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Education Digital

Ask Slashdot: What Are Some Methods To Stop Digital Surveillance In Schools? 115

Posted by BeauHD from the digital-dystopia dept.
Longtime Slashdot reader Kreuzfeld writes: Help please: here in Lawrence, Kansas, the public school district has recently started using Gaggle (source may be paywalled; alternative source), a system for monitoring all digital documents and communications created by students on school-provided devices. Unsurprisingly, the system inundates employees with false 'alerts' but the district nonetheless hails this pervasive, dystopic surveillance system as a great success. What useful advice can readers here offer regarding successful methods to get public officials to backtrack from a policy so corrosive to liberty, trust, and digital freedoms?
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Ask Slashdot: What Are Some Methods To Stop Digital Surveillance In Schools? More

Ask Slashdot: What Are Some Methods To Stop Digital Surveillance In Schools?

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  • "school-provided devices" (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CaptainDork ( 3678879 ) on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @07:25PM (#64094688)

    When in school, follow the rules.

    Another tactic is to vote for officials who share your concerns.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by balaam's ass ( 678743 )

      It's crazy, my company does the same thing with the laptops they provide to us! When will this Orwellian nightmare end? ;-) jk

      • I had hoped, at least here on Slashdot, to find a few like-minded folks. Instead it feels like most people just saying "keep your head down, don't rock the boat, support the Man." Truly depressing!

        • There are two methods mentioned on Slashdot right now.
          Time will if implementation of one [slashdot.org] or the other [slashdot.org] across the system shows better results in shutting down surveillance of minors.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by jenningsthecat ( 1525947 )

          I had hoped, at least here on Slashdot, to find a few like-minded folks. Instead it feels like most people just saying "keep your head down, don't rock the boat, support the Man." Truly depressing!

          I'm with you. That "when in school, follow the rules" comment by CaptainDork is wrong-headed for a couple of reasons. The first one is that schools are taxpayer funded, and those rules should ultimately be approved or rejected by those taxpayers, specifically the parents of schoolkids.

          The second reason? Well, it's bloody dangerous to be teaching kids that when it comes to constant surveillance and privacy invasion, it's a good thing and they have no choice anyway. Not to mention that it's part and parcel of

          • I suspect it won't last. The devices, presumably tablets &/or laptops/Chromebooks, will get broken so often in classrooms, kids' backpacks, etc., that the cost of maintaining them will outweigh any perceived benefit of "going digital." The other thing is that education research which is ecologically valid (i.e. in real world classrooms under real world conditions) so far has consistently shown an inverse correlation between IT use in the classroom & learning outcomes/academic achievement. In other w

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by DarkOx ( 621550 )

            yes but what will you say when someone refuses to 'trust the scien*tist*' and close their business etc, the next time St. Anthony says so...

            The simple fact is public school has become to controversial to be effective in their mission to educate.

            Tax payers need to fund and ensure that everyone has access to an education but we need to do away with public schools and probably with public universities. Parents and pupils need to be able to chose an institution that aligns with their values and teaches topics t

        • well, uh, if they are school issued devices, then the school owns some level of responsibility for their security and such... Imagine, if you will, a world wherein some teen may be (heaven forbid) on a sex site having lied about his age, you the parent find out and then you realize the SCHOOL DISTRICT has beaucoup bux. One lawsuit later and viola! the school district has to defund something because their budget got a big hit from a lawsuit...

          I know, it sounds like that would never happen, anywhere, but...

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by davecb ( 6526 )

      Get advice from an interested lawyer, or a professor working on public policy problems.

      The kind of software your schools are buying, sold as allowing them to meet one law, may be prohibited by another law. Or even the first (;-)).

      This can make the school board, who are the people at risk of being sued, reconsider expensive products. Oh, and also reconsider / run away from anything suspiciously cheap, as those are the "proctoring" companies reselling your data to improve their bottom line.

  • Run for the school board (Score:4, Insightful)

    by taustin ( 171655 ) on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @07:26PM (#64094690) Homepage Journal

    With like minded people.

    If there aren't enough who agree to get you elected, you're the minority, and will have to live with it.

  • School IT guy here (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Archangel Michael ( 180766 ) on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @07:29PM (#64094706) Journal

    Gaggle (among quite a few others) is just responding to the legal requirements states and liability laws require.

    Schools have very little choice in the matter, being publicly funded with all the strings attached to that money could ever want. I have to deploy these types of tools in my day job. There are a couple options for those that don't like the situation, take your kids out of public schools, or run for School Board and/or be active locally in your kids schools.

    The surveillance is probably the least worrisome of the things I know a lot of schools are having to deal with. Money rules what schools can and have do. Follow the money.

    • Re:School IT guy here (Score:5, Interesting)

      by awwshit ( 6214476 ) on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @07:38PM (#64094718)

      Private schools also do these things, you may be able to change schools but you probably still can't influence the tech stack much.

    • Would you care to elaborate on the *more* worrisome things that you've encountered? I would truly love to learn more.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      That sounds like a really messed-up situation. Thanks for the info.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jonwil ( 467024 )

      How much of this policy stuff is decided at the school board level, how much is decoded at the state education department level and how much is set in stone by state (or even federal) laws?

      And in terms of private schools doing the same thing, how much of the policy there is decided by the school, how much is decided higher up the chain somewhere and how much is forced on them by various laws?

  • Teach your children (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Kernel Kurtz ( 182424 ) on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @07:36PM (#64094714)
    That other people's devices are not and never will be trustworthy. Encourage them to prefer devices that they (or you, depending on their age) control. They will have to learn this lesson eventually anyway.

  • Sure is funny how responding to on-demand prompts requires available attention, and attention isn't tracked when assessing the role requirements - just when we're deciding whether or not to fire someone.

    There's no point enacting legislation that nobody has the capacity to actually comply with. etc.

  • Too many parents like the idea of boot-camp/tiger-parent schools to punish riff-raff.

  • Upload some document concerning evolution.

  • THOUSANDS of them every day. Surely a simple script could achieve this without difficulty...

  • liberty, trust, and digital freedoms (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Personally I find the monthly active shooter drills more appalling than spyware. But 'MURIUCA.

  • As long as you're not breaking any rules, find out how to cause it to alert and keep making it generate nonsense alerts.

  • You shouldn't expect any aspect of privacy while using school resources, nor should you have any, otherwise you'll have school resources wasted on porn, games and personal shit with little left for actual school work. Besides, you're in school to learn, not handle your personal communications during class. That's what lunch, study hall and between classes are for using your phone and your own data plan.

  • Kreuzfeld needs an attitude adjustment. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by dfghjk ( 711126 ) on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @08:12PM (#64094769)

    First, public schools teach minors, not adults. "freedom" and "liberty" apply differently to kids at school than they do to adults in their personal time.

    Second, the kids are at school using school equipment. Surveillance is not "corrosive" to something that doesn't exist in the first place.

    Third, even if the kids were adults, this sort of thing happens all the time in the workplace and no one describes it as "corrosive" to your liberty and freedom or complains about lack of trust. Employers do what they want, as they have a right to do.

    As others have said, if you don't like it then attend school board meetings and run for the board. It's possible you might actually learn something. Sometimes kids get their "liberties" curtailed for good reasons.

    • 1) & 2) If you had read before posting, you would see that this software is monitoring what students write even when they are not at school, working on on-school projects. Obviously they shouldn't be using surveilled devices in the first place, but that doesn't justify Big Brother snooping around.

      3) I respectfully disagree, and would maintain that electronic monitoring of anyone is corrosive in exactly the manner you state it isn't. Just because this sort of monitoring and coercion may frequently occu

      • Re:Kreuzfeld needs an attitude adjustment. (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Tyr07 ( 8900565 ) on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @08:45PM (#64094837)

        It is the schools device not yours. They didn't say we only monitor the device when at school. They monitor the device, when it's used. Just because you take a school device home, it doesn't become your device to do whatever you want on it. Use it for school, use personal devices for personal activities.

        There is no justification here for 'big brother snooping around'. It's called, 'This device is monitored' and as soon as you go 'yeah but...' you're in the wrong.
        The only place where I will agree with your statements is if the device is extending it's monitoring outside the device itself, such as recording conversations when the Microphone is not in use, or the Webcam.

        • It is the schools device not yours. They didn't say we only monitor the device when at school. They monitor the device, when it's used. Just because you take a school device home, it doesn't become your device to do whatever you want on it. Use it for school, use personal devices for personal activities.

          There is no justification here for 'big brother snooping around'. It's called, 'This device is monitored' and as soon as you go 'yeah but...' you're in the wrong. The only place where I will agree with your statements is if the device is extending it's monitoring outside the device itself, such as recording conversations when the Microphone is not in use, or the Webcam.

          ^^ THIS ^^

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by gweihir ( 88907 )

            It is also called "children" as in they do not yet know how to deal with surveillance. On the plus side, they all get turned into nice, conformist and compliant worker drones this way, which is the actual purpose of the US school system according to some people.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by Tyr07 ( 8900565 )

              It is also called "children" as in they do not yet know how to deal with surveillance. On the plus side, they all get turned into nice, conformist and compliant worker drones this way, which is the actual purpose of the US school system according to some people.

              Well that, is an entirely different discussion and there are reasons that idea has merit, so I'm not arguing if it's part of that kind of system or not.
              I'm responding on the merits of a monitored school owned device is a monitored school owned device.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by MeNeXT ( 200840 )

          Yes. Don't bring it home. Don't connect it to your network if you must bring it home.

          • So don't do any homework at home. Sigh.

            • Homework is still completely school related activities. You are using school assets to do school activities.

              This is not you writing your personal diary. I wouldnâ(TM)t do that on a work laptop and wouldnâ(TM)t recommend doing it on a school one either

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by Tyr07 ( 8900565 )

              Just don't do anything not school related on the device. Lambast the school if their device monitors any external activities. Problem solved ~Fin~

          • Re: (Score:3)

            by gweihir ( 88907 )

            That applies to other things as well. In one of my jobs, I get a notebook for personal use. Used to be self-administrated, but not anymore. I now have an "untrusted" network zone for it.

    • Employers do what they want, as they have a right to do.

      Maybe in the Dystopian States of Trumpism. Over here in old Europe, they don't have that right. Depending on local rules, they may install some software to monitor policies and productivity if the workers council (roughly equivalent to a union representative, but not quite) agrees, but they are certainly not allowed to monitor all behaviour and files non-stop.

    • First, public schools teach minors, not adults. "freedom" and "liberty" apply differently to kids at school than they do to adults in their personal time.

      Do public schools need laptops to teach? The evidence is quite clear laptops are hurting rather than improving outcomes in classrooms. The only thing it appears to be doing is making the teachers lives easier while wasting billions of taxpayer dollars in the process.

      Second, the kids are at school using school equipment. Surveillance is not "corrosive" to something that doesn't exist in the first place.

      I assume all this shit is cloud based and tracked not only by the school itself but Google and a zillion other third parties. They all get kids data too because kids have no privacy rights?

      If a student takes their laptop home from school and

  • vote with your tax dollars - move also sometimes (rarely) local elections decide who runs the school.

    • This one is a reply to your sig: You can have all three. It's called IT security consulting.

      It's fun, insanely well paid and as legal as "hacking" can get. As long as you only hack the servers belonging to the one ordering the hack, of course.

      There are two reasons why something is well paid. You identified the first one, it's a job nobody wants to do so you have to shower people with money so they do them. The second one isn't legality. It's ability. The second reason something is well paid is that there ar

  • ... liberty, trust, and digital freedoms?

    There's your problem: If parents and school administrators cared about such things, the "oppressive" software would already be cancelled. Like all managers, they are controlling outcomes and demanding results that enforce and increase their power.

    Instruct the children to not use words like "fuck", "gun", "shooting", "drugs" and swear-words in every essay, questionnaire, email, DM because it fills the Spam bin on the school server.

    Children love seeing what breaks because of rules.

  • Provoke the vendor instead (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Cward ( 10374574 ) on Wednesday December 20, 2023 @08:37PM (#64094813)
    The school cannot force you as a parent to agree to the EULA or ToS for the service, but the child lacks the responsibility to agree to it entirely themselves until the later years of schooling. Therefore the easiest fix is the direct one, simply write the company who runs the monitoring to alert them to your rejection of the EULA/ToS. They will need to respond telling you that means your child cannot use the service for legal reasons. This response can then be presented to the school, effectively giving your child a legitimate excuse to use a non-school computer. If they refuse to ban your child from the service, simply obtain the unique identifier which represents your child from the school (they are obliged to give it to you) then use that to legally demand a dump of all data relating to your child once per each retention period from the vendor. If the retention period is long, you can do it less frequently, if it is shorter, the requests will need to be more frequents. It will not be long until they give in and give you what you want.

    Once one parent sees a child having a potential advantage by allowing them to use better equipment, they will all want it, and the school knows this. Therefore, they will sooner drop the monitoring system than keep it if they think not doing so will result in all students using their own equipment with absolutely anything (including legal but not safe for school content) on it.

    TL;DR: Be a real Karen about this and encourage others to do the same.

    • It is a shame I already commented. This is smart. Not likely to work, but it will show the cracks in the system when you try it. I am happy that I no longer have children in school. This shit is terrible and sets them up to be adults who will accept spying and monitoring in their daily lives as a matter of course.

  • liberty, trust, and digital freedoms?

    There's your problem: If parents and school administrators cared about such things, they would have already cancelled the "oppressive" surveillance. Like all managers they demand outcomes and results that enforce and increase their authority: For the (safety of the) children, of course. You are not going to de-prioritize that mind-set (or legal liability).

    Instruct the children to not put swear-words or "fuck", "gun", "shooting", "drugs" in every test, essay, email, and DM because it fills the SPAM fol

  • Cory Doctorow's book Little Brother describes a similar situation and offers a number of ideas. With a keyword-based monitoring system, the simplest is to overload the watchers. We used to have the X-NSA-HEADER line for email and usenet, IIRC.

    Osama, jihad, fertilizer, gasoline, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Unfortunately, one of the few actual used for the "AI" from the current hype is far better search and hence far better surveillance.

  • Tin foil. Hat.

  • The obvious play is to make encrypted documents with names like "school shooting plan" and "bomb making instructions". Then hold out for a few cool days suspension before you cough up the password and they find that it was the text of the fourth amendment repeated a million times in a row.

    This would actually work great if a lot of them did it! But a lot of them will not, and the few who actually stick their necks out for this or similar stunts will get punished immensely by an unreasonable system. So I c

  • Refer to Google/Alphabet as the 'Privacy Rapists' that they are. That'll get people realizing what's really going on.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Sebby ( 238625 )

      Well I'll be... it's Gaggle, not Google, they're talking about.

      Still, just refer to them as 'Privacy Rapists', since it's what fits best.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by gweihir ( 88907 )

        I like to call them "surveillance fascists", because one core element of fascism is abandonment of individual worth and respect for the individuum. "Privacy rapist", while accurate, sounds a bit too small-time to me.

  • In the 20+ years I have been reading /. the lefties on here went from "schools are evil conformist factories" to "you're a racist bigot flat earther if you raise your head up from picking the master's cotton."

    I am cry now.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      I get the impression that "left" and "right" are so close together in the US these days that attributions have stopped making sense entirely. You people are just looking to blame somebody from the "other" camp, no matter whether it makes any sense or not. Obviously, this mindset is slowly destroying society, because all societies need some base-consent about what they want to be.

      • Left and Right in the US mean the same thing. Both "sides" want to silence you if you say the wrong thing or offend the wrong entity, they only disagree on what you can't say and who you would offend.

  • As long as too many people do not get that totalitarianism is a bad idea, things will deteriorate and the surveillance-fascists will slowly get their poison in.

  • What are some examples of false alerts? - I would just try and overload the system out of malice, because I was once an awful kid. - play Call of Duty with all the guns sounds turned up, watch die hard full volume, play Eminem's Rap God at double the speed on repeat and see if it struggles to interpret what it's saying, create noise in the system that they have to deal with. You could become a Linux System Administrator, there sometimes a lot of processes to ‘kill’. You can become a writer for

    • The software we use at our school logs a screenshot every time someone right clicks in a spreadsheet: "Format C", which is actually "Format Cell", but it doesn't care about the rest of the word.
      It also takes screen shots of the most insane things that are counted as terrorism or bullying. Having it installed seems to be just so the school can tick a box.

  • Those on the left who have some continuing commitment to human rights have no problem with criticising the actions of the police, whom they have limited sympathy for. Restraining their behaviour is thus something which such people will support.

    When however it comes to schools, which employ union members who are part of their political coalition, the Left becomes far less willing to challenge their own. This, of course, at a time when the resistance of the profession of teachers to following the science and

  • There would be two solutions to countering this excessive surveillance.

    A student could use outside of school computers, mobiles, for email, IM, etc. that's not directly for school..

    Another would be to saturate the surveillance system with false alarms.

    See also Jam Echelon Day.
    https://www.thing.net/~rdom/ec... [thing.net]
  • It's the school's device, not yours. There are also many legal requirements (state and federal) that they have to be in compliance with, or face crippling penalties/fines.

    Don't like it? Too bad. Use it as a teaching moment instead, as others have mentioned. "This isn't your device, so it's not to be trusted. You don't know what's being monitored/tracked. Use it for only the explicit purpose(s) that you were given it for and nothing else."

    Try this. Go to your boss and demand that the work computer they

    • I am.

      But then again, I'm in the EU and I showed them that their system is flawed to the core and it doesn't even take a trained security person to thwart it, so they should can the rubbish and demand their money back...

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • There is no technical solution to a social problem. And yes, gaggle is a social problem you have to solve, not a technical one. Of course you could "break" it, hell, kids have way more time at their hands to thwart a system that adults with way less time design, plus the clout and kudos they could get from their peers as the one who broke the chain is a very powerful motivator, but in this case you'd be fighting windmills.

    The weak link in this particular case is the parents. Parents that very likely don't e

  • Make those school officials subject to the same rules. They're working on equipment paid for with public funds, are they not?

  • What are they looking for? Porn? Sexting? And then someone is falsely accused because of a false positive?

    Or are they looking for pirated stuff that someone put on a school system?

    Or are the looking for naughty words like "retard"?

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