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Education

Higher Learning, Online? 43

Posted by michael from the clicking-toward-a-diploma dept.
provell writes "An ad for the U of Phoenix online education program caught my eye the other day. I know the concept of online education isn't a new one but it seems to be growing more prevalent with each passing year. As an IT consultant at the age of 18, I didn't give myself much chance for college and I don't get much time in town to take part time courses. With the burst of the E-Bubble, I'm starting to notice an increase in hiring standards. Is a BS a necessary bargaining chip for the IT industry and are online undergrad programs widely accepted/adequate? Any thoughts/experiences would be much appreciated."
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Higher Learning, Online? More

Higher Learning, Online?

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  • Here's what Google [google.com] churned up.

    There's lots of options, and the best way to check accreditation is to check the sites, or even phone them, if numbers are listed.

  • I know people will disagree, but... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by afay ( 301708 ) on Friday March 22, 2002 @05:12PM (#3209722)
    From my experience, the most important thing you can have is a personal reference at the company you are trying to get a job with. Let me explain.

    I don't have a degree and have had a very difficult time getting a job. My friends with degrees have had just as difficult time finding a job. The job market is tight right now and basically no matter what's on your resume it's going to be hard to find a job.

    However, if you know someone in the company at the very least you will get an interview (try sending resumes to various companies and see how many get back to you) which is a big step and more than likely you will get a good recommendation from someone the hiring person knows. I can't stress the personal reference bit enough. All the jobs I've gotten comes from knowing someone in the company (except the bookstore job but that was not computer-related and only $7.25 an hour).

    So, my suggestion: contact everyone you've previously worked with and find out where they're working. Ask them if the company is hiring and even if they aren't contact them again in a few months. Things change quite quickly in the job market.

    Finally, good luck and I suggest at some point you get a degree anyway. Pay scales are often based on degrees. I plan to get mine starting next year.

  • Company should pay... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by FortKnox ( 169099 )
    Jump in and get yourself a small degree (like InfoSystems in the Business College). Most business courses (if not all) are probably available at night school or saturdays/weekends. Not only this, but most companies pay for your school if you do well.
    After about 5-10 years on the job, school no longer matters (if you don't have a degree), only experience matters.

    As a side note, I'm a firm believer in college educations. I'd be very hard pressed to hire someone without a degree. And in an economical drought of the IT industries, a CS degree won't get you far if you are up against good CompEng canidates (with similar experience, of course).
    If you are geared more towards management, go ahead and try to grab an MBA while you are used to going to school, and you should be set and well paid for the next 5-10 years (MBA's usually give you a jump on pay your first 5-10 years).
    • And in an economical drought of the IT industries, a CS degree won't get you far if you are up against good CompEng canidates (with similar experience, of course).

      That depends on the school. At Purdue, the CompEng people concentrate a lot on hardware, and don't really get into the software aspects, and hence have little experience and knowledge of things like Database systems, networking (higher level, not packet level), and the like. For someplace like Intel, then CompEngs would have the advantage, but for a purely software house, CS is on a slightly better footing. If nothing else, then they are pretty much equal, and it then depends on the soft skills (writing, ability to speak, etc.)

  • There's a lot of promise in these online degree programs -- they may bring knowledge and opportunity to people who, due to a variety of circumstances, wouldn't otherwise have them. Ideally, they could be a great democratizing force in education.

    That said, an online education is absolutely no substitute. In the very best online program, you'll still get to work with top-notch instructors in a well-designed curriculum.

    However, the single most important thing -- by far -- about undergraduate education is your peers. Textbooks are OK, classes are good, professors are wonderful -- but nothing matters so much as directly sharing that environment with other students. Meeting other students, challenging each other, working side by side and together on problems, everybody chipping in for a pizza at 2 AM ... this is where the learning really happens, and this is the real value of a degree.

    A degree isn't really about knowledge; it's about cultivating an adaptable mind, and becoming a good problem solver and good communicator who can work with others. That's one of the reasons why there's often little correlation between peoples' majors and their ultimate professional fields. That's why so the majority of job descriptions don't say "college degree in X", but simply say "college degree".

    Yes, online communities exist (e.g. this), and yes, one can form a peer group there. But for education, there is no substitute for face-to-face immersion.

    (My epsilon cents.)

  • Learning in General (Score:2, Insightful)

    by darthBear ( 516970 )
    I've always been of the opinion that learning is a contact sport. Meaning that accredited or not you are not going to get as much out of an online course as a real university program.
    <br>
    That being said there are legit practical reasons to go online but I think the point still stands that often it is not just the material but the other people in the class. A traditional classroom broadens the scope of the education, allows for more interaction and therefore responsiveness, and is in general more usefull. I realize you are asking specifically about technology degrees but again I think the point is still relevant
    <br>
    The key here is that a traditional classroom has advantages that an online setting cannot begin to eumulate.

    • The key here is that a traditional classroom has advantages that an online setting cannot begin to eumulate.

      And the online setting has advantages that the traditional classroom can't emulate. I have two graduate degrees: one from a large traditional school, the other from an accredited online school. I can honestly say that I learned just as much from the online program as the traditional one. The online degree was both more convenient and more efficient. In the online program I spent much less time sitting around daydreaming while a professor droned on at the front of the room.

    • I teach at UOPhx, Online (OL) and Onground (OG). The OL program has as much or more interaction as the OG. It runs through newsgroups, so anyone in any timezone can participate. Students must participate on 5/7 days, and are graded on the substantiveness of that participation. As all must participate, and say something meaningful that moves the class along and expands its learning, I find better overall class participation than in OG classes. Reserved students speak up, those who are thoughtful but want time to reflect on their comments before posting them have it, those who simply say "I agree" but add nothing new don't earn points, etc. A large part of the grade (usually 30-40%)is based on one's Learning Team (3-4 students) assignments. There is as much team collaboration OL as OG. OL teams tend to form by timezone (just as OG teams do by who lives/works nearby), so they can all be online at the same time, or use instant messaging or phone calls. The out-of-newsgroup communication is best reserved for logistics of planning out a project, as all work product must go into the newsgroup to get participation points. It's amazing to see how students form new learning teams (which they have to do for each class, which lasts 5 weeks undergrad, 6 weeks graduate--intense format). This is an accelerated program, with no time to waste, so students get right to it. One other thing--students must be 23 and employed, average is 34, so everyone has lots of job experience to bring to the table. In fact, that's one of the goals of most courses: to relate the learning to practical experience. Each online program has its own format. Many are simply self-paced, with no interaction except for submitting papers to the instructor. ###
      • Sorry for the run-on text. I'm not a technical person, just happened to this site through a link and wanted to respond re online learning at UOPhx.

        Mistakenly hit submit, not preview, or I would have figured out the selection box and put the response in plain text.

        Thanks for your understanding. I'll post the first message again, properly, as I'd like to hear your responses.
      • I teach at UOPhx, Online (OL) and Onground (OG). The OL program has as much or more interaction as the OG. It runs through newsgroups, so anyone in any timezone can participate.

        Students must participate on 5/7 days, and are graded on the substantiveness of that participation. As all must participate, and say something meaningful that moves the class along and expands its learning, I find better overall class participation than in OG classes. Reserved students speak up, those who are thoughtful but want time to reflect on their comments before posting them have it, those who simply say "I agree" but add nothing new don't earn points, etc.

        A large part of the grade (usually 30-40%)is based on one's Learning Team (3-4 students) assignments. There is as much team collaboration OL as OG. OL teams tend to form by timezone (just as OG teams do by who lives/works nearby), so they can all be online at the same time, or use instant messaging or phone calls. The out-of-newsgroup communication is best reserved for logistics of planning out a project, as all work product must go into the newsgroup to get participation points.

        It's amazing to see how students form new learning teams (which they have to do for each class, which lasts 5 weeks undergrad, 6 weeks graduate--intense format). This is an accelerated program, with no time to waste, so students get right to it.

        One other thing--students must be 23 and employed, average is 34, so everyone has lots of job experience to bring to the table. In fact, that's one of the goals of most courses: to relate the learning to practical experience. Each online program has its own format. Many are simply self-paced, with no interaction except for submitting papers to the instructor.

        (No, I don't teach in the technology programs.)###
  • I'm currently going through the UofP program. I have a 2 year degree (from a long long time ago) and recognize that while this isn't MIT it is a degree. My take on it is that it may help keep my resume from being thrown out when the job requires a BS of some sort. I figure that there are front end people (you might even call them human resources) that look at a resume for buzzwords and key stuff (one of them being a degree) and chuck the ones that don't have them.

    That said this isn't easier than going to class, they do pile on the work so beware that it's not something that you can do over lunch...

    • I think you hit the nail on the head. Many people, and that unfortunately includes people in Human Resources, see the online degree as something that gets banged out during lunch. Until people really do get out into the workplace with such a degree and prove themselves this is probably always going to be the case.
  • Is a BS a necessary bargaining chip for the IT industry

    Not necessary perhaps, but it certainly helps:

    Interviewer: It says here you invented the turing machine.
    You: Hire me, and you can patent it.

  • Yes and no (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Deanasc ( 201050 ) on Friday March 22, 2002 @05:36PM (#3209882) Homepage Journal
    I'm not speaking from experience here but it would seem to me that the online learning experience is a tough sell at a job interview.

    I go to a commuter college and don't feel like it's a real college experience. Sure I'll have a degree from a decent state school when I'm done but I don't have the dorm experience. Some might argue that I'm ahead of the game there but I feel like I missed out. I definately notice a difference in alumni spirit between my school and say a school like Umass Amhearst. Most of my peers I won't miss when I'm gone because they're more like coworkers. We never had the late night bonding/speakers-out-the-window kegger. We share no particular intimacy that comes from close quarters living. Again some may argue that I'm ahead of the game further still.

    I do have a more independant method of problem solving. I have more science and computer toys and reference books at my home because the library isn't a walk across the quad. But every step of the way has been something of a struggle having to figure things out myself b/c I can't ask someone down the hall.

    Now multiply what I've said by a factor of 10 as you won't know who your peers are in an online class. You won't even have the kind of social life a night school student gets. I don't mean social life as in party. I've learned a lot working through problems with my peers, some problems cannot be solved on your own.

    You may think that the social aspect isn't important. It's not if you're trying to get a technical degree in as little time as possible. In which case as an employer I'd probably lump you in with the Devry Tech grads. Not someone who's earned a BS Degree. If I was hiring I'd want someone who can work out problems with a group.

    Having earned my BS (I graduate in 8 weeks) I know that most kids who can't work out problems together don't graduate with honors, many don't graduate at all. In other words the BS Degree represents a certain measureable amount of technical skill as well as implies a grasp of certain intangeble skills.

    I had a career out of highschool before I decided I wanted a college degree. It was weird at first but it got better. I'm 32 now I don't look, feel or act it. I think it's from being around 20 year olds all day long. This has turned out to be a longer rant than I intended but I guess my bottom line is you're better off biting the bullet and living in poverty for 4 years and get the traditional degree.

    • In which case as an employer I'd probably lump you in with the DeVry Tech grads. Not someone who's earned a BS Degree. If I was hiring I'd want someone who can work out problems with a group.

      Sorry but as a DeVry Grad I have to comment on this no matter what it does to my Karma.

      DeVry is not a Tech school, hasn't been in years. As of this January it has even become a University (Yes the name is legally now DeVry University) I can assure you though the school is fast paced it is not easy, group work is a huge part of the schools classes. Probably even more so then some regular universities, to graduate you have to complete a project for an real company (guess what, it's group based). I can't remember the last large assignment I did that wasn't group based. We even have to take 2 classes that deal with nothing but how to work in a team. And yes my degree is a B.S. Degree not a certification like everyone seems to thing DeVry gives.

      And yes DeVry does have dorms, though they are contracted to another company so they usually are not on school grounds. And I have been to more school parties then I can count. Oh Friendship, since it was mentioned, my class set up a mailing list so we can contact each other, and it gets traffic every day. Many of us also work together, after we get jobs we recommend our classmates to the company for open positions. And we still hang out.

      Don't think I am saying DeVry is perfect, I was one of the first people to point out it's faults (Made me really popular with the deans) but if there is one thing it does do right it is teaching students to work as a team.

      Some of the teammates I've worked with ranked right up with the fellow members of my platoon in the Marines. And you can't convince me the Marines don't use teamwork.
      • I stand corrected. The only thing I know of DeVry is what I've seen in the commercials on the UHF channels. I did not know it qualified for University status. How is the English department? Do they have one at every location or do you have to spend a semester abroad to satisfy the Division II requirements?

        I don't care what you call it. DeVry is still a technical school. However you are correct in that it is better then nothing.

        You don't deserve to loose karma but man I'm trolling. There goes my 50.

        • No problem, one of my biggest problems since I graduated isn't a lack of education, but the perceived lack of education I get from HR departments.

          English department is good, and every campus has one. It tends to lean toward job skills so many of the classes involve business communications. There are a few classes like poetry or short story writing, but your not going to be a poet when you graduate. It focuses on the business aspect. The Board of Directors for DeVry consists of some CEOs from major corporations so the curriculum is geared towards what skills businesses want in candidates they hire.

          Truthfully I think DeVry is the perfect school for people who are in the work force and want to move up, you can get in, learn the skills, get the degree, and get out. I like to think it is a school that specializes in Technical Fields, not a Tech School.

          I don't blame you for thinking DeVry was a tech school, the commercials they have don't help to change the image. (That is one of my biggest complaints)

          DeVry has an over 90% placement rate so you got to think they are doing something right.
          • I'm on my second Martini so forgive me if I seem gushy. You seem to be a classy guy, educated, articulate. If DeVry focused more on their public image you wouldn't have to defend yourself. However, the commercials certainly don't help. I got 3 levels deep into the website and still it looked like just a basic technical certificate program gussied up in a University package.

            I didn't know there were Humanities requirements. And I have to admit that I've sleepwalked trough 6 required Division II courses that amounted to nothing more than busy work and time spent away from the lab. I don't begrudge the time as a handfull of A's does help make up for sucky Calculus grades.

            I guess what I'm saying is a BS implies that I not only learned my field but can also do the drudge work outside my major.

            Unfortunately I guess I represent most of the rest of the country when I percieve a DeVry student as someone who skipped the humanaties courses for a quick technical degree. I am wrong.

  • You don't have to have a degree, but.. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by agrounds ( 227704 ) on Friday March 22, 2002 @05:37PM (#3209891)
    Not having finished my degree yet has certainly held me back in more than one job. I'm a network admin with a strong *nix and NT background, but even with certification from Cisco, it is difficult to progress. One can always land a job based on what you know, and how well you present yourself in the interview, but my experience so far has shown repeatedly that the lack of degree will dampen your chances of rising beyond the daily grind. I work for a large utility now as the prime network admin for my department, but I will not be able to make the leap into management without a degree. My advice to anyone who jumped into the IT business too early (for whatever reason) is to make the time to get the degree from a respectable establishment. It'll cut into your personal time and, in my case, family time, but the ends will justify the means. No one really wants to retire a packet-jockey. Certainly not me. Thus I am making the economic and social sacrifices to get my degree. Even if it takes years, it's worth it.

  • Ludicrous tuition. Online learning should be cheap. University of Phoenix is silly expensive, especially for out-of-country types (Canadians like me).

    .

  • UMUC (Score:2, Interesting)

    by cyoung1035 ( 539131 )
    I'm studying Computer and Information Science (Unix, database theory, networking, C++) at the University of Maryland University College. All my classes are online, only proctored final exams; it's fully accredited through UM, and it offers credit for OJT "experiential learning." Cost: same as state U. I think I've learned more doing it online because instead of wasting time in lecture halls, I'm hacking away at my computer(s) doing some pretty heavy-duty programming, sysadmin, database design, etc. Hands-on learning beats boring profs any day, and I don't have to worry about wedging classes in between my full-time job and my 2+ hour commute. (I'm counting on my BS, 20 years of being an end-user, and a little help from a mentor to break into the field.)
    • I got a second bachelors from UMUC last year (I had a degree in a non-related field and wanted the piece of paper to back up my experience). None of my teachers had us do anything that I thought resembled "heavy duty" programming or anything else.

      It definately wasn't a computer science program ... the programming projects we were assigned were all very small, and none of the classes got to anything very advanced.

      But, on the other hand, it gave me the piece of paper that I was looking for ....

  • From a personal perspective I'd say experience counts more than qualifications as employers like to see that you've actually had experience of doing the job they'll be hiring you for. Mind you with hiring being outsourced so much these days to HR companies which aren't as savvy about experience or job descriptions being written by a committe where things like "6 years experience of Windows 2000" required then more qualifications than the next applicant helps you move up the shortlist for interview. Mind you - you still have to get past the interview.

  • No, you're fine (Score:4, Funny)

    by PhysicsGenius ( 565228 ) <`moc.oohay' `ta' `rekees_scisyhp'> on Friday March 22, 2002 @06:28PM (#3210167)
    "As an IT consultant at the age of 18... Is a BS a necessary bargaining chip..."

    No, I think the BS you already have will do nicely. "IT consultant" my ass.

  • Do yourself a favor (Score:4, Insightful)

    by kevin42 ( 161303 ) on Friday March 22, 2002 @06:36PM (#3210208)
    As someone who found a very good paying job in IT at the age of 16 (and graduated from high-school early) let me give you some advice.

    Forget about the IT consulting for now unless you can do it part time, and spend the next 4-6 years in college.

    I'm now 29, married with a 2 year old and working very hard to get a degree (ie. up all night doing homework). Not having the degree hasn't prevented me from getting a good paying job, but I know I could have done better with the degree. At this point in my career I don't think I can progress much more without it. I've sort of hit the "no degree ceiling".

    When I was your age I thought "who needs a degree when people are willing to pay me this much without it". Don't give in to that reasoning, it's short term thinking. I don't care how smart you are, a degree is a must. You might not miss it 5 years from now, but I know you will wish you had gotten it 10 or 15 years from now if you don't. If for no other reason, because 90% of those you will be competing with for salary and jobs will have it.

    I don't care if you have to get a loan and live poorly for the next few years, it will be worth it!
  • Here's the problem, often time the media or the news portrays a sort of lone genius that doesn't need to go to college and gets a great job.

    This may have been possible before the internet boom, due to a lack in college educated cs people, and the knowledge difference between those with a highschool education and those with a college wasn't that great. Such is not the case now.

    You'll be competing against those with bachelors and masters, and you won't have as much to offer the company. Even if you know worlds more than a particular college educated person, the piece of paper they hold is more valuable. Most managers are held accountable for the people they higher, and that diploma acts as insurance.

    Also, if you do get a job with the company, you'll not be able to rise above grunt coder or lower management. Those are skills taught in college, that can't be learned by just hacking code.
    • I'm going to toot my own horn, so beware!! I am 26 yrs old, have only a High School diploma, and have now worked in a reasonably large mailorder/ecommerce business for almost exactly a year. My position is not really defineable other than I basically take care of all of the technical aspects of our Internet presence, from hiring to purchasing, to architecting.

      That being said, I would never consider myself a 'lone genius', but I do think that a good work ethic, being able to accuratly and diplomatically voice your opinions, and not getting involved in office politics/cliques helped me get to a comfortable position without more than good solid book learning.

      Or maybe I'm just pulling your leg... :) (I'm not...(...or am I? ))
      • I worked my way out of the mailroom to the sales floor at a stockbrokerage. I had lots of success at what I did but I knew I could never jump ship to any other brokerage firm without some kind of college degree. In fact when I did go to college the only job I could find was bartending. You may be comfortable now but beware of bad times.

        Incidently, do they pay you what the position is worth or a couple thousand less?

  • UC Berkeley online (Score:2, Interesting)

    by willis ( 84779 )
    I took a class from UC Berkeley online, and it was a pretty unexciting experience (especially after having attended the school for 5 years). Organization is poorer, inter-class interaction is a joke (perhaps because there are only so many people at the same time/same place in an online class, where normal classes have everyone in lockstep).

    re: the need for a degree at all --
    I graduated with a degree in Chinese literature (minor in CS), and I had no problems getting offers from selective companies (for very technical positions). You're much more than your IT skills -- you might want to round yourself out (you'll have IT jobs on the side, or during summer) or learn about something new. The money/career will probably be there when you're done, if that's what you're looking for.
    Don't sell yourself short, and remember to keep your head about you -- it's not all about money.

  • "As an IT consultant at the age of 18..." I open myself up for ridicule the moment I say that.

  • My take on it (Score:2, Informative)

    by JSCarr ( 312656 )
    I'm currently doing a BSIT at UoP while working for a major government contractor. UoP is fully accredited. My employer recognizes them as a legitimate university and is happy to pay for the courses.

    While I'm not sure that the education is as rigorous as I'd like, the degree is legit and there's nothing to stop me from going to the U of Washington campus to take more math and such. While the credits are more expensive, individually at UoP ($400 per credit vs. $300 per credit at U of Washington), UoP recognized twice as many of my previous college credits, which means I'll complete my degree nearly two years earlier than if I'd gone the other route.

    Sad fact is that if you're working for a major corporation, particularly in the government sector, the degree's important. Not only is there a certain status attached to your level of education, but many companies have internal rules governing rate of pay and advancement level limits based on degree. Online education is becoming more and more acceptable and companies are beginning to realize that it is a real education, as opposed to a diploma mill. The bottom line for me is: It doesn't matter where that education comes from; what I get out of it is entirely up to me.

  • Don't go to UoP (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I went for a year. The non-computer classes like Astronomy, Business Law, and Statistics were fascinating and well done. Then I went to my first core class.

    It was absolutely pathetic.

    The teacher didn't know what she was teaching.

    The teacher handed out exams that had blatant errors (do you really want me to write out the results of a 100 Million Cartesian product?!?)

    The teacher believed the book when it recommended human-readable primary keys! (ie: US-AZ-24-90 Made in the US, in Arizona, and for Trucks (24)... that's what unique columns are for. It's a mess when the plant moves to Mexico... and you know it will).

    The teacher couldn't answer questions. (In Access, can you select the Count(*)? [Yes: It allows you to return counts including null fields, and is much faster])

    The book actually gave different answers for the same question, exemplified when we had an open book exam. Everyone took the answer from the chapter we were on... the teacher graded on the answer 5 chapters later.

    We were forced to use a data modeling program that no one had ever heard of, and were not allowed to use, oh, Visio.

    By the end of the class, fellow students twice my age were asking me the questions, and ignoring her answers.

    I wrote a letter describing the situation in much more political terms, CC: to everyone all the way up to President, and never received a response.

    All you do at UoP is purchase a degree. You almost can't fail. You get A's almost without trying. (of course you have to do the simplistic work)

    While I don't claim to know everything, I was a Sr. Developer/Analyst consulting at Best Western, and have since worked for a couple more top-100 companies.

    What I will be doing next is going to evening/distance learning courses offered by a reputable university. Not only will it have good name recognition, it's cheaper, and more taxing on the mind (which is why you get education: otherwise, buy your degree from UoP and prove it in your interview).

    Posting anonymously so they can't sue Slashdot for who I am... Even those these are just my opinions.

  • University generally is of benefit. A number of the people that I work with didn't go to university and it shows. Occasionally there is an individual whos knowledge and general interests take them down similiar paths to the structured learning that is practiced in most tertary institutions however they are very rare. Given a choice of employing people would generally employ someone with a degree. Some university have a practical focus and others tend more towards theory. Much to my surprise I have found that the theoretical knowledge has lasted really well and the practical stuff was a complete waste of time. (my opinion was different when I was first trying to get a job)

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