Ask Slashdot: Have You Ever 'Ghosted' an Employer? (linkedin.com) 604
"Suddenly, calls and texts went unreturned," writes LinkedIn's editor at large, describing a recruiter who suddenly discovered the candidate she'd wanted to hire failed to respond to 12 messages, including emails like "Please let me know that you have not been kidnapped by aliens. I'm worried about you," and even a snail-mailed greeting card. Recruiters complain that prospective employees are now borrowing a practice from dating -- and "ghosting" recruiters and employers to let them know that they're not interested.
"Candidates agree to job interviews and fail to show up, never saying more. Some accept jobs, only to not appear for the first day of work, no reason given, of course. Instead of formally quitting, enduring a potentially awkward conversation with a manager, some employees leave and never return. Bosses realize they've quit only after a series of unsuccessful attempts to reach them.... Meredith Jones, an Indianapolis-based director of human resources for a national restaurant operator, now overbooks interviews, knowing up to 50 percent of candidates for entry-level roles likely won't show up."
Long-time Slashdot reader NormalVisual writes, "It'd be interesting to hear Slashdotters' experience with this." Have you ever ghosted a potential employer, or perhaps more relevant, have you ever been ghosted by a potential employer during the hiring process? Do you feel it's unprofessional, or simple justice for the behavior of some companies when the balance of power was more on their side?
Inc. magazine blames the low unemployment rate and "the effects technology have had on the communication style of younger generations." But leave your own thoughts in the comments.
Does ghosting show a lack of professionalism, or is it simple payback for the way corporations treated job-seekers in the past? And have you ever "ghosted" an employer?
"Candidates agree to job interviews and fail to show up, never saying more. Some accept jobs, only to not appear for the first day of work, no reason given, of course. Instead of formally quitting, enduring a potentially awkward conversation with a manager, some employees leave and never return. Bosses realize they've quit only after a series of unsuccessful attempts to reach them.... Meredith Jones, an Indianapolis-based director of human resources for a national restaurant operator, now overbooks interviews, knowing up to 50 percent of candidates for entry-level roles likely won't show up."
Long-time Slashdot reader NormalVisual writes, "It'd be interesting to hear Slashdotters' experience with this." Have you ever ghosted a potential employer, or perhaps more relevant, have you ever been ghosted by a potential employer during the hiring process? Do you feel it's unprofessional, or simple justice for the behavior of some companies when the balance of power was more on their side?
Inc. magazine blames the low unemployment rate and "the effects technology have had on the communication style of younger generations." But leave your own thoughts in the comments.
Does ghosting show a lack of professionalism, or is it simple payback for the way corporations treated job-seekers in the past? And have you ever "ghosted" an employer?
unprofessional, but turnabout? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't condone this behavior at all. It's unprofessional and disrespectful. If you make a commitment to show up for an interview or accept a job, you should be there. But through the eyes of my child who is attempting to enter the workforce, being rejected with no feedback at all is frustrating. I don't expect every employer to spend hours coaching rejected applicants, but a simple statement of why would go a long way. I can understand the rational of a prospective employee that's been through application after application with no responses or rejections that just say, "no". Very few are giving the overwhelming number of applicants that courtesy, why should it be returned?
It's wrong on both sides. Everybody needs to step up and communicate better.
Re:unprofessional, but turnabout? (Score:5, Insightful)
Some of them don't even let you know that you didn't get it, let alone why.
Turnabout's fair play.
Re:unprofessional, but turnabout? (Score:5, Insightful)
Ummm...no.
The employers you are ghosting are the ones who hired you, and presumably treated you right. The employers who are ghosting you are the ones who DID NOT HIRE YOU.
You are punishing person B because person A pissed you off.
The fact that one person (or company, or whatever) has not treated you right does not give you license to be a dick to everyone.
Re:unprofessional, but turnabout? (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree it's fair, but it's not smart. If an employer is still interested in you and you've moved on, no need to alienate them by just ghosting-- if you say "thanks, but this isn't a fit" or "I've found something else"-- it means that whatever positive impression you've created with them can possibly still be useful to you in the future instead of creating a few people who feel the opposite.
Re:unprofessional, but turnabout? (Score:4, Insightful)
Turnabout is ghosting an employer who has a history of not telling applicants that they've been rejected.
Ghosting an innocent employer because a different employer didn't do you the courtesy of letting you know, is a race to the bottom which hurts everyone. You're just inflicting bad behavior onto other innocents, under the justification that because it was done to you it's OK for you to do it to others even if they're innocent. The employer who didn't tell you they'd gone with someone else for the job probably felt justified in not informing you because too many candidates were no-shows for scheduled interviews. And turnabout is fair play after all, right?
Re:unprofessional, but turnabout? (Score:5, Informative)
I don't expect every employer to spend hours coaching rejected applicants, but a simple statement of why would go a long way.
I've heard that a lot of lawyers advise against this, because in some jurisdictions it opens up a risk of a candidate then claiming some form of illegal discrimination has taken place if they don't like the official version. It's a bit like insurers saying you must not say "sorry" if you've been involved in a collision on the road, because it can be taken as an admission of responsibility in subsequent legal matters, even if you were just being polite/friendly and knew very well that the other person caused the crash. In some places, I think there are now laws that explicitly prevent the latter problem; maybe some sort of "protection of honest recruiting feedback" law would help with the former?
Re: (Score:3)
I've heard that a lot of lawyers advise against this, because in some jurisdictions it opens up a risk of a candidate then claiming some form of illegal discrimination has taken place if they don't like the official version.
Okay, but in California, they are required to give you a reason if you ask. And they still do their best to just ghost you and not give you that information, because they have no respect for the law.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I've heard that a lot of lawyers advise against this, because in some jurisdictions it opens up a risk of a candidate then claiming some form of illegal discrimination has taken place if they don't like the official version.
That's when the company needs to tell the lawyer to stop being a lazy piece of shit and do their fucking job.
You (the lawyer) is being paid to review the replies to be sent specifically to make sure it isn't an illegal form of discrimination. This is to be accomplished not by refusing to send a reply, but by sending a reply that is worded legally.
I know for certain in my state there are explicitly legal forms of discrimination to be used.
One position to fill, more than one candidate. It is completely lega
Re:unprofessional, but turnabout? (Score:4, Interesting)
It's a bit silly, because the company can say something very generic, like "position was already filled" or "candidate did not meet the positions technical requirements". As long as there's any objective basis, there's no good grounds for a lawsuit (e.g., if the company claims the candidates code during the interview wasn't good enough, how could you prove that they actually thought it was good enough).
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
Employers "ghost" people all the time. Sometimes it's for legal reasons, like not hiring a candidate because of their race/religion/etc so you don't want to give them a reason to sue, but honestly it's mostly because they don't care and there's 3 more applicants waiting for your spot.
I have absolutely no reservations about ghosting employers. Not only do they ghost applicants on a regular basis or turn them down without any explanation with some boilerplate rejection letter, I've been asked to so many interviews where I was confronted by some corporate dingleberry who had obviously been too lazy to read even the front page of my CV (which describes the career of a veteran Unix/C/C++ developer and takes about 60 seconds to read) ask me how good I am at C# and various types of Windows pro
Re: (Score:2)
Indeed. Disrespect breeds disrespect and prospective employers are the ones to set an example.
Re: (Score:2)
We have tried a number of hiring strategies over the years, from highly targeted to wide blankets. We had one position (office manager) in the peak of the recession that we had over 30 interviews for, and I am afraid we didn't get back to everyone in a professional way -- but neither did they. Our lack of response was due primarily to the fact that our office manager had just quit and we were scrambling to find a replacement.
But, the lack of useful feedback is generally a legal issue. we can tell a recru
Re: (Score:2)
And let's not forget employers, mostly restaurants, who hire more people than they need. A new locally owned restaurant did this very thing by touting in the newspaper they were hiring 40+ people.
A former employee told me, "Only after being fired did we know the first two weeks of work were part of the interview process."
For the next two months she received a call every time someone quit, "After the fifth call I told them not to call again. And they said with that attitude I shouldn't have applied in the fi
Don't be sour, dear recruiter (Score:5, Insightful)
It's only what you've been doing to your merchandise for ages.
My sent email box contains literally hundreds of emails to just about that many recruiters that at best completely ignored me. At best because they might also add me to their "database" and have their spambot send me things that are usually completely unrelated to what I'm interested in, every half year or so. That's how I know I'm at the bottom of their barrel and will never ever get a decent offer from them. So I report those emails as spam. Because, a little respect would be nice. But I've never had any from recruiters. Plenty of abuse, though. Down to spending time and effort on a phone interview only to learn that the advertised job didn't actually exist. They kept on advertising that nonexistent job of course.
No sympathy for recruiters finding the chickens are coming home to roost.
Re: (Score:2)
I wish I had moderator points, your post is pure reality
Re: (Score:3)
Honestly, going through this now. Had four recruiters from the same company tell me I have a great resume, can they send it out, etc. I did get an interview out of it but it’s been silence after that. One of the four had my resume from a previous attempt, had supposedly gotten me an interview, I sat in my car waiting for the call and nothing, and then had stopped communicating until his colleague was working with me.
In thinking back, I don't think a recruiter has ever gotten me a job, and I think this
Someone with a byline just discovered this? (Score:4, Insightful)
Personal experience, yes, though not specifically in "tech" industry. Pre-college I found quite a few potential employers who gave me enough of a suspicious feel that I never called back. Even after setting a start date. They just seemed shady and most of them proved to be. The rest, I just don't know if the managers or businesses are still around.
Post-college, no, I am still working at the first firm where I landed a full-time regular professional position (Diagnostic/Medical). Not same position I started in, of course.
However, we have had people do this throughout my time here and it is striking that the author would find it new.
Maybe it'll send a message to employers.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
I had this with the people who run the camp where Niantic has their events in California. They said they really wanted to hire me, then they just stopped returning my emails. I'm guessing they discovered my social media presence and found out that I have morals and standards. They don't seem to feel they owe us anything, why would we feel any differently?
Re: Maybe it'll send a message to employers.. (Score:3, Informative)
With regards to the main questions (Score:5, Insightful)
"Does ghosting show a lack of professionalism, or is it simple payback for the way corporations treated job-seekers in the past?"
Yes to both.
Next question?
Re:With regards to the main questions (Score:5, Interesting)
How come when a corporation treats a single person like shit it is "a standard part of free market" and when a single person treats a corporation like this it is "unprofessional"?
Re: With regards to the main questions (Score:5, Insightful)
Unless that retail store is successful and cares about their people; then they will tell obnoxious customers to fuck off.
The issue is that HR doesn't know the first thing about working with anything but a captive and abused labor pool. When they have to deal with labor that can afford self respect, HR doesn't have a fucking clue how to pivot from unprofessional asshole to engaged sycophant.
Monkey see, monkey do. (Score:5, Interesting)
Respect and professionalism go both ways. Many businesses that rely on skilled professionals forgot this during the recession, and now that most of the desperation has settled back into baseline disgruntlement, they're in a bad fuckin' way.
The trend for the last decade and a half has been for employers, potential or actual, to disregard common courtesy to employees, potential or actual - even in what would be considered "professional" positions. Let's take a look at what the average person's job search looks like these days:
- A couple weeks or months of having to eat piles of shit in the process of submitting resumes by having to deal with the subcontracted, third-party resume ingestion services that everyone uses now. If you haven't yet had the pleasure of spending an 8 hour day getting your resume submitted to 10 or 12 total positions, you cannot begin to understand how much you begin to absolutely loathe every living being after doing this for weeks.
- Getting calls upon calls from (quick, call me a racist) Indian headhunters or HR drones whose job is to get you just far enough along that they can credibly reject you so they can put a fig leaf over the H1B they're going to hire anyway
- Never, ever getting anything more than a form email that explains absolutely nothing about why you were rejected for the position that you spent an hour tailoring a resume for because it looks like an ideal fit and you actually meet all of the inflated requirements
- Delay upon delay upon delay. Even if you get accepted, it might take them weeks to get around to finalizing your employment. If something comparable or better comes up in the mean time that will get you actually started sooner, who wouldn't take it?
Employers who actually have recurring problems with getting ghosted by recruits need to take a serious look at what they're doing wrong. Hint: It's probably acting like royalty and not paying wages that seriously motivate.
Re:Monkey see, monkey do. (Score:5, Informative)
having to eat piles of shit in the process of submitting resumes by having to deal with the subcontracted, third-party resume ingestion services that everyone uses now
Pretty much this. I understand this streamlines the process for the box-tickers at HR, but from a job-seeker's point of view it is a bloody nightmare.
By the way, a company could do worse than just fire the lot in charge of centralized vetting of job applicants. I once advised a colleague who was recruiting people for his team, to ask HR for the resumes they rejected. I can't say the resumes passed by HR were that much better than those in the reject pile, and the latter had some good candidates in it. When I asked HR myself to post some job openings, the questions they asked me about the requirements were inane at best. I struggle to see what actual value they (or those resume ingestion services) add in this process.
Re:Monkey see, monkey do. (Score:5, Informative)
> By the way, a company could do worse than just fire the lot in charge of centralized vetting of job applicants. I once advised a colleague who was recruiting people for his team, to ask HR for the resumes they rejected.
This is very true for open source work. The related projects on which the best candidates worked do not match the checklist of tools familiar to many HR personnel. If it's possible, it's invaluable to work with HR and help them understand the _related software_. I once had an applicant list work related to our critical project, but rejected by HR because they did not list the software buzzword. Since they _wrote_ the buzzworded software decades ago and had moved on, they were the best possible candidate to support out out-of-date version and help us migrate to the newer tools. And that was what we wished to hire someone for.
Its Better to Ghost than for Recruiters to lie... (Score:5, Interesting)
From Personal Experience, I had an interview arranged by a Recruiter with an Engineering Company. However, it became apparent very quickly that the recruiter was incredibly dishonest.
After going to the interview, I was informed by the Recruiter that the Company in question wanted to make an offer in person and he quoted a very generous salary. When I went to the Company in person again, the contract they showed was a signifcantly lower salary! I did raise this with my Interviewer who said they hadn't agreed a Salary with the recruiter.
I had decided then that I did not want the Job and informed the Recruiter that I was declining the offer. However, he was adamant to try and get me to accept it in comically rediculous ways by telling me that the role was upgraded to a Project Manager role! I still told him directly that I declined the offer and decided that I would 'ghost' all Phone Calls from this crook.
About 1.5 Weeks later, I was getting texts from the Engineering Company in question asking for me to give them a call back. I did and was greeted with "Whats Going on! The Recruitment Consultant said he was unable to get in touch with you" to which I responded by telling him that I told the Consultant that I declined the offer over a week ago. This turned out to be news to him as he was never informed by the Recruiter about this.
Its hard to sympathize with Recruiters who post crappy articles on Linkedin about how great they are or Candidates are ghosting them when they take this piss like this!
My Take (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3)
One of the reasons employers "ghost" employees is to wait until the first candidate is actually on-site and started on their first day with all the paperwork signed. There are so many candidates who decline at the last moment for a better fiscal offer or better work location, and for senior employees a health issue is sometimes a risk. By failing to reject other candidates until then, they try to keep the pool of acceptable but not first choice candidates available. And there may be other good candidates i
Re: My Take (Score:2)
"At this time we have filled the role, but were impressed with your resume; if you'd like we will continue to consider you for future positions."
Re: My Take (Score:2)
That took me ten seconds; HR drones are incompetent assholes.
Fix your labour law (Score:5, Informative)
To be honest, I never even considered that people accepting jobs and not showing up would be an issue - (while I speak mostly from the perspective of the German labour law, I believe this is also the case for most other European countries) both parties have an obligation once the employment contract is signed, with the employer being in their right to seek damages for every day that you do not show up and do your job, as agreed. The flip side of this is that it's also quite difficult for the employer to refuse leave requests by the employee, with a far wider range of allowable absences than what would be tolerated on the US side. I am certainly guilty of having interviewed at companies that were competitors at the same time and playing them against each other to up the offer, but I would never have signed something and then try to weasel out of it when something better comes along. On the other hand, I have also seen people take jobs they didn't necessarily want while continuing to look for better ones, and then simply quit their other job during their probation period (typically a 6 month period in which either side is able to terminate the relationship without cause). Once someone has to begin paying damages for every day they don't show up for work (or obtains sufficient awareness of this potentiality), I would imagine people would be a bit more careful about when and what they sign, and the problem would gradually correct itself.
I'm suprised that they're surprised (Score:5, Interesting)
Non-responsiveness on the part of HR/recruiters isn't just common - after a while, I just assumed it was 'standard practice'.
I don't expect a detailed response from every resume I send in, but I do expect a response if I have gone thru an interview, especially if it included someone from the executive suite. It can be demoralizing to meet with a hiring manager and their boss (maybe a VP), have it go well (smiles all around), then radio silence. At least have the courtesy of an email stating 'We appreciate the time and energy you put into the process, but...'.
I have to agree with the other posters that the recruiters created the environment in which this developed.
Having said all that, I cannot condone an employee accepting a position, filling out some forms, then not showing up to the first day of work. That borders on a sort of fraud or breech: if you went thru the process of filling out onboarding docs, there is a very strongly implied and expressed intent, by both parties, to commit to each other. But then, I suppose some people don't show to their own weddings...
It boils down to standards of behavior - for all aspects of life. And respect. If we develop a society that says that a free-wheeling economy where anything goes is the norm, how to you expect job-seekers *not* to be influenced by that?
Might wind up with the Police at your home (Score:5, Insightful)
Over the years, I've heard of several people "ghosting" their employers. However, in these cases, it was because they had passed away at home, and they lived alone. Since the employer doesn't know why the employee has stopped coming in, they call the police for a wellness check. The police arrive and find the person has passed on.
Long story short, don't ghost, or you may be treated is if you might have become one.
Don't hate the player, hate the game. (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the rules I live by is that everyone deserves respect until they demonstrate otherwise.
If you're going to insult me with a shit contract that's guaranteed to screw me when we part ways, why would you expect anything from me but contempt?
How about burn-out? (Score:5, Interesting)
It's all about Respect. (Score:2)
Employees are treated as disposable.
Minimum wage jobs are many and varied, and people are likely to jump on the first one thy can get just to pay the bills.
There are too many employers that treat their staff as little more than an inconvenience on top of everything.
Who gets a Christmas Bonus anymore? What employers even offer them?
It's little wonder why people ghost recruiters (vampires) and employers down here at the lowest end of the pay scale. They have nothing to loose. Any employer that checks referenc
Rejections (Score:2)
Has anyone ever received a rejection call from an employer? Cause I sure haven't. If employers want people to tell them they are not accepting a job offer, then those employers damn well better be calling everyone who did NOT get the job.
If you haven't been paid, you don't owe them shit.
My last recruiter was very good (Score:2)
They always responded quickly and pushed on the employer and even helped me get a higher salary than they were offering. Of course they were based locally. These recruiters calling from across the pacific that I can barely understand, those companies should be run out of business.
Companies have been doing this for years (Score:2)
Disturbing (Score:2)
Bad behavior of employers.. (Score:2)
I haven't been job hunting in recent years, but definitely have found employers to be very inconsiderate on this matter. I've never ghosted..
Also have been surprised to hear people with hourly retail or food service jobs walked out immediately after giving two weeks notice. Puts people in a bind who are depending on steady pay. I advise college age workers to pay attention to how their employer operates and act accordingly..
Serves them right (Score:2)
So first of all how often do you even get told why they didn't hire you after the interview. Pretty much never. If you're lucky they'll tell you that you weren't the right fit. However most likely they'll either tell you nothing or bald faced lie to you. (Yes, I'm sure you didn't hire me because you found the absolute perfect candidate, that's why you reposted the exact same job with the exact same job number
Sorta, but not really. (Score:4, Interesting)
2 different stories.
1) I took a contract position, 6 months. At this place, the guy responsible for ensuring contracts were renewed was a flake. 1st time, I asked the day my contract ended and he didn't know anything about it. I said, no contract, no work. Left at the end of the day. Monday rolled around and I didn't show up. He was panicked, working to get the extension pushed through, but it would be 2-3 more days. ... we need you today." he said. "I"m across the country, skiing, can't be back until the following Monday." I said. That happened 3 more times over the 9 yrs I worked there.
6 months later, I didn't mention the contract was expiring and planned a week vacation without telling anyone. Skiing. Contract expired on Friday and I flew off to SLC for a week of epic skiing. Monday morning, got a cell phone call asking where I was. "Contract ended Friday", I said. "Oh
The last time, they decided that a contractor should be an employee if they worked there more than 2 yrs. Smart, but not for me. My contract ended in early November, so I planned to travel about 6 months in Asia after the Holidays spent with family in different states. I didn't mention this to anyone at work. 3 days prior to the contract end, the boss texts that he'd gotten the "employee paperwork" approved so I could switch over on Monday. That was the first I'd heard about that idea. I didn't want to be an employee. They'd asked a few times over the years, but I always turned them down. I said no thanks and wished him luck. Turned out that 80% of the people in my group who were contractors had decided the same thing. He was desperate.
2) Interviewed for a position at a major DoD company where I'd fill 2 positions they had opened due to my skills. It was clear that I was a perfect fit, because I'd already had a clearance and my degree would directly support flight testing of a new aircraft (deployed now and kicking ass). Nobody I spoke with was qualified to interview me on anything technical. This was quickly known. I'd loose more knowledge in computing if I worked there than I ever gained.
The boss finally came in and told me all the ways I'd be fired for about 10 minutes. He was an old, gruff, ex-military type, who felt he needed to control start, lunch, end times. 5 minutes late 3 times would mean I was fired. No thanks.
I left the interview and never contacted them again. A week later, the boss called asking where I was on the job. I told him I'd accepted a position at a less hostile workplace where they respected employees. His response,"oh."
Poor communications, in both directions, is where the failure happens. At hiring time, the prospective employees have all the power. It is the last time any employee has much real power, often.
When I did hiring, I was looking for a "good fit" for both sides. We needed smart people who would be able to fit into the culture and do great work. If the applicant doesn't like us, they won't enjoy work, which is bad too. 2-way street. We were pretty relaxed, but about 3 days a month, we'd have customers and needed to dress up a little more and keep the spitballs to a minimum. It was a software development house.
I'm sensing a grand sense of entitlement (Score:3)
A lot of the comments above are expressing the notion that employers often don't respond the candidates so therefore this sort of behavior is fine.
I'd like to say I strongly disagree. In my experience especially when I was more junior and making applications for jobs in the middle of a recession, I've never had expectations that an employer will personally respond to me.
Normally when employers advertise for work, very often they get a lot of applications, as a candidate I've always expected this and never had any expectation that the employer would personally respond to let me know that I hadn't been selected. Occasionally they did and I always thought it exceedingly polite, but when they it never occurred to me to be slighted by the act. Furthermore, I've expected that when I'm applying for a position, if I haven't heard from the employer within a few days that I need to touch base with them and confirm that they actually have received my application, then if they have ask them if they're still interested in my candidacy and if not ask for feedback on why.
Very often I believe being proactive and periodically contacting the employer whilst they're in the middle of their recruitment process is actually quite influential and often be the deciding factor on the success of a job application.
Considering the reverse... being offered a position or job interview and then simply not responding or turning up is extremely unprofessional. There's a major difference between these two things that most in this discussion don't seem to understand. An employer advertising a position and requesting applications for a job is very different to you making a personal commitment or signing contract with an employer. These are two completely different things and come with totally different etiquette, obligations and responsibilities, I don't see how they're interchangeable in any way at all. Such behaviour is disrespectful to the other candidates for the job as well as towards all the people who would have been put out at the company when you didn't show.
Re: No, but I donâ(TM)t work at McDonalds eit (Score:5, Interesting)
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The only time I've ever done it is with aggressive recruiters who don't take no for an answer.
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Ah, yes, _those_. The last time I had that, I told them that my hourly rate was $200 plus expenses and travel time and I would be happy to interview if they paid that in advance. Got the message across.
Re: No, but I donâ(TM)t work at McDonalds ei (Score:5, Funny)
I just ask for their firstborn.
On an unrelated note, is anybody interested in adopting a bunch of small children?
Re: (Score:3)
Brad,
Quit bothering these people. They have better things to do. Yes, from the basement!
Angelina
Re: No, but I donÃ(TM)t work at McDonalds eit (Score:2)
I was going to come here to say something about recruiters.
I've come to the asusmption that the default state of recruiters is to waste my time. In fairness to some recruiters who I know and who are very good, it's the bad 90% giving the good 10% a bad name.
Mostly they are a pain in the arse who are very coy about important details and string you along as long as possible on the belief that once they've "sold" you the job, you'll happily take something at under half the market rate...
I'd say my coversations
Re: No, but I don't work at McDonalds either (Score:3)
We use a number of useless recruiters for my company. I hate doing it (almost as much as I hate paying them 20% of the candidate's salary), but it reduces the hiring pain, especially when the market is tight.
Aside from admin positions, the only times we have been treated this way are people who are pretty full of themselves... or just clueless little shits. The absolute worst though is having someone in the office for a day or week, and they just decide to stop doing it. (Two people out of ~50 employees t
Re: No, but I donÃ(TM)t work at McDonalds eit (Score:5, Funny)
In fairness to some recruiters who I know and who are very good, it's the bad 90% giving the good 10% a bad name.
10% good? I think you're being generous!
Re: No, but I donâ(TM)t work at McDonalds ei (Score:5, Insightful)
Do this and word *will* get around. People know each other, and even if you don't list someone as a reference, they may get asked anyway.
I had one employee ghost me. She just stopped coming into the office. Did outstanding work, been with us for a while. But she took a sudden three day unplanned/unannounced absence, then a few weeks later another few days sudden/unplanned absence. We talked, she said they were vacations, sorry, thought I'd told you. Then a month later, she didn't come into work. No reply to emails or voicemails. Ghosted.
We sent a letter to terminate her, saying we assumed by not showing up for a week and a half, she had resigned.
And six months later, I get a call from someone I used to work with, long ago, at a different org. He was somewhere new too. He had an applicant who listed my org on their resume, didn't list me as a reference but wanted to know what I knew about her. Same employee.
She didn't get the job.
Re: No, but I donâ(TM)t work at McDonalds ei (Score:3)
I work in midtown Atlanta and run into the same people constantly. I work with people now, four companies later, that I was working with in 1999. I probably know at least a person or two at most tech companies with at least a few employees. The community here is surprisingly small and you never know who you'll run into.
Re: No, but I donâ(TM)t work at McDonalds ei (Score:3)
I work in the tech industry in NY Metro area and consistently run into the same crowd over and over.
Canâ(TM)t tell you how many times my paths have crossed ways with the same people in different roles/capacities/positions.
A burned bridge here can absolutely sink you ....
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Yours is the second post mentioning advertising non existent jobs? Wtf?
Can you explain why they would do this?
Re: No, but I donâ(TM)t work at McDonalds eit (Score:5, Insightful)
Get the mark into a position where they're eager to jump at anything, then go, "Damn, the company hired someone else, but I do have THIS job lined up!" which is about half the pay, but if you've already made moves that require you to have SOME kind of employment it'll suddenly sound much more attractive.
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Re: No, but I donâ(TM)t work at McDonalds eit (Score:5, Informative)
Yours is the second post mentioning advertising non existent jobs? Wtf?
Can you explain why they would do this?
There are lots of reasons:
1) The job is already filled internally but they are legally required to post it.
2) They have a new or existing employee and they are wanting to know what they employee is worth compared to other people.
3) There is a potential position and they do want to hire someone but they need to know what's out there and what it will cost
before getting approval for a salary range.
4) The job did really exist but they quickly found someone they liked but left the job "open" just in case the first person falls thru.
5) It's a position that frequently has openings and they want to be able to fill it quickly when an opening does happen.
There are likely a bunch of other similar reasons too but most probably fall into the two categories of
either "market research" and/or "job technically exists but is currently unavailable to be filled"
Re: No, but I donâ(TM)t work at McDonalds eit (Score:4, Insightful)
You're forgetting what is probably the most common that started years ago:
0. To fulfill the legal requirement that no qualified American could be found thereby allowing them to legally hire the foreigner they already decided to hire even before the position was advertised:
Most job interviews these days are no so much to determine whether you're qualified for the position or not, but rather to determine a legally valid reason to disqualify you for the position so that they can legally hire the foreigner they already decided to hire long ago!
Today's job market sucks. :(
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You'd be surprised the details some people leave on their resumes. Addresses, previous employers. All of this (especially the previous employers bit) is useful for future marketing campaigns and cold calling.
Re: No, but I donâ(TM)t work at McDonalds eit (Score:5, Informative)
Thee are many reasons. The most malicious is to steal your identity: many people are less careful of their personal details with a recruiter who is "running a background check". Or they may "bait and switch", offer you a less lucrative or less skilled role when you've already invested time and effort in making a good impression with them. There is also an infamous practice of advertising roles in the market and accepting only the intended, much cheaper, H1B candidate with spurious requirements. There is also an infamous bureaucratic practice of getting approved to hire various personnel, expanding the department headcount, but never actually hiring the personnel. That last is used to justify overtime and more office space or benefits for the staff onsite "until we can fill those slots".
There are many other reasons to present an opening that does not really exist. The penalty for withdrawing an advertised role is usually quite low, and the benefits can be quite high. So I'm afraid that some fraud there is inevitable.
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Yours is the second post mentioning advertising non existent jobs? Wtf?
Can you explain why they would do this?
A lot of companies are recruiting people in fishing expeditions. If a really excellent canditate interviews, they'll try to figure out a position for them. But basically, no, there isn't an actual job opening.
Where I worked, that was SOP.
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In "the big city", we use LinkedIn and Google and professional contacts from your last workplace. We see what you've posted, publicly, in technical mailing lists and sometimes even politically. If you applied to my workplace in a senior role, and I were unable to reach any of your former colleagues, I'd be concerned. I'd ask your permission before checking them for references. But the world can be surprisingly small at the senior level.
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However in the city theee is a lot of employee turn around. That employing manager at company X in 6 months can be a hiring manager at company Y.
He may have left X for Y for the same reasons why you didn’t like X. However he may remember your name and link it to the lack of professionalism, then portray his story to others.
I work in an average size city, when I switch jobs I tend to run into people who I have worked with in the past.
80% of jobs filled by networking, never listed (Score:3, Informative)
Between 70%-85% of job openings in private sector are never listed at all. Rather, when an opening happens, someone at the company knows somebody who would be a fit, typically someone they used to work with. That's how MOST jobs are filled.
My first salaried job in a big company was like that. I had worked with a guy doing "side gigs" and he knew I was passively looking for a new job - I would be interested if the right position came along. When the right position opened up in the agency he worked for, he ca
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etween 70%-85% of job openings in private sector are never listed at all.
All but the smallest employers in the US are required to list all jobs, and keep statistics on the race of those who apply for the jobs and the race of the person hired.
The "overly specific" job descriptions aren't all H1B scams, after all. (Heck, sometimes they're just stupid HR drones who don't realize listing the ideal candidate scares away real candidates.)
Re: No, but I donâ(TM)t work at McDonalds ei (Score:4, Insightful)
Companies don't show employees respect anymore - a gazillion interviews, testing, privacy invasion of social accounts, etc. and if you're not the candidate they're going to choose, they ghost you in a heartbeat.
Why should sought after employees treat companies any better than they treat employees who are seeking to work for them?
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I worked at a university and I've seen it happen twice in the group where I worked. One was a Russian guy who clearly didn't like his job, although he did his best trying to get good results. He disappeared one day, never to return. The other one was an Indian guy who seemed to be quite surprised that he had to do things for his money. He also didn't really like people criticising his work. He also disappeared, leaving us behind and happy, but he returned a few years later to ask for another job. That guy h
Newly hired manager never showed up (Score:3)
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Re: 32 year old here ... (Score:2)
I just phoned them to let them know that I'd found something else.
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True all that!
a recruiter who suddenly discovered the candidate she'd wanted to hire failed to respond to 12 messages
Anybody who uses "suddenly" like that doesn't need to be in charge of anything.
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get yourself a secretary. worth every penny.
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I tried to hire a secretary. Never showed up.
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True. Unfortunately, finding someone that will stick around for 5-10 years to the point that they are truly an executive assistant is hard, and longevity is what provides the value.
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Yes, that is the impression I get from watching Russian driving videos, "THAT is who I want driving our courier vehicles!"
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Let me just advise:
The USA scored high on the "Ignorance Index" not so long ago. I am not sure I'd like to have my employees from a country that score so high on this index. [motherjones.com]
Moral of story: It's ignorant and silly to use a small segment of a population to draw overreaching conclusions about a country. That country you despise is our only link to the ISS and beats us hands down in a number of tech fields.
Thing is, they do not brag about it. Neither do they throw their weight around that much.
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Translation: you are looking for slaves.
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Meredith Jones, an Indianapolis-based director of human resources for a national restaurant operator, now overbooks interviews, knowing up to 50 percent of candidates for entry-level roles likely won't show up."
An entry level role at a restaurant chain is going to be an incredibly shitty job. And likely to be taken by candidates who need the work pretty ASAP. If they've found something else they're at leat extending the restaurant more respect than they would have got if they'd been employed by ghosting ra
Re: That's the American employee for you... (Score:3)
I have seen it on both sides. It's not "foreigners". It's the type of person who has come over. Most of those are well educated or at least well bought up on honor and service (contrary to what many think).
But go oversees and see how foreman basically have to hire every morning for that days construction assignment. They don't expect the same person to come back more than a few days straight. They are so used to it that they are happy just getting the head count for the job.
Similar in call centers/factory
Re:That's the American employee for you... (Score:4, Interesting)
What company do you employ and what "authority" do you have?
Without divulging much, I can say this: -
I run a transport company - used to; to be strict as I am not that deeply involved now. Trust me, with our drivers, you are better off dealing with ``foreign brought up`` , but legally working American employees.
I can almost guarantee that in about a decade and a half, you will be seeing what I am seeing now. And yes, I [still] have influence in the affairs of this company.
Re:That's the American employee for you... (Score:5, Insightful)
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It makes complete sense. Trucking is a stressful job that takes a tremendous toll on your health and personal life. There's a trucker shortage right now and if you have a couple years experience and a clean driving record you can make some pretty decent money. Average first year pay driving for Walmart is over $80,000. Carriers that built their business models dependent on cheap labor are inevitably going to find it hard to keep drivers' butts in their seats.
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The experience is fairly similar to mine, and I am hiring white collar engineers. If I had to guess, 50% of our workforce are immigrants, another 35% first generation. Not really about money, just the breakdown of people we get today where we are. Salary is a lot less critical compared to ability to learn and personality.
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definitely a symptom of excessive affluence, this is a sign of how decadent the privileged have become, normal working people are too busy for this kind of self indulgent crap
I thinks its more certain people not being comfortable with that particular social interaction. They can't bear to actually tell someone something they don't want to hear, so they just avoid it.
Yes, it is highly unprofessional. And that HR recruiter or hiring manager might be working for another company someday, one that you just might be interested in.
Re: only a first worlder could come up with this (Score:5, Informative)
Techies are hired to tech. Not to socialize. HR is hired to socialize. The lack of professionalism is from HR departments across the board, not employees.
HR departments seem to be trained to deal with poor people with no skills, and so they treat everyone like an indentured servent. When they finally have to deal with skilled workers who won't take their shit, they get all indignant.
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Stop contributing to the idiocracy. Psychopathy is a specific set of personality traits, not a catch-all phrase for narcissistic assholes. Your mentioning of the ICD may confuse people into thinking your know something about that.
Also let's contribute to a positive development in language even online: replace pussy (which is what you were born out of) with coward which is apparently what you meant.
Re: Asshole move. (Score:2)
If you have time to deal with the jobs you're not getting, you are wasting your time.
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Years age we had a sysadmin move on to a new job and a year later apply back. He was a pretty good admin and I told the boss this. He got the job but “ghosted” us. Just not show up on the first day, Then a year later apply again. I asked him and he’d had another job he’d applied for that was better that accepted him so he took that one. I let the new boss that he was a good admin but he had simply not shown up for the first day last time. He didn’t get hired.
[John]
Re: Rude (Score:2)
While that's a notable anecdote, I wonder how many people apply to a place three times.
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Re: I was ghosted by a candidate (Score:2)
He obviously had better things to do.
Re: Why not? (Score:2)
Bullshit. If explaining why you are not hiring someone opens you up to legal liability, then your hiring practices are illegal and you should be ruined.
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I've had it where I make it to the final interviewer and they seem ecstatic over me. In the middle of the interview the wording changes from "the job entails" to "you will be doing X" and that and then the company goes silent after the interview