the usual corporate deal.
Re:My hiring experience differs (Score:2)
positions, and that this rate is typical in the industry."
This is a blatant case of spin-doctoring.
The 2% rate shouldn't seem atypical to anyone who's done staffing for specialized jobs. Even
in food service, you might have one position available and have 200 people respond to your ad.
Now, a restaurant will probably hire the first dishwasher or hostess or whoever and stop taking
applicants, but a chem-eng r&d job might not get
filled for months, while applicants come and go.
Just because you only hire one person for a job that a hundred people applied for should be no cause for alarm.
Re:He's certainly on target about age discriminati (Score:2)
Good news: at 42, I'm the baby of the group. It looks like we'll be able to do the job in 40-hour weeks (i.e., no overtime), we're getting the training we need, & life is good.
The bad news: the week before we kicked off this project, I mentioned to one of my coworkers (his age is about 50) about my fear that I could get laid off work & it would take months to find another job. He understood me without much effort: when you've been in the corporate jungle^Wworld for a couple of decades, you've seen people screwed out of their rightful pay, pensions, & rewards in order to keep some PHB happy & content. Laying people off because they are ``too old" is just one more ugly stunt.
I wish I had better advice than to always keep looking over your shoulder, & never relax concerning your security. Even if your boss, & your boss's boss are clued & cool, they can be replaced in a matter of weeks, & your nice little job that you hoped to retire from has turned into a greased chute into hell.
Geoff
Re:The new slave class (OT) (Score:2)
I think that's more a sociological sort of thing as opposed to a technology constraint.
I am a software engineer. I tell my boss what it is I want to do, and how long it will take me to do things. I also tell him I'm spending a day this week browsing the web and playing about to learn some new technology he doesn't even know about, and I am spending half a day every week to go chat to the guys in another team entirely just so I can keep up to date with what they're playing with.
I work flexible hours - nominally 9-5.30, in practice usually 8 till 6, but I often take 2 hour lunch breaks and it's not unusual to get in at 10 and leave at 4.
Now compare a friend of mine at another company. She does, on the surface, the same job as me. She has to be in for 9, can't leave before 6, has to take no more than 1 hour for lunch between 12 and 2, gets given more work than she can handle, has no choice in what that work is, and doesn't even get web access. People at my level in her organisation get paid less than I do too.
So technology is not the differentiator here. Management practices are. Control your managers, don't work for companies that treat workers badly and you can avoid a 'slave class'. Compare working in a cube to working in a sweat shop - trust me, you don't have any problems..
~Cederic
Just cheapskate IT companies... (Score:2)
It is common for jobs to require experience in a specific compiler, or even a specific version of a compiler, not just C++. Employers arent interested in skills, they're interested in buzzwords - agencies cater for this by essentially stripping your CV down to a list of keywords (I've seen a few agencies' CVs... they are awful).
This is the only industry where people can require '2 Years Microsoft Visual C++ Service Pack 4' and still complain about a lack of candidates...
(you may laugh... I was once turned down for a job because I had been using VC 4.2 not 5.0).
You still see the occasional job which requires 8 years java experience... even though java isn't 8 years old.
Tony
Re:Stating The Obvious (Score:2)
Replace "has to pay" with "supposed to pay".
It has been well documented that some companies have paid well under prevailing wages to their H1B employees. I know from past experience that it can take years for the government to handle these cases, assuming they decide to prosecute at all. Too many sleazebag managers have the attitude that laws are for the losers who get caught.
So what am I to do? (Score:2)
My area of expertise will not be around forever - it pays well now and finding work is easy, but what happens to me when the next big thing comes around and I am 33?
Management here I come!
-josh
Re:My Hiney (Score:2)
If you keep foreign IT workers out of the US to restrict the supply of IT workers in the US and raise salaries, US companies will be less competitive with foreign companies, not only because of the higher domestic salaries, but also because they just freed up lots of IT workers to work abroad.
Competition with other businesses and market elasticity is why companies cannot raise IT salaries arbitrarily, no matter how restricted the supply of IT workers may become.
Re:retraining, wages, and competition and all that (Score:2)
No, merely saying it isn't going to get you a job. But being competent and informed during an interview is.
I've interviewed lots of people for technical positions. If you know your stuff, it makes no difference to me where you learned it. In fact, many of the people I have worked with come from non-computer backgrounds are are self-taught. To me, that actually demonstrates interest, breadth, and commitment that goes beyond the easy way of just picking a lucrative major and drifting through school. If you don't know your stuff, the most impressive background on your resume won't help.
IT companies who import workers have to pay MUCH higher wages in the US than they do abroad. The incentive to set up low wage programming shops has been IMMENSE for many years. There are in fact such shops, most notably in India. The problem is that there are tremendous communications difficulties that make development of a team impossible, and team building is perhaps the most critical element determining the success or failure of a programming project.
You are completely right: communications and team building are probably the biggest obstacles for why jobs don't move overseas. But the reason why those teams have been built here is because it has been easy for US companies to bring people in to work on existing teams here and because there are some advantages to have the teams here (access to capital markets).
But those are minor advantages. If you make it significantly harder than it is now to bring the workers in, companies will just move whole teams and several levels of management above them elsewhere. And given that many IT workers are already of foreign origin, it wouldn't be hard to find the people to build those teams to move overseas.
The real reason to object to the mass importation of H1B IT workers is that it is ruining the education system in this country, distorting the employment marketplace, and destroying the attractiveness of technical careers in the minds of the youth in this country.
If you look at the history of this, the US ruined its educational system long before H1Bs were of much significance. And your comment shows why: many people in the US view education as a means to a high paying career and as a market-driven commodity. (And what kind of IT workers do you expect to get anyway if people just go into the field for the money?)
The US educational system won't get fixed until Americans start valuing education as an end in itself and are willing to shift national priorities to pay for it.
Re:More workers in US = more US taxes paid (Score:2)
H1B reality (Score:2)
I have changed jobs on an H1B, and it was a quick and easy process.
The H1B is a work visa. If you don't have an H1B, you can't work, but you can stay in the country on some other visa.
The green card application used to be fairly quick. It's only since 1998 that processing times have skyrocketed, due to INS internal administrative problems. This has caused a lot of other serious problems in addition to tying employees to a particular employer for a couple of years. The solution to that is to fix the INS.
And the new H1B bill actually addresses this issue, allowing most people to change jobs while their green card application is pending.
Re:retraining, wages, and competition and all that (Score:2)
But I agree that the US should probably abolish H1B's altogether and just go directly to a skill-based immigration (green card) system at whatever level the US feels comfortable with.
That appears to have been the original intent of the US immigration system, and having the current H1B-to-green card system only increases administrative loads and puts both employees and employers at unnecessary risk.
I've been there, you apparently haven't (Score:2)
If you know your stuff, people don't care where you learned it.
Last time I checked, the waiting time for a green card has grown beyond the time you're allowed to stay with an H1B.
Well, that's wrong on several accounts. First, even under pretty bad conditions, getting a green card takes less than six years. Second, after the initial stages of the green card application have been processed, most people can continue to work indefinitely until the INS gets around to processing their application. There are lots of people that are getting screwed by INS regulations, but on average, the process works in a slow but predictable manner.
Did you ever think about WHY IT workers are mobile? Because they're paid enough to move. H1B's can move, but they're not going to. Read up on H1B to see why.
I have changed jobs on an H1B. It's a quick and simple procedure. There was nothing my former employer could have done to stop me. The notion that H1B's somehow tie employees to employers is fiction.
challenge to Matloff: produce actual resumes (Score:3)
With all these supposedly out of work, over the hill, US-born computer programmers, where are the resumes of these people? People in SV are desparately looking for qualified programmers. Yet, they don't seem to get any applicants, and they are nowhere to be seen online either. Why doesn't Matloff take some pro-active measures and actually create a job web site for the people he claims to care so much about?
My challenge to Matloff is this: put up or shut up. If there are large crowds of qualified, unemployed programmers, do everybody a favor and publish their resumes so that employers can find them.
Re:Yep the "labor shortage" IS Crap (Score:4)
MCSE, MCDBA, and NCA about commoditizing basic computer management skills. It's roughly the equivalent of learning some skills as part of working at a food or car maintenance franchise. That's hardly the sort of thing that commands high salaries. In fact, the thing that makes Microsoft software so popular with management is the promise that it makes IT functions supposedly easy enough so that anybody can be trained to perform them.
Of course, just like MacDonald's didn't eliminate the need for good, experienced chefs, Microsoft hasn't eliminated the need for good, experienced IT staff. At best, you can use an MCSE as a stepping stone to getting some real experience. If you don't quickly broaden your horizons beyond MCSE, you are likely going to see yourself out of a job pretty soon.
The new slave class (Score:2)
The more our numbers grow, the more we become dispensible. Perhaps it's time we unionize.
Re:He's certainly on target about age discriminati (Score:2)
--Ben
Regardless of the claims... (Score:3)
Regardless of the claims of worker shortages, I know several IT people, those who are just starting out as well as those who've been employed for years and are now looking for other work, who aren't finding work as easily as they did two years ago. Or even last year. The jobs aren't paying as much, there isn't the sense that the company is desperate to find someone to do the work...
I'm in the Midwest (Wisconsin), so maybe the situation is different toward the coasts, but you no longer hear of newly graduated/newly certified people getting top-dollar jobs, as they did in the recent past.
Re:From an H-1B's POV (Score:2)
Why are you not getting 100% of the market rate? Is it because you're willing to accept 90% because back home you'd get way less than that? I don't blame you for coming here. There certainly are opportunities here. I just wish you'd demand that 100%. I'm assuming your skills and experience justify it, if not more.
Many corporations, maybe most corporations, really treat people badly, and often have no clue that this is what is going on. Right out of college, people are very gung-ho about working in high-tech, and are willing to work 80 hours for 40 hours pay. But within 5 years most realize they are getting shafted by corporations in the process. Many are married by then, and those that aren't realize the hours are why they aren't.
I suspect one reason people want to be the analyst or the idea person is because they often are working where the "ideas" come from PHBs who are clueless about the technology. I've personally experienced this a few times where the "ideas" were totally lame, totally without vision, and doomed to fail. Their only defense is they use the old argue "If you assume it will fail, it will fail". But assuming success cannot make a bad idea work. If better ideas were being worked on in a corporation, maybe people would be happy to stick around and make them work. If managers would work directly with the techies to come up with ideas, I think that would help a lot.
Corporate America really can keep their work force, and keep not only the technical experience but also the company experience, by creating a decent job atmosphere to work in, and compensating people at market levels (even if it means a programmer makes more money than the manager he works for).
I'd agree with this.
That makes sense, too
I don't know that it will make much difference one way or the other. It certainly would make for more continuity.
Absolutely! But I don't know if Corporate America knows how to do this. They certainly aren't listening to the suggestions from techies.
I certainly think all borders should be open for people to go work wherever they want, if a job is available (e.g. all you need to get in is a job offer). And it does seem like what companies in America are wanting, and getting, is not really a true workforce, but just a team of slave labor. This is due to the restrictions that exist which effectively pin people into one job. It would be nice if you didn't have to leave your home country to get a decent job. I'd like to see you be able to go back to India (if that's where you ultimately want to live) and start a business, create jobs, and help the economy there.
One other thing I see wrong with Corporate America is that they don't know how to go about communicating with techies to even find people that they might hire. Recruitment is in a sorry state right now, and the job web sites don't help at all.
Re:severe shortage in Boston (Score:2)
Here's how to figure it whether the salary worthwhile, in my opinion. Starting where the job is located, draw rings (not exactly round) on the map at 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes and 40 minutes, for average commute time one way. Now find out what the median (not average) home price is for the areas within the ring (but not including the ones in the inner ring for outer ones). Multiply the median for the 10-20 minute range by 1.333, the 20-30 minute range by 1.667, and the 30-40 minute range by 2. Now average these 4 numbers together. Now determine the ratio of salary to the average.
Now figure out this ratio not only in Boston, but in other areas, including suburbs of Boston, and other cities in the country. You can change the times and multiplies to match up with different levels of importance for different lifestyles but the above is probably a decent starting point.
Different kinds of jobs will have different ratios, of course. A programming job should get at least 0.5. In California, the ratios are much lower due to extremely inflated housing prices. Shift the pricing to apartment lease rates for a different perspective on it (California still loses). Is Boston somewhere peope really want to live in?
Re:I don't buy it (Score:2)
Maybe more companies should leave California.
Re:age discrimiation (Score:2)
I wouldn't want to work for Intel anyway. I know they have some good people working there, but the quality of their products is going downhill, so it must be the silly bureaucracy of the company. It's already obvious based on some of the lame answers I get on their own USENET site from people that I know actually know the right answers, but aren't allowed to tell the truth. So if Intel complains about lack of IT workers, what they are really complaining about is lack of secretaries with CS or EE degrees.
Re:IT Worker Shortage? Hell yes. (Score:2)
The pay scale should vary by experience, and it will be influenced by how much experience does value a business. The high pay is expected because some businesses are indeed paying that. They are paying that because they recognize that they need to have the clueful person on staff to make a difference in their company. The probably hired them away from someone company that just didn't give a damn. The problem is that other company won't change.
Re:IT Worker Shortage? Hell yes. (Score:2)
The simple solution for Corporate America is to NOT have so many job openings. Make the jobs themselves look as scarce as their tendencies to hire really are. Then people will expect less, and they can hire them for less.
There is a shortage of clueful corporate executives and HR directors.
Re:IT Worker Shortage? Hell yes. (Score:2)
Why are you wanting to hire a QA engineer to sit and follow an existing test plan, instead of developing them? That's not an engineer's job. That's a test TECHNICIAN. I would not have taken said job for any LESS than $150k because it's TOO LOW for me (yes, my demand goes UP for mismatched jobs, even for lower level ones).
Re:CS Sucks (Score:2)
Re:Mediocrity is in demand (Score:2)
There is demand for people who can make things happen. And suits do think that means high-tech skills. And indeed high-tech skills could do it were it not for the bureaucracy ingrained into so many corporations that effectively squashes any ability to do this. A few months ago I reported a bug on the web site of a major high tech company. I did get a followup inquiry back, and explained the problem further and gave a solution. They told me they didn't have the authority to fix the problem, but would try to contact someone at another office who handled the contracting to a web site development company who had contractors doing the work. I could tell that company was in a mess. I know I wouldn't want to work there (and no, it was not Apple).
I recently changed jobs. It doesn't fit that profile at all. But I've worked in the past for places that have lots of people just as you describe. I do believe what you say.
It's all about whose nose gets the brownest.
Send me your resume. If you can't crack my e-mail, you wouldn't qualify :-)
And there's probably some resentment over the fact that the Internet caught nearly every business by surprise, and it's us techies who actually created it.
Or maybe you just wouldn't "fit in" :-)
The coming shortage caused by H1B (Score:3)
With more Americans not getting programmer jobs, and more H1B workers taking them instead, and going back home after they can't, or won't, work here anymore, there will come to be a new and real shortage ... of people who have actual long term programing experience to take jobs as project leaders and managers. We'll be effectively sending that experience overseas.
CS degrees are not so useless, after all (Score:2)
So, unless you're one of those rare (in my experience) CS majors who aspire to nothing more than being a sysadmin, nettech, or other various support roles, your job outlook is still quite positive. (Note to sysadmins/nettechs/others: I'm not saying that your jobs are easy or useless or whatever other connotation you derive from the above, but simply that they typically don't require a Computer Science degree).
Then again, there's something to be said about continuing on through grad school to get a Master's or even a PhD. I'll probably do that myself, one of these days, but my BS in CS is currently "good enough".
IT Worker Shortage? Hell yes. (Score:3)
I dont think it's so much a matter of education as it is a matter of having skills. More and more these days, IT jobs have a pretty wide spectrum of possibiliies for demonstrating that you have experience... You know, "Bachelors degree and 2 years experience OR 4 years related experience." sort of things. The problem is, most places arent willing to go to the line when it comes to salaries. For example, I could get a position here at the University doing system administration, but i'd have to take 10-15K below industry standard wage since the University cant afford to keep step with the rest of the industry. To make matters worse, they invite recruiters onto campus to gobble up most people before they even graduate.
Theres a point of diminishing returns..Your peak of marketability is what matters. A subtle formula of age, skills, and competencies.
Bowie J. Poag
Re:Because it is illegal. (Score:2)
There are ways of gleaning this information during an interview. Questions like, "Do you have any problems with working round the clock when we head into a crunch time? This is a salaried rather than hourly position."
I am a person who is married, has 2 kids and would love to work a moderately sane schedule. Supervisors above my immediate boss are more than willing to let me know that people like me are a dime a dozen. Mainly, because they can hire new inexperienced bodies or visa labor for less. They may get what they pay for, but their main concern is the bottom line on payroll. Penny wise and pound foolish, they do not have a clue about the services they manage.
Until I can line up a position which pays at or above where I am, I am trapped taking the crap and lousy hours (60 is tame) because I do have a wife and 2 kids to support. At the same time, if you go looking and they find out, things can get very nasty.
P.S. I am a systems administrator who has done work in BSD, Linux, Novell, NT, and OS/2. Additionally, I have a programming background with 13 languages when I graduated from college (about 10 yrs ago). Currently, I am programming in VB, Perl, C, C++, and Java. Because of being a one man show, I am a jack of all trades and a master of none. Aside from cramming in the RHCE over a year ago, it is hard to get focus time when you are too busy watching your vacation time being flushed every year and any comp time you earn over 120 hrs gets flushed immediately.
More workers in US = more US taxes paid (Score:2)
Because it is illegal. (Score:5)
The prospective employer cannot whether know Candidate B is married or has kids because these are illegal, discriminitory interview questions. Therefore the employer has no (legal) way to make this "value for their money" comparison.
Re:CS degrees are not so useless, after all (Score:2)
For most sysadmin/programming jobs I've ever seen, most companies want a CS degree. Why? Who knows.
Re:Degrees worthless anyway (Score:2)
If MCSE is simply listed in with some other certifications, at the back of the resume, and they didn't make a big deal out of it, and if their resume shows that they aren't brainwashed by the man... fine.
Oh.. btw... new MCSE grads *ARE* useful as Jr. IT types if you have NT stuff to work with. Just don't give them power until you've reeducated them.
Re:CS degrees are not so useless, after all (Score:2)
The first things I look at are 'last few jobs' and how the resume is written in general.
Re:Well.. (Score:2)
Of course, the one thing is, what constitutes a 'line'... that's changing... and depends on what kind of project it is.
You are so right. They are afraid not to look busy (so am I). I know in my own programming, sometimes 3/4 of the day is spent figuring out the best way to solve a problem, and at the end of the day, usually spitting out some nice, clean code that I am happy to put aside and work on the next bit.
Re:Well.. (Score:2)
I heard a story from an anonymous colleague. THey do internal software development for use within their company. Safe to say, what the programmers produce is critical to the business model of the company. The software makes it work.
One day he told me 'yeah, we're ditching the SUN stuff and going to these big Linux servers'. I said 'that's neat.. but why are you doing it? You ahve a big SUN investment already. Not working for you?'.
THe answer? "The programmers are doing all their development on Linux, and when they port it, it causes problems, so they want us to use Linux instead of SUN".
Wow. What inane twisted logic. Seriously. As a systems person, I would think one would chose SUN for whatever reasons they chose it; support, reliability, scalability, whatever.... and the programmers *JOB* should be to write software *FOR THAT SYSTEM*. Talk about screwed up.
Now.. of course, I don't work there, and I may have the story completely wrong.... but that's what it sounded like to me.
And this wansn't due to some big 'flaw' in SUN systems... simply taht they were developing solely on Linux, and viewed porting to sun as an 'extra step imposed on them by Management'.
Well.. (Score:4)
I've seen this 'aging IT worker' shortage happen.
Let me say.. I know several 50+ year old programmers who are worth *TEN* younger programmers. Sure, their attitudes are different. Sure.. they don't put up with 80 hour workweeks.
And they produce nice, clean code at an amazingly steady rate. Oh sure, it might be 4 or 5 or maybe 10 lines of perfect code a day....
But that's awesome!
WHen they say something will take them 10 days? It takes them 10 days.
Re:retraining, wages, and competition and all that (Score:5)
A programmer who has been out of work and hasn't even bothered as much as to learn Perl or Java does not seem to be a very attractive candidate, simply because they don't seem very motivated or interested in the job.
The problem with this statement is that employers are requiring two years or more experience in the given technology. Saying that I took the time to study J2EE while I was unemployed is NOT going to get me a job. Even more egregious are the insane advertisements "require - 5 years programming experience with C#,
The argument for keeping foreign IT workers out of the US is that that would allow US workers to take those jobs, or at least increase demand and raise wages.
But that is illusory. If the foreign IT workers can't come here, they'll simply work for a subsidiary or contracting firm in Europe or Asia.
Nice theory, but it just doesn't work that way. IT companies who import workers have to pay MUCH higher wages in the US than they do abroad. The incentive to set up low wage programming shops has been IMMENSE for many years. There are in fact such shops, most notably in India. The problem is that there are tremendous communications difficulties that make development of a team impossible, and team building is perhaps the most critical element determining the success or failure of a programming project.
The real reason to object to the mass importation of H1B IT workers is that it is ruining the education system in this country, distorting the employment marketplace, and destroying the attractiveness of technical careers in the minds of the youth in this country. Who wants to become a computer programmer when you are going to be working in a group of expatriats? What is the potential for long term career advancement when you are in that sort of atmosphere? In reality is it any different than saying that you want to become a farm worker and compete with illegal immigrants in their labor market?
NO, it is not. The fact of the matter is that by importing large number of H1B workers into the US, we are surpressing the natural rise in wages that would occur in the presence of a real labor shortage. This rise in wages WOULD encourage companies to invest in training, spur US colleges and universities to expand their programs in the fields of interest and otherwise. What is happening instead is that Colleges and Universities OUTSIDE the US are expanding their IT programs in order to fill the needs of their students who wish to immigrate to the US.
It is my own opinion that the H1B program is the worst public policy imaginable, and policy makers in the US will rue the day this was passed.
shortage and H1B (Score:2)
It really sucks! Yes, there definetely is no shortage of applicants for IT jobs. However, my boss will tell you (as several people have told you already in here), there is a HUGE shortage of QUALIFIED IT workers.
Then people will argue that companies should not hire H1Bs, instead they should rehire these older people and re-train them (and yet still pay them the huge wages they've expected to earn coding cobol). Bullshit. It is your duty to keep your skills up to date. Just like doctors always have to keep up with the latest and greatest equipment and drugs. If you're not willing to do that, too bad for you.
Now comes the H1B part. My boss didn't specifically look at H1B workers. I just happen to work there as an intern and I was (apparently) so good that he made me an offer I could not refuse.
The indentured servant argument is crap - and my boss knows that as well (he's always doing everything he can to keep me a happy employee). I can change job anytime I want (yes, there is a bit of paperwork involved) and I am not exactly making minimum wages either.
Before I get the hundreds of reply with the usual "I know 27 H1B workers from india that work for $3/hour, etc.. etc.." I will just put my standard disclaimer: EVERY law in the book gets broken by some people, and I am sure that the H1B laws are no exceptions. If you see companies/employees breaking the H1B rules and regulations, report them and stop bitching. And yes, I think that these cases are the exception rather than the rule. You may say that most H1B you see are in that situation, but guess what? It's always the bad ones that stand out. The good ones, you may not even know they are H1Bs (not exactly tattoed on our forehead).
Re:shortage and H1B (Score:2)
But I can't resist to point out one item in your reply that pretty negated your argument all together. I quote: "maybe you should simply double (or more!) the salary for the positions to further attract qualified people" if this is the case, then by basic rules of supply and demand, you are aknowledging that the shortage is qualified IT worker is in fact there. If qualified IT workers are so readily available you should not have to double (or more!) salaries (in this case based on my salary, we'd be talking $250,000 or more by the way).
Re:shortage and H1B (Score:2)
Re:shortage and H1B (Score:2)
Now, I know you may not have listed all the bodyshops from that list (and I don't enough about them to recognize them myself) but it seems that a VERY LARGE majority of the companies listed on here are very ligitimate companies such as Sisco, Motorolla and Oracle.
So again, I will say, the exceptions confirm the rule...
Re:shortage and H1B (Score:2)
Re:shortage and H1B (Score:2)
I have no desire to change job - my current job is excellent by any standards - Belgian standards, Indian standards or american standards.
Programmers are not interchangeable cogs! (Score:2)
Hit me with a clue hammer if I'm wrong here, but isn't that the case in ANY job catagory!? We are dealing with a free market after all. Businesses want to bring the cost of programming labor down... the best way to do that is to increase the labor supply. Duh!
The article also misses the point that programmers are not interchangeable cogs. Some programmers are an order of magnitude better than others and are worth paying a premium for. These are the people who are REALLY in short supply and can charge top dollar. I don't expect that situation to change no matter how many H1B visas they issue or how many new CS grads they churn out. Real talent is always a scarce commodity... and thank goodness for that! It is why I get paid way more than I am worth. ;)
Thad
Re:Programmers are not interchangeable cogs! (Score:2)
I guess it works a little differently for independent consultants vs. wage slaves. I get most of my jobs by reputation and referal. Interviews and resumes play a much diminished role for the jobs I land. I tend to turn down much more work than I accept and have the luxury of taking only those jobs that interest me.
I charge twice as much as the typical programmer, but then I have a reputation of always bringing in the project under budget and ahead of schedule, so I manage to get away with it. My clients even concede to silly demands like letting me work from home and/or flex my schedule.
Like any service or consulting industry, it is all about networking (the personal kind). You first of all must be good at what you can do, but then you also must be able to communicate that fact and sell yourself. It also helps keep a good rolodex and never loose touch with the people you meet over the years.
I'll say it again: There is ALWAYS a market for real talent.
Thad
Math useless? (Score:2)
By the way, I have to say that Dr. Matloff's assertion that mathematical background dosn't matter is simply wrong. Back in the day people entering the programming field were much more likely to have strong mathematical background than many people entering today. Of course, most of the programs written were crap, because nobody knew how to write good programs back then.
Aside from the immediate practical value of knowing discrete match, probability, algorithms and data structures, mathematics gives important practice in the intellectual skills you need to be an excellent programmer rather than a fair or even good one. The key in solving a tough mathematical problem is to find a representation of the problem with which it is convenient to solve the problem. The exact same intellectual skill is needed in functional decomposition and object oriented design.
I've often dealt with programmers who were hobbled by the inability to think sufficiently abstractly to come up with general solutions. For example, it may be that if you need to transform a certain data stream you can build a parser for the input stream's grammar instead of an ad hoc algorithm for slightly more effort. This means that you can very quickly and reliably change the software as the definition of the input stream changes; ad hoc programs tend to act like a house of cards. Skillful abstraction not only produces reusable software, but maintainable software.
Re:CS degrees don't mean shit. (Score:2)
That guy with a CS degree who couldn't code worth shit? Well, he may just have been an idiot (they do occasionally manage to get degrees of all sorts through cheating, etc.). Or, he may just be an expert in computer science and NOT programming. Would you know what he was talking about if he asked you to write a version of the quick-select (not quick-sort) algorithm that had a guaranteed worst-case running time of O(n log n)? Maybe, maybe not. You're a programmer, not a computer scientist, so it's not expected of you. Different skill sets...
Hiring people with CS degrees to be code monkeys is generally a waste. Sure, they need a year or two of experience with programming so they know what the hell is going on, but that shouldn't be their goal in life. A lot of people getting CS degrees should really be at a technical college in a two-year certification program in C++ or Java or whatever.
trend != conspiracy (Score:2)
Your point may (or may not) have merits. But I'm getting irritated at
A conspiracy is a group of people agreeing -- that is, "consipiring" -- to act in concord to some goal. A trend is a bunch of people all doing the same thing without benefit of coordination.
Since presumably you're all bright enough to know the difference between a conspiracy and trend, one is left with the conclusion that the common practice of calling trends "conspiracies" is a vacuous rhetorical move explointing the negative connotation of "conspiracy" to discredit the person discussing the trend. It is a red herring, an attempt to deliberately muddy the waters of the discussion.
It doesn't work. It just makes the respondent look dumb.
By that logic, if 20% more people buy Fruit Loops(tm) this month than last, that's a conspiracy. Try again.
Re:no labor shortage, for certain values of 'labor (Score:2)
Where IT is currently different is that the people who aren't skillful are also getting paid large amounts of money. This will change. IT is a market in transition. Because of huge information asymetries, employers cannot currently tell how much a potential employee is worth. Because of this, low skilled employees will get paid amounts similar to highly skilled (and don't try to tell me that coding in HTML and JScript deserves 60k plus). BUT, I firmly believe that current salaries are unsustainable. The amount of people wanting to move into IT means that supply will increase, driving salaries down. An increase in overall supply will also mean an increase in the supply of quality workers. As IT gradually loses it's mystery to the average CEO / CFO, and as more CEOs and CFOs with some IT experience are promoted (which will happen
Knowing how difficult most IT jobs are, the salaries they attract are disproportinaly high in comparison to the skills and experience required. I mean really, do you think a person with two years real experience is worth 80k? I don't. It's just representative that people with 2 years good experience are hard to find and that people don't know what IT is about.
Give it ten years. If you're in the industry now, make your money and get out. If you're moving into the industry now, expect you salary in 10 years to be the same as that accountant next to you, not double his. If you're in it for the money, money can be found anywhere. Better to be in it for the love of the job. Just don't expect your current salary increases to continue. (As an example, the hourly rate for SAP developers around here has droped from $120 an hour to $60 an hour in the space of a year. It does happen).
IT is just the most recent goldmine. It's not sustainable, and I firmly believe that if you're in it for the money, make your money quick.</RANT>
There. I feel better now.
Re:retraining, wages, and competition and all that (Score:2)
How So? Making unfounded claims is not what educated people do, where is the proof to back up this claim??????
Do you seriously think that you would have had such an explosion in the US economy and Tech industry if no H1-B visas were ever issued.
Look again, I can show you that nearly 40% of employees in big shot companies like Intel, Microsoft, Sun Microsystems and Cisco are or were H1-B visa holders from India or China. The pentium chips lead designer was an Indian and hotmail was started by an Indian to name a few. I don't this the above named comapnies would be where they are today if it were not for the H1-B visa and guess what neither would the US economy. This article would never have been published or would have been titled "IT labor shortage: REAL".
>>Who wants to become a computer programmer when you are going to be working in a group of expatriats?
You and your Ancestors came to this country about 200 years ago as expatriats or should I say parasites.
>>What is the potential for long term career advancement when you are in that sort of atmosphere?
Atmosphere?? What people 10 times smarter than you, around you, that makes you feel stupid and write such narrow minded posts.
>>In reality is it any different than saying that you want to become a farm worker and compete with illegal immigrants in their labor market?
If the Illegal Immigrant is smarter and more interested in working why not, Surrvival of the fittest. If you have more right to stay in this country because you were born here then native americans have more right to live here than you do, ethically speaking.Moreover H1-B's are not illegal.
Discalimer: I usualy do not right narrow minded emails such as this but, it drives me up the wall when people write without analyzing the situation at hand.
Re:He's certainly on target about age discriminati (Score:2)
I've been paid for my computer skills for 21 years. I've demonstrated ability to learn, and then teach, any technology required.
My productivity is two orders of magnitude higher than the average programmer, still even one order after I've taught them the technology.
Some companies do take a while to pass me through the required levels of their interview screen. Those that take too long, lose.
Because by then I'm working for their competition.
The companies that can recognize and hire talent, without any kind of blinders, will win. There maybe temporary blips as the job food chain is momentarily dominated by the stupids, but they'll get eaten soon enough.
Re:He's certainly on target about age discriminati (Score:2)
Ok, lets say that after taxes you're making 40k a year.
You then make 3300 a month.
You expenses equal 1200 a month.
Leaving 2100 a month in play money.
Unless I'm missing something drastic, you have plenty of money. Live reasonably!?! You can support a family of four with the money you make!
Easily!
Sheesh,
Erik Z
Re:CS degrees are not so useless, after all (Score:2)
Because they know that they will probably wind up with the best candidate having a High School diploma, "some college", and over twenty years professional software experience.
They are terrified that, if they didn't ask for a "CS", they would have to explain to senior management why they hired a perfectly qualified candidate with a High School GED.
This might cause senior management to begin wondering why they spent all that money hiring MBAs and PHDs if the company could be run by less academically qualified peasants.
Which, in turn, might cause senior management to begin an agonizing self-appraisal.
Nope, better not to start a process which culminates with senior management actually trying to think. It doesn't happen often and it's never pretty.
Nope, don't rock the boat; ask for a degree and settle for massive experience.
Re:Older workers cannot work 70-100 hours per week (Score:2)
I agree that basing hiring decisions solely on whether you will be willing and/or able to work >>40 hour weeks is stupid and shortsighted. However, in some cases I can see the logic. Say you have two 30 year old applicants for a job with equal skills. Candidate A is single and has no problem working 60 hour weeks, while B has a wife and 3 kids and wants to work only 40 hours. How can you expect the company to ignore the fact that A is going to give them more for their money?
Being willing to work longer hours is equivalent to being willing to work for less money; it's just supply and demand. Many people seem to think that having a family and children should come with zero tradeoffs, but it can't.
And yes, even if well paid, 70-100 hour work weeks == crap treatment and abuse of a salaried worker. Just like you can't justify exposing workers to workplace hazards by claiming, "they're paid well and accepted the job"
I work around 70 hours a week (with occasional /. breaks...). I am paid well, I knew what would be involved when I signed up, and my work environment is fantastic. I really don't need you to inform me that I am being "abused" and to prevent me from making voluntary and informed choices.
Re:My Hiney (Score:2)
Becasue there is. As an IT hiring manager (techie who's risen to his level of imcompedance
Pay is consumerate with difficulty of position, as it should be.
Minupla
----
Remove the rocks from my head to send email
Silicon Valley cost of living schews wage values. (Score:3)
On the other hand, in my experience there is work out there on the sysadmin side (can't speak to softeng, since I'm not one) of the fence. Even at high profile firms.
And I'm one of those people that even if IT workers got paid the same as window washers at traffic lights, I'd be doing it. No choice, it's how I'm wired. I ran a fidonet node when I was 13. Such is life
Minupla
----
Remove the rocks from my head to send email
Lack of SKILLED people, not just people (Score:2)
So in all, I can say that there definitely seems to be a shortage of CS professionals that actually really know what they are doing and that have the knowledge to be productive in writing quality software, rather than software that merely works.
All Jon Katz's fault (Score:2)
The capitalists who ru(i)n the computer industry in this country wouldn't be working so hard to scabify and undermine their employees if not for Katz, and by extension, slashdot as a whole. Why? Because this is the place where loudest of all we heard the cry "Hax0rs are the linchpin of twenty-first century America!"
Now the guys who really run this so-called democracy are the investing class; their mode of operation is to have someone else do all the work for them, and then they rake in the profits, throwing only enough crumbs to the actual workers to keep them just the down side of active revolt. Now that is a cushy job, but one which makes the jobholder plenty nervous, because obviously one could behead the five hundred richest Americans, parasites one and all, and national productivity would not decline by even an iota. (One could also hang them or stand them in front of a firing squad, or weld them into cages down in unlighted dungeons and let them starve to death. Ah fantasy!)
The point is that one could not, without dire practical consequences, behead, as a group, the programmers of America. No programmers = no programs = no software industry = dead computer industry = NASDAQ goes through the floor = rich guys's portfolios suffer grievously. For the investing/ruling class, that's still cool, so long as all the programmers aren't aware of their own power.
Everything was cool, then, until this bigmouth Katz (note: no hax0r himself, but a publicist and lay sociologist instead) started coming out with all his talk about the central economic importance of the hax0r class. So then hax0rs, especially young ones, started to imagine they could impose certain political and economic demands upon the ruling/investing class. But the r/i class is not in the least willing to share any part, no matter how small, of their overmastering power or wealth. Sure the worthless, parasitical r/i class can't write their own software, no more than they can do any work of value, and yet that software must be written to keep America's industries afloat.
But whereas hax0rs all dress funny and have rings through their noses, eyebrows and other unmentionable parts, and obviously they control no Washington lobbyists at all, in contrast, the r/i class runs Congress like whatshisname ran Charlie McCarthy. So, for the same reason that Reagan ran unemployment up to 12.0% in 1982 - that is, to smack down the labor unions and put them lowly workies down in their place - here come the software-writing scabs, with their ridiculous H1-B visas, specially crafted to deny them rights which full-fledged citizens take for granted, such as the right to trade in one massa for a better position at a competing plantation down the way.
As I say, it's all Katz's fault. If he'd kept his yap shut a little while longer, who knows how far the sinister hax0r plot for world domination (hey come to think of it, Linus Torvalds could have been a tad more discreet too) could have developed? Now, alas, history will have to wait for another Spartacus to arise.
Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
Re:My Hiney (Score:2)
What bull. If this were true, then Nurses would get paid more than Doctors, Bank Tellers more than Loan Officers, the Military would be a well paid job and Firefighters would get more than almost anyone.
You just have this problem where a bunch of petty management types aren't willing to participate in the market for people. It hurts their egos to think that a geek could make more than they do, or more than they made 10 years ago.
Now, I can easily understand where a worker is not worth more than he can bring in in revenue to the company, input from your Finance person is important, that's a reasonable way to set the upper limit on what you'll pay. But just having a bunch of HR and other management types sit around and say "that job's not so hard, it's not fair that they would get X" is just crazy.
If a job is so easy (like watching blinking lights and following a set of procedures), then it should be easy to get someone who can do it cheaply. If you can't find people to do it cheaply, then maybe you don't have an understanding of the job.
-Jordan Henderson
Re:no labor shortage, for certain values of 'labor (Score:2)
Big business didn't give a damn then about the people, they paid them as little as they could, they down-sized/right-sized/whatever-ized them into unemployment. It seems like we get screwed on the down cycles as well as the up cycles.
H1B is just another form of corporate welfare, America was built on the backs of immigrants with a strong work ethic. Parts of it were built on slave-labor even, but in this modern time should we really accept slave-labor in the IT field?
Big business is all for free-markets for their products, but when it comes to paying for required resources they are a bunch of hypocrites.
Re:Great! (Score:2)
Sure, there are some nationalistic people who want to keep foreign labor out at all costs, but those people are not libertarians in the first place.
The H1B effect (Score:2)
Each year, a new batch of H1B visa are issued and it takes 6-8 months for the quota to be filled. The contractors at RealRates can usually tell you when the quota has been filled by the change in the contract job market. Within a week or so of hitting the quota, these people report getting a huge increase in the amount of interest from job brokers. It is almost as if someone has flipped a switch and turned the job market back on.
I think this phenomenon is clear proof that H1B visas are used to supply artifically cheap labor to the IT market.
Re:retraining, wages, and competition and all that (Score:4)
That is technically true. The reality is somewhat different. Here's the reality:
1) A person with an H1B visa who is unemployed has 7 days to exit the country or be considered an illegal alien.
2) The H1B application process often takes substantially longer than a month.
3) Getting a new job requires a new H1B.
4) Early on in the H1B application process, your current employer is notified that you have applied for a new H1B.
5) Current employer says, screw you, you are fired.
6) You are deported.
Additionally, most H1B people who work for bodyshops like Tata have employment contracts that require them to pay a penalty fee for quiting before their H1B visa expires (3-6 years). Of course it isn't called a penalty fee, that would be illegal. Instead they call it reimbursement for training, legal and transportation costs. Basically if you quit a bodyshop, they want $10-20K to 'cover' their expenses for training you and importing you to the US. Doesn't matter that the costs are trumped up and that they've made them back many times over in the first 6 months of your employment.
Also, don't forget that anyone applying for a green card must stay with their current employer (often for 3-4 years) or the green card application process must start all over again.
So, you see that yeah, H1B people can technically change jobs whenever they want. But the reality is that for a large number of them it is infeasible to do so.
Re:IT Worker Shortage? Hell yes. (Score:2)
An H1-B visa is a way of bypassing the free market, and getting a worker who does not have the ability to bargain for proper compensation. They can't easily switch jobs, especially if they are applying for a green card. Thus, they do not get to participate in the "free market". That's why companies love it so much. It's why they keep pushing so hard for increases in H1-B visas. Next year they'll be asking for more. The rhetoric about the alleged "tech worker shortage" will have heated up considerably, and meanwhile, salaries will be lower and it will be more difficult for someone to actually find a job on this "free market" you are talking about.
By steadily increasing the H1-B visa cap, employers are creating a separate, non-free market where they have the upper hand and prospective employees have reduced bargaining power.
My hiring experience differs (Score:2)
There is no contradiction here. I have been hiring programmers for many years. 50 resumes to one hire is actually less discriminating than many places I know of. A professor, who flunks incompetent students, knows that there are job applicants who are inappropriate for a given job opening. If someone accused Professor Matloff of discrimination because he gave F's to people who didn't pass his tests, even though they were old, or brilliant guitar players, or real good at video games, I'd defend him.
I've screened a whole lot of programmers' resumes, interviewed a lot of people, and hired a bunch. Nearly half my hires were foreign born and educated; none had an H-1B. Many of my hires had college degrees, and I didn't hold that against them, but high grades in school, or prestige of the institution, didn't convince me to hire anyone. I don't happen to have hired any UC Davis graduates, but two of the best hires I ever made came from CSU Chico; they came to work on day one, sat right down, and went to work learning our proprietary language, operating system, and tools, with no fuss.
The companies I've worked at used highly paid experts to screen out inappropriate resumes, so I didn't see the real junk. I still examined ten to twenty resumes for every one that I chose for telephone screening. About half of these were worth interviewing. About half of the people interviewed got an offer. This is a lot of work to go to for each hire, but it's a lot less costly than hiring somebody that doesn't work out.
One time I was asked to "work the booth" at a Silicon Valley job fair. That was when I saw the real losers, unfiltered. I stood behind a table and talked briefly to each candidate in a long line. There were all kinds of nice people. They deserved to have good jobs. But most were light years from being able to work in a software company. One example: a high school shop teacher. Really pleasant person. Anybody who can do that job is organized, mature, and able to tolerate BS. He'd taken a course in BASIC at a community college and wanted to become a programmer. Cool, good idea. But I could meet my deadlines with less cost and risk by hiring somebody else. I told him he needed more courses and more experience.
On the other hand, I am quite sour on hiring H-1B workers. The lengthy and expensive process of applying for one, and the rule that you can't pay somebody until he has a visa, means that once you decide to hire one of these workers, you have to wait six months. Forget it; in the high tech environment, that's half the life of a company. The H-1B workers can't go to another company without starting over with a new application, and if their current employer finds out they're looking, and terminates them, they have to leave the USA. This happened to a company I worked for, and an important position went unfilled for six months, and the worker ended up back at the country of origin.
I have never seen any practice of paying workers less based on their visa status. But companies, when hiring, make the lowest offer they can that will get the worker, and it's quite possible that people who need an H-1B will accept lower offers.
The assertion that H-1B workers' resumes lie about their credentials, while American programmers' resumes do not, doesn't match my observations. Lots of resumes are inflated, foreign and domestic. When an interviewer discovers that someone claims to know more than he actually does, in an area relevant to the job, that's an instant turnoff. The few cases of blatant resume fraud I've encountered were all Americans.
Professor Matloff writes, "any competent veteran programmer can become productive in a new programming language in a couple of weeks on the job." I wish it were that easy, but I don't think this is true, especially for his example of a C programmer beginning to use Java. Writing "C-in-Java" programs that aren't object oriented and use Java poorly isn't really "productive." Object orientation isn't something you pick up on the job in a couple of weeks.
The high-tech companies I know about expect new hires to learn on the job. They want to choose people who'll succeed at this, and lots of people can't. There is a 10 to 1 range in programming ability, that's an old result, and there's another range of 10 to 1 in "performance attributes" like being able to work in teams, make and keep commitments, communicate clearly and openly, and learn new skills.
I've interviewed at companies where I was a perfect fit for the job, and they said so, except that I was already making more than their CEO. "Too bad for you," I said. (Hmm, come to think of it, all those companies failed.) So I agree with Prof. Matloff that companies can be short-sighted in their understanding of their best interest. I've also met experienced programmers who feel that they deserve a high-paying job with short hours and low pressure, and who think they are being discriminated against when others will work harder for less money.
Skilled is the keyword. (Score:2)
I am currently looking at coming to the US on a H1-B. I recently had a phone interview. Although I consider my skills modest, the commment that was made is that I would be one of the more senior people that they had interviewed. This surprised me no-end.
As indicated by other posters the market is flooded by people who have precious little idea outside a narrow range of subjects. It is become a market full of par people, and then a smaller percentage of multi-skilled IT professionals.
I have seen the same situation in Australia. We are looking at hiring people, and although there tends to be a few responses to the job ads, 95% of them would add value in a very narrow situations. So we are left in a situation where we are understaffed, but don't want to take on someone who can not handle themselves in the range of situations that we are exposed to.
I have heard it said by quite a few people, that unless you have had 2 or more very different jobs in IT in the last few years, you are placed in a basket of 'narrow specialist'. In most organisations, particularly with the rapid leap-frogging of technology, it is almost imperitive that it's employees can roll with the changes.
The crux of the situation isn't so much that there a shortage of trained IT people - there are plenty, it is that there is a severe shortage of Skilled people.
If successful, I know that I will not be paid a lower than average wage, I also know that I will not be working in an environment where I will be a second class worker.
Multi-skill and really understand what is going on, and there will be less of a shortage. I know that the company I am at at the moment would be in a lot better position if there where more people who where truly skilled.
sheltered? (Score:2)
another problem with the age discrimination issue is that it's just really hard to prove. There's some prejudices that come with age that need to be gotten over like that young people are inexperienced, or older people don't work weekends or over time, and that the group right in the middle 25-35 are ideal because they haven't established a life yet and they're willing to work harder. I think the truth of the matter is that the middle section probably appears to be doing more but gets the same amount of work done as any of the other groups.
Just me thoughts.
Election Year Funding (Score:2)
The amount of funding spread around to legislators, from rich, powerful IT firms, in return for passage of H1B workers is astounding. We can fully expect to see the numbers increase everytime the politicians are seeking to enlarge their war chests.
This is targeted immigration, implemented primarily to control the wage and status of US IT professionals. There is more than enough evidence to show that US high tech companies have padded their employment requirements and used those falsified statistics to support H1B. The H1B legislation is based on a huge lie.
Remember when H1B first came onto the scene? All the retraining, worker protections, studies on job loss that were guaranteed to happen? Well, most of that has been rolled back now, courtesy of the dishonorable David Dreier (R-CA) [fairus.org] -- a recipient of HUGE donations from tech firms.
There were also dozens of ads for programmers in every major paper, as well as regular calls from headhunters. Well, all that's gone now, but the H1B just keeps getting increased. High Tech America is as hooked on H1B as your average smack addict, and congess just keeps feeding the monkey -- for a price.
One can't read about this and not be alarmed. My personal opinion is there should be limits on the number of people allowed in; once in, they become full citizens; and you can't discriminate against who gets in.
This way, we get some good programmers, auto mechanics, teachers, lawyers, politicians, airline pilots, doctors, lawyers -- a spread of people. And *they* don't have to worry about getting sent home.
Targeted immigration should be outlawed immediately -- there is more than enough evidence that is was based on falsified statistics, and is probably the most horrifying and clearly irrefutable example of just how corrupt the US Government is.
I think, when the truth really comes out in all this, there may be a class action lawsuit against the US on the behalf of American IT workers. Maybe even a huge settlement? Without H1B, I think I'd have made an extra 20-30 K for the last 4 years.
Let's see, $30K x 4 years x about 5 million programmers...that's about a $600 billion settlement or so. Congress, the clock is ticking. Stop passing laws based on lies while you can still get out cheap
Re:Stating The Obvious (Score:4)
What really annoys me are the constant comments from your average L^Huser that "you are so lucky" to be a geek in this day and age. Bullshit, you're better off as a lawyer, doctor or chartered accountant. Even a pinhead with a BA and experience in personnel is better off once past 35.
Fsck 'em.
It is hard to find qualified people. (Score:2)
Fishhead Inc. (Score:3)
I personally feel that the US should open its doors to the infow of talent from whereever it may come. It is the thing that has kept the US vital and inventive. But, there has to be a way to protect folks that are imported like this.
you are all sheep (Score:2)
There was a time when new employees underwent month(s) of training for their new jobs. Today, employers expected you to know everything necessary to jump in and begin work immediately, or perhaps with a one week orientation.
By flooding the market with IT workers and floating the idea that the IT market has a huge shortage, the industry assures itself a steady crop of new, young employees (with such variety of skills that training isn't needed).
IT workers are sheep. If your dreams of getting rich quick from an IPO have faded, perhaps its time to work for an established, profitable company that will still be here in 5, 10, or 15 years.
You've been duped by the most easily duped people in the world - journalists.
He's certainly on target about age discrimination (Score:5)
Personally, I've noticed a trend over the last few years; as I've applied for jobs for which I'm truly well-qualified (i.e. many years of relevant and up-to-date experience in exactly the pertinent areas) I've found that not only do I not get the job, my cover letter/resume submission isn't even ack'd.
I find this puzzling, given how often this submission is done electronically, making the process of ack'ing it trivial. I would have expected that as more and more of this interaction takes place online, that we'd see increased responsiveness from employers, not less. And in the case of a handful of positions that I applied for this year, I'm outright baffled: they listed X buzzwords, I have 90% of them in theory and practice and a bunch of related stuff that they didn't bother to list. (I make a continuous effort to keep my skills current, and while, for example, I haven't tackled PHP yet, I do speak perl and Java, run Linux and BSD, speak fluent sendmail and DNS and Apache, etc.)
So why didn't I even get called for an interview?
Could it be because I'm in my 40's, because I expect to be well-paid for what I bring to the table, and don't expect to work 80 hours/week because my employers are too cheap to hire two people to do two peoples' work?
I don't know. The lack of interaction with potential employers means that I'm speculating and trying to correlate anecdotal evidence with experience. But I find the trend disturbing, not only because of how it impacts me, but because of what it means for those who are entering the workforce twenty years behind me.
I'm concerned that employers who avoid people like me -- because we're (relatively) expensive and won't work ourselves to death -- will try to take advantage of younger workers, and that they will succeed. Again, the evidence is mostly anecdotal, but I'll bet that at least half the people reading this worked more than 60 hours this week and were not fairly compensated for it. I'll further bet that a quarter worked more than 80 while being paid a salary commensurate with 40.
Of course, there's no way for me to know if I'm right about that or not; maybe I'm way off base here. (shrug) But my advice is not to buy into the PHB-propagated myth that you are somehow obligated to do this for the company you work for. You're not. And if you do, you may find that twenty years down the road, you'll discover that all the sacrifices you made, all the things you gave up, were never appreciated or paid for -- but that the people above you, the ones who have profited handsomely from everything you gave up, have taken their money and gone somewhere else to repeat the cycle.
Re:no labor shortage, for certain values of 'labor (Score:2)
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one of the problems (Score:2)
To answer the question posted, yes, it's mostly employers wanting to get out of paying American workers what they're worth. Personally I think the best thing for IT workers to do is unionize, along the lines of other professional workers; something like the American Medical Association or American Bar Association. Believe me, if the AMA sees legislation pending that would adversely affect their members, they move fast and they move hard. The Association of Information Technology Professionals [aitp.org] fulfills this role to an extent; they do apparently lobby congress. I've looked through their 1999 report, and it doesn't say anything about a position regarding increasing H1B workers. They did, however, speak against UCITA, so they can't be all bad. Someone more knowledgeable about this organization would have to tell you more, but I think a lot of IT people are going to have to overcome to a certain degree their independent streak if they want to ensure that they're treated fairly in the workplace.
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Re:Not Really ... (Score:5)
Exactly. I recently had a phone conversation with an HR drone. She was trying to talk me into one of their positions. I told her how much money I wanted. It was about $20k more than they were listing the position. She told me that she thought I was being unrealistic. I told her "that's why that position is still open" and hung up.
Another job I know of was listed for at least 6 months, 3 of those after the "application deadline". I know of two well-qualified people that applied for it. So why didn't it get filled? The company wouldn't make a decision and eventually decided not to fill the position due to a money crunch.
In my opinion, that's the labor shortage in a nutshell. Every open position I see has a story behind why it's still open. It isn't because there aren't people out there looking for work. It's because the job is underpaid, they aren't really hiring, nobody can make a decision about hiring, etc. I've seen plenty of jobs listed where it's obvious that the someone priced the position using 1997's salary chart.
severe shortage in Boston (Score:2)
There seems to be a severe shortage of decent computer people in Boston. I'm in school, but friends in startups are constantly asking if I know any good people that they could hire, since their hiring quotas are going unfilled. One friend talked about getting a half-dozen calls on the day he posted his resume. My academic program has been pillaged by startups; our photo board has a whole section devoted to students prematurely eaten by companies-- as well as several professors.
H1-B and shortages (Score:2)
Until you bring me proof, its a conspiracy (Score:3)
My conjecture is simple - older tech workers are not nearly as numerous or willing to take staff coding positions as any of you claim. Until I hear at least one useful statistic, or at least one convincing realistic anecodte, I treating this issue of vast and systemic age discrmimination as complete hooey.
My counter anecdote is that I work for an internet company that you would think is on the cutting edge of just about anything, and we certainly have numerous programmers old enough to be my ...very old uncle.
Older workers cannot work 70-100 hours per week. (Score:4)
Then fuck you. You get fired, you slacking lazy graying old bastard.
Then when this fired worker applies for his next job it's, (interviewer to himself) "What? You're married with two kids?" (interviewer to you) "I'm sorry but you're { not qualified | too expensive | not what we're looking for }". It is discrimination pure and simple.
H1B visas are not about filling in skills US workers lack.
Nor do employers want more H1B visas so they can pay workers less.
H1Bs are a source of people with no family ties or other responsibilities whatsoever. H1B workers, along with most fresh college grads, are the only work group that can work the really really long hours, and devote their entire waking hours to "the company".
Now that the first wave of IT workers is getting married and having kids, employers are saying there is a "shortage of IT workers". Bullshit. There is only a shortage of workers who will let themselves be treated like crap. And yes, even if well paid, 70-100 hour work weeks == crap treatment and abuse of a salaried worker. Just like you can't justify exposing workers to workplace hazards by claiming, "they're paid well and accepted the job", so too can you not justify abusive work hours by claiming "they're paid well and accepted the job". In the USA, workers have rights, wheather you agree or not. Just get over it and accept it, or, move your business China. But if you want to operate in the US, then you play by US rules. It's just that simple.
Expect to see IT worker unions form if employers don't clean up their act. Do you hate unions? Hate the corruption? Hate the politics? Well, you have your chance to fix things now. Get off your ass and set things straights before the unions form. And don't bitch and whine about how unions are holding your company by the balls later because it'll only be your fault for fucking people over now.
Re:He's certainly on target about age discriminati (Score:3)
Of course, I could be wrong, some people keep their youthful arrogance as they grow older; they are the ones who never learn anything worth knowing.
Age gives you the opportunity to gain some wisdom. Whether you choose to take advantage of that opportunity is up to you.
Ok, lets take a little quiz to put things into perspective for you: When you were born I was oh say 27. I'm a pretty bright guy, and I've never stopped learning, and doing it at an ever increasing rate; I've learned how to learn more efficiently over the years. I think that even you will admit that when you were born I knew more than you did. So the question is: "Exactly when do you think that your level of knowledge passed mine, when you were 12, 18, 22, last week maybe?" Does it occur to you that there is no way you could know as much as I do, simply because you haven't been around long enough to pass me up yet? Congratulations, that would be the beginning of wisdom on your part.
Irony (Score:3)
That had to have been funny. ex:
"hey timmy (html grunt worker), yea you in the cubicle, convert this page to html and index it" - Dr. Norman Matloff
"What's it on?" -Timmy (html grunt worker)
"How you're going to be out of a job in 2 years" -Dr. Norman Matloff