Computer Job w/ No Computer Degree? 160
Peterus7 asks: "I posted here a few years back, complaining that I couldn't code worth beans, but I wanted to get into computer science. Well, I'm back- with a psychology degree. However, I hear there's still hope since a lot of system admins and the like have liberal arts degrees. In the mean time, I've been working as a Macintosh digital media tutor, freelance tech support, and an assistant system admin at the campus library. Now that I've graduated, I want to find a job that will accept someone who knows a fair amount about computers, but is pretty much self-taught. Where should I start? Are there any classes I should take?"
I did the same thing (Score:2, Informative)
All it really takes is a foot in the door...once you have that it's a matter of working inside the company where you have something to offer. If it's a good company then your skill
Re:I did the same thing (Score:2)
I've got an honours BA in English; I've been working as a technical writer for computer companies for the past, oh, fifteen years. I've worked with technical writers that have Physics degrees, random community college certificates, etc.
With a Psychology degree, you could get into user-interface design or usability testing, no problem.
Re:I did the same thing (Score:2)
Re:I did the same thing (Score:4, Interesting)
Sure There Is! (Score:5, Funny)
The manager was regarded as one of the best in the department. Major.
There's hope for you yet.
Re:Sure There Is! (Score:4, Insightful)
then again when you get a mediocre manager who just knows management you end up with a perfect storm of suck.
Re:Sure There Is! (Score:2)
group who differ on the technological solutions to
your problems. If you dont know enough to apply a laugh
test, how will you decide between these?
I've seen it. I've been there, I wanted to solve problems,
the other guy wanted to work with cool technologies.
Managers sided with the other guy. They
had no way to know who was correct, because they
didnt have any appreciation for the issues. They
thought the other guy and I were just having a pissing
contest.
Re:Sure There Is! (Score:2)
Thank you for pointing that out.
Seriously, though, yes, in this case, the manager
was not competent enough to see what was going on.
The other side of the arguement designed a system
that was moving large amounts of data around as
XML. Supposed to be able to store and forward
this data. Could only keep about 10 or so days
of this data, several orders of magnatude off from
what was needed. Lets not store changes as differences,
no, lets keep everythin
Re:Sure There Is! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Sure There Is! (Score:2)
And we liked it!
Confounded youngsters! Get off my lawn!
And turn down the radio! Get a hair cut!
Re:Sure There Is! (Score:2)
Re:Sure There Is! (Score:2)
BTW I hate the term "software engineer", but that's another rant.
Re:Sure There Is! (Score:2)
In contrast, many of the average to below average ppl were
Re:Sure There Is! (Score:4, Insightful)
The best IT project manager, bare none, I had the pleasure of working with was indeed unable to program anything, save, perhaps, his VCR. That didn't stop him from having an amazing grasp on the projects; his projects always were, on time and on budget. Yes, I do mean always, and, yes, it could well be it's also because he knew how to select his projects.
Also, although being the sole non-programmer - except for the accounting and HR people - in the last company I worked for - largish outfit, most of you have heard of - I was sought after to help debug Java and SQL programming issues. Being a "programming moron" helped
Not sysadmin but lots of other stuff... (Score:4, Insightful)
Being self-taught really has nothing to do with it. There are people that never took a single class but were able to pick up programming form a few simple tutorials and a language reference. Likewise, some people take the Intro to Programming class several times and simply fail to ever grasp the abstract nature of code. A computer science degree is valuable because of the ideas it exposes you to, and because employers may value it, but it doesn't really say much about your ability as a computer professional.
My advice would be to look for a job centered around specific applications. Something concrete with good documentation that you learn to perfection. Another possibility is building or repairing computers. It sounds like you've already been doing quite a bit, so you probably have an idea of what you enjoyed and what you didn't. The next step is to simply apply for some jobs and see what pans out.
Re:Not sysadmin but lots of other stuff... (Score:3, Interesting)
One of my friends loves using computers and wants to get a "computer job", but the Comp Sci classes he's tried to sign up for have Math pre-reqs and he's lousy at that. "Do you really have to do a lo
Re:Not sysadmin but lots of other stuff... (Score:2)
In general, that's why Computer Science [algonquincollege.com] was seperated from Computer Programming [algonquincollege.com]. While math is a prerequisite for both courses, the latter puts much less focus on math by only teaching the 'basics'.
You will need to know math at the most basic level, even if you don't use it in day-to-day programs. While advanced math won't be necessary f
Re:Not sysadmin but lots of other stuff... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Not sysadmin but lots of other stuff... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not sysadmin but lots of other stuff... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Not sysadmin but lots of other stuff... (Score:2)
My first foot in the door was working for the school district in my hometown (I was well-known among the teachers for my computer skills)
The position I'm in now was recommended by a then employee of the company who also happens to be my wife's cousin.
Neither of thes
Re:Not sysadmin but lots of other stuff... (Score:2)
Whatever you wish... (Score:2)
But I think that with a psychology background you can go into stuff like:
- user/computer interaction - UI design, translations, documentation, implementation, quality control etc.
- new media (i.e. Internet) marketing
I think these are quite interesting areas. But of course you can do anything you wish and feel like doing.
There's Hope! (Score:3, Informative)
I started a CS degree and quit about 9 credit hours into it. I suck at math, but I've been programming since I was 12. I've had about 4 jobs doing computer/sysadmin work (two of them at large colleges), have programmed freelance for some time, and I'm now writing a book for Manning Publications on programming (along with a self-published book also).
All while getting a degree in Theology. :)
Don't fret about the degree; you just need the skills and mindset to do it.
Re:There's Hope! (Score:1)
I never completed *any* post-secondary education, and to be honest, never actually completed highschool.
I started my career in computing in the late 1970s, at the tender age of 16. My lack of any paper credentials didn't seem to slow me down any. I was a "senior member of scientifc staff" at a major high-tech R&D company by the time I was in my late 20s. But I had a strong aptitude for programming and systems design. Solving technical problems, root-cause analysis, leading technical projec
Websites (Score:4, Insightful)
Want to design web sites? You won't believe how many artists and companies want web sites. Make some. Do them for friends and relatives. Make them nice, make them do neat things. Now you've got a portfolio. Look for companies wanting web sites and sell yourself. Make a business out of it.
If you work for yourself (web sites, tech support, whatever) then the hiring manager won't care you don't have a degree. Work your way up and prove you can do what you say and you can get jobs.
Re:Websites (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Websites (Score:2)
I agree, but he asked for something he could do, and he didn't specify programming.
Getting a programming job without the degree is going to be a TON harder.
Re:Websites (Score:2)
Re:Websites (Score:2)
Want to design web sites? You won't believe how many artists and companies want web sites.
I've thought about this myself. I've taken classes in and was working on a degree in web programming, though I wanted to go into something more, perhaps CE or IT. However I'm also into photography and some of the photography students at the college I was going to were thinking about establishing an online presence or portfolio. So I was thinking maybe I could develop photography websites both for myself and for o
Re:Websites (Score:2)
Careful (Score:1)
This goes for all software, knowing how to do it from picking around on tutorials on the internet is going to get the job done, but not in the same way as somebody who has got the Exchange certification. My advice to you is to go to your local Microsoft certifier and get some basic sysadmin certification at the v
Re:Careful (Score:2)
(of course, that's because they primarily use UNIX and Linux in academia...)
No Trolls here (Score:2)
Some of my co-workers have degrees in East-Asian Studies, Chemical Engineering and Urban Studies. I'll agree that a Comp Sci gives you a head start on topics like algorithms and data structures, but it hardly has a monopoly on Skill Acquisitio
Networking (Score:4, Insightful)
You're going to have to meet people and get yourself promoted almost exclusively by word of mouth. Even then it's going to be an uphill battle, because there's always going to be somebody more qualified who's going to get one of the precious interview slots before you. Then you have to be absolutely sure you know what you're doing in the interview, because while somebody who has experience or other qualifications that they can point to may be granted a little bit of slack if they can't do something right off the top of their head (as long as they know, procedurally, what's going on), without anything like that, you have nothing to point to other than your word that you actually do have some kind of background in it.
It's not impossible by any means, but you have it a lot harder than anybody else out there, and you're probably going to be looking for a long time before you find that job you want. And when you do, you're likely going to be hired on the recomendation of one of the people you know in one of your placeholder jobs.
Don't know how to say this (Score:2)
Not much hope here, I'm afraid. Why not try canine psychology [wikipedia.org], instead?
Honestly though, I don't know. I'm actually in a similar position: I'm a year away from a non-CS degree, but I'd like my future work to be computer-related. I doubt tech support is something you're exited about, I myself certainly am not. I think it would be possible to get a job as an entry level programmer (I have experience in several languages, dunno about you), but getting beyond the code monkey status w
Re:Don't know how to say this (Score:2)
I'm doing the same thing. (Score:1)
I'm doing the same thing, except without a college degree of any sort.
I started as Tech Support for a small software company, who plucked me out of the retail/admin assistant ether, and I got that because I put together a resume they really liked with my writing skills. (First hobby is writing, computers is my second). I highlighted my enthusiasm for computers, presented myself in a groovy way, and got hired. Once I was in, the small company environment forced me to wear several hats and pick up new thin
Re:I'm doing the same thing. (Score:2)
Certificates are just pieces of paper (Score:2)
Many managers consider them so much toilet paper. I know I do. The reason behind that is that there are so many "certificate mills" around, which promise to teach you to pass the certificates, but end up not teaching you the basic knowledge the certificates are realing testing for.
I've heard this but I've also heard the opposite. I've been in schooling working on an AAAS, or whatever, degree in web programming as a first step. However because I found it difficult to retain what I learned in Java I duri
Re:Certificates are just pieces of paper (Score:2)
Look for the college being regionally accredited. If it says something like accreditted by the state of xx, then it is garbage. Also, read this page: http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html [state.or.us] This page is the state of Oregon tracking down which schools are valid and which
Re:Certificates are just pieces of paper (Score:2)
Look for the college being regionally accredited. If it says something like accreditted by the state of xx, then it is garbage. Also, read this page: http://www.osac.state.or.us/oda/unaccredited.html [state.or.us] [state.or.us] This page is the state of Oregon tracking down which schools are valid and which are crap. A really great reference.
Well my college is a state college. I find it hard learning some subjects the way a certain professors teach and retaining what I learned between long breaks. What I'm intereste
No big deal (Score:3, Informative)
Ever since, I worked in IT, my experience being more meaningful than degrees.
Re:No big deal (Score:2)
Yeah, I got hired by a retail chain to do stuff for them with Lotus 1-2-3 and dBASE when I was still in college 22 years ago. But that was a lot easier to get hired for back then (when micros were new and nobody in DP knew anything about them) than it is today.
A Tech School (Score:3, Informative)
Rule Number One... (Score:5, Informative)
(Rule number two is that you don't want to work anywhere that strictly requires it)
I have a Liberals Arts degree and I'm a completely self-taught, working Java developer. The only thing I did do to help my job search was get a Sun Certified Java Programmer certification [sun.com]. Almost no experienced developers give any merit to the thing, but during my job search it was useful to "prove" to the skeptical that I really do know Java.
Re:Rule Number One... (Score:2)
LOL...at my shop, one of our Senior Engineers doesn't even have a college degree.
Re:Rule Number One... (Score:2)
LOL...at my shop, one of our Senior Engineers doesn't even have a college degree.
That doesn't mean he doesn't understand the basic mathematics or problem-solving that the degree requires.
I know plenty of people who do not have degrees in Computer S
Re:Rule Number One... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Rule Number One... (Score:2)
Assuming they can't pick up a book and learn it yourself [mit.edu] (imagine that!) - which he did, by the way.
Also, their skill portability is very limited so getting laid off would likely be a bigger blow than if they had a better grounding in the maths.
I'm curious - do you have a specific anecdote to back up this generalization? Because my experience has been that employers place greater weight on hard bus
Re:Rule Number One... (Score:2)
Re:Rule Number One... (Score:2)
This person hasn't. My experience in the work place is that self-taught programmers miss out in the area of applied math rather badly. For example they are almost always surprised by rounding errors in floating point calculations and do logical tests for equality of floating point numbers. They don't understand why some Java collections have larger memory requirements than others and run into trouble because
Writing ability (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Writing ability (Score:2)
What about a minor? (Score:2)
If you're looking to put your psychology degree to work, but still want to deal with computers, you might want to look into something like computer security. For all the hacking attempts made daily, the best way to get access to a machine is through social engineering. You could study how
Re:What about a minor? Forget Security... AI (Score:2)
It depends on how well you sell yourself (Score:4, Interesting)
Standard headhunters and sites like Monster.com and CareerBuilder.com proved to be utterly useless and every position I've held since entering the professional workforce has been a referral from a close friend or colleague that got me an in with the company and allowed me to bypass conventional hiring channels. This is the most important thing to remember -- managers hire internally first, take referrals second, and then read external resumes; if another employee highly recommends you then you'll be first in line in the interview process.
Keep track of every professional contact you've ever made. I have two or three hundred page binders to keep business cards in chronological order of each professional contact I've made. Each page holds 16 cards and I write details of the conversation or relationship with each person on the back of each card. My brain works on mnemonics so scanning/inputting each contact's info doesn't work for me; I remember each contact based on where in each binder their business card is and which business cards surround it on the page. So I can say, "yeah, that security guy I met in the bar at PumpCon 1996 was red and was in the binder right after the blue graphic designer's card, I think I'll give him a call".
So yeah, don't know if this braindump is any help to you, but there is hope out there for degreeless geeks.
Re:It depends on how well you sell yourself (Score:2)
a) Being fscking good, and at least, better than the average Comp Sci guy you are competing against.
b) Find ways to bypass HR and get directly to the technical guys who are doing the selection.
HR people can't grok the idea of someone who has not a CS degree being a good software engineer. And they are not to blame.
Re:It depends on how well you sell yourself (Score:2)
Re:It depends on how well you sell yourself (Score:2)
To quote the OP..
Chronological order is a time based ordering of them.
place all contacts in your gmail account, that way its 100% accessible even if your house burns
down or you loose your folder in a taxi.
Every picture may be worth a thousand words, but a thousand words takes fifteen minutes to type.
(IE, Never confuse data entry with data archival.)
Simply scanning each binder page, rolling it into a mu
degree not needed (Score:3, Interesting)
The few companies that have turned me away because of it were companies you've never heard of because they were small and didn't survive long enough to get big.
I have a social studies degree (Score:3, Interesting)
Along the way I've tried picking up programming - I'm learning, but its a long and slow process. I'm sure actual classes in school would help quite a bit.
Careers. (Score:1, Informative)
Careers for Computer Buffs and Other Technological Types, 3rd edition [amazon.com]
Computer Science (Score:1)
Re:Computer Science (Score:2)
Waste of money (Score:1, Interesting)
No degree at all here, and doing fine. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:No degree at all here, and doing fine. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:No degree at all here, and doing fine. (Score:2)
Re:No degree at all here, and doing fine. (Score:2)
Human Factors (Score:2)
The program at New Mexico Tech is pretty good.
Alternate job-learning (Score:2)
You may want to follow the path I am borrowing.
After I graduated, I spend almost a year studying CS in college, and dropped. I didn't know what to do so I looked for crappy jobs, and eventually I heard about a french thing call a professionalisation contract.
The principle is the following, during 18 months, you spend one week a month at some kind of school (although it's for adults) studying system administration and the rest of the time you learn while working as a sysadmin in an enterprise, and you're pai
what? (Score:2)
Re:what? (Score:2)
Sure. (Score:2)
Start at the beginning (Score:2)
It depends on exactly what you want to do. (Score:2)
Don't get me wrong, a degree doesn't hurt, but if a company is looking for someone to deal with Redhat, VMWare, Microsoft, or any other specific software solution they'r
Sysadmins Need to Know How to Code (Score:3, Insightful)
So, I have no credentials to speak of, other than a self built business, mostly consulting work, and a load of time spent learning anything that sparked my interest, and certifcations are a waste of money IMHO. But I can code, a good admin has to be able to write, read, and alter code. A good admin has to be able to make programs accross the network work together, and shoe horn stuff together when need be, all while keeping the whole thing secure and stable. You might find yourself reading C one day, figureing out why the billing system suspends accounts for 24 hours after successfully proccessing credit cards, if the credit card was ran on the last day before the account would have gone deliquent(true story), and the nexy day, you are manually patching a hacked phpBB because the owner customized so much of it that you can't just upgrade their forum....
I tend to ramble, but my point is, you won't make it very high up the ladder in the CS/CE world without the ability to code, it is a fundemental skill.
Re:Sysadmins Need to Know How to Code (Score:2)
Experience Helps (Score:3, Insightful)
I also have over 6 years of experience, working my way up the chain of tech support. I'm now a server admin and general troubleshooter for an organization that supports over 3000 desktops, 150 servers from Vancouver to Angola, with 9 techs.
I didn't get the job for my education, I got it for my experience. The 4 years that I put in while most people were in college have earned me a larger pay increase on average then the techs I know(both in and out of my organization) have earned from 4 years in college.
I know someone is going to say, it will matter in the future - years down the road they will make more then me. But 6 years ago, I was told that after 4 years I would be making less. Don't buy it just because they say so.
Besides, the work is rewarding and I enjoy it, so I don't really care at this point.
Say hello to Wage Disparity (Score:2)
Most of the larger corporations will have salary bands, and where you end up (i.e., the gross salary they offer) is a function of variables such as the type of job, years experience, difficulty recruiting and EDUCATION.
So at a larger corporation, you may end up at the lower end of a salary band, doing the same job (and perhaps better work) as your peers but for less pay. It's just the way bigger companies are run; standardised as much as possible across the board.
Smaller compa
Why not work for yourself? (Score:2)
Most employers have a brick wall when it comes to self-taught people, so why play them at their own game? Why
I did it. (Score:3, Informative)
If your goal is to get into development or some other more specialized area, then the barrier to entry is much higher. You might want to consider working on some OSS pojects to build experience and get your name out there. What I have found in life is that degrees and certs really only demonstrate a basic level of training and competence. Once you have the degree/cert, you still are fairly useless until you have accumulated some experience working in the real world. Some people are able to accumulate the experience without the degree, and as long as they can get past pre-screening for a job (where HR usually weeds out people who don't meet the paper requirements) then they can usually do quite well. That's why consulting companies are a good place to work, as their customers rarely ask to see anything other than experience. But if you have neither experience nor a degree/certs, prepare to start at the bottom and work your way up. Usually it's faster just to get the degree.
Not likely (Score:2)
I've *got* a BS in CIS, and my resume shows jobs back to '89 (I leave out the stuff before that, because it wasn't in Unix), and I've been looking for six months. "Oh, sorry, you don't have C+-script in Aunt, Commix, under Frunix 12.4, and 5 years of Orabase SQLiposuction (released four years ago), we've got no interest in you."
mark, software develper, Unix/Linux sysadmin, software configuration/build/release management"
Re:Not likely (Score:2)
MA Phil got job in Uni's Payroll Dep't (Score:2)
in the Subj job. Being near home (& contacts) made it seem
OK, even if the job involved a good bit of "DP" work.
It can still be who yhou know as much as what, I guess...
So, maybe "network, network, network" is the best advice.
(This guy used to be involved in local cultural exhibits,
after doing informal, on-the-spot investigative research;
maybe his generalist nature also helped him land this job)
Or maybe the logic was: Hey, if you can understand Ph
Getting in on the ground floor worked for me (Score:2)
Even before this job, my lack of a degree never hurt me.
When you say you can't code... (Score:2)
Programming without CS Degree (Score:2)
If you don't have the right degree or don't have one the
Not going to be popular, but... (Score:2)
None of these trends have really started whole-hog yet, and they may never if technology workers don't grow up.
There's a reason ROI is crap in computers -- computer "professionals" typically aren't as professional as they'd like you to believe, until they have pretty high-level jobs at very large organizations. Small companies
Re:Not going to be popular, but... (Score:2)
Re:Not going to be popular, but... (Score:2)
I have a BFA (Score:2)
Problematic but not Impossible (Score:2)
In my job, I hire people from time to time. When scanning dozens of resumes to find the dozen or so I will read carefully, no degree is almost a disqualifier. Why? Well mostly we hire young
Me == No Degree + IT Career. (Score:2)
While one does not need a degree to do an IT job, a degree helps one get the job. Remember, chances are your resume' is going to be seen by HR first. HR generally makes out the job descriptions. If the job descriptio
I also have a BA in "People Science"... (Score:2)
I got into a company doing entry level GIS mapping stuff as an analyst, and gradually taught myself Perl until I was writing scripts that made my job easier. The right people noticed and now my job is writing Perl scripts for the entire project. I also am getting paid a decent salary because I had a BACHELORS DEGREE period. However I'm sti
Trust me... (Score:2)
HALP!
Re:I seem to remember (Score:2)
Re:I seem to remember (Score:2)
Um, Michael Dell "did OK" by going starting his own business and going into computer marketing and sales. While I have no doubt that he was a competent self-taught hardware tech back (I bought one of his "PC's Limited, Turbo XT" boxes around the same time he stopped needing a fake ID to buy beer, which may even have some of his finger prints on it), his success was based on bizness skillz, not his value to employers as a technology professional.
Re:I seem to remember (Score:2)