Measuring LAMP Competency? 453
An anonymous reader writes "Our company is getting ready to hire a number of programmers. While the majority of the prospective candidates do have good-looking resumes, we are looking to see if we can get some clear metrics in the assessment process. After a little research we have learned that there is a well-established PHP + MySQL training and certification process, and some of the candidates are already certified. There is also a candidate with a good portfolio, a lot of experience, and no certification. Most of the applicants also have some college/university science-related education. So our goal is to be able to somehow measure LAMP overall competency as well as basic computer science concepts such as BNF, data normalization, OOP, MVC, etc. How do Slashdot readers go about this kind of characterization?"
Ignore the certificates (Score:5, Funny)
Get them to write a trivial app.
If it contains 'INSERT INTO table ('. $foo. ');'
Kill them.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
You laugh. I've seen this in a code review.
<? header( 'Location: ' . $_GET['s'] ); ?>
That was the entire script....
No wonder why I'm bald.
Re:Ignore the certificates (Score:4, Informative)
There's nothing wrong with that...
It just HTTP-redirects you to the URL in the s variable of the query string. Are you worried that someone will change the value and -gasp- be redirected to a page of their choosing? They already have an address bar you know.
Re:Ignore the certificates (Score:5, Funny)
the part that is not using the mysql_real_this_week_special_now_for_sure_escape($foo);
Little Bobby Tables has your answer (Score:5, Informative)
It's not offensive so much as funny [xkcd.com].
You don't, by chance, do any web programming do you? If so, what's the URL? Just curious is all...
-B
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
MVP stands for Model-View-Presenter. What differentiates a Presenter from a Controller is that a Controller creates an appropriate model (or models) and a view of some kind, connects those together and tells them what to do. It might also do ACL checking and the likes before. Then, the view fetches data from the model(s) and displays it (for a very liberal value of "display", as might be the case with, say, an RSS feed generator). That's right: the view is an active element of the system, usually implemente
Get people to talk about what's on their CV. (Score:4, Insightful)
If they can't talk intelligently about what they say they've done... next!
No faith (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally I have no faith in certifications at all. I know tons of people who are certified out the yazoo and can't do a darn thing. I also knows tons of people with no certifications especially in open source where lots of us were working long before there were certifications, that figure things out on their own and dig for information. The people that are driven to dig are the ones that rock the house. Needing a course to learn is some what of an automatic fail to me. You will learn far more about which type of person they are in the interview than you will from a certification.
Re:No faith (Score:5, Funny)
Its the same way with doctors and civil engineers. I'll take my bypass (both heart and highway) from the guy who was to busy getting shit done to get board certified.
Re:No faith (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately IT certification has nowhere near the requirements and rigor that doctor and engineer certification requires.
If IT certification were more than "pay $amount -> get cert" then I'd be all for giving them credence. But they aren't. Currently they just highlight the programmer or IT professional who wants to hide their incompetence with paper.
Re: (Score:2)
I tend to agree. I just finished taking the introductory Microsoft Server 2008 courses (because my employer thought it would be a good idea), and about 50% of it was listening to someone yack, 25% doing some very simple GUI simulations, 15% poorly concealed advertising (phrases like "Windows Server 2008 is the most advanced server operating system ever made" abound), and 5% pathetically easy end tests. I ended up realizing that this is what the joker with the MCSEs and other certifications actually do.
The
Re:No faith (Score:5, Interesting)
That's a pretty bold assertion. I assert that it is not true.
Although... most certifications are entry level. They only say that you've read the material, have done some practice and have a basic understanding of the theory. They *try* to test for experience, but the Cisco, Microsoft and Linux certs can be passed without experience. I've written others, but I've seen few certs which contradict this.
Intermediate industry certifications mimic designations. They require nomination/sponsorship and years of experience, also point systems to maintain certification. They're much harder to fake.
All of these certifications make a reasonable minimum requirement. That's all. Most people I've met who are anti-cert seem to be resentful that they'd have to study material to acquire product knowledge in an area they've never seen, nor expect to see. Those people of course are missing knowledge. Maybe it's relevant to their jobs, maybe it's not. They'll never know, and they might spend weeks trying to figure out some problem because they don't know the capabilities of the software/tool/product.
Now I have to get back to work fixing some device which was deployed by some self-taught boob who didn't adhere to best practices for the device... probably because they used the default configuration without knowing what the defaults were. They of course moved on, and are probably telling people that certifications don't matter...
Re:No faith (Score:4, Interesting)
Although... most certifications are entry level. They only say that you've read the material, have done some practice and have a basic understanding of the theory. They *try* to test for experience, but the Cisco, Microsoft and Linux certs can be passed without experience. I've written others, but I've seen few certs which contradict this.
Woah, there, buddy.
Yes, there are entry level certificates for a lot of things:
A+ - anyone who puts this on a resume who is going for anything other than a repairman is stretching.
MCP (Microsoft Certified Professional) - you have passed any one MS test
PMP - congrats you're a PHB-prototype.
etc.
But, there's a LOT of pooh-poohing of certs around here, and some of it isn't warranted.
For example: People who have a CCNP have passed four different cisco tests, including a troubleshooting one. That could be crammed for probably, as it's strictly a multiple choice test, but most people who have a CCNP probably have at least a decent familiarity with Cisco equipment.
People who have an MCSE have passed 7 Microsoft tests. Yes, you can cram for this and learn in books / etc, but - it's still more difficult than people think. How many people do you actually know that have gone as far as really getting their MCSE? There's a lot, but not as many as who think that it's just a piece of paper and stupid test. There's some higher level domain configuration and troubleshooting, etc.
And the RHCE (which I recently got) is a literal hands-on test - they hand you a broken linux box which you have to fix, and then a list of things to make it do via whatever method you think best (i.e. sendmail or postifx, as long as it delivers mail etc).
Certifications are not the end-all be-all of knowledge measurement. But, they're not completely worthless either. I see people on slashdot all the time who are like "I don't trust someone with a certification", or "I trust someone with an RHCE less than I trust someone without one!". That just doesn't make any sense.
~X
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Sorry, RHCE, MCSE and CCNP are entry level. They're NOT easy, but if you don't have any work experience to back them up, then they dont' mean that you know very much about the technology.
I did the MCSE years ago, I'm working on the CCNP, and I work in intermediate roles. I don't do the certs because I'm looking for a job, I'm doing them to broaden my knowledge.
I've dealt with lots of clueless RHCEs (seriously) and heaps and heaps of clueless MCSEs. Without exception, they lacked experience. The CCNP is
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I've taken, and aced, the RHCE twice.
If you know wtf you're doing, it's really not that hard.
The RHCA exams, on the other hand... *twitch*
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
That is a retarded statement. Certifications for both doctors and civil engineers are completely different than what he is talking about. Both of these professions involve people dying when it is not done properly. For both professions, it is not a matter of just completing your degree and getting licensed. Doctors work as interns for years. In addition, a PE license requires 4-years of qualifying experience after school.
I understand what you are saying here. I am a licensed Civil Engineer and I have
Re: (Score:2)
Tower, this is Ghost Rider requesting a flyby.
That's a negative, Ghost Rider, the pattern is full.
WHOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh!
Re: (Score:2)
Good thing there's no software that could kill someone! Except maybe in automobiles, planes, boats, rockets, medical systems, power plants, telephone switches (better hope that 911 call gets through), etc etc etc.
Its not so much a matter of certification as it is a matter of engineering rigor. As you've stated, a certification does not show anything beyond basic competency. Its required for a lot of things where we put trust in people not to screw up some potentially life threatening task, and yet not on
Re: (Score:2)
That is a retarded statement. Certifications for both doctors and civil engineers are completely different than what he is talking about. Both of these professions involve people dying when it is not done properly.
What about the cases of people dying due to buggy software in x-ray machines? Or all the software that is running life-critical infrastructure in a hospital? Or the software controlling a nuclear plant? Or an airplane? There are plenty of places where writing software DOES involved people dying if it doesn't work properly.
Re: (Score:2)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3011105.stm [bbc.co.uk]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilton_Naki [wikipedia.org]
Quote BBC article: Employed at first as a gardener, Mr Naki worked his way up to become even more nimble-fingered on the operating table than Professor Barnard[1] himself.His work helped the first heart transplant become a reality and for years after that he passed on those skills to thousands of young surgeons.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/31/black-surgeon-first-heart-transplant [guardian.co.uk]
But a decade later, with Barnard
Re: (Score:2)
Perhaps the half-dozen word problems were th
Re: (Score:2)
The difference is not as stark as your implies. The AMA is very protective of the tiny minority of incompetent doctors responsible for the lion's share of malpractice lawsuits. Even among MD's there are those that game the "certification" system to gain entry into a career they are not qualified for.
Re:No faith (Score:5, Insightful)
I am a big proponent of hands on testing. Sit them down in front of a machine and give them a task to do. Time them, and then look at history, to see what they did and how they did it. If you see any red flags then don't hire them.
Re: (Score:2)
some people go out and get the certification so they can get past the HR droid
Agreed. Yet some of us, who have spent decades in the business, never had to get the certs because we interviewed well / got lucky / whatever. It seems awfully expensive to send someone making $XX an hour out to get certs when you know they can do the job. If they want a class, great. I've done that. But although I'd like to, say, get my RHCE, I have work to do and if I'm off at class there is no one to do it for me. So it's a balancing thing.
Were I starting over, I'd probably have to get my RHCE first. Bu
Re:No faith - but still needed (Score:4, Insightful)
but some people go out and get the certification so they can get past the HR droid
Yes, this is a massive problem. In order to get to the face-to-face you have to go through the screening process. This is normally carried out either by the HR trainee or, worse, by a recruitment "consultant". All they've been given is a tick-box of "must-haves" (i.e. a wish list of tangible qualities) and told to go through a pile of CVs.
All they'll do is toss the ones which don't meet the criteria.So you can be the best LAMP-er in the world, but unless you have the random qualification that someone though might be useful you don't even get a chance. So while certification bears no correlation to usefulness in the real world, it's a necessary stamp on your CV to get you through the door.
Re:No faith (Score:5, Insightful)
Nice false dichotomy there. There are plenty of people who actually know things AND have certifications.
Needing a course to learn is some what of an automatic fail to me.
Why? While self-learning is nice there are plenty of self-taught programmers and sysadmins that are complete garbage because they taught themselves to do things the wrong way and since they had no positive or negative feedback from someone like an instructor they have no idea that they are even doing things wrong.
Seriously? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
I'd agree with this completely, except for the fact that hiring managers suck at picking techies. And the 'questions' that get asked, if they're not technical, are pretty much irrelevant.
Technical competency is pretty much inverse to "team fit" as defined by a non-technical hiring manager. Introverted, awkward, geeky, bookish, maladjusted males are your prime territory here. These are not people who will shine at an interview where they have to be social or ask questions of a non-extremely-technical nature.
why BNF? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why BNF?
Re:why BNF? (Score:5, Informative)
Why BNF?
I think he is referring to Boyce-Codd Normal Form, a level of database normalization, as opposed to Backus-Naur Form, a way of describing context-free grammars.
Perhaps he accidentally dropped the C in the acronym. Although, judging from my CS classes, this is a common confusion.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
This has nothing to do with database design. It has to do with programming language design. BNF, or Backus Naur Form is basically a way of describing the syntax of a programming language in a precise way. It has nothing, zero, zip, nada, to do with database design. It's not useful for really anything outside of acadamia other than writing a compiler using bison/yacc. I've written a vrml parser, and so could answer some questions about it, but would be annoyed if I was interviewing for a LAMP position a
Forget certification, look at some projects (Score:3, Interesting)
Since you're looking to recruit a number of people, I'd say that their ability to work together - personalities, maturity, compatibility are at least as important as skills and experience. So don't just pick the top X according to how they rank at interview, consider if you think they can work together as a team.
Re: (Score:2)
Interview (Score:2)
Generally I would have an interview with the applicants that seemed most qualified. It's the easiest way to see if someone is padding their resume or generally bullshitting. When the vacant look comes into their eyes as they spew forth buzzwords in answer to your technical questions, you know you've got a loser. If you can't separate the liars from the nerds in an interview, you have a real problem.
Also: do you need this person long-term? If not, I'd advise a contract with the person that uses more Agile me
Portfolio. Previous work. certificates mean zit (Score:5, Insightful)
portfolio shows that you not only know your field, but also you have properly and responsibly participated in projects, collaborated, and actually built stuff with it, and saw them to their completion.
that is the kind of people you want to hire. and nothing than a portfolio shows it better.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
How do I show my enterprise app that runs on Solaris and Oracle to another company? If it isn't a webapp, how do you truly show a portfolio?
To hell with papers (Score:4, Insightful)
Additionally, to test their integration skills, you could also have them attempt to develop a new page to be integrated into your company's product. Not only will this show off their software development skills, but will also give you some insight into their ability to inherit an existing software project and work with it (something that he vast majority of newly-hired developers will have to do).
Re: (Score:2)
I've done the app writing thing (Score:3, Informative)
We got to t
Forget certificates (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
My certifications are a line item on my resume now. I don't really trumpet them, i like to stand on my actual project accomplishments, but i would like to think they don't bring me dow
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That is, no offense, a dumb outlook to have.
A person who doesn't know shit won't learn enough to do the job you want by getting a certificate, true. You should not take possession of a cert as evidence that a person is qualified to do a job without further investigation, also true.
However, a person who mostly knows how to do the job you want will usually learn a little something by getting the relevant cert -- if only a basic understanding of the pieces of the technology or framework in question that haven
This is pretty basic HR stuff (Score:4, Insightful)
First you define what you want:
Do you want technical certs? Then look for people with those.
Do you want people with academic background (data normalization, OOP, etc)? Then look for people with CS degree.
Do you want people with experience? Then look for people with relevant experience, and or do a practical test as suggested (which everyone can get their smart friend to do for them I'm sure)
Weight each one of the factors according to what he or she is supposed to be doing.
Systems analyst? Architecture design? Jr. code monkey? Overall hacker (jack of all trades, master of none)?
Then rank them in each factor. Most of those factores are qualitative more than quantitative by the way.
But sometimes, the best programmers are not the ones with the best qualifications, but the ones with the best fit into your business. 8 years php experience vs 4 years php experience IN YOUR INDUSTRY: I'll pick the 4 year experience guy.
Re: (Score:2)
Technical Interviews (Score:3, Interesting)
After you've established a baseline technical competency, ask them to solve a few simple programming problems to measure their problem solving ability. Doing them in PHP or Perl is obviously a bonus since you're dealing with LAMP, but pseudocode should be fine in a live interview type of situation. Don't judge things like missed semicolons too harshly, they're probably nervous. Concoct some basic scenarios dealing with the L or A part of the LAMP stack to judge their troubleshooting ability. Ask them for some SQL statements to pull certain data from a hypothetical database for the M part.
Interspersed throughout should be questions that judge how well they'll fit into your company culture and how easily they can learn new things or deal with new and unexpected situations. For these, concentrate on asking about past experiences of that type rather than asking canned hypotheticals that everyone has already seen on the Internet and knows how to answer.
A person's technical competence is not a reliable predictor of success. It's part of the equation, but his or her ability to learn and grow with the company, as well as the ability to fit in with your company culture, is much more important unless you're just looking for temporary contract labor.
Also, don't be afraid to ask your friendly neighborhood PHB. If he's taken any sort of business classes at all, and didn't spend the entire time Facebooking instead of paying attention, he should have plenty of insight on effective hiring.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
They may need those buzzwords or certificates to get past HR... don't be too harsh unless they really believe in those buzzwords!
You can't (Score:3)
That's what probation periods are for.
If you try to quantify it, you'll end up hiring people who are good at gaming your system. That's a skillset, I suppose, but probably not the one you're looking for.
Test for knowledge of two things (Score:2)
How about a small project? (Score:2)
Define a small coding project, deliverables and all, and bring in each candidate to complete it as a pre-interview. Then call back those that did the best job.
Problem solved?
Have someone competent interview them. (Score:5, Insightful)
Skip the alphabet soup. Do you really have no one on staff capable of recognizing competence?
If you don't, who were you planning to have manage the new hires? Who were you planning to have interpret your metrics?
By testing for it (Score:2)
It's the only way
1 - ok they know PHP?! Ask them to write a simple function (whiteboard will do it), but you also can ask the to do 'homework' or set up a dev env. in a laptop
2 - same for MySQL, do they know how to write a select, do they know how to use PhpMyAdmin at least?
If they refuse to do it then go for difficult questions. If they won't answer, just send them home
develop a one hour test (Score:2)
that you know demonstrates the ability to use the tools you have. It should be able to pull data from a DB, display it and accept data from the user and post it to the DB. Look for error handling and comments. What kind of naming conventions did he use. How crappy was his OOPs?
And, I would add a problem that could not be easily overcome. Maybe the DB UserID does not have update, just insert. How does he deal with adversity?
Finally, does he ask good quwestions and does he stick to the problem at hand?
D
Basic CS concepts? (Score:2)
Chicken and Egg Problem... (Score:2)
First off, throw all the resumes with certifications in the circular file. Seriously: that's the first sign they don't know what they're doing.
After that, you're back to the main problem of interviewing technical candidates. To do this successfully, you need at least one good technical person to participate in the interview. That person should be able to ask questions about experience and pose scenarios that probe the candidate's depth of knowledge. The interviewer also needs to be nimble enough to move
Re: (Score:2)
This is complete and utter bullshit. My last boss had a boatload of certs and managed offices for ca. four countries almost singlehandedly, he would easily run circles around your sorry administrative ass all day long.
Metrics are worthless (Score:2)
buzzword bingo (Score:2)
Play buzzword bingo with the CV:
ie, find the 'resume term-of-the-week' and ask them about it: if the candidate can speak about it intelligibly, they know something about it, and increase the difficulty.
in the past, the big buzzword was Java. Now it tends to be Python.
I sit on the interview committee for my group. I look over all resumes of candidates I interview before they step into my office, so I know what's written and what they 'claim to' know. I'll ask questions, and if the candidate has something
Certification (Score:2)
Speaking as somebody who just got a bunch of certifications in several areas to fill up the time during unemployment; certifications don't mean shit. Yes, they can get you hired more quickly, but they are no measurement of competence.
Are you qualified? (Score:2, Interesting)
If you have to ask how to interview software engineers for competency, maybe you are not qualified to be interviewing software engineers.
Good experience is far more important than any certification. Wanna see if they can design and build software? Give them a problem that requires they outline a design and then have them code up specific pieces like DB table schema, table queries, classes, templates etc.
Certificates = blame allocation (Score:2)
If you get to the blame allocation phase of your project, and I really hope you don't, then that's when certificates come into their own.
You can come up with the most perfect slashdot-based system of determining LAMP competency, but when push comes to shove, what a manager wants to see is commercial certificates.
I know and you know that they don't mean shit, anyone can pass them. But they're official bits of paper which means they're *quantifiable* and *indisputable* which makes them gold.
So the question yo
Ask questions... (Score:2)
I usually like to ask questions like:
How do you start/stop web server?
Where are the standard debug logs for web server, php/perl?
What's the difference between threads and processes?
If the average http connection lasts 1s, what is the maximum number of connections you can serve over 1 hour with a pool of 50 sockets?
Then I have them write a short piece of code in whatever common language they like for sorting.
Then I give them a basic mathematical equation and have them write the code to implement it.
Next I as
This isn't rocket science (Score:2)
PHP/MySQL web programming is a low-end job. So you want second-rate people who aren't totally incompetent. That stuff isn't rocket science.
You may be better off finding some people who will fit in well with your organization and have some interest in the business, and have done a little web development. They can learn PHP/MySQL in a month or two. They're likely to come up with something that makes business sense.
You can't (Score:2)
Ask them to speak about something they have done (Score:2)
Ask them to speak about some site they have done, and they are proud of.
See if they are able to a) Tell specifics about the implementation and b) Communicate them adequately.
One question I always ask... (Score:5, Insightful)
"as well as basic computer science concepts" (Score:5, Insightful)
as well as basic computer science concepts such as BNF, data normalization, OOP, MVC, etc.
Put 10 seasoned programmers in a room and, without access to references or preparation, ask them to write the BNF for some subset of a well-known language, normalise a database in stages up to 5th normal form, give a detailed description of OOP implementation in any language (not just "how is inheritance formed?" but "demonstrate polymorphic behaviour - suggest how it might have been implemented - describe its disadvantages" etc.) and ask them to fit some app description into MVC pattern.
You know what? Zero of them will succeed in all of your tasks. And, dear reader, if you claim that you will then you are lying.
You know why? Because testing like this doesn't reveal anything. I passed University with top grades throughout because I knew how to bone up for an exam and cough up the syllabus as requested, as well as having a moderately mathematical head. I can demonstrate prior performance and I can grasp new concepts. I can remind myself quickly of old concepts when given access to a reference.
But I don't have some magical savant-level ability to memorise everything I've ever done (and, experiments on savants suggest, if I did then I'd lack the skills to apply my elephantine knowledge to solving general commercial development problems). It's never hindered me. This sort of ability might be necessary if I were, say, a field intelligence agent(?), and not being able to concoct the right deception within a subsecond time interval might result in my death. Otherwise, it's just a dog and pony show.
Re:"as well as basic computer science concepts" (Score:5, Insightful)
Conduct a 'presentation' interview. (Score:2)
Ask the candidate to give a short presentation on a software project they worked on in the past. they can describe database design, frameworks used, reasoning behind programming environment choices etc. You'll get a good feel for their technical knowledge, grasp of a project and communication skills. Have someone in the interview who can throw technical Qs at them from time to time.
You're forgetting stuff (Score:2)
Technical ability isn't going to help nearly enough if they don't understand software engineering principles. What SDLC methodologies have they used? What do they like and don't like? What source code tools do they like? What is Brooks' Law? How do they work with QA? Have they supported software they have released or has it gone to another team?
And understand their answers. Say they don't like the daily Scrum in their AGILE environment. Why? Is it because it's pointless in that environment - no rea
Provide Development Tests (Score:2)
Development tests are very useful in that they can give you an idea of how someone works and what kind of quality to expect. Tests can be done in house or you can let them take them home if you'd like.
Provide a set of tasks and ask that they provide, for example, brief technical documentation, the code, database schema, and anything else relevant. Intentionally provide a task or two that doesn't have enough information - see if they ask for clarification (good thing) or just make up whatever they please (ba
I wouldn't worry about LAMP Competence Metrics (Score:2)
The whole idea of LAMP is that it's an easy-to-learn, easy-to-deploy stack. Any competent developer should be able to learn this, quickly. Even if you could assign a "LAMP Competence Metric" (say a 0-10 scale) to a person, a competent developer who is a 2 in LAMP will be a 9 much more quickly than an incompetent developer who is currently a 6.
When I hire coders, I like to see how quickly they can understand a system via standard UML architecture diagrams. I like to see if they can implement a basic logic
This isn't 100% sarcastic. (Score:2)
Given how you and perhaps your organization seems to work, you should just look for developers who are good at going to forums and asking other people for advice on how to do their job.
Not certs (Score:2)
I'd be pretty dubious of a PHP programmer with a cert. You probably just want to know if they can think. To that end programming exercises are good. Just give them a fairly simple task and 2 hours or so. For LAMP, I'd probably just ask them to build a simple CRUD contact management app. Just ask for FIRST_NAME, LAST_NAME, and EMAIL. Allow them to install tools they need.
This tests that they can:
1) Create a table
2) Create a web page
3) Know the proper times to GET and POST
4) Know SQL syntax and how to used pr
Give them a bug, 4 levels deep. (Score:2, Interesting)
HIRE HIM! (Score:3, Insightful)
There is also a candidate with a good portfolio, a lot of experience, and no certification.
I don't know this guy but I'm sure he's extremely well qualified for the job and you should hire him ASAP because he's about to miss another mortgage payment.
When I started here... (Score:3, Interesting)
The company I'm at now had an interesting review process: I sat in a cubicle with the two lead developers. One asked me matter-of-fact questions: what would you do in x situation? What is your proficiency with the Linux command-line? How long have you used PHP and how have you used it? Have you ever configured a server? The other programmer, however, had some more interesting questions - bringing up ridiculous scenarios that had simple answers, yet the question itself was laden with red herrings to make you really think about it.
After this interview process, it came time to do a couple quick programming tests: fizz/buzz is a standard here, just to make sure you're sane. There is also a simple "Build an HTML form that submits here, do x y and z with the returned data." Simple tests are usually the best, as we have a sort of wall of shame for people who did not have any clue what they were doing. Example: One person asked if they could install Dreamweaver so he could do the Fizz Buzz. Another wrote in the comments to his HTML form test: "
<!--another API i dont know. Lets see if this gets the job done --!>
<form action="testMe">
<form textfield = "username">
</form>
These are the people you don't want to hire. I understand you're looking for something perhaps more rigorous, but a set of simple, common sense tests is a great starting point. Have them grep a file for a pattern - did they use and/or understand regular expressions? Did they use them when they didn't need to? How about making an .htaccess file that does some basic functionality. Have them create a table with an auto_increment'ing ID and write a form/PHP page to store information in it (and see if they know about basic data sanitizing). And of course, Fizz Buzz!
Weed out the incompetents/overachievers and then take a few for a test run - make sure they understand and conform to your coding standards, make sure they have the ability to learn and understand your processes (how your MVC works, a general understanding or willingness to learn your DB structure, etc).
Re:ask to see a server they configured (Score:5, Insightful)
The answer seems simple. Ask for guest access to a server that they configured. If they don't have something like that you could set up a simple lamp server and have them perform some basic tasks.
This may be good for interviewing people for a sysadmin position, but I fail to see how configuring a server has anything to do with the applicants ability to develop software.
Re:ask to see a server they configured (Score:5, Insightful)
A lack of ability to properly configure a server can often lead to developers writing code that requires more than the minimum privilege level, wonky configuration "needs" without really thinking it through, and a mindset of "throw hardware at it!" Working previously as a system admin at a web hosting company, the new hires that came to us, usually with a lack of college education or experience with compiled languages but a lot of experience as "web developers", they answers usually involved excessive needs for additional memory. A lot of the resource abuse issues I had to deal with also boiled down to a customer installing a software package that had a lot of neat features but required dedicated hardware to run far in excess of what a shared hosting package or even a VPS could deliver without affecting quality of service for other customers.
I'll freely admit I'm not a good web developer, but I can hold my own reasonably well with Perl and C in the areas I work in then and now. My first instinct, however, is exactly the opposite of "buy more RAM" or "just let everything in through the firewall." Not saying all, or even most, developers are like that. But a very high percentage of the ones I've seen in action are.
Re:ask to see a server they configured (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
And vice-versa. If they do give you access to their server - FAIL.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:More than just knowledge (Score:5, Insightful)
A good work ethic and honesty ...
is not hiring two persons to drop them few months later.
Re:More than just knowledge (Score:4, Insightful)
If they are told up front their position is temporary, what's the problem?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I happen to love doing contract to hire work - I get paid, you get work performed.
If I like the company (and they offer, so far they have), I'll go perm. If not, thank you and I'm on my way :)
The FTE gig is the worst gig ever. Crap wages, crap work, too many hours, and you get laid off with the same notice as a contractor (but are expected to slave 'for the good of the company'). It's no wonder so many places outsource these days.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Previous work (Score:4, Insightful)
In the past, I've asked people to send me sample code. Some was protected by various agreements, so they sent me snippets that were enough for me to review their coding style, without giving away the details of their work.
The clincher is always the interview. I don't just sit down and talk with someone about what they know, and let them brag without anything supporting it. Ask real world questions. Have them write a few lines of code to do something on a piece of paper or whiteboard. It doesn't have to be syntactically perfect, but it has to be close.
My interviews were more for sysadmin stuff, so having them describe what they'd do for a task can be very revealing. Like a question like this:
"The COO has come to you, because no one else is available. The CEO is flipping out. There's a server on the network running some common variety of Linux. Transfer rates from it to any other machine are very slow, regardless of the protocol. i.e., http, ftp, rsync, samba are all slow. What do you do?"
I'll have established what the real fault is in my head, and give them appropriate answers to what they say to do.
It's a pretty simple one to solve, or at least bring to a point where authorized assistance is needed. I've gotten all kinds of answers to that one. Some answer "call someone else for assistance", which I tell them the someone else is unavailable. Some just reboot it, which isn't a valid answer as a first step. I tell them "No, it's a production machine. You can't." Some actually start pinging, checking ifconfig for errors on the interface, and check the interface duplex. Obviously, the last set of answers is the right one.
Adding extra stress is always useful, if they don't get it right off. A little yelling and table pounding is enough for that. "The COO is demanding an answer now! [pounding on table] We're losing money! If you don't get this fixed, it's your job on the line!" Some people do fine. Some just stare at you dumbfounded without a clue if they don't have Google in front of them.
When it's my interview, and my decision (it's not always both), I evaluate how good the answers were, even if they were wrong. Did the guy show a competent level of knowledge, or does he just think he can do the job and has no clue. A few will float to the top, and quite a few get put to the bottom of the list.
Re:Previous work (Score:5, Funny)
"The COO has come to you, because no one else is available. The CEO is flipping out. There's a server on the network running some common variety of Linux. Transfer rates from it to any other machine are very slow, regardless of the protocol. i.e., http, ftp, rsync, samba are all slow. What do you do?"
OH GOD OH GOD... what wall jack is that server plugged into...what? Not labelled? CRAP! OK, I'll just PING it and look it up in the switch arp table and cross reference the MAC and the switch port... OH NO...THE RDP client on my Blackberry just crashed and I'm in the middle of the highway during rush hour... CRAP. OK, OK...calm down...make up something... OK, um tell the CEO that the server is under service lockdown and frozen due to the upcoming board meeting and potential buyout... yeah...that'll give me a couple of days leeway... whew!
Then, since I'm in the network group, I can just blame it on the server group since they never patch their servers anyway... that E1000 driver never did work properly on Linux, yeah yeah that's what I'll do...
Re:Previous work (Score:4, Insightful)
You said this:
For the sake of the scenario, ... you are sitting at a desk where you have both any tools required on your desktop, ...
And this:
Some just stare at you dumbfounded without a clue if they don't have Google in front of them.
Not to be a jerk, but make up your mind. For many purposes, Google is an invaluable tool. The skill you want is the ability to think for one's self--and some may have enough knowledge to know which keywords to look for.
... And maybe I'm good enough to be picky, but I wouldn't want to work for anyone who yelled at me (even role-playing) in an interview.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I've interviewed with them 3 times on the phone (three interviews each). Some of their questions just plain don't make sense. From what other folks have said, it's just to see how you handle stressful situations.
Like this question...
G: "How does telnet work?"
Me: "Can you please clarify the question?"
G: "How does telnet work?"
Me: "Well, it is an application which opens a TCP connection to a server, normally on port 23
Re:Previous work (Score:5, Insightful)
On second thought, if that's actually how your office functions, then I guess it is honest and appropriate. I just wouldn't want to work there.
Re:Previous work (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. Meeting a table thumping, yelling person in the interview would just cause me to stand up and say "I'm sorry, I'm looking for a position at a professional organisation". If this sort of situation is routine enough to require somebody to do well in it during an interview then I'd say there are some problems there.
In real situations this doesn't happen. At least in the places I've worked. There was an incident of massive negligence by the support team involving one of our biggest customers databases last year. Instead of someone in management hitting the table and yelling, everyone in the development team already knew it needed to be fixed and so we fixed it. A good team doesn't need yelling at.
It seems to me that the type of managers who yell and ask why are usually the ones in the positions who don't need to know. A good manager will be right there with the team putting forward ideas, not simply asking questions. If they're not going to be putting in ideas then they should get away from the problem and let people get on with it.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
As I've found, there's always some degree of yelling in high dollar production environments, especially where a few minutes of outage can be the difference between a highly profitable day, or a huge loss. Hell, people freak out when a Windows file share stops working, or Outlook eats their mail. I've never seen a warm fuzzy workplace that involved a production environment and/or deadlines, that didn't have the occasional loud emotional moments.
When I've interviewed, the yelli
Re:Previous work (Score:5, Funny)
Egads - it's the whole "Root Cause Analysis" crap. A mile-long report filled with BS that means nothing to anyone else and and action plan of "how to prevent this from happening again" blah blah blah. I always felt those things should be triaged first to determine if the RCA was even under our control. But whatever.
I worked for a hospital in LA that rakes in far too much money than they should and they do those a lot. Usually they would pay the most expensive consultant to write one of those things up for it to only be ignored. They would have already vilified someone (responsible or not) and then just go through the motions.
As far as the interview - deal with it. If you can't stand a little heat stay out of the kitchen. I would probably just laugh at the guy slapping the table and then play along. I would say "Good. We have some spirit here. You there - table slapper. First thing I'll say is use some of that fire and gumption to get the reatrds with their neckties on too tight to get the f**k out of my way while I fix the problem - and be advised, every time you slap the table adds another 1 minute to my problem solving because you're being annoying, and another 10 dollar Starbucks card to feed my liquid crack habit."
And as someone who had to deal with a LAMP server I built on spare parts a few years ago I encountered just such a thing - ARP flux. I still don't understand a lot about it but was able to get it working. And don't knock Google. I don't pretend to have all the answers - never do. I am a jack of all trades, master of none. If all I am is all you got, you'd do well to either have coverage I can count on or a MiFi for me to have unfettered access to resources I've built over the year. Be smart. Leverage your people and their assets they know they can reach.
As to nobody being available and it filters all the way down to me to fix a critical server? Looks like that's the FIRST thing that goes into your RCA before you even THINK of rattling my cage, Mr. Manager. "Business Continuity Planning" - learn it and love it :-)
That said, I am now and always have been happy to roll up my sleeves and try something to help regardless of the circumstances. CIO, CEO, Line Manager or Mary in accounting who blushes at the comment of "I think your mouse has a dirty ball" :-)
One of my favorite things to ask is like what I read a while back on the site "Joelonsoftware". "Build me a house" and hand them a pen. If they just jump up and start writing a square - they lose. Ask questions. Probe a bit. "Who wants the house? Where? Underwater? In space? what's my requirements? I figure if you're asking ME to design a house we're pretty much open to anything."
Does the person have good troubleshooting skills? Are they well rounded? Common sense is not so common much anymore. What kind of things do they like to do as "stretch" things on their own time? I write hospital EDI interfaces for integration engines for a living and I very much enjoy it. It also means what I do touches many, many aspects of programming and system design to get things to work together. Part programmer, part analyst, part teacher, part hardware engineer, part tech support, part application setup, part network guy to help figure out VPN stuff. Being able to get iptrace running on AIX so I can grab a file for bringing in to Wireshark can be helpful too when the ass-hat on the vendor side says I'm sending him 2 of everything and I'm saying he's on crack.
So you wanna slap the table? I'll roll with it and we can laugh about it. I don't take any of that seriously. Be advised I might also stick my finger in your coffee and then taste it and say "Hmm.. A cream and sugar kind of fellow, eh? You should warm that up a bit." right in the middle of your mini flake-out. Someone did that to me years ago and I made the choice right then and there to laugh at that kind of thing. It was either that or I could have just kicked his ass. Of course he was much bigger than me so I was pretty sure I would have had to pack a lunch; since kicking his ass would have most likely been an all-day job. Lucky for both of us I was lazy.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You have to deal with stress, but not disrespect or yelling. The problem there is the yeller, and I don't know a single workplace I've ever been in where someone acting like that wouldn't be disciplined or fired. In fact, the few who I've seen try that *were* fired. If someone came in yelling at me I'd tell him to fuck up and refuse to work on the issue until he came back calm. We are not your whipping boys, you will treat your employees in a respectful manner, or you'll get either nothing from them or
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Previous work (Score:5, Insightful)
First step is to run top, not to check the network. Just like the first step, when a car will crank over but won't start, isn't to pop the hood and start fiddling with the wires, but to check the gas gauge.
Always eliminate the easy things first.
Re:Previous work (Score:4, Insightful)
But hey, if you can't handle an environment with occasional high stress, I wouldn't want you there.
You seem to be confusing refusal to accept unprofessional behaviour by idiot management with an inability to handle high stress situations. I suggest to you that the kind of person the GP poster is talking about may well be quite capable of handling the stress, but prefers to avoid the problem situation in the first place by working for a more professional organisation instead.
That's the great thing about recruitment processes: they're two-way deals, and revealing in both directions. If the interviewer is an ass, or you're good but your CV doesn't get past the HR weenies for some silly reason, then you can pretty much always bet that the corporate culture is poor and the employer isn't somewhere you want to work anyway, so not getting the interview or walking out early is no problem.
Re:Previous work (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, I never had anyone walk out. Since it was presented as roleplay of a real world situation, and I'd explain the details of the situation calmly and clearly, it was evident that it was an extreme example.
What a competent interviewer would do is set up a VM with the problem they want diagnosed. That way, there wouldn't be any need to set up a fake "situation" where the "real fault" can be any number of things, including ones that don't match what you have established in your head.
Of course, if you can't handle an environment with occasional actual preparation for your job (e.g., interviewing), I wouldn't want you to work with me.
That's the last thing I'd ever want is a stressful situation to come up, and an employee walking out because it was "too hard".
Being "yelled at" by a superior is not a "stressful situation". It's unprofessional behavior. Being told politely and calmly that there is a problem that needs to be fixed quickly because the company is losing $X million per hour is a "stressful situation".