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Overseas Grad Studies for US Students? 64

foidulus asks: "I am currently a senior undergrad at Penn State looking into studying overseas. I spent 6 months working in Japan at an R&D lab and have published 1 paper with another pending publication(though I was researching security, however I would like to study bio-informatics). I am confident in my Japanese language skills, however it seems very tough to get any scholarships or funding there, but in the US a lot of schools seem to have tuition waivers and stipends(some even have health insurance!). Have any US Slashdot readers done any Masters/PhD work abroad? Do people from outside the US have any information on grad school in their country? What were your experiences? How did you get funding? Were your language skills adequate?" What differences can one expect when dealing with Graduate School in a foreign University compared to those in the United States?
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Overseas Grad Studies for US Students?

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  • by ChibiOne ( 716763 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @07:34PM (#9157970)
    The Japanese Government has a great set of scholarship programas for overseas students. You should try contacting the Japanese Embassy [emb-japan.go.jp], and ask for information on the Mombusho [mext.go.jp](Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology).
    • by saden1 ( 581102 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @10:17PM (#9158946)
      A friend of mine who attended University of Washington has went and studied in Japan for 1 year and his entire tuition was paid for by the Japanese government. He even managed to get a monthly allowance of about $1000 dollars. Japan is by far one of the better places to go study oversees.
      • I was on the Monbusho Scholarship undergrad program (note that it's no longer called Monbusho, but Monbu Kagakusho [Ministry of Education and Science]).

        The program gives you five years study in Japan, with the first year being spent at a language school and the remaining four years in an undergraduate program at a Japanese national university. The ministry pays all tuition fees and gives you a monthly allowance (when I was in the program, it was around 138,000 yen a month - equivalent to $US1250 or so).

        Th
        • What are the criteria for the program?
          • The main criteria are that you have to be from certain countries (mainly Asian), you have to be selected by either your government or the Japanese embassy in your country (this varies from country to country - in Singapore, for example, candidates are chosen directly by the Singaporean government, and have a few more restrictions on them than students from other countries), and you have to be under a certain age. There's not really much else - the application process involves some exams and interviews, but
  • Since I was in Jr High School and was exposed to the likes of Goethe's Faust [amazon.com]and Wagner's Ring [amazon.com] (what I still think of when someone says 'The Ring') by my awesome cultural studies teacher I have been more than infatuated with German culture and really which I had access to more diversity than the standard fare that is a given as an american kid in the late 20th century. Hopefully my children will have more access to the world they live in.

    If you are serious about moving to germany, this [amazon.com] is a good place t

  • Do people from outside the US have any information on grad school in their country?

    Perhaps they do... oh, wait, that's me :) No, sorry.
  • by emag ( 4640 ) <<gro.iksrug> <ta> <todhsals>> on Friday May 14, 2004 @08:29PM (#9158369) Homepage
    ...is that, for a change, *you* are the "annoying foreign grad student" who has a funny accent, eats funny food, and doesn't quite fit into the culture. Unless that's just a feature of schools in the US.
    • > Unless that's just a feature of schools in the US.

      Most likely, at least in Germany people is used to see foreigns and I never seen that kind of behavior, big cities in Germany are very multicultural and open to everybody. It is funny to see sometimes how a trip in the underground resembles pretty much a Benetton commercial [becool4school.com]. And please don't talk me about racism in Germany because that used to be loong ago. FYI: No, I'm not German, I'm just living here for a while and enjoying this great country.

    • Man, this is so true!

      I TA'd a CS class in Germany (in German) one semester. I'm a native American English speaker, who learned German in undergrad. Let me tell you, those foreign language classes you take at home only prepare you for dealing with literary and cultural studies, conversation, and daily life. Nobody teaches you how to say 'pointer' or 'worst-case running time' or even how to read a mathematical formula ('three times e to third plus the log of x').

      If nothing else, it gave me a whole ne

      • "US food is more or less a superset of German food"??

        Well, I suppose that's more or less true, if you ignore the fact that the stuff they call "Beer" in the US wouldn't pass for piss in Germany. Don't even get me started on Sausages, or cheese, or bread!
    • No, Americans are never like that, because everybody else on earth wants to be like us.
  • Unless you're planning on staying in the country you get your final degree from, it's usually not a good idea. It will be much harder to get an academic job in the US with a foreign degree. If you're planning on just getting a masters and coming back to the states for the Ph.D., that can work, as can going to a foreign university and then getting a job in industry.

    All in all, it's probably not a great idea unless you're planning on moving out of the US permanently. Few people will have heard of where yo
    • you got it backwards (Score:5, Interesting)

      by hak1du ( 761835 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @09:50PM (#9158799) Journal
      Few people will have heard of where you studied, so they'll just assume the worst. If you can study here in the US, do so.

      For graduate school, it's the research lab where you do your work that matters, not the university. And there are lots of excellent research labs outside the US. Any US university that doesn't want to give you a job because they don't know a good foreign research lab where you did your Ph.D. is a university to be avoided.

      If you're planning on just getting a masters and coming back to the states for the Ph.D., that can work,

      You got it backwards. Getting a Masters outside the US is hard because requirements are often so different and because of language barriers. Getting a Ph.D. overseas is generally much easier because you will be in a research environment, people will tend to speak English in the research labs, and because the main requirement for a Ph.D. after you have finished your M.A. is doing a good thesis.

      The personality, reputation, connections, and quality of a Ph.D. advisor are far more important than whether they happen to be located in the US, France, or Japan.
      • I would like to reiterate hak1du's post. There are a lot of very bright people with very interesting thesis topics that didn't come from a well named school, yet are highly successful. Too many times people judge the reputation of the school by its name and not that of the program or the research. Probably one of the best programs for Bioinformatics is at Boston University-- not Yale, Columbia, or MIT (although all three have recently started Bioinformatics programs). Take an in depth look at the school
      • The prestigious (UK) universities often do not offer much support. My wife did her DPhil at a Oxford and got very little in the way of active support. A lot of these places just expect you to get on with it yourself, find your own funds etc.

        A high percentage of the Americans in the same situation did not complete their research degrees (e.g. Bill Clinton) as they were so used to being spoon-fed.

        I am doing a PhD in Australia at one of the two 'prestigious' universities here and have been pleased by the sup
    • by Txiasaeia ( 581598 ) on Friday May 14, 2004 @10:47PM (#9159071)
      First of all, do you have anything at all to do with academia? If you did (i.e. read papers/journals on a regular basis), you'd realise that not all research is done in the US. Depending on your field (mine is literature), it's even considered to be much more prestigious if your degree comes from a world-renowned institution such as Oxford or Cambridge.

      "Few people will have heard of where you studied, so they'll just assume the worst."

      Come again? Ever heard of Oxford or Cambridge? What about Strasbourg in France? Or McMasters or McGill in Canada?

      Yes, /. is US-centric, but stating that all degrees need to be earned in the US is somewhat ridiculous. Sorry to call you on this, but from your resume you've only earned a bachelor's degree - what gives you the credentials to determine whether carrying a foreign graduate degree is helpful or harmful?

      • by charlieo88 ( 658362 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @12:32AM (#9159449)
        Come again? Ever heard of Oxford or Cambridge? What about Strasbourg in France? Or McMasters or McGill in Canada?
        Well, a degree from Canada is not a big jump from a US degree, but lets not forget that the original poster speaks English and Japanese. This means Strasbourg is probably out. God only knows what foriegn language he'd have to learn to go to Oxford or Cambridge.
      • Yes. My wife is a graduate student and we both looked quite seriously in doing studies in Britain. I don't have credentials to "determine whether carrying a foreign graduate degree is helpful or harmful" and I didn't claim them. I'm just giving my opinion on the subject and trying to help out someone on slashdot who asked for the help of the slashdot readership.

        Of course all research is not done in the US. However, in general, most US faculty are not familiar with the strength and weaknesses of 99% of
      • Most people in the US of A don't have any idea of the strengths and weaknesses of programs of American Universities, much less foreign schools. At that's for an undergraduate education. At the graduate level things get even more complex - there a numerous mediocre, or perhaps just good graduate schools who may have a single excellent graduate program/school.
    • It will be much harder to get an academic job in the US with a foreign degree.

      This is nonsense. Others have pointed out Oxford and Cambridge, and there are dozens of excellent universities in other first world countries; but I can think of at least three people offhand (and perhaps several more if I think a bit) whom I know personally, who did their Ph.D. (and all earlier studies) in India but landed tenure-track academic positions in science departments in good universities in the U.S.

      As a recent New Y

    • by zhiwenchong ( 155773 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @12:03AM (#9159359)
      I am a McGill alumnus, so I am biased...

      There is a strong American presence at the undergraduate level (nearly 20% of the international student population) so by virtue of that, McGill is *somewhat* well-known in the northeastern U.S., at least among college-bound kids and their parents.

      See this article on McGill University [wikipedia.org] for an idea. Many of the alumni are household names in the U.S.

      Consider this also: public reputation is not the same as academic reputation.

      The McGill name may not be well-known to the U.S. public, but in academic circles it sparks recognition.

      Also, I am not sure if it really is much harder to get a job with a foreign degree than a U.S. one, because when I browse faculty pages at most U.S. schools, a good number of professors seem to have foreign graduate degrees (granted, these profs were not American to begin with, but....). Anecdotally, I know of many Canadian profs who teach at U.S. schools.

      Having said that, graduate funding at McGill is not as good as it ought to be, despite being a first tier research institution. McGill professors are the richest in the country yet only a limited portion of their funds are used to fund grad students (I wonder why).

      So let me point the submitter to some Canadian schools that will *guarantee* graduate funding to anyone who can get into some of their programs (doesn't matter if you're Canadian or not). As far as I can tell, the University of Toronto [utoronto.ca] funds every student accepted.... Info here [utoronto.ca]. University of Alberta [ualberta.ca], University of Western Ontario [www.uwo.ca], McMaster University [mcmaster.ca] funds all students accepted to selected programs.

      In my experience, U.S. schools often don't like to fund Masters students because M.S. programs are too short for them to extract any useful research out of the students (projects funded by research grants usually take years). They prefer to fund Ph.D. students.

      But in Canada, M.S. students have an almost equal chance of getting funding.

      Anyway, as some other poster said, there will be insular schools and outward-looking schools. The United States is a big and diverse country - one cannot really generalize.

      (P.S. but sometimes it is tempting... for instance, I was watching Letterman last night, and David Letterman was talking to a lady from Texas (this was on Stupid Pet Tricks). He asked her, "So if you drive west from Texas, you hit New Mexico, right?". She said yes. "What state is west of New Mexico?"... and she said "I don't know". And she's from Texas! I'm not American and even I know Arizona is west of New Mexico. But as I said, the U.S. is a big country... and there are all kinds out there.)

  • It seems that my school happens to have a pretty renowned Bioninf laboratory. Altough it's not my area, it seems that they have achieved some interesting developments in the genome project. If you want to check:

    www.lbi.ic.unicamp.br

    Even if you don't have interest in coming to Brazil, the lab's professors could point you towards other good schools "abroad", and how to dig up scholarships for those. Try and mail them.

    Personally, I find that moving from where you are, wherever that may be, is a nice experie
  • Don't? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by sakusha ( 441986 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @12:59AM (#9159545)
    My professors (native nihonjin) all said I should not do grad school in Japan. They said you just end up slaving away for the senior professors, who get all the credit for your work. They universally described it as inferior to US grad schools. Of course these same professors had no problems exploiting grad students for their own benefit while teaching at a US school.
  • Look into UK schools (Score:4, Informative)

    by RDPIII ( 586736 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @01:13AM (#9159593) Journal
    The first one or two years in a North American (US/Canadian) graduate program are often not very different from the last two years in an undergraduate program: lots of required courses, not much research. I'm not saying that's bad: it can be good if you don't know what you want to do exactly, if you're entering a new field and need to catch up quickly on the basics, etc. North American graduate programs are therefore often longer than elsewhere. If you know exactly what you want to do and don't want to spend much time taking classes, look into the top schools in the UK: Edinburgh, Cambridge, Sheffield, etc. Most UK graduate programs (they're called post-graduate programs there) are focused much more exclusively on a research topic, right from the beginning (as I said, that can be good or bad). If you're seriously considering going there, look for studentships on jobs.ac.uk or other pertinent message boards. A studentship will typically provide you with three years of funding, which is considered sufficient for finishing a PhD in the UK (don't know if it actually is sufficient), compared with the nominal five years in North America.
    • It's worth pointing out that in the US and Canada, students enter PhD programs right out of their Bachelor's. Well, in Canada sometimes they make you enter an MS program officially first, but then all the courses transfer to the PhD program when you start that. My impression was that in the UK you have to do an MSc/MPhil/etc. first regardless and that requires some coursework.

      So, I think when you add it up from Bachelor's on, it comes out to about the same. Of course, if you already have an Master's an

      • by cperciva ( 102828 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @09:15PM (#9164274) Homepage
        My impression was that in the UK you have to do an MSc/MPhil/etc. first regardless and that requires some coursework.

        At Oxford, students wanting to do a DPhil enter as "Probationary Research Students". If they've already done a MSc, they can transfer to DPhil status during their first term; otherwise, they spend a year taking courses, writing a "qualifying dissertation", and transfer to DPhil status at the end of their first year. In practice, many students holding Masters degrees decide to spend their first year taking courses anyway.

        The idea behind this process is that being granted the status of DPhil student means that you have demonstrated an ability to do research, and it's hard to judge that based on an undergraduate degree.

        In theory, someone could enter Oxford University as an undergraduate student, get their BA three years later, get accepted as a PRS, transfer to DPhil status, and finish their DPhil after a total of five years. In practice, most people who want to do research opt for a 4 year undergraduate MSc program and spend 4 years on their DPhil.
      • My impression was that in the UK you have to do an MSc/MPhil/etc. first regardless and that requires some coursework.

        You can move straight onto doing a PhD if you have a 2.1 or 1st class Honours degree. However, since many supervisors/departments have been burnt by students accepting a program and then leaving within three months, a MSc/MPhil is now the preferred qualification. A MSc/MPhil is also required to top up a 2.2 class Honours degree. A MSc can bec completed part-time in three-years or full-tim
      • My impression was that in the UK you have to do an MSc/MPhil/etc. first regardless and that requires some coursework.

        A lot of people seem to but it is not necessary. You can go from a BSc straight into a PhD, as long as the university believes you are good enough.

  • in Korea (Score:3, Insightful)

    by oathean ( 203467 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @02:54AM (#9159915)
    I'm in my first term as a CS PhD student at KAIST [kaist.edu] in Korea.

    I'm getting a Korean government scholarship, which is about 2 or 3 times the amount what my labmates get from their various sources of funding (private companies, government, others). The cost of living here is lower than the U.S. or Japan and while health insurance is not included in the scholarship, it is also relatively cheap in Korea.

    My Korean language skills aren't good yet, so I'm taking classes that are taught in English. Textbooks are all in English and of course all research papers are written in English. So while you can get by with just English, I feel like I miss out a lot by not being able to fully understand Colloquiums or discussion in the lab. But one of the reasons why I came to Korea was to improve my Korean, wanting to be more involved in the lab is good motivation.

    Culturally, there are many labs whose Professors are rather dictatorial. Indeed, students are expected to pay more respect to Professors than in the US and even do errands and such (like clean the Professor's office), but there are many Professors who like to teach/advise in a more collaborative manner. My Professor is one of them and his teaching style is one of the reasons I came to KAIST.

    So far my experience has been a positive one.

  • Internship (Score:2, Interesting)

    by larse ( 97184 )
    Not sure from your question if you'd like to do all of your grad studies abroad. If you are interested in a short (6-12 month) stint, doing an internship or your MS thesis internationally at a company or research lab is another option. Companies are usually better set up to handle international applicants. At least in our case, we semi-actively look for such students, and typically pay them enough to live off while they are visiting us.
    • Re:Internship (Score:2, Informative)

      by luferbu ( 703405 )
      Yes, for internships abroad is usually easier as companies tend to like a multicultural environment, a very good first step is to join AIESEC [aiesec.org], they have hundreds of internships abroad not only for undergrads but also for masters. Of course it is just a traineship no longer than year and a half, but it is pretty useful learning from other cultures and changing a bit the environment where you are living (and probably see that ouside there is much more than the US :). A good think is that doing a internship ab
  • Norway/scandinavia (Score:2, Interesting)

    by kunudo ( 773239 )
    Well, if you came over here, you'd probably not have to pay anything except the registration fee for each year (~$150), just like the rest of us. Everybody in scandinavia in general speaks english (not "everybody", *everybody*), so there wouldn't be a communtication problem, and you'd probably learn the language in a couple of months. Americans that are staying here are saying it hasn't been a problem. You sound more like you wanna go to Japan though, that's up to you.
  • Try Sweden (Score:3, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday May 15, 2004 @09:02AM (#9160581)
    I was born in Sweden but has studied at some other universities around the world (Switzerland, Japan) but I must say that I get more and more impressed with Swedish universities (especially the engineering faculties).

    Most beginner universities offer Master's programs given in English, for bioinformatics there is for instance this
    one [chalmers.se].

    By law higher education is free of charge in Sweden (!), ie no tuition fees (this applies to foreigners as well). For foreign student's I think there are various scholarship to cover living expenses as well.

    Finland might be another good option, there are definately some world class universities overthere.
    • Re:Try Sweden (Score:3, Informative)

      by Dr. Cody ( 554864 )
      I was born in Sweden but has studied at some other universities around the world (Switzerland, Japan) but I must say that I get more and more impressed with Swedish universities (especially the engineering faculties).

      By law higher education is free of charge in Sweden (!), ie no tuition fees (this applies to foreigners as well). For foreign student's I think there are various scholarship to cover living expenses as well.

      Finland might be another good option, there are definately some world class universiti
      • Thanks for the info, I met some very nice Swedish people in Japan(worked at my lab), they taught me some Swedish, though nothing I would ever want to say to a professor :P
        "Sorry my thesis didn't get done, I was too pre-occupied with knulla" ;)
  • It's a mixed bag (Score:5, Informative)

    by doktor-hladnjak ( 650513 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @01:27PM (#9162012)
    I'm an American and did a BA in Computer Science and German at Berkeley, then completed an MS program in Germany. I was also offered to do a PhD in Germany, but in the end decided to return to the US instead, mostly for personal reasons. In the end, I couldn't imagine living in this city (Saarbruecken) for another 3 or 4 years and I got tired of only being able to afford to see my family (in California) once a year. Also, being a foreign student really places you on the outside of things not just socially, but also with regard to the dynamic of a research group. After the novelty wears off, you get tired of having to struggle with common things in a foreign system like getting your phone disconnected or filing a tax return.

    Perhaps the biggest reason though, was that I really didn't plan to spend the rest of my life in Europe, so it made more sense to complete my degree in North America. The longer you spend abroad, the harder it becomes both logistically (more stuff) and socially (all your friends here vs. all your friends and family at home) to return.

    Currently, in Germany there is a movement (pushed by some EU agreements I think) to convert the structure of the education system to match the British model. Traditionally, you earn a Diplom in Computer Science, which is equivalent to an MS. More and more schools are changing to a BS/MS track though, which will make things easier for foreign students to study in Germany and vice-versa. Unfortunately, most schools are still doing Diplom programs, but if you look around you can find MS programs around.

    Simultaneously, a lot of departments have started offering courses in English (especially CS departments) in order to draw foreign students. Since hardly anybody learns German in school, it's very hard for German profs to get great foreign grad students like their counterparts based in English speaking countries. You could certainly complete the MS where I did (in Saarbruecken) without knowing any German and you'd still have a good number of courses to choose from. At some other places though, I've heard cases where students would need to take say 4 courses and there are only 4 offered in English, so you have to take those specific ones.

    One big downside to doing an MS at a German university though, is that it's hard to get any financial aid. Because the MS has replaced the Diplom (which is/was the first degree earned), MS students are still viewed and treated as undergrads in almost every way. However, for foreign students, there are scholarships available, but obviously not everybody can actually get one. The biggest source is from DAAD [www.daad.de], which I believe is funded by the German government. A couple of universities also have some scholarships as well, but I think these are few and far between. I was lucky to get one from the Max Planck Institute [mpi-sb.mpg.de] (via the IMPRS [imprs-cs.de]) located in Saarbruecken where I studied. It paid 715EUR/month, which is plenty to live on, since the cost of living is relatively low and you only need to pay around 100EUR in fees per semester.

    Here, there are a lot of jobs on campus usually doing various programming tasks for a research group. Foreign students are allowed to work these jobs, but obviously there's no guarantee that you'll find a job for which you have the necessary skills.

    For PhD students, there is obviously more funding available, but it really depends on your advisor's funding situation. Unlike in the US, where many, many profs have external funding from DOD, NSF, DOE, etc. in Europe there's much more of a reliance on money coming directly through the university. Hence, it seems to me that there are a lot of profs who cannot fund their students particularly well. However, those that do have lots of funding, pay their students quite well. After taking into account cost of living, the compensation is better here, but not by a huge margin.

    As actual instruction goes,

    • Thanks for this insightful piece.

      At one point I was preparing to go to Germany for further studies (Uni-Erlangen), so I know a little bit about the German education system. (plus my brother's doing his Diplom there right now)

      I have to say this: For a long time, I've thought German education was superior to anything we had in North America, but in the course of my interactions with German exchange students over the past few years, I've been told that that notion is quite outdated. Furthermore, many Eastern
      • Thanks for this insightful piece.

        Sure, no problem.

        I have to say this: For a long time, I've thought German education was superior to anything we had in North America, but in the course of my interactions with German exchange students over the past few years, I've been told that that notion is quite outdated. Furthermore, many Eastern Europeans and Russians tell me that their science and math education is much more rigorous than what they have in Germany (and has always been).

        Ya, it's actually sorta sa

  • Similar Discussion (Score:3, Informative)

    by CHaN_316 ( 696929 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @02:42PM (#9162391)
    Here's a somewhat similiar question [slashdot.org] that someone asked on slashdot before. Could be helpful.
  • by aquarian ( 134728 ) on Saturday May 15, 2004 @08:26PM (#9164069)
    Unless you're already rich, you have to consider the costs of graduate education. And the cost of living while attending school is usually a bigger factor than tuition and fees, unless you're going to MIT or Harvard. Some countries have an extremely high cost of living. I certainly wouldn't want to add the cost of a few years' living in London or Tokyo to my personal debt pile. Going to Canada may be cheaper than the US, and some otherwise expensive countries like Germany or France may actually have cheap living for students. But most countries you'd want to study in are going to be more expensive to live in than the US. Think about it.
  • Netherlands maybe? (Score:3, Informative)

    by mad27 ( 630687 ) on Sunday May 16, 2004 @05:12AM (#9165754)
    Here in the Netherlands PhD students are paid a net salary between 1500 and 2000 EUR net per month. Also, everybody speaks (some form of) english; it is the lingua franca of research here. For a list of universities see this list [campusprogram.com]
  • I've got a friend with an opportunity to work at NCTU [nctu.edu.tw] in Hsin-chu, Taiwan, as a tenure-track faculty member. What about the other side of the equation. How is life as a faculty member outside of the United States? And has someone who's worked in Taiwan (Taipei or Hsinchu) got any information about it?
  • Many more foreign students do grad work in the US than vice-versa.

    That's because the US pays grad students well, by international standards. There's a standard set-up for PhD students in the US whereby you get a stipend to be a teaching assistant or (less commonly) research assistant, and it covers your fees (and almost enough to live on, too).

    So why does the US pay grad students? Well...

    Historically a huge number of americans go to university as undergrads compared to most other countries (though othe
  • I am doing my Ph.D. in Japan. However I have lived here for 21 years and have a Japanese wife. In the past year though some things in Japan have taken change for the worst. Even for the academic world. The worst among them; The Japanese government is now starting to blame directly all foreigners for job losses, even though foreigners make up only 0.2 percent of the entire population. The Japanese government has set up a website that asks for all Japanese to report the activities of foreigners in Japan

You know, the difference between this company and the Titanic is that the Titanic had paying customers.

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