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Ask Slashdot: Best Strategies For Teaching Kids CS Skills With Basic? 215

Posted by timothy from the goto-from-here-on-out dept.
beaverdownunder writes We're currently working on developing a teaching platform based around our BASIC interpreter DiscoRunner, and we would love to hear from Slashdot readers as to what methods they've used in the past to teach kids computer science concepts — which worked, what didn't, and why? This will obviously be invaluable to us when it comes to working out the lessons that will be taught in our fight-to-save-the-world-from-evil learning environment, and we would be eternally grateful for any scraps of wisdom you could toss our way.
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Ask Slashdot: Best Strategies For Teaching Kids CS Skills With Basic? More

Ask Slashdot: Best Strategies For Teaching Kids CS Skills With Basic?

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  • While your saving the world idea sounds exciting, it won't appeal to a large segment of your audience. Give them a choice of some other options, maybe something more social.

    • I've found that kids will be much more interested in programming if they can create games, because almost every kid on earth enjoys playing them. That's pretty much what I did when teaching myself how to program (my first language was actually AppleBASIC) back in grade school, and this continued even through college - when I had a choice in my projects. I found I was much more willing to challenge myself with difficult problems when I was interested in the task at hand, rather than just completing some ra

      • True - which is why Gamemaker is installed often in classrooms. Gives you a running game in basically an hour. After that, you get to add stuff and then you start programming.

    • Re:Offer more streams (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Demonoid-Penguin ( 1669014 ) on Saturday March 07, 2015 @06:34PM (#49206765) Homepage

      While your saving the world idea sounds exciting, it won't appeal to a large segment of your audience. Give them a choice of some other options, maybe something more social.

      Perhaps - before you even attempt that:-

      • Provide licensing information on your website
      • Fix some "basic" problems [discorunner.com]
      • mention that it is Apple BASIC
      • differentiate it from BASIC4GL [basic4gl.net]
      • It is /. - tell us about the code and who wrote it.

      Fix those point and you'll have a product that stands head and shoulders against the competition. Which isn't hard - most of the edutainment market is utter crap (I work with a large number of schools that buy utter shit on the basis of "social-networking" merit points)
      Until then it 'seems' like you (Melody and Anne? [founderdating.com]) are just spamming Slashdot to promote a 2 month old project.

      Not that the idea isn't without merit - it's just that the "edutainment" market is overcrowded with "outsourced" get-rich-quick, all-froth-(and social marketing) and-no-beer closed-source schemes knocked-up-in-an-afternoon that leave a trail of broken promises in schools already hard pressed to do the bare minimum with their tiny budgets

      Good luck

      "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration" ~ Edsger W. Dijkstra

      • Re:Offer more streams (Score:5, Informative)

        by BarbaraHudson ( 3785311 ) <barbara.jane.hud ... com minus distro> on Saturday March 07, 2015 @07:40PM (#49207035) Journal

        It's Melody Ayres-Griffiths. She's promoting her new (started setting ip up in December) pixelwitches [pixelwitches.com], which will teach you "training in graphic design, music / audio and videography on Macintosh and Windows-based PCs for $97 per hour." And let's not forget drupal and wordpress [pixelwitches.com] work.

        But from the look of their discorunner site (hint - she used to do music stuff) she needs someone to tell her that the '90s wants their butt-ugly wordpress theme back.

        Archive org shows that the original owner of discorunner.com let it expire in the spring of 2014. It was taken over by the new owner on January 15th of this year. The previous site had to do with ... wait for it ... jogging.

        Slashvertisement, pure and simple.

        • Re:Offer more streams (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Demonoid-Penguin ( 1669014 ) on Saturday March 07, 2015 @09:58PM (#49207575) Homepage

          It's Melody Ayres-Griffiths.

          I wasn't sure if it was Melody, or her partner April [pozible.com]. I know 'of' them (I have a voluntary position on a community funding body, so I've seen previous "software" by them) - so I chose my words carefully when describing the "market", the nature of some (many?) of those trying to, um, mine it - and what I'd want to see before I'd vote in favour of funding it. Melody(?) has previously promoted this latest 'project' on /. celebrating 1000 downloads (by who?).

          Whois showed the current registration was recent , hence my comment about, um, young code.

          DiscoRunner is different because:-

          • 99.5% compatible with the original languages [wikipedia.org]
          • multi dialect (well, two, sort of - so far....)
          • BASIC programs are saved as text files (revolutionary! paradigm shift!! No more .BAS binaries!! [sigh])
          • various other breakthroughs

          Yes, I'm a jaded cynic (and Australian).

          • I believe they're both involved, but the two sites (discowhatevah and pixelwitches) both give Mel as the contact.

            BASIC programs are saved as text files (revolutionary! paradigm shift!! No more .BAS binaries!! [sigh])

            Yeah - that's about as "new" as my pre-PC Radio Scrap computer.

            • I believe they're both involved, but the two sites (discowhatevah and pixelwitches) both give Mel as the contact.

              I remember Mel, kind of full-on (shades of Christopher Skase) - she's the does the thinking and talking. Pixelwitches how, um, original [pixelwitch.com].

              "those that can do, and those that can't, teach". i.e. advertise your WordPress version, don't keep it up-to-date, use images where ever possible instead of pesky text, alt tags are for wimps, CSS means make shit up - maybe it'll parse [sigh]. I'm guessing "select" contract work means "if you're gullible".

              Dear Slashdot, please do my homework - I've got a killer idea for

      • "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration" ~ Edsger W. Dijkstra

        1975 called and they want their very out of date quotes back.

        Seriously, that comment was made in 1975, when the state of the art in BASIC was more or less "goto". By 1982, BASIC variants with proper named functions and procedures existed. It also reduced the impact of line numbers drastically with th

        • "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration" ~ Edsger W. Dijkstra

          1975 called and they want their very out of date quotes back.

          And you're still banging the BASIC is good - oh, look it's now in 256 colours drum? I guess in your fanboi haste you missed where I linked to the Wikipedia page on BASIC - but don't let it stop you from spewing realms of your BASIC trivia creds (you forgot the beauty and joys of VisualBASIC). BASIC has new features and Barbie does IT. Grow up and eat your own dog food - 'cause 1988 wants BASIC back (and it can keep it). Maybe try getting children interested in any version of BASIC when they can choose from

        • "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration" ~ Edsger W. Dijkstra

          1975 called and they want their very out of date quotes back.

          Actually, this is only one from a series of "definitions" Dijkstra made for a humorous glossary of computer languages on an old mailing list.

          Seriously, that comment was made in 1975, when the state of the art in BASIC was more or less "goto". By 1982, BASIC variants with proper named functions and procedures existed. It also reduced the impact of line numbers drastically with the "RENUMBER" command which renumbered and tracked gotos and gosubs (excluding computed gotos). That was BBC Basic.

          By 1988 QuickBasic 4.5 was released (later adapted to be qbasic), which contained proper nested blocks, and made line numbers completely optional. I'm sure there were earlier versions doing such things (certainly earlier versions of QuickBasic), but many people here will be familiar with this one and its derivatives.

          The system alluded to in the summary/question is an Apple ][ BASIC emulator. It is not BBC BASIC. It is not QuickBasic. Apple ][ BASIC. With emulated Apple ][ display hardware. This is not something that will grab kids' attention.

          Besides, there comes a point when either you've changed BASIC to such a point that it's not BASIC any more, or it's a clumsy morass of diffe

  • Teach them GOTO! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ShaunC ( 203807 ) on Saturday March 07, 2015 @05:21PM (#49206343)

    GOTO is well-known as a beneficial logical statement. I suppose in this day and age, we're going to need something like this:

    10 PRINT "GIRLS KAN CODE 2"
    20 GOTO 10

  • Give students license to solve problems (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Virus Hunter ( 1274224 ) on Saturday March 07, 2015 @05:26PM (#49206367)
    My daughter took a programming class using Basic during her freshman year. I encouraged her to take it, so she could see that there are multiple ways of solving problems. Unfortunately the teacher was having none of this. He dictated to his students exactly how he wanted them to write the programs. This was very disappointing and incredibly discouraging for my daughter. Let the students struggle a little bit, and let them find ways to complete their assignments. When they're done present some of the students' solutions to the class, and talk about how they solved the assignment and discuss alternatives. You'll need to be respectful. People that are new to programming can be pretty sensitive about their code, so make sure you take that into account. You don't want to make somebody feel stupid, especially when they probably worked very hard on completing the assignment. Lastly, maybe you should consider a different language. Maybe you should consider Python or even C++.

  • Don't confuse them (Score:5, Insightful)

    by chrism238 ( 657741 ) on Saturday March 07, 2015 @05:31PM (#49206391)
    Firstly, don't confuse the students by telling them it's Computer Science, if it's only simple programming.
    • Dijkstra said, "'It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."

      Why did he say that? Because BASIC teaches people to only 'get it to work.' They don't start thinking about what could go wrong, they become copy-paste programmers. To overcome this, you need to start thinking about every possible case.

      As far as teaching kids.....you are missing a lot if you don't lo

      • On the flip side, near instant gratification of "getting it to work" is good for education - keeps students interested and involved if they have quick successs.

        Of course, once it is "just working" *then* you can start getting your students to think about edge cases, logical errrors, validating user input, etc.

  • I think I owe everything to this book:
    http://www.amazon.com/Brain-ga... [amazon.com]

    26 short (1-2K) games/puzzles - you have the source, can you solve the puzzles?

  • the changing semantics of languages and APIs will change — best way to teach the sort of mental discipline is to abstract it to the level of chess —

    then using something like SDLTRS to run an old version of TRS80 or Apple II Basic, and have them solve simple problems (like Towers of Hannoi, generating Prime Numbers, Loop and Display their name 1000x on the screen).

    keep it simple.

    2cents
    jp

  • Use Logo (Score:4, Insightful)

    by wiredlogic ( 135348 ) on Saturday March 07, 2015 @05:34PM (#49206419)

    Implement a turtle-based drawing API and build a curriculum that introduces programming concepts with turtle graphics.

  • yes I get it. You have a child and have the urge to tell the world about it.
    This is Slashdot. It used to be news for nerds, shit that MATTERS .... How about you come back in 2 years and ask the following.

    "How do I get my child to be a kernel hacker since he/she already outgrew fucking basic !?!?!?"

    Look he/she made potty on the toilet .... twitter that shit!

  • I cut my teeth on BASIC on an Apple ][+, and wrote my first professional-grade program (a math tutor) on it when I was 12. I have a lot of fondness for BASIC. These days, if I were to teach a kid any language, it would be Python. It has the easy syntax of BASIC with the added advantages of (a) a rich enough API set for everything from web development through machine learning (b) being an actual marketable skill in places like Silicon Valley.

    I'm not saying BASIC is a bad choice, just that I think there are m

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Alrescha ( 50745 )

      " These days, if I were to teach a kid any language, it would be Python. It has the easy syntax of BASIC with the added advantages of (a) a rich enough API set for everything from web development through machine learning (b) being an actual marketable skill in places like Silicon Valley."

      Not to mention that whole "white space is significant" aspect, so as to give them early knowledge of the arbitrary nature of working with business types in the future...

      A. (only 1/2 a :-)

  • The first things anybody needs to learn about programming are generic in terms of language. They're concepts. Branches, loops, function calls, and maybe even classes and delegates are all within range of exercises off of the machine. This approach can go well beyond basic. I'll describe it generally but apply as needed.

    Here's a template: Split students into groups of three. One person must come up with non-ambiguous instructions to complete a task, such as taking balled up sheets of paper out of a b
  • This is what I leaned on when I was 10 - and I can't think of anything better to teach kids basic programming skills. This was a operating system that had basic built in, and you just programmed right into the OS, and ran right from the OS. I can't think of anything simpler. The simplicity of it also allowed for the learner to just focus on logic and programming. I truly think it's the best possible learning tool. Even graphics were simple - nothing fancy - just lines and set/reset statements, paint stateme
  • BASIC is a really, really bad language to teach anything about computing. If you want to equip them for the world of work, go for Java or C# (which are more or less the same, from a learner's point of view, and neither is hard). If you want to teach a deep understanding of algorithms and how computers work, Clojure or Scheme would be good choices.

    • Well, with pointing to Closure and Scheme and then claiming it teaches you how a computer works, you are far away from those guys who claim you need to program the bare metal to learn just that.

      BASIC is an excellent language, as long as it is not a VisualBasic variation. No idea from what the hate comes.

      BASIC has basic datatypes, like float, int, string. It has functions, built in and user defined, arrays and "basic" file/input/output capabilities.

      More you don't need to start, and it has a REPL command line

  • Basic? are you killing future competition? (Score:3)

    by citizenr ( 871508 ) on Saturday March 07, 2015 @05:58PM (#49206571) Homepage

    Are you actively trying to make them future TERRIBLE programmers?

  • Guido van Robot! (Score:3)

    by ernest.cunningham ( 972490 ) on Saturday March 07, 2015 @06:02PM (#49206611) Homepage

    http://gvr.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]

    Why reinvent the wheel. Check out Guido van Robot, a programming language that teaches all the basics of programming (problem solving, sequence, iteration and decision making).

    Best yet, it already has fun progressive lessons that are perfect for teaching in the classroom.
    http://gvr.sourceforge.net/les... [sourceforge.net]

    Whatever you do, remember, start with sequence, then iteration, decision making and ultimately wrap it up with problem solving.

  • Start with the basics. Teach them the foundational mathematical principles so that they have a command over the base ideas before throwing them into a text editor with a strange new language/syntax. If you want those kids to really learn CS, you need them to understand the math first. I mean, if the goal is to show kids what computers can do with code... then just throw them into the code , but if the goal is for them to understand how they're doing those things... you should start with mathematical logic.

  • Check out The BASIC Book [tedfelix.com], an oldie-but-goodie by Seymour Simon. Nice-and-simple 32-page illustrated intro to BASIC!

  • Easy (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mwvdlee ( 775178 ) on Saturday March 07, 2015 @06:26PM (#49206723) Homepage

    1. Drop the Applesoft BASIC clone.
    2. Create a programming language that natively interfaces with Facebook API, Minecraft API or whatever other software project they actually care about.
    3. Show them a "Hello world" example.
    4. Wait five minutes.
    5. Classroom full of programmers.

  • What year is it? I loved basic in 1990, but this is not the right technology to use today.
  • Do small programs that a kid can do in one session.

    Don't bother trying graphics and video games - when they realize how much time and effort it takes, they will become very discouraged.

    Do something like an adventure game, magic eightball or eliza variation.

    Why (just) BASIC? Mix in HTML/CSS/JavaScript. Better yet, do Arduino projects and get both programming and electronics.

  • Basic as a language is tedious, user unfriendly, and not problem oriented. Java is a lot better. My kids 6. and 8. grade took Stanfords CS101, and I was truly impressed with how fun it was for them, as well as what they could accomplice.

    Everything is done right in the browser. Try it out for yourself. Khan academy has tried a "fun game" in java approach, but this is much less focussed and kids seem to tire of it as soon as they have made the limo break the sound barrier.

    1. A lot of graphical processing, lik

  • negative comments? (Score:4, Informative)

    by Pro923 ( 1447307 ) on Saturday March 07, 2015 @08:48PM (#49207355)
    I see a lot of negative comments pertaining to teaching basic as a first step in understanding how to code. I respectfully disagree. I believe that basic removes all of the complexity that gets in the way of learning pure logic skills. I don't see any sense in teaching kids to program and having pointers or even compiling and linking when the best thing for them to learn is the purity of understanding how to create simple algorithms to solve problems. If they show an interest, they can figure out more complex things like compilers, and the complexities of lower level languages like C. I stated in another comment, I learned how to code on a TRS80 color computer, and I think it was invaluable to master that before moving on to more complex and real-world things...

    • BASIC was what you described... 30 years ago. Today, we have better languages that go about "removing all the complexity" in a better way. Python, for example.

    • I see a lot of negative comments pertaining to teaching basic as a first step in understanding how to code. I respectfully disagree. I believe that basic removes all of the complexity that gets in the way of learning pure logic skills.

      I kind of agree, it worked for me.
      When i was 12, i self taught Qbasic and wrote a simple program. 10 years later, i went back into programming and self taught C, a year after that i learned C++.

      "Self taught" is the key. Most people cant achieve knowledge/skill in an area, unless they have the interest and a drive to do so. Programming isnt for everyone. However, looking back, i honestly believe a "programming" lesson at school could of changed my careerer, regardless of the language.

      Now my programming skill

  • Please do not abuse your children... (Score:3)

    by gweihir ( 88907 ) on Saturday March 07, 2015 @08:51PM (#49207359)

    ... by trying to teach them the worst abomination of a programming language under the sun. Even a good macro-assembler is better. I also strongly advise you to stay away from Java and JavaScript. These languages are only for experts that already have serious skills, all other develop very bad habits using them. Possible candidates if you really want to teach them are Python, Ruby and maybe Lua. But seriously, CS concepts are not something you teach with a language, that would be like teaching them to use a pen of a specific color instead of teaching how to write.

    • With a macro assembler you can produce an infinite number of run time errors. No beginner will graps what is going wrong.

      As bad as BASIC might be, it is certainly 100 times better than assembler.

      I would use a REPL language, likely Groovy. Another alternative would be SmallTalk, but I guess the "jump into it" might be to hard for one who never coded.

  • I mean seriously. One of the strongest arguments for basic is that you don't need to teach someone functions to start a program. With the goto statement in Lua, you got that. At the very least, once the student knows lua and goes on to other things, it will be useful if he ever needs to use it as a scripting language.

  • BASIC teaches concepts but really isn't a usable skill in the marketplace anymore. Try Ruby, Java or even C.

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  • These really aren't the same things. If you want to teach the computer science, the best thing you can do for them is teach them math instead of BASIC.

    If you're talking about programming, the best strategy is to find something they really enjoy doing and show them how they can use programming to solve a problem that involves that something. It's a lot easier to teach someone how to use a tool if they have a practical use for the tool.

  • In the old days, the best way to teach programming with basic started and finished with LOAD "C"....

  • You've already failed miserably (Score:4, Interesting)

    by LostMyBeaver ( 1226054 ) on Sunday March 08, 2015 @11:48AM (#49209725)
    You haven't identified the problem you're trying to solve. At least you made a huge mistake of asking here since you're asking for opinions from an extremely opinionated community without taking the time to actually identify what it is that you're actually having problems with. It seems you just haven't even bothered thinking about it.

    1) Are you trying to teach CS to children? Is this the goal? Have you considered asking whether people with legitimate pedagogical sciences experience and studies have identified methods of teaching children topics of this type?

    2) Are you asking if there are other tested methods of teaching children computer science which have proven effective that can be adapted to the tool you want to use?

    3) Are you in love with a certain tool and while it has almost no practical value to anyone else, you considered it might be a great way to teach kids and now you want to see how you can justify the existence of such a tool (which should simple be, it was fun to make) by trying to use it in CS education of children because "Hey back in the 80's I used AppleSoft Basic and learned from that!"

    4) Have you stopped for a minute to decide whether you're narrowing your scope so much by choosing a specific tool and language that your first goal should have been "How do I teach kids CS?" and then "Are there any learning platforms already available for this?" and then "What are the benefits of making a new learning platform using a language like BASIC when the rest of the world, using well funded pedagogical studies have chosen alternative approaches?"

    5) Why are you trying to choose a language as a tool. You want to teach principles and things like linked lists and design patterns just are damn near impossible to implement in your language. Any form of real math is also shit in BASIC. Yes, we managed to do these things back when a PASCAL compiler cost $400 and a cheese burger cost $2 and BASIC was free. We have moved on.

    6) What are you actually hoping to teach with BASIC? Are you trying to teach them how to draw a line on a screen? Are you trying to teach them to do math? Teach them to do something more applied? What kind of tasks do you actually plan on teaching them? Did you honestly put any thought into this at all.

    I know I'm tearing you up here, but I hope you'll consider it tough love. You're trying to mess with children's minds. This is more than just a fun toy... you need to consider the implications of things like "If I teach them BASIC today, will it actually assist in building interest in kids that otherwise would have never programmed or will it chase off the kids who thought it might be fun but were scared to try and now will never try again because it was too nerdy."

    There are people who spend decades researching how to introduce topics like this into schools. They don't just say "Hey wouldn't it be great if we made them play with this for a bit!". These people instead are educated not only as engineers but as school teachers. Most of them have at least one masters and one bachelors and they think in terms of "How can we most productively introduce a topic like programming and CS to children" and then they research it with teachers, parents and children.

    I think you are very cool for being interested in getting involved.... I hope I gave you some food for thought and I really hope you take your ambitions further and accomplish your goals... once you figure out what they are.

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