Home Generators (or How DTE Energy Ruined My Holidays) 695
We are among the thousands without power in the northeast. Day four actually, and we've decided to look into generators so that next year's New Year's doesn't involve fears of frozen pipes bursting and hypothermic babies and cats. At the very least we just need enough juice to run the furnace blower, but if we're going to lay down the cash I'd like to know what it would take to get a little more power ... like enough to run a fridge, router, laptop and lightbulb. I know nothing about this sort of thing, but figure there are more than a few experts out there so I call out to the wisdom of the mob. What am I looking for? How difficult is the wiring? What will it cost me? On the extreme edge, what would it take to get off the grid entirely? (And on a side note, thanks to DTE Energy for telling us we had power when we didn't, for losing the ticket for our neighborhood, for telling us it would be back every single day when it wasn't, and for the helpful DTE representative who warned us that our pipes might burst. Thanks.)
tips (Score:4, Informative)
At a minimum, you need:
Even though a furnace doesn't pull a lot when running, at the time that the blower starts up, there can be a VERY large startup current. The fridge the same, to a lesser extent.
You can get a lot fancier than this, but this will function perfectly as long as you are there to do the switching soon enough after power fails that your building doesn't get too close to pipe-freeze (I wouldn't want to go below 40 degrees f, pipes are often in walls that are cooler than the rest of the house.)
If that won't do, you're looking at an auto-start system with an auto-generator switchover, and the only thing I can tell you about that is prepare your wallet for deep excavation.
Re:tips (Score:5, Informative)
No way man - you don't need anything nearly that complicated. Since you're just covering an occasional power outage, you don't need anything permanent. Just put the generator outdoors, and run a long extension cord (or a few) inside.
Make sure the generator is in a locked location, or at least chained down. They have a tendency to sprout legs during emergencies.
If you want something permanently in place, you need an electrician, and no less. Because you need a huge On-Off-On lever switch to ensure you never attempt to power the house from both the generator and grid simultaneously.
Re:tips (Score:5, Interesting)
Make sure the generator is in a locked location, or at least chained down. They have a tendency to sprout legs during emergencies."
I 100% agree! That's how most everyone along the coast does it durning hurricane season when they hit and take power out here. I was at a friends house during Gustav near Baton Rouge...and he had one generator we did fine on. I'm not sure the size, but, will try to ask and come back with an answer.
But, with this one generator...we kept a window unit AC going (hot and muggy is our problem during that time of year)...we could run his 50" LCD flatpanel tv...along with DVD and stereo for entertainment...we'd also plug in cell phones, charge computers...etc. I know we had to unplug something occasionally to plug the fridge(s) and chest freezer in, to keep food good, but, over all it worked well.
The things get pretty darned LOUD tho....but, I've heard that the Honda ones...at a premium price, and very, very quiet. Just make sure to have plenty of gasoline stocked up, and oil. We actually ran through our gas supply...and built a little dc pump out of a fuel pump, hooked to a hose and run off a car battery...to siphon gas out of their large Surburban SUV. Now..I am not a fan of SUV's....but, the thing did serve well as a tanker truck for quite a number of days. After the gas stations got back online, and actually got gas delivered to them...we filled up all our tanks...and the SUV tanks to brimming....and had plenty to last us till the electricity came back on.
Thank goodness for gas to cook on, as well as for the water heater....and we also used the propane gas grill outside s few times too....kinda turned into a fun camping trip with them!
Bury the noise (Score:3, Informative)
... The things get pretty darned LOUD tho....but, I've heard that the Honda ones...at a premium price, and very, very quiet....
If you put the generator in a hole in the yard, you'll have a night-and-day difference in noise levels. Just make sure that it is well-drained and set up so that no one will fall into it. Under the deck or patio is often good.
Re:Bury the noise (Score:4, Informative)
Rather than digging down, you can build up a small hill for the same effect.
I bought two generators in the last few years. One was a Coleman 5500 watt, and one was a generic Chinese made 5500 watt from Walmart.
I put the Coleman in my RV, as a temporary power source for air conditioning for a drive. Bad idea. It was so loud, even though the RV is 40' long, I couldn't talk over the sound of it. Driving, it sounded like a Harley was parked beside me. That lasted for about .. umm .. 5 miles. :)
The Chinese one had what looks like a small car muffler on it. It's only about half as loud.
Besides the noise level is the reliability of the generators. Both sat for the same period, about a year. Neither one would start. The Chinese generator's spark plug was oil fouled. I cleaned it, and it started right up. The Coleman has some mystery carburetor problem. It still won't start. I suspect even after cleaning the carb, I must have not gotten all the passages cleared.
But, back to your idea... A hole will get full of water, bugs, or whatever. It may get filled by small children falling into it accidentally. A built up hole would be a better choice. Pick your spot, put down a firm foundation for the generator (a few bricks in the ground would do), put together sides around it with say lattice and screen. A few feet of 2" PVC at the bottom would be a good idea to get rid of any rain water that soaks in. Backfill dirt around it to make a small hill. A piece of plywood (preferably secured somehow) would be a good idea to keep things from falling in when you don't want them to (again, kids, water, stray animals, etc). It would be a good idea to be able to secure it open, yet covered. so if it's raining or snowing (depending on your environment), that won't get all over your nice generator that you've protected so well.
It'll also make for a nice bunker when the revolution comes to your neighborhood. :) Just watch out for incendiary rounds near the fuel tank. Well, for that matter, near yourself too. :)
You all are making this too hard (Score:5, Interesting)
Everyone seems to have their own method of doing this. It seems to me it's a rather simple process:
1) Go to Home Depot store or website.
2) Plunk down cash (or credit/debit card) for THIS [homedepot.com] plus installation costs.
3) Enjoy whole house LP or NG powered emergency backup power.
See? That wasn't so hard now, was it? And nobody got electrocuted in the process either.
(yeah, yeah, I skipped the stupid ??? -> Profit! meme. So sue me.)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Now that's what I'm talking about! On my wishlist for next Christmas :)
Re:You all are ... - ELECTROCUTION SAFETY WARNING (Score:5, Informative)
CAUTION: YOU MAY KILL SOMEONE IF YOU DO NOT TURN YOUR HOUSE'S MAIN BREAKERS TO OFF!
* If you leave the Main Breakers ON you will backfeed power to the entire neighborhood, and the power workers think the lines are dead. Very bad.
* Technically, you need an electrician to wire a breaker/cut-off switch to the generator. In this manner when you switch the generator connection to ON you also switch the Main Breakers to OFF. Expensive, but safe and complies with NEC.
* Most people just use a male to male plug, plug one end into the generator, and the other into some house outlet. If you turn the Main Breakers OFF ~BEFORE~ you do this, it is possible to get power to everything in your house, limited by the breaker capacity and the power generation capacity, and not feed the neighborhood. The relative safety of this is up to others to argue.
* IF THIS MAKES NO SENSE TO YOU, SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP. Or at least a neighbor with a subscription to Popular Electronics. Your local linemen will thank you!
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
* Most people just use a male to male plug, ...
Those of us with for-real electrical backgrounds call such a contrivance a death trap.
What, you mean running two 12ga male-male cords to two outlets (to feed both phases) is a hazard? What's wrong with feeding a 100amp panel over 100 feet of 14ga 40's-era rag wire? (snort)
Re:You all are making this too hard (Score:4, Informative)
It depends on what tank you put with it. :) I don't see a spec for the tank on either the Home Depot site, nor the Guardian site. It does indicate that it runs on LP or natural gas. I would guess the assumption is that you can use it with your local supply, assuming you're in an area that you can get gas.
I have a neighbor a few miles away that has natural gas at his house. Now, I don't know if that's affected if the power to the area goes out.
The indicated fuel consumption at full load is:
Natural Gas - 139 cubic feet/hr
LP - 68 cubic feet/hr (1.68 gal/hr)
A 20 pound tank, like you'd use for your BBQ, is approximately 4.1 gallons, or about 2.4 hours.
A 250 gallon tank would last you for about 6 days.
A 500 gallon tank would last you for about 12 days.
According to These reports [dslreports.com] you'll be paying about $3 to $4 per gallon. This will vary by your location, current market value, etc, etc. If you were to need to run a week on propane, because of ... well, whatever ... It will consume approximately 280 gallons of fuel, and cost you pretty close to $1,000.
Now, if you fill the tank once, and only need a few hours here and there, then it's not a big deal. Just have it topped off every so often. How important is your power to you though? Can you get away without a computer, and camping around the fireplace? It's probably cheaper. :) The kids will make noise without the TV and PS3/Xbox360/GameThing(tm). Can you survive? Maybe they'll have to communicate. If they get too noisy, throw them out in the snow. They'll shut up just to be able to stay inside. :)
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I have a neighbor a few miles away that has natural gas at his house. Now, I don't know if that's affected if the power to the area goes out.
Natural gas runs without electricity. Gas utility service runs at negligible pressure (3 psi nominal, down to 0.5 psi functional), so the available pressurized storage (gasholders, underground, or line packing) is unlikely to run out in the absence of electricity.
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Burn the furniture. When that runs out, burn the neighbor's furniture. As far as that goes, a good house bonfire does wonders for keeping warm, even if only for a little while. Your neighbors may not appreciate it, especially if they're home. :)
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The first thing you need to do is define your needs. If blackouts are only occasional, your planning is similar to planning a camping trip in your house.
My father has a professionally installed generator with all the bells and whistles - he lives south of Sarasota and has fairly frequent power outages due to the hurricanes. This was needed since the well water pump is electric. I first thought it was overkill, but he's in his 80's and can no longer deal with blackouts himself.
Unless you're need is both f
Re:tips (Score:4, Interesting)
Good advice. I have a generator and a manual transfer switch set up, and I did the "define needs" process, too. Since we'd just had an ice storm that knocked out power for two days, I knew exactly what I would've liked to run off the generator.
In my case, I'd have a generator anyway, because it's permanently mounted in my camper (I probably wouldn't bother otherwise). Also, the generator in the camper was new; I'd just had it replaced a few months before the ice storm, so being able to use it for backup power was a nice bonus.
I bought a small 15 amp transfer switch for four circuits and had it installed. I verified the installation using a multimeter to make sure I wouldn't be electrocuting anyone and to make sure everything operated the way I expected. It took half an hour or so but now I KNOW there are no problems.
The generator can produce 2500 watts, but I went with a 15-amp transfer switch because that's all I needed for the circuits I wanted to power. Since my generator isn't that large (20 amps max), a 15-amp switch was fine and I knew I wouldn't be able to power more than one, possibly two, circuits at once. No problem.
The four circuits I chose were:
1. Furnace fan (I have natural gas heat)
2. Kitchen lighting/outlets
3. Master bedroom and bathroom lighting/outlets
4. Refrigerator
The main point was to be able to keep food, keep the house from freezing, be able to use the bathrooms, and be able to sleep in the master bedroom (possibly using an electric space heater if necessary). I actually got more than I really needed, but only because my house has relatively few circuits wired and a lot of things are on the same circuits (the house was built in 1964).
Why not just stay in the camper? Because, during the winter, I have it winterized, so I can't use the water system, and it sits at an odd angle in the driveway, making it uncomfortable to sleep in. I did make some spaghetti one night during the outage (propane stove in the camper), but with everything so far off level, you really have to be careful what you cook and what pan you use.
Re:tips that will get you killed in a fire. (Score:4, Informative)
You're comparing apples and oranges here. In your example you have a low rated wire with a higher rated circuit interrupt. A load that exceeds the capability of the wire will cause it to melt rather than tripping the breaker.
The generator in the parent is a power source, not a power draw, and the circuit interrupt is rated lower. If the power draw from the house is higher than 15 amps, the the circuit will trip disconnecting the draw from the source. Any reasonable generator will throttle back based on load. I don't see how this is different than your primary source, the transmission lines, being capable of considerably higher current than your house mains.
While I personally would want the wiring and transfer switch rated higher than the generator, I doubt it's the invitation to calamity that you imply.
Re:tips (Score:4, Insightful)
If you want something permanently in place, you need an electrician, and no less. Because you need a huge On-Off-On lever switch to ensure you never attempt to power the house from both the generator and grid simultaneously.
This point is extremely important. Things like furnaces are usually hardwired into the house electrical system - so you can't just "unplug" it and plug it in to an extension to your generator. As a result, many people build themselves a "male to male" extension cord - a power line null modem, if you will - and plug one end into the generator, the other end into any house outlet. That reverse-powers the entire house.
However, it also provides entertainment when the AC power comes back on line.
If you're going to do this, then (a) turn off the house from the AC at the main breaker FIRST; (b) plug the male-male extension into the house first, then into the generator last (otherwise you're walking around with a power cord with a LIVE male end). But, it is still not recommended.
Also note that if you do this... you have no way of knowing when the power comes back.
Re:tips (Score:4, Interesting)
Things like furnaces are usually hardwired into the house electrical system - so you can't just "unplug" it and plug it in to an extension to your generator.
So wire up your furnace so it plugs into an outlet. Mine is exactly like this (already done by a previous owner). It's easy enough to do yourself, and will save you a lot of effort if the power ever goes out when it's cold.
As a result, many people build themselves a "male to male" extension cord
Sounds inherently dangerous. I'd rather not someone trip on an extension cord and pull out a live wire with live ends ends sticking out.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
1. Always have everything turned off when working with a cord with two male plug ends. Otherwise, when one end is plugged and the other isn't, you have a nice arc welder. A few extra minutes of running up and down your stairs may save your life.
2. Let the generator warm up first (see #4), then shut down and g to #1. Otherwise, when the furnace blower surges and your generator dies, you
Re:tips (Score:5, Informative)
Indeed. A 200 amp manual transfer switch can be found for $400 online. This gives you the ability to have a male plug coming out of the transfer switch that can never be powered by the utility - if it's connected, the mains are disconnected.
They usually come in the form of a breaker box. Installation isn't trivial, but it's not exceptionally difficult. First, identify what circuits are "must have" during a blackout. This would be:
Next, wire in your transfer switch to your main breaker box. Some go on their own 200amp breaker, others may be wired directly to the rails. TURN OFF YOUR MAIN BREAKER BEFORE WORKING ON YOUR SYSTEM. Read the manual to your transfer switch carefully, incorrect installation can be extremely dangerous.
Once the new subpanel is installed, you can move your protected circuits to it one-by-one. With mains power off, remove the breaker from your main panel, put it in the subpanel, and move the associated wires. Don't forget to replace the hole in your main panel with a blank, or you'll have a safety hazard. Once all the circuits are transferred, make a male plug for the AC input to the transfer switch that uses a heavy gauge connector (200a for a 200a switch). You may be able to skimp there as long as your extension cord is rated above the BREAKER on your generator. Not the rated power, but what it actually trips at.
With all that, a startup tip would be to power up the generator, turn OFF all the circuits in the subpanel, switch the input to the generator, and power them up one by one.
And please PLEASE check local code before trying this yourself. I have left things out that vary from state to state, and some other details that you have to know before trying something like this (what gauge wire to use between the main panel and your transfer switch, for instance). If you have a friend who is a LICENSED electrician you should definitely ask them to look over your plan, and inspect your final work before you use it.
Finally, not every locale allows owner-improvements to electrical systems, and you may have to use a licensed contractor.
Two important additions (Score:4, Informative)
After you turn off the main breaker, put a padlock on it. This prevents anyone who "wants to be helpful" or "knows what they're doing" from turning your main breaker back on.
Also note that your house probably has two phases. With this approach, you probably need to wire them together. If you do this in the house breaker box, do it before you connect your alternate power. Note well: Anything that depends on 220 V power is unusable with this approach. That may well include the high settings on an electric range.
We did this for three days in a winter storm when I was a kid (neighbors were on the corner and had power up a different street; they ran us an extension cord). These tips I learned from watching what my dad did.
Re:tips (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Wouldn't the breaker trip or do they not trip when backfed?
I thought only GFCI/AFCI protection didn't work in reverse, but overcurrent protection did.
Re:tips (Score:5, Informative)
I just ran heavy (15amp rated) extension cords this year when our power went out. I'm wiring up my shed this spring, so I'll already have a back ho out digging the ditch to run the underground wire, so I'm going to run a spare three pole 10-gauge direct burial (will cost some bucks) along with the main run out to the shed. I'll wire up a few outlets around my house that connect specifically to the generator (which is an el-cheapo Walmart 3500 watt gas unit), because a) the generator ain't big enough to power my panel and b) to do so in my neck of the woods requires a cut off so you're not rendering your incoming power line hot.
A bit of advice I got when I bought the generator was that you don't need to run your fridge and freezer all the time, providing you open them infrequently. Every few hours just plug them in, let the compressors bring the temperature down, and then unplug them. At the very least, don't keep the fridge door open while you ponder whether to use hot mustard or not. As you say, many electrical devices that don't draw a lot of power while in use can draw a lot of power at startup (cranking is I think the technical name). Even TVs can draw considerable juice when you first turn them on, so you probably will not want to put all your devices and appliances on a power bar and then flip the switch, but rather turn on each device one at a time.
Another thing my manual makes very clear is that the generator should be properly grounded. I didn't do that this year, but as I said, when I wire up my shed, I'm going to have to use a grounding rod anyways (since I'm putting in a subpanel) so I'll just bond the generator to that. 20 amps and 120 volts is enough to cook you good in the right circumstances.
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You might want to check to see if #6 aluminum wire is cheaper than #10 copper. Since you're going to run it between panels, it should be no problem - they all seem to have Cu/Al lugs and a little NoAlOx goes a long way. That'll give you some spare capacity, too. (#10 copper UF = 30A, #6 Al UF = 40A).
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Prices are coming down right now, and the difference between direct burial and using PVC conduit may be close enough that I'll just go with direct burial. Of course, throwing in some conduit doesn't hurt either, if you're ever thinking of adding something like CAT5 for Internet or phone.
Never run low voltage wiring (telephone, TV cable, intercom, thermostat, ethernet, et cetera) in the same conduit with "electrical" wiring (120 and/or 240). It's a violation of the National Electrical Code, which in most jurisdictions has the force of law, and it's unsafe in a number of ways.
Also, the NEC has specific requirements concerning how large an inside diameter the conduit has to have, depending on how many of what gauge wires are run through it.
If you're going to run both low voltage and power co
Re:tips (Score:5, Informative)
Re:tips (Score:5, Informative)
I've gone through enough power outages to do what you're wanting. This is a good list but I can simplify it a bit.
1. You'll need a transfer switch to connect your generator into your home's wiring. It is possible (but probably illegal) to back-feed your generator into your home. Improper backfeeding will send power back up the line, creating a danger to the line workers.
A transfer switch essentially allows your generator to become the power source to your home while cutting off your city power. You can do this yourself or hire an electrician, it's not real expensive. Here's a simple diagram [electrical-online.com].
2. Next figure out what size generator to get. There are many calculators out there to guide you. Essentially you add up the wattage of each appliance and buy a generator with about 20% extra.
An example, I have a 3000w generator, it runs 2 fridges, the gas furnace fan, most of the lights, maybe some music. It's very quiet and luggable. We turn off lights when not in use and leave the TV off, but could probably run it.
Depending on how close your neighbors are you might want to check the decibel level of your gen-set. The cheapo ones work great but are very loud.
Re:tips (Score:4, Interesting)
Its not only "probably illegal", in most places in the US its very illegal. The cord used to back-feed a house that way is referred to as a "dead man cord". The reason for that is because besides back-feeding your house, if you don't throw a transfer switch you are also back-feeding part of your neighborhood's wiring. This will make the linemen who are repairing that wiring at the least very unhappy, and in all likelihood it will make them very dead.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Nah, not at all likely to make them dead, your typical home generator just doesn't put out enough juice to kill most of the time. It's almost like people on slashdot didn't play with electricity as a kid =) The worst shock I've ever received was from a 10KV fly back transformer in an old Sun SLC workstation (it was the part for powering the CRT). That jolt blew a hole in the screwdriver I was using and threw me a couple feet and knocked me out.
Pure nonsense. That flyback is 10kv at a very low amperage. The voltage/amperage sent back over the powerlines from a home generator is plenty to kill someone. It could also kill you at th 120/240 volt level if you get into that.
Furthermore, what happens out on the utility lines, grounded or at 12kv, might very well toast your generator and maybe put something on file.
Many a safety minded lineman has had a good chuckle about the *deserving* generator user that foolishly endangered lives with a backfeed.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
However, I still feel the risk to linemen is minimal - as someone else pointed out, they know how to deal with live wires, because the other pair is live, and I'm certain they treat every wire as though it were live in any case.
Exactly.
Procedure:
1. Get hotstick out
2. Test to see if line is energized...nope
3. Put hotstick down
4. At the same time as step 3, some tool down the road fires up a generator
5. Grab line to start working on it
6. Die
Good plan.
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Automatic Transfer Switches (Score:4, Informative)
Re:tips (Score:4, Informative)
"I know nothing about this sort of thing.."
I strongly advise having someone who does do the installation.
You *must* have a switch that disconnects your house from your service drop. This is not a small switch--typical would be a 100A disconnect. If you don't, your generator will feed the service and present a huge danger to the people trying to restore your power. Ours allows the house to be powered off of either the generator or the utility, with no way for the utility and generator to be connected.
We bought an 8kW generator when we moved to Maine five years ago. My first thought was to buy a larger unit, but there's a problem with this idea. Compare fuel consumption fully loaded and at half load. IIRC, half load still consumes about 3/4 of the full load fuel. Generators become much less efficient at low loads--this means that you want to size it right, not oversize it. Running a generator isn't cheap.
I added up what we would typically have running and I think I came up with 4 or 5 kW. Bumping it up to 8kW seemed reasonable. Everything runs fine except the microwave (which acts browned out), and I don't use my plasma cutter or arc welder when we're on generator.
Steve
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I have always wondered are there generators that can run off (for those that have it) natural gas or propane?
Yes, and you can even get ones designed to provide heat / hot water as well. Link [marathonengine.com].
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Some thoughts (Score:4, Funny)
I'd like to know what it would take to get a little more power... like a fridge
This coming from the can't-feel-my-toes department? Put it outside!
router, laptop and a lightbulb.
Laptop first. It is marginally useful without the router. The router is useless without the laptop or some other computer. It also provides all the light you should need (though maybe not all your wife needs)
I suggest you go and get a small generator immediately. Murphy's Law (or something like it) demands that power be back on before you get home or immediately after you get it hooked up.
Re:Some thoughts (Score:5, Funny)
This coming from the can't-feel-my-toes department? Put it outside!
This coming from the order-of-importance dept: cold beer, internet, all other stuff.
howareyoutyping tag (Score:5, Funny)
This is CmdrTaco -- he's saving electricity by turning off the spellchecker to conserve power, while running off of battery backup. Obviously.
Pipes bursting (Score:5, Informative)
Might be best to turn off the water entirely and drain the pipes rather than risk a burst.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Actually this is much worse as your risk having the pipes connecting the house to the aqueduc burst.
The best way is to have a small thread of water running from a faucet, for both the hot and cold water taps. Depending on the layout of the plumbing there might be a need for 2 or 3 faucets to be running.
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What device are you using to post this message? (Score:2)
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As a DTE Stockholder... (Score:5, Funny)
As a DTE Customer... (Score:4, Funny)
... I object to your insistent and endless efforts to drive my home value down and to give hypothermia to my cat.
Low-amp thermoelectric? (Score:3, Informative)
A lot of people in cold climates have backup (or even primary) wood stoves for heat. The main problem is that these have electric fans to blow super-hot air from around the stove's inner box into the room. Now, given that it's cold outside when you're building fires and very hot inside the stove itself, is there some way to directly convert the heat difference into enough electricity to drive the stove's fan?
Seriously, these things can potentially put out tremendous amounts of heat, probably enough to keep the pipes from freezing in a medium-sized house and certainly enough to cook simple foods. I'd think that a self-powered version would be extremely appreciated.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
In Colorado, the only kind of wood stoves that I have seen that use electricity are pellet stoves [wikipedia.org], whereas wood stoves don't need any power at all. You just put logs in, get them burning, and that is it. Are you talking about a wood burning whole house furnace with forced air? That isn't exactly a "wood stove".
My family primarily uses wood to heat the house, with trees we cut down from the neighbors property. The forest here
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My brother in law retro-fit a wood burning furnace on to his 100 year old house's existing hot-water radiator heat.
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Are you talking about a wood burning whole house furnace with forced air?
Nope. I'm talking about a wood stove [buckstove.com], either free-standing or set into a fireplace. You start the fire then adjust the damper and air vents to control how quickly the wood burns, and the blowers remove what would otherwise be a dangerous amount of heat into the surrounding room. My parents have two of these in different living rooms and one in the basement. When you have it tweaked right and the fans running on full blast, you can't stand to be within several feet of it for more than a minute or two. T
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Re:Low-amp thermoelectric? (Score:4, Interesting)
Thermally driven fans are available for wood stoves. The ones I have seen mount inline with the exhaust pipe and use the thermal temperature difference to operated the fan but stove mounted ones for just circulating air around the stove are available also.
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Not quite. This style of wood stove (common in the Midwest at least) has fans built into its structure. The fire box sits inside a larger metal box, and the fans force air between the two. This lets you burn a fire much hotter than you normally wood and uses ambient room air to keep the whole system safely cooled. If the internal fans aren't blowing, then the fire box is effectively wrapped in a blanket of unmoving air. The insides would overheat while the outside would radiate a lot less heat than, sa
I just finished something similar (Score:5, Informative)
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This company has several options, and there are others. This is as close to professional grade as you can get cheaply. There are cheaper options that utilize a mandraulic process, but that doesn't help if you are on the west coast for holidays when the power drops. Don't forget to figure maintenance costs as it's not a one time charge for such a system. Most people ignore maintenance costs for heaters and A/C units and just repair when it breaks, but this is something you want to make sure works regularly.
I
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Well, let's see. 2500 square feet of finished space. 1250 square feet of unfinished basement. Two heat pumps, one 2.5 ton, one 2 ton. A large (but EnergyStar) fridge. A '3 Jimmy Hoffa' freezer, 220V big amperage well pump. Macerating sewage ejector pump. All your normal AV and networking gear, powered by a 2400W inverter and bank of 6 110Ah gel cells to hold power until the gen comes online. The inverter has a 120V 30A charger _in addition_ to the 20A of load it can power. With the exception of the clothes
Natural gas backup generator (Score:5, Informative)
Bottom line: Permanent home backup generators can be purchased for $3000 - $6000 + installation labor.
If you have natural gas available then I highly recommend using it for your backup generator, since outages are very rare and you won't ever need to worry about storing fuel.
If you house is like most, then your incoming service is 100 amp/220 split-phase. This means that a ~22 KW generator would give you 100% backup, but really most people don't use more than 80% of their service, so this setup [mainpowerconnect.com] should provide full capacity backup for almost anyone. If that's not enough, then move up to the 30 KW model. Kohler makes generators big enough to power your entire neighborhood if you are willing to buy it.
Wiring is not difficult, but depending on your experience level and your desire to obey the local electrical code, you should consider hiring a licensed electrician.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
A couple of comments about having them... (Score:5, Informative)
Just a comment - we've had a Kohler 15kW Natural Gas powered generator that automatically comes on if power is interrupted for more than 10 seconds for the past year. We've needed it a couple of times now for multi-hour interruptions and it's worked well with the following comments:
1. Get an electrician that knows what he's doing and has experience with automated generators. I spelled out how everything was supposed to be wired and the bozo our contractor hired didn't trust my work beforehand and refused to wire up things like our refrigerator because he thought it drew too much current and then didn't believe my calculations
2. When you look at different generators, you will see that going to a water cooled unit (which is generally what you get when you are in the 22kW range) doubles the price. The 15kW units don't power the whole house, but more than enough to be liveable - you should get your Furnace, Air Conditioning (power goes out in the summer too), kitchen, basic computers & internet service, a couple of bedrooms and a TV/etc. working comfortably
3. The generators need maintenance. Plan on $500 or more a year - you can't do this yourself unless you are licensed for working around natural gas.
4. The units will test themselves once a week. Make sure they come on when nobody's going to be bothered
5. Don't try to do it yourself, the installation is somewhat expensive ($1,500-$2,000) and then you have to do the interior wiring (hooking up the Automated Transfer Switch (ATS) and deciding which circuits should be used).
6. The pricing of the units change during the year and what's going on. Right now would probably be the worst possible time to buy one - I wouldn't be surprised that their prices haven't doubled in your area. You should be looking in the late spring before hurricane season is the best.
myke
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
That would depend on exactly how your house is configured. Heating, water heater, clothes dryer and stove could be gas or electric. If all of those were gas, then 15 KW should be more than enough for all your other loads.
If you take your electri
Re:Natural gas backup generator (Score:5, Funny)
Make sure that your natural gas generator is running a genuine copy of Microsoft Windows Vista. You will find that your generator is much more reliable with Windows Vista as long as you keep your system up to date and have anti-virus, spyware protection, and firewall utilities installed.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
How about getting it NOW? (Score:3, Insightful)
Home improvement stores, meijer, wal-mart, et-al are still open right now.
Go there, get one, get gas, bingo.
Why "next year"?
Re: (Score:2)
Insightful and PRACTICAL +1
Honda makes some great generators... 3-4kW should be sufficient for your purposes.
However, you should also look at where you're losing your heat. If you insulate your home well, you'll have to heat it a lot less in the winter, which is very relevant, if you're going to be doing it with a generator.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
They are very reliable, and like you mentioned they are SIGNIFICANTLY quieter than the competition. If you have to have it rumbling overnight, the difference may be enough to warrant spending more. Also, be careful with power ratings, as they can be PEAK or MEAN. A 1kw honda could probably push >0.8kw all night. A 3.5kw (peak) no-name brand may not actually be able to do that.
I recommend Honda because a number of people I know have recommended them highly. Ultimately, that's my major source of informatio
Re: (Score:2)
Why "next year"?
Because he wants a permanent solution. (which likely will take more than a day to get installed)
Natural Gas Generator? (Score:2)
My dad lives in rural Michigan. He's got a natural gas generator. It powers the important circuits. It has worked wonderfully (over several years) when the electricity has failed. Sorry, I don't know much about hookup mechanics.
mmmmm... (Score:5, Funny)
hypothermic babies and cats
mmmmmm, frozen tacos - yum
/Homer
The dirty way (Score:5, Informative)
There's a dirty, and illegal way to do it.
First, if you follow these instructions, remember this KEY STEP
TURN OFF THE MAIN SWITCH. Also, NEVER turn that main switch on if the generator is running.
Finally, the main switch MUST be double throw.
Forget to follow these instructions, and you can very easily kill a lineman or blow up your generator.
Anyways, you just need a three pronged dryer plug, 2 of them, and sufficient length of heavy gauge wire. You create an illegal male - male 3 pronged plug, and connect your generator socket into the 3 pronged plug in your house used for the clothes dryer.
The reason it is illegal is because this form of installation does not prevent you from connecting your generator to the wiring outside your house. If you left the main switch on, you can energize the dead lines outside with 12,000 volts and kill a lineman.
The advantage? As long as the main switch is double throw, and you don't turn it on when the generator is connected, it is pretty safe. And cheap : a double throw switch and circuit box is $200-$500, while this method can be done for $10.
Re:The dirty way (Score:4, Funny)
Re:The dirty way (Score:5, Informative)
Forget to follow these instructions, and you can very easily kill a lineman or blow up your generator.
1) Far more likely you'll vaporize your generator. Hook up a 3 KW generator to an entire neighborhood drawing maybe 300 kW and your generator goes poof. The only way you'll kill a lineman if the broken line feeds only your house and the break is an open circuit as opposed to short. Worst case is in between, turning a torn line tangled in a tree into a multi-KW space heater... Kind of like one of those electric charcoal starters but on a much larger scale.
2) The "real" reason it's illegal is, as you'll quickly discover, a male to male cable will probably fall out of the dryer plug at some point and then you've got a couple KW at 220 volts on large bare copper connectors less than an inch apart in a pitch dark room on the floor, or perhaps it'll hit something somewhat conductive on its way to the ground and start a huge fire, or perhaps the kids will play with it and get vaporized. The most likely failure mode of this experiment is electrocution of yourself and/or your family rather than a lineman. After all, the linemen are already working with live power on the "other" side of the broken line... they know what to do, and you don't.
3) You'll also quickly discover that you can't start up your furnace, water heater, sump pump, TV, and microwave all at the same instant although they may all run steady state. Expect alot of fun when the fridge and sump pump simultaneously start up, especially at 2am. You'll get lots of practice reseting breakers and restarting the generator.
4) Built in "permanent" generators are generally built to run and refuel 24x7. "Portables" generally are built to run a tankful and get put away till tomorrow. Portables will have some inherent design engineering "issues" such as gas caps next to red hot mufflers. So be really careful whem refilling. Hurry up and you'll turn into a torch. Also your 4 cycle will inevitably run out of oil at some point, hope you're checking the oil and/or the low oil shutoff works before the engine is trashed.
5) Since this is probably one of the most dangerous things you can possibly do, try not to do anything without thinking about each step very pessimistically. Also no booze, no waking up at 2am to refuel while half asleep. The greatest danger is doing something stupid, and being lucky, so you do it again until you croak.
Other than that, no problem.
Re:The dirty way (Score:4, Insightful)
First, I believe you mean double POLE, not double throw. If you're making a fundamental error like that, then you REALLY mustn't use a setup where a simple human error can kill people.
Second, it's illegal and irresponsible because it is way too easy for a simple human error to get people killed. If you're going to spend a few thousand on a generator that is even vaguely capable of handling a whole house (as opposed to a smaller emergency generator and a few heavy duty drop cords), $200-$500 isn't a lot to assure human safety.
Keep in mind too, that if your setup is discovered, you can be permanently disconnected from the grid. If a lineman hears a generator running and sees a power cord running in to your house, he will check it out. The fact that you did it right THAT time will not dissuade him from reporting you (it's HIS life on the line)! If your setup actually does injure or kill someone you will be charged.
This is one of those things that is technically possible but should NEVER be done in practice.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3)
And leave it that way.
As stated MANY times above. NOT RECOMMENDED.....
My recommendations (Score:5, Informative)
The first thing you want is a natural gas powered generator, not gasoline. Nothing like having to take a trip to the local gas station (presuming THEY have power) to fill up the generator every 8 hours or so. This, by definition, will make the generator a stationary unit (not on wheels, designed to be bolted down to a concrete pad).
Next, you want a generator with auto-start, auto-transfer with manual return. You want the thing to automatically kick in if the power dies, but YOU should be in control of when it decides to return to the grid. Nothing like finding out that the power died 10 minutes after you and the family left the house for a couple of days and coming back to a cold house with no power and potentially burst pipes.
Wattage - you will want at least a 5000 watt unit for whole-house use. Forget this idea of running power cords everywhere - unless you like the idea of tripping over power cords everywhere. With the transfer switch mentioned above, the generator takes the place of the grid so your internal house wiring will continue to serve it's duty.
There are several manufacturers of house generator systems. You can find low-end units at places like Home Depot or Lowes. Better units are best obtained from an electrical wholesale house.
Do yourself a huge favor here and hire a licensed electrician to do the work. It'll get done right the first time, the electrical inspector won't get excited (in a negative way) when he sees the work, and the odds of "something going wrong" go way down.
From another guy in Michigan (Westland)...
Re:My recommendations (Score:4, Informative)
Nothing like having to take a trip to the local gas station (presuming THEY have power) to fill up the generator every 8 hours or so.
THIS IS A MAJOR ISSUE.
When you have a massive area-wide power outage, three things happen with regards to gas stations.
First, many of them lose power. Gas pumps do not run without power. Until the station itself gets generators set up, it's useless.
Second, everybody else with generators is going to be crowding into the gas stations to try to buy fuel.
Third, odds are whatever caused the widespread power outage is also screwing up the fuel distribution system. The gas stations may not have any fuel to sell.
Re:My recommendations - Good advice (Score:3, Insightful)
While I don't disagree with ANY of your post, this statement is by far the absolute most important/best comment that will be posted to this thread.
Really, if you're asking slashdot about what you need, thats fine, get input so you can avoid the possiblity of
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No, because it's the governments job to protect my neighbors and the power company's repair crews from me. If I burnt my house down, it would at the very least damage my neighbor's house, if not catch it on fire as well. If I wire the generator into the mains, I could electrocute a linesman.
It's also a service provided to me to demonstrate to my insurance company that the job was done correctly. That way I can actually buy insurance.
Depends how hardcore you want to be... (Score:3, Interesting)
... but I'd look at surplus "permanent" diesel generators, and a dedicated genny shed. These will often be much, much cheaper than a new, smaller generator. Also, older kit tends to have been built well to begin with, and with repair and maintenance in mind - something that a lot of el-cheapo Chinese 80-quid-out-of-Lidl generators aren't.
If you buy a seriously large genny you may be able to split the costs with your neighbours - 30kW ought to do at least a couple of houses if you're careful. Ten years ago we used to have very frequent power cuts up north, and one enterprising chap bought a 10kW genny on a trailer which he towed round to people's houses every day to freeze their freezers for a small fee ;-)
I wouldn't bother with petrol-engined gennies - they're far more trouble than they're worth and will just plain not start when you need them. They also need constant servicing even when they're not used, and you need to keep fresh fuel in them - so that means either buying fuel and keeping the tank and carb dry (just what you need to sort out on a cold dark night), or running them pretty much every month enough to use a few gallons of petrol. Stick with diesels, they're simpler, easier to work on, and more reliable anyway.
It goes without saying that if you live in an area prone to power cuts, you should avoid electric heating and electric cookers. Don't run an electric cooker off the genny, it will guzzle fuel. If you have an electric cooker, get a petrol camping stove like one of the Coleman dual-burner ones, or a gas camping stove. A caravan/RV stove would be good, but will take up more space. I used to use a single-burner gas stove which took disposable gas bottles like large spray cans, but it was uneconomic to run. My petrol stove was quite expensive to buy, but much, *much* cheaper to run - plus if I run out of fuel I can just pump some from my car ;-)
You may be able to run your furnace blower from a large inverter, but they are typically not rated to run inductive loads for long. In the UK, we use small efficient blower motors in most boilers, which will run off a couple of hundred watts at most. The big old blowers with a squirrel-cage motor the size of a beer keg are long gone, something to be glad of ;-)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know how the grandparent poster expected the diesel fuel for the generator to be stored. Above ground in freezing temperatures diesel is useless. I'm not sure I want to know what the costs to use an underground epoxy coated tank are exactly. However, there are government permits, installation costs, and the cost of the tank itself to consider. I am going to guess that the hassle and cost of any underground tank, diesel, gasoline, or LP would all be high, and not worth the trouble.
Still, those co
Passive house heating (Score:5, Informative)
If you get the chance to move out, consider getting a Passive House, where it has super-thick insulation and is hermetically sealed. You wouldn't have to worry about frozen pipes in that kind of setup.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/27/world/europe/27house.html [nytimes.com]
Re: (Score:2)
If you get the chance to move out, consider getting a Passive House, where it has super-thick insulation and is hermetically sealed. You wouldn't have to worry about frozen pipes in that kind of setup.
Not for long, anyway.
Step 1: Check your local laws (Score:3, Informative)
Every state and town has different rules about how it all needs to be set up.
In some places, like Massachusetts, you can't do any of the install yourself. You have to have a licensed electrician do it.
As a tip, get a generator that uses an inverter. They run quieter and are less likely to damage electronics if you run out of fuel with them.
You also, pretty much everywhere, have to have a proper transfer switch to disconnect the grid power any time there is any electricity being sent into your house by the generator -- otherwise you will energize the power lines around your house and could kill a line worker.
But generally, you really need to talk to someone who knows the answer locally for you.
How do you calculate what size of genny you need? (Score:2)
Depends on how much you can spend (Score:3, Interesting)
As with most things. Basically you can buy a generator of any capacity you like. For small things, like a few lights and a heater and such, pretty much any one will do. Turns out that engines generate a rather lot of power in comparison to what most household items use. As a reference 1 horsepower = 745 watts. Gives you a little perspective on the amazing amount of power in a 200hp car engine.
Now this kind of thing would cost you somewhere in the range of $200-700 probably depending on size. It'll be a portable unit, gas powered. You'd wheel it outside, fire it up, and run an extension cord to your devices. Something to note though is the power is rather dirty. These small ones aren't so stable with the output. I don't know that you'd want to hook anything like a computer to it. Do so, and you might burn it out. For that you'd probably have to get a high quality DC inverter and hook it to the DC output (most small generators have a DC output). You'll also need to deal with the fuel. Gas isn't stable, you can't just keep a tank around for years. You'll have to periodically use the fuel and get more. You'll also want to keep extra fuel, past what it's tank can hold, since they usually aren't that large (5-20 hours worth or so normally). Finally, they are really noisy, like 90dB close up. Might bother some people.
Another option is a full home backup generator. These are modified car engines hooked to generators. They produce enough power to do an entire home. You wire them in to your breaker box, usually with an automatic transfer switch (though you can do manual transfer if you like). When the power dies, the generator fires up and transfers over. You then use your outlets as normal.
These generally run off of propane or natural gas (really large ones use diesel but you won't need that). If you have gas to your house, that makes fueling real simple. You simply take it from that. You never worry about refueling. If not, you install a propane tank, which you likely already have, and use that. Run time is really only limited by available fuel, and they come in sizes as large as you like. They also produce power stable enough that it is fine to run electronics on it. Hell, they have better power than some parts of the grid.
Downsides are size and cost. They are big, immobile things. You are going to have to have it installed and it is the a permanent part of the house. The cost is also high. Probably $2000 minimum, more realistically around $5000 and as much as $10,000-12,000. However, if you spend some cash you can get one that is rather quiet (around what a 4 cylinder car would be at 3,000rpm or so) and will easily do your whole house.
If you live in an area with major power problems, the whole house solution is the thing to check out. Expensive, but works great. Generac, or their consumer brand Guardian would be a good choice. They also test themselves (once a week normally) so you'll know if there are problems.
If you go for a cheap solution, just be mindful of all the gotchas. Make sure to test it, make sure to keep fresh fuel around, and if you need to use sensitive devices, make sure there is something cleaning up the power for them unless you are ok if they get burnt up. It might not be a problem, the generator might produce nice clean power and/or the device might have a power supply that doesn't care at all, but then it might end up killing something.
some ideas (Score:5, Informative)
Generac (http://www.generac.com/Default.aspx) sells complete packages ready to install as well as discrete units and transfer switches. I have one of their 15KW air cooled LNG/Propane generators (only in my case it is for power outages caused by Hurricanes). Very easy to install, mount their transfer panel next to your main breaker panel and transfer some of the loads from the main panel to the generator panel. The unit WON'T run your entire house, but you can put the most important circuits under backup.
If you have piped in LNG this is the way to go. Otherwise you need to bury a 250 to 1000 gal propane tank in the backyard.
The choice of fuel for generator use would be LNG, Propane, Diesel, and Gasoline (in that order).
Gasoline has the shortest 'shelf life' and is the most difficult to store (ask your fire department!).
Diesel fuel can last for years with the right additives and can power your car (if you have a diesel car). Diesel engines will also run on JetA (live near an airport?), home heating oil (filter it first!), bio-diesel (rob your nearby McDonalds of their used french fri oil!), even Kerosene. If you buy diesel fuel for generator use make sure you fill out the required paperwork so you don't have to pay the road taxes on the fuel. You can store diesel in the same kind of tanks that home heating oil is stored in.
How about a Prius (Score:4, Interesting)
Car Generator [nytimes.com]
Simple: Generator and a transfer switch (Score:3, Informative)
There's two ways: the "emergency only" way and the fancy everything automatic way.
#1: Any gas generator with a 240/120v twist lock outlet plus one of those 6 to 10 circuit generator transfer switches. The transfer switch has rocker switches on it and you pick your favorite circuits that you want to run on the generator during an outage. It wires in next to your breaker box - no need to run new wire anywhere. They usually have watt meters on them, too. When the power goes out, plug the generator into the transfer switch, fire it up, and switch the circuits to emergency. Get a generator in the 5 to 10 kW range. Cheap and effective, but the downside is you have to start it manually, and most portable units you can find run on unleaded gas. Make sure you run the generator at least once a month or you'll be in a world of hurt when you need it the most and it doesn't want to start.
#2: The fancy automated way. Get one of those Generac whole-house units. They have automatic transfer switches that completely bypass the utility feed and run the whole panel. When the power goes out it auto-starts and auto-transfers. They automatically start to exercise every week, too. These will probably be special order and definitely more expensive, but well worth it if you frequently have extended power outages with crappy weather and you don't want to go outside to fire up the generator. They can run on natural gas or propane. Get at leat a 10kW unit.
Either way you go use a transfer switch that wires into your breaker panel. It's much easier than running new wire or extension cords everywhere, especially when the power is out and you just want to get the damn thing running.
The cheap / halfass / easy way of doing it. (Score:4, Informative)
Disclaimer: Electricity is dangerous, and can kill you. I am not an electrician. I am a slashdot poster.
The short answer for going-off grid: Buy lots of solar panels, which don't work as well here in SE Michigan (WTF is with you calling Michigan the "Northeast"?) in the winter time, but may be enough to get you by in conjunction with a good sized battery bank, and be prepared to significantly change the way you use electricity.
As for the short / halfass way most of us deal with generator usage: Backfeeding (which isn't always regarded as the safest / smartest thing to do, since there are always idiots out there that will screw it up)
-Go to your breaker box, shut off the main breaker or breakers (the ones at the top of your box that say "Main".)
Congratulations, your house is now just a giant circuit of wires, not connected to the grid.
-Shutoff any and all non-essential breakers, especially those connected to heavy draws (You're not going to run your electric stove unless you've got a beefy generator). You may just want to kill everything, then try individual breakers on over time.
-Fire up your generator. If your 401k is where mine is now, you may want to do this indoors, in a confined space....If breathing is a priority for you (pussy), do this outside, a reasonable distance from your house.
-Using a heavy gauge extension cord (Not a "move a lamp" cord, think "run a heavy appliance / machine" cord), plug in to a nearby outlet.
Congratulations, you are now "backfeeding" your house off the generator. Instead of coming from the power lines, your electricity is coming in through an outlet. *DO NOT TURN YOUR MAIN BREAKERS ON!!!* One, Your poor generator will now try to power the entire grid, something that no dinky little 2500watt Honda can do and two, you will send power down a line that the poor DTE linesmen will / may assume is dead. Improper backfeeds can kill (and usually do a few times a year).
Now you try and figure out what "side" of your box is being feed (if you have a typical, grey box with switch type fuses in two columns. If you have glass fuses in a quaint old house....call an electrician and move out. Oi). The breakers on the same side as the circuit your generator is plugged in to will now have power. If it's on the same side as your furnace, you can turn the furnace breaker on and, hopefully, the furnace should kick on and begin heating the house. If your furnace is on the other side as your power source, you can move the power line to an outlet that is on the same side, or plug in another extension cord from your generator to an outlet on the same side.
Once power returns to your area simply shut down your generator, unplug your cords, then turn your main breaker back on.
You have to prioritize what's important to you for power. Furnace and sump pump are your musts, and a sump pump can put out a very heavy load for a very short time, causing a brownout. Ditto a Refrigerator. After that, its your call based on what the generator will power. You can try to power your whole house on a 2000 watt generator, and the generator will run. You'll also kill the generator and probably damage your major appliances. Bigger the generator, the more you can power, and the greater the cost. Honda is the Sony of the Generator market. Generally quality stuff, but you'll pay for it.
You'd also do well to investigate your electrical box and spend a day labeling every breaker and determining what you have running on each circuit. (lest you find out that a cheap alarm clock shorted out while you were on vacation, causing a breaker to pop, and that breaker was the same circuit your sump pump is on, which explains why your basement is now a swimming pool.) When I moved it, my box had two labels "Furnace" and "stove", now all 22 circuits are labeled, and I've been putting together a diagram that covers every outlet in the house.
Wood Stove (Score:3, Interesting)
1 Wood stove will do you just fine for keeping things warm from a survivability stand point. Several exotic solutions are also radiant heat setups with the woodstove as part of the fluid line (in short rather then using electricity to heat the radiant heat the wood stove does.) I've seen that setup in several garages in the floors (some very nice crude ones too in the middle of nowhere for storage sheds.) Usually there is a sterling engine style pump that is integrated to help move the fluid.
In a long term emergency go into the garage and get your camping tent. Set up the tent in basement of the house (use soup cans or other weights instead of spikes. I use bungie cords to some unfinished studs.(most homes freeze top-down fyi) Place 3-4 blankets and towels down as a floor in the tent. Grab some scrap 2x4s and nail up a pair of V shaped legs with a beam connecting them and build a small mini-tent inside the tent. Place blankets on top of that so you have a mini-tent inside for sleeping. Place any pets inside the main tent. This should keep the air temperature comfortable (sometimes even hot) in weather up to -20 degrees (your house is a big wind barrier.) turn off the water to the house and drain pipes. Wait for help.
Pipes freezing you should shut em off and bleed em empty if possible. A single wood stove in most homes will keep the ambient temp above freezing with little problem.
Go with a Honda EcoThrottle model (Score:3, Interesting)
jdb2
Safety comments (Score:3, Informative)
A blow to anti-government capitalists (Score:3, Interesting)
And on a side note, thanks to DTE Energy for telling us we had power when we didn't, for losing the ticket for our neighborhood, for telling us it would be back every single day when it wasn't, and for the helpful DTE representative who warned us that our pipes might burst. Thanks
Many folks here are wary of anything government, saying that the private sector can always do the job better and cheaper than government, but Springfield IL's city government puts the lie to that. Our power plant, CWLP [cwlp.com] (third picture down is General Manager Mr. Burns... er, sorry, Todd Renfrow. He just looks like Mr. Burns) is owned by the city.
When two F-2 tornados destroyed most of the city's south end infrastructure in 2006 we didn't have any of the problems the submitter experienced with his private utility. Power was out for a week at the longest in the hardest hit areas; poles and lines and transformers and everything else had to be replaced. It was three weeks before the privately owned telcos got landlines working, and a month before Insight (since bought out) got my cable and internet back online.
A few months later and a hundred miles south a single F1 went through the St. Louis area, doing far less damage. The private company Ameren took over a month to get power restored to all its customers.
See, it's not government, but government's bureaucracy. The bureaucracy doesn't come from the fact that it's government, it comes from the fact that the bigger an organization, any orginazation, the more bureaucracy, the less customer service, the more the cost, and the shoddier the workmanship.
If I'm unhappy with my electric service I can vote for the Mayor's opponent the next election. If you're unhappy with your private electric company you're shit out of luck. You can't just go down the street and use a different power company, they have you by the balls and there's nothing whatever you can do about it (save getting a humungous generator).
6500 watt runs most everything (Score:3, Interesting)
I have a 6500 watt portable generator that runs diesel. An electrician charged about $1000 to put in a transfer switch - legally - to the power box. (I know that's expensive, but I also know it's done correctly to code as it was permitted inspected by the State.) The generator runs hot water, plus all lights, microwave, electronics, etc. It will NOT run the heat pump or the oven/range or the drier, but everything else works, literally. The generator burns about half a gallon an hour. I have a 240 gallon tank full (usually) of biodiesel along with a Duramax truck which holds another 34 gallons. Of course, you take your chances with either of those being 100% full during an outage, but I figure with frugal use I can get by about six weeks at the minimum and twice that at the maximum.
1) Better have surge suppressors -- good ones -- on all electronics. Only the more expensive generators have compensators on them which regulate the voltage within tolerances expected by stuff like computers.
2) I would NOT put an auto start on a generator, myself, for fear it would start up when I was not at home. In my opinion, home generators need personalized attendance to regulate what is on and off. You don't want to waste fuel.
3) depending on how you're set up, the furnace fan idea might work if the furnace heat source is not electric, but I've chosen a wood stove which is capable of heating most of the downstairs rather than waste heat upstairs where it isn't really needed. I keep a cord of wood back and I can always steal wood from my neighbors. :-)
Just my opinion FYI. My system works pretty well for me. No real complaints.
$100 1KW Generator (Score:3, Informative)
John DeArmond has a good article on his site about the $100 1KW Chinese-made generators sold at Northern Tool.
http://www.johndearmond.com/2008/12/24/the-generator-that-could/ [johndearmond.com]
Enjoy,
OZ
Go Green! (Score:4, Interesting)
You can use a Toyota Prius [wikihow.com] to generate power enough to keep essentials operable.
I think that the first thing I would do is figure out what circuit breakers go to essential services (that you need in a cold weather power outage) and carefully label those fuses. Then run the power to your box with only those circuits hot.
This is not something you can just throw together, this is something you should get a licensed electrician to put together for you. The link to the article should tell any electrician what kind of power is coming off the Prius and that should give him ideas about how to set things up.
I highly recommend that your Prius have plenty of gasoline before you set it up as your generator. But this article [obsessable.com] suggests one person was able to supply his home with three days worth of power on five gallons of gasoline.
Of course you'll have to take the other car to work.
How about a house that stabilises at 60F?... (Score:3, Interesting)
...in a case of total power loss? (and even that after some time, with the rate of loss at 1F per day)
Granted, it's not really in line with gas-guzzling culture, but...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:2)
Don't piddle around, do it right. See this post [slashdot.org].
If you do choose the model you linked to, note that it says 'liquid propane', which requires different regulators and plumbing than generators that run on vapor.
Depending on where you live, there are electricians (like Master Electrical here in Richmond) that'll do it all from installation, hookup, and the gas work (they have folks with both gas and electrical licenses).
Make sure you size the genny for startup and inrush current - motors can pull 3x their r
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
IF FOLLOWING PARENTS ADVICE READ THIS (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
1) Gasoline is just as explosive as DYNOMITE, its SUPER SUPER dangerous to store. Diesel can be stored very safely for a long time, its not even really flammable hardly, and zero explosive dangers. Also its very dangerous to refill a hot generator with gasoline, diesel is safe enough to pretty much keep it running and refill it on the fly.
2) Gasoline generators usually run at about 6000RPM and are LOUD, Diesel generators run at about ONLY 1500-2000 RPM and are much much more quiet because of it.
3) Gasol