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Governmental Transparency? 34

CosmicDreams asks: "With our concern about transparency in business transactions these days, should we focus on what is arguably the largest business of all, government? Today, it is possible to build a system in which the official interactions (social, fiscal, and oral) of our elected officials can be presented to world in an uncensored, unspinned, and quick-to-market medium. Unlike talk radio, newspapers, and late night stand-up routines, only the internet can possibly supply the public which a near instantaneous collection of news in sheer bulk form. What would the effects of such a system be on America and the world? I would be interested in hearing opinions on this matter."
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Governmental Transparency?

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  • Why? (Score:4, Funny)

    by mshiltonj ( 220311 ) <mshiltonj@@@gmail...com> on Monday November 18, 2002 @05:21PM (#4700968) Homepage Journal
    Today, it is possible to build a system in which the official interactions (social, fiscal, and oral) of our elected officials can be presented to world in an uncensored, unspinned, and quick-to-market medium.

    Why do you want this information? What are you -- some kind of terrorist?

    "Please step aside, sir. We would like to ask you a few questions."

    ... and we never heard from him again.
  • Wonderful idea ... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Daniel Dvorkin ( 106857 ) on Monday November 18, 2002 @05:25PM (#4701020) Homepage Journal
    ... but it will only ever happen if We The People (for those outside the US, insert patriotic identifier for yourself and your fellow citizens here) stand up and demand it. And the way to do that is by voting for politicians who have an understanding of the value of implementing such a technology. In 2000, we did vote for such a candidate -- to forestall any stupid "invented the internet" jokes, I'm going to say that yes, damn it, Al Gore did have as much as any politican possibly could to bring the internet into existence, at a time when George W. Bush probably barely had any idea what a computer was -- but legal machinations prevented him from taking the office to which he was rightfully elected.

    Good luck changing things now. Once-free overnments all over the world are moving in the direction of less openness, not more. In the US, the Freedom of Information Act is just about dead as a consequence of the "War On (Drugs/Terror/Iraq/villain of the month)". The irony is, of course, that at least some repressive governments are opening up, just a bit; at this point, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we see electronically open government in China before we see it in the US, or Great Britain, or France, or Germany, or Japan. (Depressed, but not surprised.)

    Once upon a time, the US government was taking steps in this direction. FOIA requests, even by e-mail, were answered more often than not. Sites like FedStats [fedstats.gov] still remain as monuments to a genuine initiative, during the last decade, to making the government's vast store of information a resoucre of the people, by the people, and for the people. Enjoy it while you can, folks, because right now the trend is toward taking this stuff away, not expanding it.

    And for God's sake, keep voting. The fraud machinery that stole the 2000 election is powerful, but it's not unbeatable. Yet.
    • Interesting question... What election did Al Gore win ??? He certainly didn't win the election in 2000 despite what partisan politicians want you to believe, he lost in Florida, he lost in the electorial college, heck he lost in his own homestate of Tennesee.

      Now show me the result of the presidential election that has Al Gore with more votes than George W...

      • this is speculation combined with poor memory, so don't take this for truth without proper research, but...

        i seem to recall that al gore actually received more total votes than george w. But because of the way the system of the electoral college works and the distribution of votes, he did not get the majority of the electoral college.

        I could be wrong, but I believe I'm not.

        Regardless of that, nobody seemed to raise a fuss about the electoral college before the election, nor do they seem to have continued the fuss raised, so it seems that nobody really minds.

        • Okay, here's something I think the pro-Gore guys should see:

          http://www.mattcallaway.com/map.html

          This is the map of the 2000 election, county-by-county. Now, whether you agree with the electoral system or not, this is the reason why it exists. Because someone could recieve more electoral votes by appealing to the values of the urban and suburban citizenry, without a mandate from the people who live outside the city.

          I hate to have to say it, but people who live in cities have different values from people who live in the country. The reason? The issues that face them are completely different. And the methods of dealing with those issues are different, too. In the country, people respect those who make a living on their own. In the city, the solution to most problems is collective, almost socialist, action. The reason is that people in the cities live closer together and more dependent on links in a chain. Have you ever heard of a metrorail in the middle of montana?

          I believe the Founding Fathers had a better idea than Karl Marx, but I guess that's because I was raised in a small town in the middle of Podunk, Georgia.
      • Gore received more of the popular vote than Bush -- i.e., more Americans voted for Gore than for Bush. This is not in dispute even by the most ardent Republicans, except those with very short memories.

        The disputed part is who received more votes in Florida, since under the Electoral College system the popular vote doesn't much matter. And I, and a whole bunch of other people, remain convinced that Gore received more votes in Florida as well as in the country as a whole, and that it took some serious legal machinations on the part of the Republican Party to cover that up. Ultimately, the vote that decided the 2000 election was one in Washington DC, and the electorate in that vote was nine people who split 5-4.
        • Okay, here's something I think the pro-Gore guys should see:

          http://www.mattcallaway.com/map.html

          This is the map of the 2000 election, county-by-county. Now, whether you agree with the electoral system or not, this is the reason why it exists. Because someone could recieve more electoral votes by appealing to the values of the urban and suburban citizenry, without a mandate from the people who live outside the city.

          I hate to have to say it, but people who live in cities have different values from people who live in the country. The reason? The issues that face them are completely different. And the methods of dealing with those issues are different, too. In the country, people respect those who make a living on their own. In the city, the solution to most problems is collective, almost socialist, action. The reason is that people in the cities live closer together and more dependent on links in a chain. Have you ever heard of a metrorail in the middle of montana?

          Besides, more than 30 independant recounts have been carried out, and all have either confirmed Bush as the statewide winner, or have said that if we went with Gore's select-county recount, then he would've won (but the ones that say that also say Gore was the winner. I was calling for a statewide recount, and I'd have been satisfied if Gore would've done that, rather than carry out recount after recount after recount on those few counties).
  • by Dr. Bent ( 533421 ) <ben@@@int...com> on Monday November 18, 2002 @05:25PM (#4701023) Homepage
    This is basic information theory. A particular peice of information only has value when it is significantly different from other information. Since nobody has yet been able to develop technology that distinguishes "Dog Bites Man" from "Man Bites Dog" at the semantic level, you need people to sift through it for you. This is why you hire a lawyer, watch the nightly news, or read slashdot...because getting information in bulk form in bulk is way too time consuming.

    Don't get me wrong here, I'm all for transparent government, but if nobody has the time or energy to sift through the mountians of info, it isn't going to do you a damn bit of good.
    • The point is, it would be easy to find and access the raw information if you needed or wanted to. If you were researching a subject, or really cared to get to the bottom of it, you could go find the raw information, without the biases of your lawyer, the nightly news, or slashdot.
    • The thing is that we have tools to sift through the bulk data to extract meaningful information. There is an entire industry of analysts in think tanks who analyze government information. What really is needed is a cross think tank method of comparing apples to apples and really getting at the truth. When bill amendments are web published in real time and sneaky, underhanded legislation can be analyzed and protested inside of 24 hours, you are going to see a real drop in pork funding and sneaky attempts at stripping rights.

      Regulatory analysis is just as important as a tremendous amount of foolishness goes on through the rule making process and is similarly dependent on doing things under cover of darkness.

  • see opensecrets.org (Score:4, Informative)

    by pbox ( 146337 ) on Monday November 18, 2002 @05:38PM (#4701199) Homepage Journal
    See opensecrets.org [opensecrets.org] for a very nicely organized info on your elected officials. Very informative read. And it is not just to bulk data, but also the data summaries and presentment that really counts.
  • ...only the internet can possibly supply the public [with] a near instantaneous collection of news in sheer bulk form. What would the effects of such a system be on America and the world?


    "Also in the news, the Earth's first global YAWN preceded the fall of the worldwide vallium market today..."
  • overload! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by macdaddy357 ( 582412 ) <macdaddy357@hotmail.com> on Monday November 18, 2002 @05:53PM (#4701354)
    This much information is almost already available online, but there is way too much to absorb. The average idiot would just be confused by it all, and fall back on talk radio and the idiot box to spoonfeed beliefs and views. Money would still talk, bullshit would still walk. More freely flowing information would be no threat to American oligarchy.
  • You'd have too much information.

    Want to know what a senator said? Well, you can read the journal that is printed everyday. Though, it'll take a long time to get anything from it.

    Want to read a law in full? Probably not, they're really hard to read and full of jargon.

    Want to know the text of messages sent between government offices? Many times they're too boring, or comminication is done between personal relationships that would suffer if all was to be non-personal for the public to see.

    The government has a great deal of information online already. And they're probably going to make more public with time. What is needed is not more information (so much as) someone to cut through it all and give a non-biased assesment, with links to the full report for further study.

    When you can find this mythical non-biased person, we can talk about giving it the job.
  • In a democracy, allowing the electorate access
    to raw information about the operations of government
    is very counter-productive, because they will tend
    to vote in an uncontrolled manner.

    For example, could the Gulf War have been conducted
    if it's pretextual deceits were not prominently
    featured by the 5 major global media corporations?
    Could it have been continued to a successful
    conclusion if the massive extermination of the
    Iraqis in the neutral zone and southern Iraq had
    been covered in widely available press? Squeamish
    elements would have militated vociferously against
    the mass-live-burial in the neutral zone, and
    the mass-incineration of the retreating, defeated
    soldiers and thousands of civillians on the "road
    of death".

    It's crucially important that the organs of the
    media which direct the attention of the masses
    should be responsible to the authorities, or
    the ability of the U.S. to subjugate the swarthy
    people with oil is threatened, and if that is
    threatened, the entire stock market is threatened.

  • by moc.tfosorcimgllib ( 602636 ) on Monday November 18, 2002 @06:03PM (#4701451) Journal
    People would block out the information overload.

    The majority of voters vote in herds, they have their own problems day-to-day, and instead of reading up on the issues, they follow the opinions of their friends, family, and church. Failing that they go based on the pictures of what people look like, or where a candidate is located on the card.

    People who have an issue will go in to vote for that issue. But what happens when there are 50 unrelated issues on the ballot you haven't heard of?

    The best solution might be electronic voting booths, where you can research the topics and look up words while voting (In a reasonable amount of time).
  • In a time when everyone is reviewing all-new-never-been-heard-of Microsoft Windows XP for Tablet Computing, having completely forgotten about the fiasco that was Microsoft Windows for Pen Computing (circa 1992, with as big a launch as MWXPFTC), I can forsee this discussion going on and on and never once mentioning that what Cosmic Dreams proposes is what Newt Gingrich promised the US electorate during his contract-with-America days. Yes, everything would be put online, every transaction instantly available, never-before-seen transparency, blah, blah, blah. A lot of techno-geeks voted for him because he UNDERSTOOD! He saw the LIGHT! But of course, as soon as they got into power, all of that open government stuff was sent off to a committee to die. Remember, these are the guys who swore term-limits were for them, who gave their oath not to serve more than 6 years, who wanted to give back government to the peepuls, who... broke their promises with hardly a stutter six years later. Let's face it. Geeks have no memory. If we demanded more than pretty promises, Linux would be user friendly today... What, me cynical?
    • Actually a this very election a number of people left due to term limits, not only from congress but also from leadership posts. Sure some of them *did* break their promises but they also tend not to have trouble at their next election over it.
  • Unfortunately, Red Tape is like Spaghetti Code. It's very good at securing jobs for those who aren't confident in their competence.

    This includes both career politicians of both major parties who survive by spin and civil service employees who surrender their political souls to the unions. It's not in the interest of these people for the legal voting population to understand what really goes on in the halls of government.
  • > What would the effects of such a system be on
    > America and the world?

    Such an improbable fantasy would result in the collapse of government (not that this would be a bad thing).
  • covered a good deal of this in his book, The Transparent Society. [davidbrin.com] Definitely worth a read as a thought experiment investigating a world without privacy, and as an examination of what privacy really is.
  • I think we're getting the kind of accountability you describe, most critically through secondary sources with the expertise to put the facts in context; they're no longer as limited by funding in accessing and citing primary materials. There is also a quick-and-easy paper trail available that can be used to confront political flip-flops in nanoseconds.

    I think the market (desire) for information will provide what you want. A nice example here in Northern Virginia was the defeat of a .5% sales tax hike to fund transportation improvements. A combination of anti-tax conservatives and anti-sprawl activists successfully opposed it while spending about 1/7 as much as the real estate developers who favored passage, critically using web sites and email viral campaigning.

    One element that will be harder to predict is the reaction of the public. Perhaps informatgion availability will encourage a desire to be informed. I sure appreciate having candidate white papers and such at my fingertips.

    Finally, and I should have written this first, the gov't does need to lift all roadblacks to the information getting out. A glaring problem cited repeatedly in recent years is access to the proceedings of Congressional committees, as well as other documents (example [pogo.org]). Another I care about is the declassification and digitization of secret documents. I don't know how much progress has been made on these fronts.
  • Most people just don't care. I've been reading a number of 'alternative' news sources for a while now, and trying to pass information on to other people. They are either uninterested, or find the subject fascinating but are still unwilling to make any changes to their lives. I've even been very careful to present 'information' rather than 'opinion', and encourage people to find out more for themselves and make up their own minds. Most just smile and nod and hope I will shut up soon.

    Another part of the problem, more relevant to your question, is that the majority of people actually DO believe what they read in the papers, or see on television. Those media tell them what to do, how to think, and "we must be right because we have a guy in a white coat!". People WANT that. Anyone presenting a different opinion is a crackpot, troublemaker, or 'has a history of alcohol abuse' (a good way to totally destroy someone's credibility without any proof). And if you DO present a good argument, it upsets most peoples' balance and makes them uncomfortable. Thus, they would rather pretend you are not there.

    Anyway, the 'pure facts' don't really help. We actually need the spin. It tells us the repercussions and consequences of whatever decision or report or committe finding means. The problem is - we only get one spin - the other spin usually unheard, classified, or debunked. Leading Edge [trufax.org] is one, Nexus [nexusmagazine.com] is another. There are others. These sources already give alternative descriptions for many events, but they are usually ignored, or belittled. Read them, with an open mind, then make your own decision.

  • Tsk, tsk.

    I would be interested in hearing opinions on this matter.

    Alas, even you want opinions!

    Many of the facts are out there already. It's up to you to find them and come to your own conclusions about what they mean.

    Are you any better than most of the population when you ask for opinions to help you distill down the vast mass of facts into a bite-sized nugget?

    I'm sympathetic to the immense task of digesting the information, culling the facts from the chaff of lies and spin that flow freely in the marketplace of ideas. It's no picnic, but it's what each person must do for themselves. If you don't, someone will do it for you and will thereby control what you think.

  • Things do not work as they should exactly fo this kind of mindset amongst many other reasons.

"When it comes to humility, I'm the greatest." -- Bullwinkle Moose

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