Alternative-Fuel Vehicle Recommendations? 1080
Ellen Spertus asks: "My husband and I lease a pure electric GM EV-1, which we love, and need to replace our second car, a conventional Honda Accord, which recently died. We'd get a second EV-1, but GM has stopped making them. I haven't been able to find any available all-eletric car with the range (>=50 miles roundtrip) and speed (>=65 mph) that I need. Does the Slashdot community have any experience, wisdom, or advice on choosing an alternative fuel car?"
"I'm currently considering:
- Toyota Prius, a hybrid sedan
- Honda Insight, a hybrid two-seater
- Honda Civic GX, a compressed natural gas (CNG) powered sedan
BIODIESEL (Score:5, Insightful)
Just don't try to start that french fry grease up on a cold morning.
Re:BIODIESEL (Score:3, Interesting)
To learn a little bit more about Biodiesel [biodiesel.org] try HempCar.org [hempcar.org], the hemp car (as the title may suggest) is a car developed to run on hemp as a Biodiesel [biodiesel.org]. They are currently driving it across Canada. Sure, not a commercial solution and probably not legal in the US. but it gives you an example of one Biodiesel [biodiesel.org] solution.
Re:BIODIESEL (Score:3, Informative)
Diesel vehicles will work with biodiesel "out of the box". In fact, biodiesel is the original fuel that diesel engines were designed to use, oil-based fuels came after the engine and refining techniques were used to make it simulate the naturally occuring oils.
Also, biodiesel is less harsh than oil-based diesel, helping the car last longer.
As to the smell- while biodiesel does have an odor, so does petrol.
- Serge Wroclawski
Just get a VW TDI (Golf, Jetta or Beetle) (Score:5, Interesting)
They do offer a 150hp TDI engine in europe which still gets really good gas mileage, but won't run on current US grade diesel (which is real poor). There is even a TDI GTI! VW/Audi sells six different diesels in Europe (1.2l, 1.9l - 90hp, 1.9l - 110hp, 1.9l -115hp, 2.5l - 150hp, V8 3.3l - 225hp[available soon]) compared to only the 1.9l - 90hp available in North America. When mentioning these horse power figures though, we must also think where this power is available. On the 1.9l 90hp it peak torque is available at just 1900RPMs with 155 ft/lbs torque up to the V8 3.3l which generates 355 ft/lbs torque between 1800 and 3000RPMs. I guess we can only dream of these really high output models.
Diesel is good, unfortuneatly it got a bad name in the US due to the amount of black smoke earlier cars and big trucks would put out (about 2% of US cars are diesel compared to over 25% in Europe. A properly tuned diesel shouldnt spew black smole and has gobs of torque which is great for driving around town(you won't win a drag race).
VW is really the only auto manufacturer who still offers diesel cars, and their prices start around 15k. Plus you get a car which is much nicer than a civic both on the in and outside.
I expect more manufacturer's to bring diesels over to the US once the fuel standards increase.
On a side note, is there any technical problem which has stop diesel electric hybrids in cars (they have diesel electric trains). Seems to me you would get a more fuel efficent car than a gas electric.
Re:Just get a VW TDI (Golf, Jetta or Beetle) (Score:3, Informative)
I got stuck driving a Toyota Prius for a couple of days while my car was in the shop. No acceleration, almost dangerously top-heavy with a short & narrow wheelbase & width, the car was absolutely no fun to drive. The high-efficiency diesels are the most practical way to go.
YMMV.
Re:Just get a VW TDI (Golf, Jetta or Beetle) (Score:3, Informative)
The diesel engine in a train does one thing: it turns an alternator to produce electricity. This electricity is then used to run the electric motors to turn the wheels.
The hybrid cars usually still have the engine hooked up to the wheels using a driveshaft, and the electric motor just supplements the engine (or vise-versa).
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:BIODIESEL (Score:2, Funny)
Re:fryer oil (Score:4, Interesting)
Apparently, since many of the restaurants they got their fat from had to pay to have their fry grease removed, they were more than happy to give it away for free. The article sez they drove clear across the U.S.
Re:BIODIESEL (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Some Quick Math (Score:3, Insightful)
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hsfaq.htm
Specifically they show motor fuel usage about halfway down the page:
In 2000, gallons of fuel consumed were:
128,883,609 (Gasoline - highway use)
33,376,587 (Special fuel - highway use)
162,260,196 (Total fuel - highway use)
2,971,636 (Non-highway use)
Actually I just realized I added those up incorrectly and total use (according to them) is actually lower by these numbers. It should be Total fuel plus non-highway use. But I agree with you that this number doesn't make sense, so I'm guessing there's an order of magnitude that they aren't making clear. So hunting elsewhere:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question417.htm
Okay, so from there we get 360 million gallons of gas every day. Sounds like a more realistic number. So multiply that and we get roughly 130 billion gallons of gas every day....
So, nevermind then, if we took every single piece of arable land we wouldn't come close to the amount needed. So go with hydrogen, there's plenty of that around
Re:Biodiesel and California air (Score:3, Interesting)
Modern Diesel cars do have catalytic converters, and other emission controls which enable them to have better emissions than gasoline fueled cars. If fueled with biodiesel, they have even better emissions.
Takara (Score:5, Funny)
At about 10,000 US each it's a bargain.
http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/photojournal/index.ht
Re:Takara (Score:4, Funny)
Dork Mobile.
Re:Takara (Score:2)
I don't think it even qualifies with what the poster specified. That car only has a range of 80km, which isn't even 50 miles. I bet it doesn't do 65mph either (even if it did it looks like it'd be terrifying to do 65 in a kiddy car).
Re:Takara (Score:5, Funny)
~Philly
Re:Takara (Score:3, Funny)
The Ringling Brothers called, they want their car [mainichi.co.jp] back.
Big fan of CNG (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Big fan of CNG (Score:2)
Being that it's the best for the planet (your words) that is you best choice.
However, I maybe the only one who thinks the Insight is 'cool'. I checked out the Apple VR images and I'm even more impressed.
Tough choice, but go for the most anti-oil... my 2% of a euro.
Also popular in New Zealand (Score:3, Informative)
Once you have a car converted in this fashion (cost used to be about NZ$1500, I think, so roughly US$850), you can drive it using either fuel source. CNG can be a bit harder to start in cold weather, and cars with CNG tanks didn't get the same range on a full tank of CNG as on a full tank of petrol. (This will obviously depend on the size of the tank -- the nature of the conversion I've described places some limitations on the size of the tank you can use.) The recommendation for such vehicles is to try to run one tank of petrol for every three or four tanks of CNG, mainly so the tubing for the petrol doesn't clog up resulting in your being unable to run on petrol if you have an emergency (like running out of CNG).
Petrol stations will often have a CNG tank beside the petrol pumps (much like a lot of service stations in the US have diesel pumps). Significantly fewer have LPG tanks, due to its lack of popularity. Filling a CNG tank is pretty simple -- you unscrew a cap on a valve, put on the CNG hose (rather like using a bicycle pump), and then let it go. I think from memory it automatically cuts off when the tank is full.
I'm too lazy to look up any information on how clean CNG really is, but it certainly smells better than petrol fumes! I also don't know what the distribution of natural gas fields are like on a global scale -- anyone else have such details? Would a nice side consequence of greater use of CNG be to decrease dependence on oil fields which are mostly located in politically unstable areas of the world?
Re:Big fan of CNG (Score:3, Insightful)
P.S. If you have a hard time believing any of this stop for a moment and think about UPS which maintains one of the biggest, if not the largest, fleets of CNG vehicles. It had to make sense to some of their bean-counters.
retro electric car (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:retro electric car (Score:2)
Have you considered?... (Score:5, Informative)
Jetta TDI has better mileage (Score:5, Insightful)
http://www.vw.com/engine/index.htm?locnav=jetta
And motorcycles? (Score:3, Interesting)
My Suzuki motorcyle would get over 50MPG on the highway (as long as I kept it under 85mph). Even the Honda Goldwings with the 1.6L engines were rated at 50MPG on the highway. Many mopeds and scooters get even higher mileage, some in the 100MPG range. Of these, some don't qualify to be ridden on an interstate, but most are vehicles that require plates and license to operate.
eCycle [ecycle.com] (oops, is that a deep link?) is working on a hybrid motorcycle that gets 180MPG (using diesel by the way). Pretty cool machine, I'd love to try one out, but with a top speed of 80, it would barely keep up with traffic on NY/NJ highways...
Re:Jetta TDI has better mileage (Score:3, Informative)
Way more expensive, and there are no production models as of yet...I.E.: No pudding to find the proof in.
erm, both cars are in production. in fact i could have bought a '99.5 Jetta TDI a while back but it just didn't have enough balls.. but it's still a sweet car.
and I read a review in the local paper that compared the two cars, and they found that they got better mileage in the Jetta.. so anypoop.
Re:Have you considered?... (Score:2)
The new Civic has the second generation electric assist engine as an option... The insight was first generation.
It's a great little car (Score:3, Interesting)
It had plenty of amenities too (CD player, AC, power locks and windows), rode quietly, was comfortable enough for a long trip, and didn't feel like it would blow away in a strong breeze. If I hadn't already purchased a new car 2 years ago, I would seriously consider one of these.
Of course, my opinion doesn't substitute for research, but on an aesthetic level I was happy as a passenger, and on a techie level I was all tingly at the thought of the reciprocating brake system recharging the batteries as we glided (glode?) to a halt.
GMFTatsujin
The technology's a little old... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:The technology's a little old... (Score:2, Funny)
Convert a car (Score:2, Interesting)
Just note that you'll probably lose a lot of trunk space unless you want to risk running out of Natural Gas between trips.
Ethanol (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Ethanol (Score:2)
As a Texan (not, sadly, an oil baron) and an ADM stockholder, I'd appreciate y'all taking his advice. More ethanol is better for all of us, or at least for me as the ADM stock price rises.
Re:Ethanol (Score:2)
As for the ethical bit -- didn't know Canada was ruled by a dictator, but I do know they're where the US gets the majority of its foreign oil from.
Re:Ethanol (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Ethanol (Score:5, Insightful)
The bad things with Ethanol are:
1) Its a false economy. Subsidized by lots of taxpayer dollars (direct, and indirect via forcing it into mixtures with gas). Its really just a crutch for farmers who can't quit the corn habit and ADM, which can't quit the free-government-money habit.
2) It mostly (exclusively?) uses corn as its source, and I'm not convinced that corn is the best crop to provide a fuel source. What about hemp or some other crop that might require less insecticide, fertilizer, etc etc.
3) It's kind of fuel-intensive to make. Planting, harvesting, fertilizing, insecticiding, AND DISTILLING all take machines that use fuel. If you get 20 gallons per acre (totally made-up) and you use 20 gallons per acre (again, totally made up) to make it, how "fuel efficient" is it?
4) There have been complaints about ethanol wreaking havoc with engines. I'm pretty sure I've seen warnings in owners manuals not to use too high of an ethanol concentration.
I'm sure there's a plant-to-fuel combination thats a winner -- low mechnical input to growth and harvesting, low energy input to distillation. Unfortunately I don't think ethanol is it -- its a way to get more money to corn farms in the midwest with some marginal pollution and oil dependency benefits.
Re:Ethanol (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Ethanol (Score:5, Informative)
washingtonpost.com
Ethanol's Ambitions
Tuesday, April 16, 2002; Page A18
THE ETHANOL lobby is normally content to fleece taxpayers in two ways.
First, it promotes public payments to those who grow the corn from which
ethanol is made: Right now the House and Senate are cooking up a terrible
farm bill that would lock in 10 more years of subsidies. Second, the lobby
has used the tax system to penalize gasoline that is not one-tenth made up
of ethanol: Motorists who fill their cars with ethanol-free gas pay around 5
cents extra per gallon. Some might reckon two federal favors enough, but the
ethanol folks think bigger than that. A provision recently inserted into the
Senate energy bill by Sen. Tom Daschle, the majority leader, and Sen. Jeff
Bingaman, the energy committee chairman, would mandate a big jump in ethanol
use and give ethanol producers protection against environmental liability.
This outrage is disguised in reasonable garb: It is part of an effort to
promote renewable sources of energy. But ethanol, though made from corn, can
only loosely be thought of as renewable, since making it consumes nearly as
much non-renewable oil as the ethanol replaces. Moreover, ethanol's
environmental benefits are debated: Including it in gasoline reduces carbon
monoxide emissions but can increase smog. In any case, a sane policy on
renewables should give promising alternative energy sources a government
boost, but it shouldn't pour billions in taxpayers' cash into products that
will never be remotely viable. Remember, ethanol already gets government
help: Since 1996, crop subsidies alone have been worth nearly $30 billion to
the industry. Increasing this help would be going too far, even if ethanol's
environmental merits were more certain.
Both ethanol's drawbacks are reflected in the Senate's legislation. The bill
creates a "safe harbor," protecting industry from suits arising out of
defective additives in gasoline -- hardly a sign of confidence in ethanol's
environmental merits. It also mandates increased ethanol consumption --
again, hardly a sign that ethanol expects to gain market share on its own --
requiring that gasoline refiners step up their use of ethanol from the
current level of around 1.7 billion gallons a year to 5 billion gallons by
2012. This mandated tripling of consumption might cause shortages and
therefore price spikes, especially since the ethanol market is dominated by
three producers, which could find ways to orchestrate scarcity and pocket
windfall profits. The biggest producer is Archer Daniels Midland, which in
1996 pleaded guilty to a charge of price-fixing and was fined $100 million.
The four Democratic senators from California and New York are calling this
ethanol provision what it is: a scheme to funnel money to agribusiness and
corn states at the expense of the rest of the country. One amendment to
limit the ethanol mandate was rebuffed last Thursday, but there may be
another chance today. The Senate should back the effort to remove the
ethanol provision from the energy bill, and Sen. Daschle should not resist,
despite his farm-state loyalties. Democrats have been trying to score points
against the Bush administration by demonstrating the link between corporate
lobbyists and the White House energy policy. If the Senate's Democratic
leaders now use the energy bill to funnel money to Archer Daniels Midland
and its ilk, they'll look like hypocrites.
Re:Ethanol (Score:3, Informative)
Well hemp would be less effective than corn, because ethanol is made from the fermentation of sugars, so the more sugars in the plant - the more ethanol yielded. Yes, one can make alcohols from grains, but the yield is less. Fruits yield more alcholos per volume than grains - corn yields more than hemp. Something ideal might be sugar cane.
Re:Ethanol (Score:3, Interesting)
"3) It (Ethanol)'s kind of fuel-intensive to make. Planting, harvesting, fertilizing, insecticiding, AND DISTILLING all take machines that use fuel. If you get 20 gallons per acre (totally made-up) and you use 20 gallons per acre (again, totally made up) to make it, how "fuel efficient" is it?"
Any it does not cost money to survey, drill, extract, store, transport, store again, refine, store again, transport again, store again, and then dispense petroleum distallates (crude -> gasoline)? Just because half of that labor is done at far lower cost than farm workers (who have a strong lobby with bought politicians) by workers of oil companies who have their own competing political pawns?
Once again, elements of truth and elements of rhetoric in both arguments. Yes, ethanol burns cleaner and is renewable. Yes, it currently costs more to produce... for a number of reasons. But in either case, it costs money to make money, right? It takes energy to produce portable energy as well. The true technological advantages and disadvantages of ethanol may never be known, thanks to this political in-fighting.
Sidebar: what about the organized labor lobby for highway workers who pour asphalt every four years on every major road in the US? They have successfully negotiated a decades-long congressional moratorium on deployment on an asphalt replacement made out of the chopped up bits of discarded tires; millions of which fill up plots across America. The cost is half as much, and has twice the durability. So there would be less asphalt produced, and half the labor needed. WE CAN'T HAVE THAT, CAN WE??? Jimmy Smith won't be able to lean on his shovel for fiften minutes out of every hour then go back to grinding up the old road surface for $23 an hour (and pay his union dues) if we take away half of his work!!
Fascinating, how we let the lawyers, politicans, and corporatists rule us; and all the opposition that is out there are corrupt organizations masquerading as consumerists, special-interest groups, and employee-rights advocates, who are mainly just socialists who get a capitalist-sized paycheck. And we just sit around taking it, saying we'll vote for the other guy.
Hint: There is no other guy.
Ethanol is no solution, it's part of the problem (Score:4, Insightful)
Site your sources (Score:3, Insightful)
-Dave
Re:Ethanol is no solution, it's part of the proble (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Ethanol (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Ethanol (Score:5, Informative)
It is not at all clear that ethanol saves any oil at all.
In a good year (with high corn yields) most studies show that ethanol production is slightly energy positive. That is, the energy content of a gallon of ethanol exceeds by approximately 15% the energy that goes into producing it. In a bad year, when yeilds are lower, it can easily require more than 80,000 BTU to produce a gallon of ethanol. (See, for example, this study [mcgill.ca].) On average it's probably about a wash. It would be interesting to see what the reaction would be to requiring ethanol producers to use ethanol instead of fossil fuel for all steps in production.
It is also questionable whether ethanol reduces CO2 emissions. From that standpoint, it would probably be better to grow trees or hemp, which would recycle more CO2 than any reduction due to burning CO2 rather than fossil fuels.
Direct links to car info (Score:4, Informative)
A hippie van (Score:3, Funny)
Re:A hippie van (Score:2)
But I can only afford the one vehicle. And after 12 years of owning identical vehicles, I suddenly have had two people make rude comments to me about it as it is an SUV.
When I am behind a beat-up old Volkswagon or other "cool" car and it is burning oil and belching smoke to the point that I am having a hard time breathing, I can't understand how my modern car with pollution controls and similar gas mileage is worse just because it is 4WD.
Re:A hippie van (Score:2)
Also, people in vw's are using a lot less gas than, say, a Ford Expedition. And they aren't using any of the power on air conditioning.
The ultimate ride (Score:2, Funny)
Can you name the truck with four wheel drive,
Smells like a steak, and seats thirty five?
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Well, it goes real slow with the hammer down
It's the country-fried truck endorsed by a clown
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Hey, hey!
Twelve yards long, two lanes wide,
Sixty five tons of American pride!
Canyonero! Canyonero!
Top of the line in utility sports,
Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts!
Canyonero! Canyonero!
She blinds everybody with her super high beams
She's a squirrel-squashin', deer-smackin' drivin' machine
Canyonero! Canyonero! Canyonero!
Whoa, Canyonero! Whoa!
Ed Begley (Score:3, Funny)
Begley: I prefer a vehicle that doesn't hurt Mother Earth. It's a go-cart, powered by my own sense of self-satisfaction.
[Begley attaches a wired-helmet to his head and quickly drives off]
Simple. Don't (Score:2, Insightful)
1. For any given task, a certain amount of energy is needed.
2. Batteries are highly inefficient as stores of energy.
3. Admittedly, gasoline isn't much better, but it is somewhat more efficient.
4. Highly efficient fueled cars such as the VW Jetta TDI (4 cylinder diesel) can get upwards of 50MPG on the highway, and 40-45 city.
5. The vast majority of electric power comes from...wait for it.. fossil fuel plants.
So thus, in the context of a car, you ARE going to consuming fossil fuels directly or indirectly. Given that, to minimize environmental impact, find the most fuel efficient car you can.
Re:Simple. Don't (Score:3, Insightful)
50mpg = 50mpg, however you look at it. Which is heavier, a pound of feathers or a pound of lead?
Honda Insight... (Score:2)
Oil is a limited resource, but hopefully sometime soon (crosses fingers) we won't have to rely on it so heavily. GM has a timeline for a fuel cell car in 10 years, the Honda should last you till then.
The reason I think GM might make it is because unlike most other car companies, they are redesigning everything from the ground up. Most other companies are trying to just plop a fuel cell next to a electric engine and expect it to work. Tho a more complete article is in the new issue of Wired, here is a brief article about it, at Wired.com [wired.com].
The problem with all these cars... (Score:2)
I actually semi-considered getting an Insight until I saw the fucking thing. It's hideous! It looks like a squashed milk carton. The one I saw was barf-green, too, which didn't help matters much.
I ended up getting a 3-series instead, which not only doesn't look like ass, but also has no problem going over 65. (I guess I'm a Bad Person for using a gasoline-powered car though.)
- A.P.
My experiences with the Prius (Score:5, Informative)
I was considering the Insight, but it's only two seats, and two doors as you mentioned, so I decided to go with the Prius, as it's basically the same size as any other compact sedan.
I was looking into pure electric and gas cars, but decided not to at this time, because sometimes I like to take long-distance trips (eg, between the Bay Area, and LA, or to Nevada/Las Vegas) and there are no electric or gas refueling stations for long stretches outside urban areas, making long-distance road trips impossible with these vehicles' current range.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/ It might be useful for you as well, although it's geared more towards current owners.
As for the car itself, It's proven to be 100% reliable thus far in the 14 months that I've had it, and I've been averaging 50 MPG or so. It definitely is worth it, at least for me, since I commute about 45 miles a day round trip.
If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask me. If you want an independent assessment, john1701a.com [john1701a.com] has a lot of info on it from a owner. The group groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/ [yahoo.com] has a lot to offer as well with many helpful people.
Finally, since this is
I'd agree hybrid is the way to go (Score:2)
how about an electric porsche convertible? (Score:4, Interesting)
http://www.renewables.com/ElectricSpyder.htm
I suggest getting a hybrid (Score:2)
The nice thing about a hybrid car is that not only do you get extremely low emissions (both cars I mentioned meet the world's toughest standard for gas-powered automobile engines, the California Air Resources Board (CARB) Super-Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle (SULEV) standard), but you can refuel from any gasoline station and get way over 400 miles between fillups.
Note that the Prius does take some getting used to though. The instrument panel is located on the center of the dashboard, the acceleration and braking on the Prius feels a bit different than a regular car in many ways. Mind you, the Prius has excellent interior room and a surprisingly roomy trunk, not a mean feat with space needed to hold the batteries.
EV1 == very interesting ride (Score:3, Insightful)
It is disappointing that electric cars are not yet economically viable. Just take one for a test drive and you will see that there is a lot more work to be done in improving personal transportation.
motorcycle or tiny diesel (Score:2)
An electric car is not an alternative fuel unless all of the power from your grid is via solar or wind (I don't count hydro, as this usually comes from a dam that disrupted local flora/fauna).
You may also want to consider one of the many turbo-diesel cars available. Gas mileage comparable to the motorcycle with more crash-worthiness.
In addition, there are many other CNG vehicles available than the Honda. At least there were. Two that I know of are the Ford Crown Vic. and the Ford Taurus. It's possible these are only available for fleet sales.
Check out corbin motors [corbinmotors.com] for an interesting vehicle called the sparrow. It looks like there are TEN dealers in your area.
Finally, being in San Fran. with only ~50 mile round trips, what prevents you from using mass transit?
Re:motorcycle or tiny diesel (Score:2)
Wind/solar farms are just as disruptive as hydro power. To get the generating capacity of something like Hoover Dam you need many large wind/solar installations, plus the eco impact of manufacturing tremendous amounts of related equipment. People often forget that wind/solar are pretty 'low density' energy sources.
Prius (Score:4, Interesting)
The only problem she had with the car so far was running over accident debris that slashed a rear tire. Other than that, its supposed to have an incredible warranty. Something like 10 years. Toyota knows this is an experimental car, so they want to know what kinds of problems we have. None so far.
Bumper Stickers (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Bumper Stickers (Score:3, Insightful)
"I support a foreign terrorist regieme, but what do I care, I like driving my SUV"
In the end, they gave a message about buying foreign oil.
How does a Honda die? (Score:3, Informative)
At any rate the Civic HX is a gas only and gets about 80-85% of the mileage of the Civic electric hybrid. The insight is more of a concept car - only two seats no back at all no storage really. The Prius is an Echo with a different powerplant to give you a sense of the bigger size.
Toyota is supposed to be delivering a hybrid next year if I remember correctly. Probably based on a Corolla floorpan.
a couplet of ideas (Score:5, Interesting)
First, the Corbin Sparrow [corbinmotors.com] really seems to taking hold in places like Los Angeles and to a lessor degree Atlanta.
However, the lowest emissions vehicle around is a bicycle [ceejbot.com]. I mean this in all seriousness. The Bay area has a uniquely nice bicycling climate, and since you already have one car, you don't have to give up the occasional hauling-of-big-stuff cars are good at. And don't underestimate the health benefits of such daily exercise. I love it since you don't have to take extra time out of your day just to go to the gym.
In the Bay Area, there's even a service to shuttle bicycles over the Bay bridge for $1 [transitinfo.org].
Re:a couplet of ideas: My cycling experience (Score:3, Interesting)
I've been doing the cycling thing ever since college. My experience is that a ten mile commute is very doable. The best part is that you wind up in killer shape from that. Ideally you'd live on the temperat west coast or the southwest. I dunno too much about the weather patterns of the Southeast, but I'll assume there's a couple of months out of the year where it's too hot to ride. When I lived on the west coast, my bike journeys were almost always in excess of eight miles due to various circumstances. Eight miles is pretty pleasant and fun unless you have to ride through mountains. Fifteen miles is doable, but not if you're on a tight time table and certainly not every day. Living out in the midwest the main problem I have is weight gain during the the two to three months where it's just too cold an snowy to ride. I find that if I'm dressed right, I can ride somewhat comfortably down to 15 degres F. After that I say F*** it. Getting back in spring takes a month before I'm totally with it. The other positive thing about cycling is that public transpotation is increasingly accomadating bikes. In Ann Arbor where I live the buses now have racks. In Philly where I'm going to be living, the trains let you bring bikes aboard during non-peak hours. This really extends your range. The other cool thing that I see happening in urban areas is that cities and conservation groups are making bike trails along rivers and other green ways. Depending on how they're laid out both can really cut down your time even if they don't cut down your mileage. No stoplights and no traffic after all. One not so postive development is that moutnain bike manufacturers are no longer putting brazings on frames for racks sturdy enough to mount panniers. The big thing right now is disc brakes whose fittings supplant those for racks. I replaced my panniers when they wore out with Dana Design Bomb Pack because it's a big day backpack that does not push your head downwards when you sit on the bike wearing a helmet. 'Course I'm still riding the same old bike, but I dream of getting a new one.
Still delighted with my Prius (Score:3, Insightful)
Society of Automotive Engineers voted it best engineered car of 2001. I think it's the car Dilbert would drive.
The Honda Civic hybrid is the most direct competition. The Prius transmission is more elegant and *may* last longer, and the availability of pure-electric drive means the engine never needs to do destructive low-speed operation once it's warmed up. You may prefer the feel of the brakes on the Civic, and in ten years I bet it's easier to find Civic parts than Prius parts.
Ebay! (Score:2)
Just make sure you can get CNG where you are going. Other than that, BioDiesel is a good alternative.
On a side note... (Score:3, Insightful)
GM stopped making electric vehicles, but they will probably spend $10 Billion over the next several years advertising how green they are.
other ideas (Score:4, Informative)
-The current hybrid vehicles, IMO, offer a false ecomony due to their higher sticker price and uncertain disposal/replacement cost for the batteries +/- 8 years down the road.
-Looking at the Honda lineup it would make more sense economically to purchase the Civic HX Coupe or any other of the other non-hybrid Civics (or 4 cylinder Accords for that matter).
-Take a look at Intellichoice.com and fueleconomy.gov and do some calculations to determine the real, long term cost of a number of other vehicles (Ford Focus, Honda, Toyota, Saturn, etc)and see how it stacks up to the hybrids.
-The one caveat is that you need to know what happens what it is time to replace the batteries on a hybrid car.
-Lastly, check local rebates for buying a hybrid vehicle in your area, that might make up the initial cost difference in buying a hybrid vehicle.
Good luck!
Why Electric? (Score:2)
Car pool access (Score:3, Informative)
At last check, this benefit was not available to hybrid electric vehicles. Especially in a large metro area like San Francisco or Los Angeles this perk alone can pay for itself.
The California Air Resources board [ca.gov] provides a list of vehicles eligible for the carpool lane perk - choose carefully because not all alternative fuel vehicles are eligible!
A good resource to learn more is NGV.ORG [216.239.51.100] (I've linked to google's cache... this is a small box, please don't hammer our server.) which provides a list of cofunding opportunities available for natural gas vehicle owners, including tax breaks and rebates from the state of California.
Good luck in your search!
Biodiesel (Score:5, Interesting)
Hybrids really don't count IMHO as 'alternative fuel' vehicles, since they use two fuels that are exceedingly ordinary: gasoline and electricity. They should qualify for partial EV credit, and they're great for reducing fuel consumption, but without E85 they just aren't 'alternative fuel'.
I would recommend a late-model Volkswagen diesel and biodiesel as a true 'alternative fuel' vehicle. Diesels are more efficient, create less CO2 and other greenhouse gases, and last FOREVER. I just recently purchased a Mercedes diesel with 362000 miles on it, and I expect to get at least another 130000 miles on it with proper care and feeding. My car can't take 100% biodiesel without some fuel-line upgrades (bio eats rubber away since it's more oxygenated than petro) but any diesel since 1994 can take 100%. Another option, particularly in colder climes or with older cars, is B20, which is 20%bio/80%petro. Biodiesel doesn't contain sulfur, and is naturally oxygenated enough to prevent smelly particulate exhaust. In fact, tailpipe exhaust smells like french fries
Couple interesting Wired links on biodiesel:
here [wired.com] and
here [wired.com]
Even non-biodiesel is a better global environmental choice than gasoline/petrol since it's less intensive to refine. Diesel creates more NOx, large-particulate exhaust and sulfur (which lead to smog and acid rain), but the balance of impact is in its favor overall due to the efficiency of diesel engines. Also, if we could press for low-sulfur diesel, NOx could be handled with catalytic converters.
Oh, did I mention that biodiesel can be made from any biological substance that contains triglycerides? Hempseed, soybean, even used cooking fats can be 'cracked' into biodiesel, leaving glycerin. What to do with the glycerin though, that's the main Q...
A second electric? (Score:2)
How about Corbin Motors? (Score:3, Informative)
Corbin [corbinmotors.com] sells an electric-only model, the Sparrow; they were in the Jet Li movie, "The One", in the final scene about "the cleanest city in America":
Sparrow's Specifications
* Onboard battery charger
* Three-wheeled vehicle registers, insures and parks as a motorcycle
* 1350 lbs. curb weight, 72-inch wheel base, 57 inches vehicle height
* 70 mph top speed, 20-40 mile range
* $14,900 retail price
The Sparrow II has a 30-60 mile range and a $16,900 retail price. Corbin also advertises a gas-powered car, the Merlin, with "a 300 to 400 mile range on a tank of gas and a projected 70 to 90 miles per gallon", but it won't be out until the fall of 2003.
two more cars (Score:2)
Have Prius ... love it. (Score:5, Informative)
I've put about 11,000 miles on my Prius in the first year of ownership. About half of them are highway miles on roadtrips; about 10% of them are short (1-2 mile) hops in town. Its lifetime fuel economy is about 48MPG. Range is about 500-600 miles. On the highway it consistently gets over 45 MPG (and I'm not gentle on the throttle -- 70-80 MPH on the level, and I floor it when I'm crossing the Rockies -- I live in Colorado). In town it gets 35-38 for the first mile or two, until the engine is warm -- then more like 48-52.
The Prius has no transmission at all -- just a second differential that shunts power between two electric motors/generators and the engine. (How it works [insightcentral.net]). It's all drive-by-wire: the gas pedal is just a rheostat connected to the drive computer.
The engine has a lot of cool stuff to it: an off-center crankshaft, variable compression ratio, and (ISTR) noncircular pistons. Because of the differential it runs at more or less whatever speed the computer wants, regardless of how fast you're going.
For me (in Colorado) a pure EV was right out because of the low energy density of batteries -- it's hard to climb mountains in a pure EV. The Prius battery is used for load leveling on the engine (gas engines run best when the load is conditioned). Climbing over about 2000 feet vertical at freeway speeds drains the battery, but the computer handles it gracefully and the car just slows down to about 55 mph (on a standard 7% freeway grade). Conversely, coming down more than about 1000 feet of altitude will fill the battery to the top from regen braking, and again the computer does the Right Thing, using the engine as a conventional compression brake rather than blowing up the battery pack.
So even though the Prius isn't designed for mountain climbing it works acceptably under even strenuous climbing conditions. The interior is roomy and holds five people with no trouble. The trunk is adequate. The ride is quiet, and the gas mileage sure doesn't stink. Cornering is very good: tight turn radius and surprising traction given the high-mileage tires. Clearance is adequate but low: it's 4 inches under load, though the bottom 2 inches is just a flexible plastic air dam -- so you can get over 5" high obstacles without killing the car.
The Insight gets better gas mileage, looks cooler, and has better acceleration when you actually want it (though I imagine Prius ROM mods will come out one day that boost the acceleration -- the computer really does use conservative settings), but it's also really tiny -- the Insight is more of a "geek sports car". Toyota went out of their way to make the Prius look-and-feel like a basic (if plush) family car, and they succeeded.
Alternative fuels vs. alternative drivetrains. (Score:2)
As to alternative fuel - Biodiesel has been mentioned.
Regular engines can be converted to CNG with relative ease - I once saw a Dodge Spirit (same car I drive) with a CNG fillup. Try to find a design where the fillup connector (big ball-shaped thing in the case of this car) doesn't stick out - it's ugly.
Engines can also be converted to use M85 (85% methanol, 15% gasoline), but it's not really worth it. M85 is 15-25% cheaper per gallon, but has only 50% of the energy density. Also, methanol is VERY corrosive, so significant portions of the engine have to be replaced with corrosion-resistant parts. Chrysler made a few M85-capable cars (the FFV version of the Dodge Spirit/Plymouth Acclaim and minivans), and replacement parts for the FFV versions are nearly impossible, if not completely impossible, to find.
Or wait for the likes of the Escape HEV - 40 MPG in an SUV body, pretty amazing. I'd like to see the middle ground - All of the current hybrids and electrics are tiny little ugly pieces of junk. I want a full-size hybrid sedan that looks just like its gas-powered brethren, or a hybrid minivan.
Of course, the question is, WHY do you want to go alternative fuel? These days there are far worse things for the environment than modern cars - IC engines have come a LONG way in the areas of emissions control. You're not going to save any money - Electricity costs are skyrocketing, and it's been shown that in the end, pure electrics pollute more. (While coal-fired power plants produce less emissions per kilowatt, by the time you factor in all the transmission/charging losses, you're polluting more). Hybrids get insane gas mileage, but at the moment the technology isn't mature enough. You're going to be paying far more in maintenance costs for your unconventional design.
I'm not saying that IC engines are here to stay forever, just that hybrids are just plain not viable yet and won't be for a few years.
If you think Honda cares about the environment, you're wrong. http://www.lemonaidcars.com/secret_warranties.htm - Their emissions control systems were so bad from '95 to '97 that they were FORCED by the EPA to repair any emissions problem with those model years for free - And Honda will fight you all the way on those repairs until you threaten to call the EPA on them. The Insight/Civic HEV is just damage control. If they really wanted to benefit the environment, they'd focus on large vehicles first, where hybrid technology can make the biggest difference. (GM had statistics that if one medium-sized city had their buses replaced with hybrids, it would be better for the environment than if all Civics sold in a given year were hybrids. Which is why they're focusing on buses first - You don't see it much, but GM is pushing hybrid technology research VERY heavily. Same with Ford - Their first hybrid release will be the Escape HEV.)
Honda Civic Hybrid is great! (Score:4, Interesting)
I test drove this model a few weeks back, and it was an absolute pleasure.
The best part? Pulling up to a red light, and sitting there in complete silence, without wasting any gas. Ahh...
Insight, if you are careful (Score:4, Insightful)
The battery pack is replaced often.. If you get one get the hyper-extended warrenty, as you will be replacing that battery pack many many times.. my friend has had his 18 months and has replaced his 3 times.... and from what I hear this is not uncommon for insights that are used as a daily driver in anyplace that is not 70-72degF all the time. winter causes the packs to die horribly.
weight limit.. I CANNOT ride in his car (Ok I'm a fat ass..) as I with him exceed the car's weight limit completely... most any american couple will do this unless you are in souther california and live the bolimic lifestyle or are not normal weight (180 - 230 lbs typical american weight.)
finally , they ding really really easy. a pop can has thicker metal. dont lean on it, dont fart at it dont even look at it funny as it will ding/dent instantly.
Diesel and Biodiesel (Score:3, Insightful)
home made diesel (Score:3, Interesting)
my chouce would be the hybrid electric civic or the vw tdi based cars [vw.com], friends of mine say they are wonderful.
If I were in your shoes.... (Score:5, Informative)
First a disclaimer: I'm unemployed right now (please check out my resume [trumpetpower.com] and hire me!) and driving a '68 VW camper. I can't afford a new car, but that hasn't stopped me from looking.
The Honda Insight is a fascinating car. It's as if Honda took every neat new technology they've been working on and crammed it in. Unfortunately, it's small--just a two-seater--and expensive--in the low $20Ks.
For that much money or less, you can get a Volkswagen with the TDI engine. The two-door VW TDIs (the Bug and the Golf) get better mileage than any other car sold in America except for the Insight. You can drive non-stop from Salt Lake City to Los Angeles on one tank of fuel, and that's a trip I personally would take at elast two days to drive. They're also among the least-polluting cars available, though there are cleaner ones out there. The Bug has (one of?) the highest safety ratings you'll find.
The catch? They're both turbocharged diesel engines. Wait! Don't run away! A diesel engine doesn't have to be the awful, smelly, polluting nightmare you're all thinking of. When properly engineered, as is the TDI, it's superior to gasoline:
But the real thing to do with one of these cars is run it off of biodiesel instead of petroleum-based diesel. Biodiesel is a high-cetane (the diesel version of octane) fuel made from vegetable oil. It's non-toxic; you could drizzle it over your salad...though it'd likely taste awful. The maufacturing process is very similar to the soap-making process; if you've ever made soap in your kitchen, you can make biodiesel in your kitchen. Biodiesel and petroleum-based diesel can be blended in any ratio desired simply by pouring them together.
The real advantage to biodiesel, however, is that every pound of carbon put into the atmosphere via the tailpipe had been previously removed from the atmosphere by the plant. No increased CO2! (Petroleum-based diesel pumps carbon from the ground and puts it into the air.) And, because the plant pulls more carbon out of the air for itself (instead of just its seeds), each pound of biodiesel results in a net decrease of atmospheric CO2.
In essence, biodiesel is the solar storage mechanism everybody keeps looking for. Run all those trains, trucks, and power plants from solar power (by way of corn and soy) and reduce dependence on oil all at the same time! All the infrastructure is already in place....
So, buy a car with a TDI engine, and you get incredible mileage and have the option of using either fuel you can find anywhere or a very environmentally-friendly fuel.
Now, if only somebody would give me a job, I'd go out and buy one....
b&
Alternative options (Score:4, Interesting)
Also, we drive an all-electric vehicle which though outside of the poster's requirements, may warrant consideration for anyone doing short-haul driving in sub-35 mph zones: the line of vehicles from GEM [gemcar.com]
We have been driving one for about 3 months now and use it for commuting to our offices and to downtown Portland. Neither commute requires us to exceed 25mph.
It has more pick-up than you might think. In the rain, the vehicle does a pretty good job of keeping water off you (my model doesn't have doors). There are doors available, similar to what you would see on a Jeep CJ, as an aftermarket accessory. It is an ideal neighborhood car.
Here are answers to some of the common questions we get, often in traffic.
Q. What the hell is that?
A. A GEM electric car, manufactured by Global Electric Motors [gemcar.com], a division of DaimlerChrysler Corporation. The specific model I have is the GEM E825 Utility Vehicle (Short Box).
Q. Is it street legal?
It is on streets with a speed limit of 35mph or below.
Q. How fast does it go?
A. 25 mph.
Q. How far can you drive it?
It varies based on the terrain you are driving it on and the ambient temperatures, but I have driven it over 15 miles on a charge. The stated range is 35 miles.
Q. How do you charge it?
It charges on household current.
Q. Stats?
A. From the GEM website [gemcar.com]
Curb Weight: 1160 lb. with batteries
GVW: 1850 lb. (Gross Vehicle Weight)
Width: 55 inches
Wheelbase: 71.1 inches
Length: 116 inches
Height: 69.5 inches
Turning Radius: 13 feet 7 inches
Q. Is it fun?
A. You betcha.
Get a RAV4 EV! (Score:3, Interesting)
On a semi-related note, in response to all those Slashdot readers who keep spouting the same crap everytime an electric car comes into discussion- yes electrics are cleaner even if you do have fuels like coal as the source (which is not a significant part of the power mix in CA) because it is much easier to clean fuel at one place than in every vehicle, and if you want to calculate environmental effects of the production of fuel, don't forget all the effects of making gas . Additionally, if you have the option of selecting your power source like we did (we chose Commonwealth Energy) you can in fact get your power from clean sources.
Several options for you (Score:3, Interesting)
Toyota RA4 EV [toyota.com] - yes it's an SUV but the NiMH batteries are supposed to last 100,000 miles, maintenance free; and it gets 126 miles to the charge; and it has all the creature comforts. I think it's kindof ironic all this high-tech stuff is being put in an SUV. Just think how much better the range would be if they'd put the same powertrain in a sports car with good drag coefficient and low frontal area. But, as far as I can tell this is the best new EV that you can actually buy right now. Only in California, unfortunately. I presume for charging it uses the GM paddle system like your EV1 but haven't confirmed that.
You could just get a used one on ebay; I was very tempted to bid on this [ebay.com] but decided to wait on an electric for now. Here's an electric S10 pickup [ebay.com]. I test drove one of these once; it's a lot like an EV1, same technology in a pickup. Supposedly you can buy these in California too, but I'm not sure whether new or used. Otherwise they tend to show up as surplus from electric-company fleet programs now and then.
How has your service from GM been? I was tempted to buy one of these S10s but I figured GM has been acting like they want to forget that they ever had electric cars, so what are the chances of getting good service 5 or 10 years from now? And these things are too complicated to fix yourself, probably. Whatcha gonna do if the inverter fails? AC drives are not common in conversion EVs, and tend to be rather pricey.
Finally, if you're not on the EV mailing list [madkatz.com], you should be. You will get a ton of good advice there; most of the subscribers are hard-core electric vehicle hobbyists who build their own conversions at home.
And congratulations on having a brain and being willing to put up with all the stupid naysayers out there, or the ones who keep repeating the same tired old objections about powerplants using fossil fuels (nevermind that they do it so much more efficiently than even the best IC engine) or "why don't you connect a generator to the wheels and make your own electricity." I'm always surprised how otherwise seemingly-smart people will laugh at you when you mention something about electric vehicles. Every new technology has to have its pioneers. And in the long term the earth isn't giving us much choice about switching away from fossil fuels anyway. This is why I do not advocate hybrid vehicles. You can conserve gas with those, but I think in any conceivable future there will always be some alternative way to generate electricity, so maybe electric cars are here to stay in one form or another.
So many cars (Score:5, Informative)
Pure Electric:
2002 The Nissan Altra EV (pilot?) [nissandriven.com]
2002 Ford Thi!nk City [thinkmobility.com]
2002 Toyota Rav4-EV [toyota.com]
2002 Lido Motors Lido [lidomotors.com]
2002 Ford Ranger EV (fleet only?) [ford.com]
2002 Nissan HyperMini (pilot only?) [nissandriven.com]
Selectria Force (out of production?) [solectria.com]
Hybrids:
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid [hondacars.com]
2002 Honda Insight [honda2000.com]
2002 Toyota Prius [toyota.com]
Web Sites of Interest:
EV World [evworld.com]
US DoE Alternative Fuel Car Buying Guide (many listed) [doe.gov]
US DoE Alternative Fuel Vehicle Listing (many listed) [nrel.gov]
California ZEV Buyers Guide [ca.gov]
More poillution than a Hybrid ... (Score:3, Insightful)
PURE electrics are responsible for the generation of more polution than comprable hybrid vehicles.
No ? Just look around at EV sites and it wont take you long to realized that generating electricity at a plant ??? miles away, transmission loss and all the fun add up to MORE FRIGGING polution in the generation of that electricity than a hybrid creates.
Not to metnion the long term battery and chemical disposal issues. Thats a whopper too.
Wait for one of the Borax Powered Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles from Chrysler. Cost is supposed to be low, and emission zero.
Barring that look at some of the hybrid vehicles.
Sometimes I have to question peoples motives of EV , if its convinience thats OK, my neighbor has been using the same elctric lawn mower for 20 years, its easy, quiet cheap, the only thing he spends money on is a new extension cord every 3 years or so after he's chopped his umpteen times. If you are looking at an EV for enviromental reasons, PLEASE get a clue. PURE EV pollute more than hybrids, and some more than LEV.
My favorite action by an enviromental group was the guys in Calif, that burned an allotment down under construction. POINTS , 1 for burning, 2 like inscurance isnt going to pay and end up cutting more trees to rebuild ? 3, the fumes from all the insulation cooking ? 4 we deforest more area to rebuild an allotment "TREE HUGGERS" were protesting the cutting of trees ?
I would seriously wait for the Chryslers to be sold they seem AWFULL SLICK !
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/auto/article/0,125
If you havent seen or heard about it
Parade (Score:3, Informative)
Specs include:
Range : 60miles(EV60)/150miles(EV150)
Acceleration : 8 seconds for 0-60 km/h
Top Speed : 110km/h
Made in Korea.
aerodynamics, dumbass (Score:2)
Re:How about something not ugly (Score:2)
Personally, if I had to choose between ugly wheel covers or a 10% reduction in fuel economy, I know which way I'd go, and Honda evidently agrees with me.
If you want an insight without wheel covers:
http://www.electroauto.com/gallery/crx.shtml
h
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Whatever you do, don't go with the Prius (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Whatever you do, don't go with the Prius (Score:3, Insightful)
In addition to getting excellent gas mileage, the prius is also a SULEV (your other car is maybe a LEV if you're lucky).
Re:Whatever you do, don't go with the Prius (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Bogus Environmentalism (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Bicycling, the unsubsidized solution (Score:3, Insightful)
Bicycle paths are mostly meant to mitigate the danger created by motorists on other roads, which are subsidized.