Ask Slashdot: Is Professional Engineering Certification Necessary? 109
resilient asks: "I have one year before I graduate with a degree in Electrical Engineering. I have the opportunity to take a preperation class for the first test in order to get my Professional Engineering Certificate (P.E.). My question is to all the experienced Electrical Engineers or Computer Engineers: Do I need a P.E. to succeed in today's industry? Will it be a limiting factor? In what situations would you reccomend taking it? I am open for any advice you may have." Another certification issue, but when it comes to engineering, I think the certifications become VERY important. What do you all say?
The *REAL* worth of certification in some places (Score:1)
In some countries, the real worth of certification is an "assurance" to the clients of the certified engineer, that the engineer who has been certified by the board is capable of finishing the task they hire him (or her) for.
However, in other places, the real worth of certification is a right to exert massive amount of payments from the clients.
You see, in the country that I was from, the "Professional Bodies" which has the exclusive right in giving out the "certificates" has the right to bar anyone who aren't certified by them to work in their chosen fields.
Which means, the "Professional Body" in question is using their monopolistic power to form a cartel of "Certified" people in exerting exhobitant fees from clients who need their services.
Their clients have no choice but to pay whatever price the "Certified" people ask for, because without the John Hancocks of those "Certified" people, you can't get your house or factory built, and you also need those "Certified" people to represent you in courts, to treat you, and so on
But, **IF** the "Certified" people are worth the money they ask for, then everything should have been okay. It's just that, in the country that I was from, many of those "Certified" people are nothing but rubberstamps.
As long as you pay them money, those "Certified" people will stamp (or sign) everything you give them, no matter if the construction plan is okay or not.
In other words, the certification process has been turned into a legal highway robbery, _and_ a way for the unscrupulous to erect structures that are unsafe, making products that are unhealthy, and so on.
The name of the country I was from?
It starts with "M" and it has "Asia" in it.
not needed... (Score:1)
Probably Don't Need It... (Score:4)
1) experience (that includes what you did for projects in school)
2) knowledge (most interviews will have one interviewer ask you technical questions, at least that's been my experience)
3) and the final (and sometimes most important issue) is how well everyone on the team thinks you will fit in with the group. If your personality doesn't fit with everyone else's it may lead to clashes. Now, that isn't the overriding factor but I've seen it taken with a fair amount of weight when all of the interviewers talk after the interview process.
In the end, if you want to get the certification then take the test. It can't hurt but I don't know if right now in this economy it will matter all that much.
Just my $0.02.
Engineering Certification in California (Score:3)
He spent a year cramming for the test and got his certification, but he said it would have been a lot easier just after he graduated (15 years earlier.) So if you have any thought of being in business for yourself, I'd have to recommend taking the test now.
It depends (Score:1)
Most people from here at Georgia Tech who graduate with an EE or CmpE degree don't take the PE test.
Not really important, though it wouldn't hurt. (Score:2)
For example, a PE usually signs off the design of an aircraft in order to show that in his best judgement it will hold up and not fall apart after a few flights. If the PE doesn't sign it or there are no PE's to check the design, then it will be hard to market the plane. Even though a PE certification doesn't mean that they are smarter, it does provide some assurance that the PE would not have signed off if he believed that the design was unsafe.
In a computer related field, this does not really matter since you can obvisouly tell for the most part if a design works by building prototypes. A computer company will not care if the design is singed off, as long as the product works. Before the product is sold, the company will test it and work all the bugs are out. With civil engineering, you usually only get one shot. For example, you want the designs for a bridge done right the first time, because it would cost big $$$ to rebuild it because an engineer didn't do the calculations correctly.
That's my
Peter Gogas
As the first woman chair of any engineering board (Score:2)
1) It lets you approve the construction designs of buildings over 50,000 square feet.
2) It lets you testify in a court of law as an expert.
Given that you have to get your ET before your PE, and you have to have 4 years of RL experience before your PE becomes active, the payoff is not right away.
If you get certified, and never use it...where is the harm in that?
You went to college, so little scraps of paper saying you know something matters. So, go for this scrap also.
Just a Silly attempt at Unionization (Score:1)
Sean
MCSE != PE (Score:1)
Where are you going? (Score:1)
I have personally never seen a EE job that had PE as a requirement. I have never seen a resume that had a PE on it (and thus have never hired such an engineer). I believe that PE's are pretty rare for EE's and very few outfits look for them. Just for reference: I've looked at many hundreds of EE resumes over the years and hired people for dozens of jobs.
In any case, the only place that it might be useful would be coming out of college into your first job. After that prospective employers will judge you primarily on the skills and experience aquired in your previous positions. Hell, I don't even have a degree, but I worked at startup companies for the first 5 years I was out of school and got a lot of really good experience. Consequently I have never failed to get an offer for any job that I applied for. Frankly, the market for EE's is so hot right now that most places will give you the benefit of the doubt if you can just get to the interview.
One thing that is very useful to keep in mind is that if you apply for a job by sending a resume to the HR department you should know that the people who vet the resumes don't know much about the jobs, they just check a resume for keywords like BS degree, VHDL, and Unix. The specific list of keywords you will be compared to will come from a brief description of the job requirements supplied by the requesting manager - the guy who you would end up working for. Believe it or not this is usually the biggest hurdle - 90% of resumes for a job usually get cut at this stage. If you have all the keywords he asked for you'll usually get a call.
The bottom line is this: if you get to the interview and you come across as smart, hard working, easygoing, and with the right basic skills and some relevant experience you're golden. It also helps to be a handicapped minority woman, but what can you do?
Re: Is P.E. Certification Necessary? (Score:2)
I have one year before I graduate with a degree in Electrical Engineering. I have the opportunity to take a preperation class for the first test in order to get my Professional Engineering Certificate (P.E.).
From my understanding of the certificate system (at least as it relates to other types of engineering, i.e. Civil, Mechanical, Industrial), you are required to receive the E.I.T. (Engineer In Training) test prior to the P.E., however I'm not too sure what's involved on the Electrical Engineering side.
Do I need a P.E. to succeed in today's industry?
That depends almost completely on what kind of job you are looking to get into. For instance, if you were looking to design an underground fiber optical system in which government permits (either local or state) are going to be a factor, then you would definitely need the certificate--as most state and local agencies that require any project, in which liability could be claimed, require the signature/endorsement of a certified engineer. This has become so common place that a person who has a P.E. can make a good living just approving and endorsing projects that other uncertified engineers actually designed(I actually know someone that does this exclusively, and makes quite a good living at this).
On the other hand, if you aren't designing things that could cause liability, the requirement of a certificate may not be part of the job description. It might just be something that is listed as "preferred."
A good idea might be to call some H.R. representatives at a couple companies, that are in the line of that you wish to go into, and ask them what their requirements and preferrances are about certifications. This will give you a better idea of whether it is "worth while" for you to get it.
Will it be a limiting factor?
In the field of engineering, or any field for that matter, certificates are a good thing when it comes to getting a job (keeping that job is a different story).
In what situations would you reccomend taking it?
If you have the means and the opportunity to take the exam, do it. It will afford you a wider range of jobs to choose from.
Depends on industry... (Score:1)
and a total waste for others.
If you are a computer engineer planning a career designing ASIC's you generally won't need a PE.
You won't be asked about certification and you
will be unusual if you even work with someone who
has one.
If you are an electrical engineer planning on
designing electrical power systems the PE degree
is vital.
My father-in-law had to be certified in several states as part of his building power engineering
business. In order to obtain permits for
construction a PE stamped design document (ie blueprints and/or schematics) are required.
Many people misunderstand what a PE is. (Score:5)
Many of the comments I have read indicate that some people are confusing a Professional Engineering license with some other sort of "professional" certification like a MSCE or CNE. The two are very different sorts of animal. Once you fulfill the requirements to become a professional engineer and actually get the license, your state (assuming you're in the USA) recognizes that you are an engineer and you are allowed to do a number of things that non-engineers aren't allowed to do. The PE exam is for engineers very much like the bar exam is for lawyers
So, should you become a professional engineer? Maybe. You should take the EIT (engineer in training) exam while you can still remember all your courses---especially the ones in the fields that aren't your speciality. It doesn't really cost you anything and can make your life easier down the road.
Once you get the practical experience (you need to have worked under for a PE for a while in order to be eligible to take the PE exam) then you can consider whether or not it would be worthwhile for you to take the PE exam. It might be worthwhile for an electrical engineer to become a PE if he wanted to become a consulting engineer and especially if he wanted to design equipment that was to be itself certified by some agency like UL.
Go for it... (Score:1)
In my Intro to Profession class (just a class that informs people of the areas out there, work, etc), the last lecturer who came in had a lot of experience under his belt. The one thing I that caught my attention was this:
In 5 years, 50% of what we teach you will be irrelevent. If we knew this 50%, we'd skip it, but we don't. Instead we try to prepare you and make sure you know how to work in teams, where you can't check the other guys work (as they're in a new filed) and to learn how to learn. Of course, we also break your back teaching you that 110% out there.
I don't know if this is relevent or not, but it was a lecture to many engineers in various fields (This is the engineering campus, main). So, going for something higher up probably wont disappear as rapidly, PE covers various areas, and since your learning new material, that can help later to learn when what you know gets outdated...
One other point, though not relevent but good to take note, is the team idea. When do you call yourself a comuter engineer? How about when you can single handedly create a palm pilot. Well, you need to know design and ergonomics, marketting, economy, electrical engineering, computer engineering, etc. So if you know how to work in a team where you have to trust everyone to pull their weight because you can't check them, is vital.
The short answer is "NO". The long one is "Maybe". (Score:1)
The short answer: No! You can design everything just as well without a P.Eng as you can with one. I have been "in the industry" for nine years now, designing everything from computers to modulators to gigahertz receivers to pure software...and have never had or needed a P.Eng.
The long answer is "Maybe - it depends" ... if you are in an industry where people can get injured because of your designs, the person/company buying your services will require (and possibly the law may require it)that a P.Eng is in charge of the project. This could be anything from bridge construction to medical software. Some companies require their engineering staff to all be P.Eng's (or at least E.I.T.s). (An example of this is Manitoba Hydro) So, the long answer is "depending on what you want to do, you might find yourself in a position where you will have to have a P.Eng in order to get the job".
Also, if you want to actually call yourself an engineer (in Canada, at least), you must be a P.Eng.
Don't forget that all the money you pay to the professional engineering organization goes to support people that are somewhat out of touch with reality, and to prosecute you if you ever make a mistake. I have *never* seen the P.Eng organization even make token efforts to support their members, only to prosecute them.
In closing, if you get your P.Eng, don't forget the part of your oath where you will accept your fair wages for work. Make sure you don't drive down prices - keep our work valuable!!!
*REAL* worth of certification in all places (Score:1)
Whenever something crooked needs a rubber stamp, you can always find someone who will give it, even though it might mean giving them a big enough bribe for them to skip country and live comfortably when their role becomes evident. In some countries this is not as obvious, because the general population they would screw is rich enough to hire independent auditors and powerful enough to bite back, making it relatively dangerous and unprofitable to cheat.
Incompetents always manage to slip through, too. Certification procedures generally involve more time than anything else. Any of the tests involved can be passed by practically anyone with enough cramming. I remember in Engineering school the way my classmates used to look through old exams until they could be certain that they had already found questions that were nearly identical to the ones on the exam. Being patient, punctual, orderly, and studious can substitute for competence when it comes to meeting requirements for certification.
Never mind that any certification is essentially meaningless once a few years have passed since the subject was evaluated.
I once knew an electrical engineer (yes, certified and employed, and with an engineering degree from a respectable university) who couldn't figure out how to wire up two lights to a switch so they would both go on at the proper brightness when the switch was flipped. Incidentally, she was only a few years out of university, so it's not like this was some 80-year-old who decided he didn't want to be an engineer after all and hadn't looked at a wire in 50 years.
I have heard countless other similar stories. Practically every office has its certified incompetents, and people just route work around them.
(BTW, I'm from Canada)
No, You don't need one. (Score:2)
Re:MCSE != PE (ehh... kinda) (Score:1)
In some areas, will be important - not always (Score:1)
If you're self-employed or a consultant, or work in a somewhat different field than what your degree is in - working for certification may be a waste of time.
My own experience is not typical, I suppose... I have a B.SC. in Electrical Engineering, but already started working with computers in the first year at the same university. I got my degree only because this implied a raise - but actually didn't bother to register my B.Sc. diploma for many years - and neither the M.Sc. (in Comp.Sci) which I took a few years later.
Meanwhile, 25 years after the B.Sc., I've never had to show any diploma and registration, showing my previous work is always sufficient - even back I when wasn't a consultant. I finally got my papers this year just to enable my company to do business with the federal government.
Granted, if you work in a crowded professional niche, this sort of thing will be very hard to pull off.
Milton Friedman, in his book "Free to Choose" [amazon.com] arguments against any sort of professional certification, except perhaps for MDs - and his arguments are quite cogent. Unfortunately, many employers value certifications and there's little we can do about it...
It's a License, not a certificate. (Score:1)
My Dad is a PE... (Score:1)
Granted, that's mechanical engineering work he is doing. However, the state of Arizona requires that construction projects be approved by a P.E. With the difficulty in getting the license, weighed against the pay increase you can expect, I would say its worth it.
It does matter though, which state you are in. Some states, like Arizona, give one test covering all engineering fields, whereas others give several P.E. tests for several different fields. Something to consider, especially if you aren't as good as you need to be in a particular subject, like statics or dynamics.
To Engineer Is Human (Score:2)
Read anything by Henry Petroski.
Definitely Not (Score:2)
The only certification I needed was my degree. (It IS important that you go to an accredited university.) But, the more experience I get, the less important that becomes.
When I interview for a job, I am not asked to produce documentation for some test I took. No, I am asked "What have you designed that went into production? Tell me about it." Any EE who keeps his (her) head where the sun shines will quickly find out how much you know. In this buisiness, if someone is depending on a certification, it is because they don't know anything (and probably have pointy hair).
B.T.W, When you are interviewing and discussing any experience you may have, be prepared to answer not just what engineering decisions you made, but why.
Matt
Re:Go for it... (Score:1)
Designation (Score:1)
A B.Sc. in Comp. Sci, or chemistry, or engineering, or nursing, or whatever... is just training. Yeah.. it looks great on an exam. yeah it was hard maybe! It's certainly worth a lot....
but, can one all oneself legally a 'Nurse' if one has a B.Sc. In Nursing, but isn't an RN? No.. not really, not as far as government goes (ie: hospitals).
Just because you have a Ph.D., doesnt' make you a professor.
Just because you have a Ph.D. In medicine, doesn't make you an MD.
Just because you have a B.Sc. in EE, doesn't make you an engineer.
Absolutely (Score:1)
I also agree about the HR cuts on resumes. I was looking for a job about 10 months ago. I had one year of experience at a no name startup and a bachelors degree. I had to solve a lot of problems on my own in that year and I grew as an engineer. But, when I mailed my resume to HR departments I did not get a single call back. Once I was able to get my hands on a real human being, the interview was great and I was getting offers on jobs that had stated requirements of a masters degree and four years experience. The interview, if you can get it, is what makes the difference.
Matt
fff (Score:1)
The license *is* important (Score:2)
As an electrical/electronic or computer engineer, having or lacking a license will probably not affect your career very greatly.
However, I'd still recommend for you to get your license. I'm a computer engineering graduate (working for three years so far, currently in embedded software) studying for my M.Sc. in EE but don't have my license yet (mostly because I am away from my home country and therefore can't fulfill the residency requirement). My dad is a P.Eng. as are many of the people I know (mostly hardware guys with some software thrown in). My wife is a geotechnical engineer and she most definitely will require one in the near future. The consensus seems to be:
Having a license does not get you promoted any faster or help you to find work in high tech.
A license does not mean that you have any particular expertise (contrast with CNE etc) other than a good engineering education from an accredited school and a history of good practice.
A license probably won't mean that you get paid more for a job (unless you are a civil or mechanical engineer in which case you can get paid LOTS more if you have a license in some cases).
It does mean that you are allowed to call yourself an engineer (don't tell me you worked so hard at school only to be prevented from printing the word 'engineer' on your business cards ). In some countries, "Engineer" is a title like Doctor (esp. in Spanish speaking ones I think).
If you are working for a small firm or consulting, this can be very important and in many jurisdictions, there is work that can only be performed by or signed off by engineers. For large corporations, there is sort of a blanket license they can use but this requires them to have a certain ratio of engineers to other staff.
Most P.Eng.s that I know also carry liability insurance (often as a package with their membership in professional associations). This is to cover your liability for designs you sign off on. Again, this applies more to Mechs and Civils. Remember that you are a member of a profession...
Very often, the professional associations will advertise conferences and so on. It is definitely worthwhile to attend these if possible (heck, they're probably subsidised with your membership dues).
A large part of joining a profession is agreeing to follow a code of ethical practice and responsibility (similar to law or medicine). In some places you take an oath swearing this.
Like law and medicine (and accounting I think), engineering is a self-regulating profession. Because of the effect that engineers can have on public safety, they traded some freedom in return for less regulation from the government. Whether this was a good bargain or not remains debatable (but was the right thing to do at the time IMO).
I'm rather surprised that so many Slashdotters don't know more about the profession. When I was an undergrad we were required to take courses about the history and practice of engineering. Does this mean that SDers are mostly computer science weenies?
Certification for Programmers (Score:1)
So why do I think there is a necessity for certification? Simple: liability. However Y2K pans out, so much money has been spent "fixing" problems and evaluating software that liability for programmers has become an issue. I don't think that any Y2K issues are programmers fault - a question of being too clever and *assuming* that software would be rewritten before it becomes a problem... The rest is history.
No. The important thing is for programmers to be listened to, carrying the weight of professional responsibility. When a programmer says "This code works to the best of my ability but there may be issues with (database indexes|date fields in the year 10k|memory usage when the number of users exceeds X|backdoors in our web based email) this should be noted, evaluated and then acted upon in the right time.
Certification is a question of trust and responsibility (not just a piece of paper), so that employers that *can't* go over source code can feel at ease. You know it makes sense.
Oh. And don't get an MCSE - from my experience that only teaches you to reboot/re-write/re-format...
Re:Many people misunderstand what a PE is. (Score:3)
people are confusing a Professional Engineering license with some other sort of "professional" certification
Ignore all the comments in this thread concerning MCSE or CNE. The E in all those professional certifications stands for EXPERT, not ENGINEER. It is illegal in most places (the U.S., England, Ireland, France, Belgium) to use the term engineer if you do not have a license from the state run board controlling the term.
When Novell started their CNE program back in 1984, they used the term Certified Novell Engineer. Some idiots managed to pass the Novell exam with no knowledge of computers or engineering, and got themselves sued in a California court. They tried to use their CNE pieces of paper to get them out of it, and ended up getting slapped with a US$10K fine by the court. Right after that, Novell changed the wording to Expert, and any CNI who teaches a CNE course is supposed to say repeatedly that the CNE is not an engineering certificate, and is never to be represented as one. The same goes for Cisco and their CCIE (which I consider to be the best).
I'm a Chartered Engineer (UK and Ireland equivalent of a PE), and occasionally I have to sign off the electrical parts of a communications project. As the only EE with a radio comms and networking background on many projects, I get to charge whatever I want for my review and signature.
Since the CE license requires me to act responsibly, I actually do review the engineering aspects of a project before I sign, since its my ass on the line if anything goes wrong. I charge GBP15,000 for a review, and have only done 6 since I got my C.E. 10 years ago. They were all public communication projects for either voice or data comms.
So take your EIT test, and if your career takes you in that direction, you are covered. If you end up as a code jockey, then you will be making as much as a PE and that scrap of paper is just a nice feeling that you accomplished something. Its good to have insurance now, than tear your hair out years down the road.
the AC
Needing Engineer Certification.. it depends... (Score:1)
The more people give any credit to those idiosincratic certifications, the more employers will be willing to give it more credit. Just look at MS Certification...
Depends on the environment (Score:1)
RE: Is engineer cert. Necessary? (Score:1)
Once you've been around enough degreed engineers you see that what I'm about to say is as true for engineers as it is for any other profession. Any engineer (let's call him/her Carroll because I know both male and female "Carroll's" with that spelling) who has been comfortable with the same company for 10 years and had not a lot of reason to explore outside their own little world is probably a little rusty in some areas, even in their own area of expertise. For the most part, the "certified" engineers tend to be the sort of person to whom that does not happen. These are folks who get a woody just thinking about heat transfer coefficients and standards of deviation. There's a tendency toward a higher grade of engineer. There's also a tendency toward a higher pay for these geeks.
For your normal engineer jobs there's no need for this level of specialization or money to pay for it. However, some positions (frequently municipal or other governmental) require it because there's an interest in the public well being. By requiring certification the county (or whomever) has the ability to say they had a specifically qualified person in the position in the rare event when something remarkably bad happens.
The short of it is this, if you're not looking to be the county engineer or some such thing you'll be just fine without it.
D. Keith Higgs
CWRU. Kelvin Smith Library
Good points all around... (Score:1)
Certification (Score:1)
What does all this mean? You are legally responsible for your own actions, much more so than the general public is (to the governing body the general public is synonymous with the unwashed masses). Any advice you give, even for free, at a bar, on a cocktail napkin must be technically sound or you can be sued. The certification body will operate against you in order to protect the profession. Even if the advice was technically sound but the person receiving the advice wasn't technically proficient to make use of it and as a result suffered financial or physical injury you may be in trouble.
If you've ever wondered why those prickish lawyers and doctors refuse to give free advice even to close personal friends then this is why. The cards are very much stacked against the licensed practicioner, to operate requires very expensive insurance policies. If you're a consultant within a consulting agency the company should provide insurance for you. Make sure to check that you're still protected after you've left the company for past work.
Certification -- If You Want To Spend The Time (Score:1)
Is certification required for my job? No.
Do I have to be able to "talk the talk, and walk the walk" in my job? Yes.
If you know how to do most tasks in the industry you're going to specialize in, that should be enough for most situations.
Certification in South Africa (Score:1)
Disclaimer ;-) - most of this is from personal experience as well as from some of my friends. If things have changed in the last couple of years please feel free to correct me. I've been working in the UK for a few years now and I may be a bit out of touch!
In SA the term used is Professional Engineer. You register as a Engineer in Training after you graduate. No need to take an additional exam. I guess they assume that if you have graduated you can at least register ;-p
The step from EIT to fully certified Professional Engineer is where the problems start. You have to pay a yearly subscription fee (and you receive some newsletters and documentation - if you're lucky). To be considered for certification you need at least three years professional experience. After three years you have to submit a written report detailing your experience. Having a sort of mentor (who is a Professional Engineer himself) is preferred but not required.
Most of my EE colleagues never bother to go through this. Apart from a few large corporations it has no influence on your compensation package. If you want to go private/consulting you need to be certified though - I think this is required by law.
PS. Just curious: from reading the posts I assume that you have to take an EIT exam (in the USA) to register. But how does it work after that? What do you have to do to become a certified engineer?
well.. (Score:1)
Doesn't matter for most purposes (Score:1)
My father was only licensed to practice in two states. As it happens, there are only a few states that matter from the standpoint of the particular subspecialty of chemical engineering that he practiced.
Chemical engineering is a very traditional field where pieces of paper mean a lot and (at least 15 years ago) everyone wore suits to work every day. Even so, it sounded like his PE really only mattered very much when he was consulting.
The PE examination requires substantial knowledge in many areas -- electrical, chemical, civil, and such. For the vast majority of people in the software (and even hardware) field who style themselves (or are styled by their companies) "engineer", this has no relevance whatsoever. I, for example, mostly do OS and other low level work. I'd be surprised if there are more than a handful of people in the building who even know what a PE is, much less what one does.
Most software vendors seem to subscribe to the "we don't accept liability" school of thought. NT's EULA, which apparently states that NT is not certified for use in safety-critical situations, is a case in point. If they get sued over somebody's death because of an OS failure, they're simply going to point to the EULA and state that they made it quite clear that this is not qualified for the purpose. Of course, any PE at the nuclear power plant who signed off on using such a product would probably be in trouble, but any software vendor that takes that kind of approach probably doesn't need a PE on staff.
EE's who design consumer electronics probably don't need a PE at all. Most contractors probably don't, either. However, if you want contract jobs in situations where you might be called to testify in court (such as investigations of problems after the fact), or where you have to certify that something was done according to best accepted practice, it's probably essential. So companies that write custom software to run nuclear power plants probably do need some people with PE certification.
Re:Designation (Score:1)
The government?
Practice in the field?
Competence?
Just because the government, or someone else, sets a "standard", it doesn't mean the standard is relevant to anyone, or anything, at all. Requiring an EE to worry about stresses and strains is rather silly, I feel. Likewise, a CE has no need to worry about op amps.
After all, it's not the licensing exam that trains someone... it shouldn't be the licensing exam that decides when someone's finished. Let the university designations stand, and let the potential employers/contractors take responsibility for hiring competent people.
An EE Speaks... (Score:1)
Having established my credentials, here's my $2.00 worth (because I think my opinion is worth more than $0.02):
1) If you are going to be a bit banger or electron pusher (for anything other than life support or power distribution), a PE is a luxury, not a necessity. This is not to say luxuries are bad, but:
2) Of more importance (and quicker payoff) are the other certifications you can get in other areas. Get certified on Real time OS's, CAD packages, VHDL, SDL, etc. (things a potential employer would otherwise have to train you in) Things like CNE, MSCE, etc. are useful only if you want to go into Information Services (i.e. be a network admin.)
3) Consider getting an amatuer radio license. Especially if you plan on going into any company that does anything remotely pertaining to radio, this is a very good (and cheap) way to break the ice. Plus, you will get hands on experience in making electronic things.
4) Whatever certs you get, whatever you put on your resumee, be damn sure you can actually "walk the walk." Yes, you have to make yourself look good in the resumee, but I cannot count the number of times I've seen "Experience in C++" on a resumee and the person couldn't even tell me what a virtual function was! "Bzzzt! Thank you for playing"
5) If you want to make the most money, get a lobotomy, errr, MBA (Masters of Business Administration). Sad to say, but being a creator doesn't pay as well in the long run as being a Pointy Haired Boss.
6) Learn your people skills. Learn to speak clearly in presentations, learn to manage people well, learn to write clearly. Even if you stay in a technical track, you WILL eventually be a project lead. Learn to take criticism well, learn to critisize well. Learn the "leading question": instead of saying "Your design is crap because if Vcc drops
7) Learn personal integrity (this is part of what the PE covers): You boss pays you for your opinion: if he cannot trust you, why is he paying you. Never lie when giving your professional opionon. If you don't know, say so (the three wisest words in English are "I don't know"). Take responsiblity for your actions: If you screwed up, say "I screwed up, and this is how I plan on fixing the problem."
8) If you do get a PE, you had better carry malpractice insurance. Just like a doctor.
The last piece of advise I can give any graduating EE: You may thing you are Gods give to engineering, but remember this: That technician, the guy who has a six-week certificate from DeVry, has been doing this for years longer than you. He remembers more about the mechanics of electrical design after his first cup of coffee in the morning than you know. You are a first leutenant, he is a seargent with hash marks down his sleeve. Respect him, listen to him, and learn!
Nice but not necessary (Score:1)
I graduated in EE and have worked as a software/systems engineer for ten years.
Almost all of my friends are engineers. Some teach engineering classes. None is a PE.
I have never asked anyone if they are a PE when interviewing applicants and I have never been asked. I have never received an application from someone who is a PE and I have never had an interview with a PE when I was the applicant.
I wouldn't mind being a PE but I have never worked for a PE so I haven't even gotten started on the experience requirement after ten years of work (which has to be gained while working directly under a PE).
Personally, with the plethora of 90 day wonder "certified engineers" running around, combined with the unreasonable difficulty (in my experience anyway) of even meeting the experience requirement, I don't see any point in worrying about being a PE. Sure, if the opportunity comes up, don't waste it but don't worry about it either.
BTW: Microsoft still explicitly says the E is for engineer and so does Novell. Neither says that the E is for expert.
You won't work in TODAY's industry (Score:1)
1: PE is something like being a CPA or a Bar member, not some nandy-pandy CNE or MSNE
2: PE's are mostly for Civil or Mechanical engineer's to cover regulations regarding professional responsibility.
There is a belief (much disputed) that professional certification of programmers is coming. Things like the legendary Dever Airport debacle (never mind the runways settling) and y2k problems create a perception in some people's mind that big software and electronics projects are IMPORTANT and MISSION CRITICAL and failure can cost lives or big bucks. So maybe we need some electronics and software PE's for the big projects?
It is entirely possible that, while a PE would do you no good NOW, in five or ten years there may well be a demand for PE certified EE's, and having it will be to your professional advantage.
Besides a reasonably tough test reviewing general engineering never hurt any smart ass senior. (GRIN)
Practical standpoint (Score:2)
sPh
Certifications are worthless. (Score:1)
Hell No! (Score:1)
When I graduated from the University of Iowa in 1994, there were no computer science questions on the EIT. It was all basic engineering (thermodynamics, statics, basic circuit analysis, etc.).
I was weak in the cross-discipline engineering stuff anyway (because I knew that I would never use it). The test had absolutely no relevance for my career, so I didn't waste the money.
The EIT and professional engineering certification seem more geared to mechanical engineering. The only reason an electrical would want it is if they planned to be wiring buildings for a living.
Also, someone who has passed the EIT needs to work with a licensed engineer for several years before they are allowed to take the state-specific PE exam. You're not going to find such a licensed engineer in the computer science field.
For engineers going into computer science, it is a complete waste of money.
IEEE (Score:1)
~Chris
Probably a good idea. (Score:1)
Take a look at that. Maybe even e-mail some people there and get more information. If you're NOT in IEEE, I'd strongly recommend you join. GOOD networking available that way for career advancement. (not to mention, auto insurance companies give major discounts to members of Professional Societies.
Good luck out there!
-Ken
CS equivalent of PE ... (Score:1)
Forget the MCSE/CNE/A+ stuff. The closest thing programmers have to a PE is a Certified Computing Professional designation from the Institute for Certification of Computing Professionals [iccp.org].
Having said that, let me emphasize the "closest thing" isn't very close! In many engineering disciplines, there is a well-understood, well agreed-to body of practices that no competent professional would violate. In software "engineering," there's almost concensus that goto statements should be avoided most of the time, and that's about it.
As a result, darned near no one has a CCP, and most employers don't know what it means, let along care whether or not you have one.
Not needed for Computer/Software Engineering (Score:1)
If there was some sort of license specific to software engineering then that is a different story.
2 cents worth.
For Civil Engineers = manditory (Score:1)
I think for Electrical engineers It is important for wiring power drawings.
For computer engineers I think its next to useless.
I think part of the requirement for maintaining your PE is "Proffessional development" , which means learning and keeping up to date.
the steps in obtaining a PE are
1. Pass Engineer in Training(EIT) exam
2. work for 4 years in design
3. Take PE exam in your engineering discipline.
4. Get cool stamp for drawings.
PEs are only good in the state there issued in. Although most states will "Cross license you"
/Aram
Re:more certifications = more $$$ (Score:1)
OTOH, equating a professional license with some bullshit "certification" is an insult....
Certification is worth doing (Score:1)
to do for a BSE in training who wants a career
in engineering.
Advanced degrees would supercede it in a job
search though - and anyone hiring an engineer would be more interested in successful projects
than a PE. It is NOT equivalent to passing the
bar for a lawyer or being medically certified for
a doctor. It at most conveys a little confidence to your employer.
Take the exam! (Score:1)
I took the (EIT) exam and passed. I don't remeber half the stuff on it and its only been 4 years. I wouldn't want to take it now and have to refresh all that knowledge.
Bear in mind the test covers all disciplines in engineering, not just EE.
The PE exam will cover just material similar to the field you've been working in.
Take the EIT exam now, even if you won't need it. (Score:1)
Will you need that PE certificate down the line? For a EE, probably not. But take the EIT now anyway. It's a nice thing to have on your resume. And it'll be easier to pass the EIT now than five years down the road, when you've forgotten a lot of the things you haven't needed to use in the real world.
Re:Designation (Score:1)
Again, Who is it that should determine who is qualified?
It has been pointed out elsewhere in this discussion that California, for example, limits the number of Structural Engineers admitted at any one time, regardless of qualifications... It is this kind of problem that is almost inevitable when monopoly power is granted, whether to a government agency directly, or to a "self-regulating" body with the government stick guiding the show.
Electrical and software engineering are important to many critical systems these days; I don't see planes crashing, hospital systems BSODing, and stock exchanges collapsing on a daily basis... so clearly people, when required to, are capable of finding competent software engineers. Why then, can people not be expected to find their own competent Civil Engineers, lawyers, and nurses?
My point is that this is an area where government doesn't have to be involved.
EE: probably not (Score:1)
1) PE certification has a large bearing if you are in an industry that directly supports the public at large. I.E., people drive across the bridge you designed every day, or walk by the nuclear waste dump that you designed. If all this sounds a lot like mechanical and civil engineering, you're right- they are the ones that need it the most. Certification is very important here because the government regulations say you have to have it. Electical engineer's don't do that sort of thing in general unless you are working in power, and then it does come to be importatnt.
2) Technically, you can't state that you are an engineer on your business card if you do not have PE certification. Everyone does anyway, though.
3) For me, I'm doing it for two reasons:
a) I don't want to limit myself. If I want to go out and contract myself out to design a power distribution system for the pentagon, I'd like to be able to produce my creditials.
b) I'm proud to be in engineering. If there is anything out there that says "You are an official engineer because we say so" accreditation, then I'm going to go get it.
Here's added incentive:
c) It's easy to pass. Myself, and I know several others who never picked up a book and passed the FE with flying colors.
So do it!
Chris Ruffin
Re:CS equivalent of PE ... (Score:1)
This is because engineering is based on physics, which has a strong basis in mathematics. There is no "physics of software" on which to base standard practices. Engineering would be a far different practice if the force of gravity, the rules of calculus, or the tensile strength of steel were dictated by "user requirements"...
Defense against pointy-hair boss (Score:1)
On another note, don't view the PE like passing the bar. Engineers don't have similar educational requirements as lawyers or doctors. View the PE like the CPA license. Both engineers and accountants only need a BS/BA degree and both have exemptions for practicing without a license if working for a company. And both can have, long, productive careers either with or without a license, although I believe that you are more valuable in the market place with one.
Brian L. Bishop, PE
History of PE vs. Vendor Certifications ... (Score:1)
IMHO, both the NSPE (National Society of Professional Engineers)/State BoPE (Board of Professional Engineers) *AND* the "engineering" Vendors (e.g. Microsoft, Novell, etc...).*SUCK* BIG-TIME! I explain why below ...
So you see, we have a catch-22. First is the fact that the NSPE and all state BoPEs (except Texas) are filled with narrow-minded "bridge builders" and that the vendor certification route is a major MONEY MAKER and serves no real engineering purpose.
I have personally had run ins with IGNORANT CNEs and MCSEs all throughout my career. And eventually companies do wake up to the fact that 50-75% of the people who carry these certifications don't know crap, just like 50-75% of the PEs should not be considered practical technicians! I cannot believe how many CNEs and MCSEs I have run into know NOTHING about either TCP/IP nor basic security concepts (let alone any scripting like Perl!). And you do not even have to be a high school graduate nor have any work experience to get them! At least a PE has a college degree, 4 FULL YEARS OF EXPERIENCE *AND* 3 REFERENCES!!!
The basic rule of the technical world is this:
E.g., 2,500 physicists graduate per year to 25,000 engineers per year to 250,000 IT jobs needed a year. Do you see a trend?
That is why the whole H1B Visa bullshit came about! You do *NOT* need calculus spewing engineers installing network switches! H1B is just a way for companies to strongarm immigrants into working cheap and replacing US engineers. The IEEE knows this and has tried to covey it to Congress. But big business wins! So instead of giving immigrants a real chance at being Americans with a green card and allowing them to change jobs and demand the same pay as Americans, they give them a Visa which allows big business to pay them shit and force them to work 20 years at the same crappy job!
This level of ignorance is universal. I hate Novell and Microsoft for extending it, and I hate the NSPE/BoPEs for locking us real computer engineers out of the PE profession by making us take tests outside our field! This has to end my friends!!!
-- Bryan J. Smith, E.I. (Engineering Intern)
ASIC Design Engineer
are you actually doing engineering work? (Score:1)
-the name "engineer"
-the practice
-recognition
The NAME --
I work in Quebec (Canada), and studied in Ontario. In Canada, you cannot call yourself an engineer, or even imply that you are one, without belonging to a PE association. The associations have inspectors and sue people on a regular basis because they advertise themselves as engineers without belonging to a PE association. The "Microsoft Certified Engineer" programm for example is named "MS Certified Technician" here, for that exact reason: the program doesn't lead to a degree that would let you be a PE. It always suprises me that in the US, technicians call themselves engineers. We're no better than they are of course, but i wouldn't call myself a nurse for example, because i am not.
The PRACTICE --
Everyone would like their bridges and buildings to be safe. And to make absolutely sure that they are, the law puts the responsibility on ONE person: the one who designed it (structurally, not architecturally). This is why people who sign plans for the building of a bridge must be engineers. There must two such signatures. If the contractor doesn't apply the plans exactly, of course they'll be responsible. But if the engineer is there and sees that the plan is not applied exactly, then HE is responsible. Even if the contractor, his boss, says it's too expensive to use that type of beams for example: you have to say no and then go above your boss and company, to the law. You represent the public. The PE associations will support you if you have to go to court because your boss fired you afterwards, because he can't.
You don't want the foreman to start making plans for a 5-lane bridge. You want someone who knows the deeper issues. The engineer might not be as good to actually build it, but he sure knows how it's supposed to hold through a tornado. This is why you HAVE to be a PE to sign stuff like that.
Now, if you're an EE, or CS engineer (you actually went through CS ENGINEERING in university, not just CS), it's less likely that your work can kill people (or maybe that's the purpose of your work!), so most employers don't really care about you being a PE, except for one point: if you're actually a PE, it takes a 1 minute phone call to check your badge # and name and see if you really are a PE, which then attests that you really do have that diploma and experience. My boss cares about that. Also, being a PE requires an going through an ethics and law exam (at least up here).
This is also about RECOGNITION. Your resumé looks better, i think, if you're a PE, even if you're not better than any other engineer who's not a PE. Here, you can't even say you're an EE if you're not a PE.... It sets you apart and attests that you went through a pretty though program and survived it.
I for one think that a bit more studying and a few hundred $ a year are very much worth it.
P.E. Certification (Score:1)
Taking the test now when all that information is fresh in your mind is an advantage.
Take the test, skip the class (Score:1)
As for the value of a PE. It's really not much unless you are working on construction type projects. There, they might want a PE to sign off on the wiring so they can have some assurances that it won't kill somebody. For Civil Engineers this is normal. For EE's though, it is not.
I have never seen a job rec that specified a PE, though though I'm sure they must exist. None of the EE's that I know, myself included, are PE's.
A real life example (Score:1)
I have a BSEE and so does my dad. His was
~1967, mine ~1993. He holds a PE, designs
things like hydoelectric power plants and
big transformers. I do not have my PE, and
design high speed electronics. I think we
both have similar resposnsiblilities, except
nobody dies when my stuff breaks.
Even so, I'm elligible to take the exam next
spring in Minnesota, so I will. I don't
think it will do me any good during the
next 10 years, but I don't want to re-learn
any calculus when I'm 50 either.
js
PE worth (Score:1)
If you want the PE someday, take the exam ASAP (Score:1)
GO FOR IT!? (Score:1)
Of course the PE really stands out when you're doing any kinda of 'For the Public' type of work...if you're looking to stick to Microprocessors, computers, etc. Probably won't help - but guess what IT WONT HURT!?
I'll tell you a story that an older PE told me while I was visiting his design firm...he said, "You see all these engineers out here in the 'bullpen' = openspace office....they're engineers; you see all those nice offices with closed doors, those are PE's".
The cost are cheap for students - take it now so that you don't forget all the junk and have to study it later! - wish I had!
David Simmons, EI
PE in Australia (Score:1)
If you were in australia the rules are similar but also different.
I think you can only call yourself an engineer if you are a member of IEAust [ieaust.org.au].
Additionally like other professions you have to do the equivalent of a "professional" year to move from a graduate engineer to being a consulting engineer. Last time I checked this involved keeping log books, aural exams, and a thesis.
I don't know that it's actually much unless you are a consultant, however in some states (Victoria?) this means that as a consultant your potential liability is limited by law !!
[Side-track]
Does anyone else think that all those "Insert your favorite Vendor Certified Practicer" courses are a waste ?
[/Side-track]
PE Exam (Score:1)
Re:it is a licence (Score:1)
To verify this, try going around and asking
your PhD professors of engineering how many of
them are licensed PEs.
And for electrical and/or computer engineering
it is more a rarity than common among professionals to have a PE.
For MOST things related to EE or CS, the PE
will be viewed in a similar light as an MSCE.
It is kinda nice to have, but doesn't tell you
very much about the quality of the job
candidate.
In addition, the PE test (the first phase of
certification) is almost exclusively based on
the core curriculum for Civil and Mechanical
Engineers. Yes there is an electrical engineering
section - and it is almost exclusively based
on things taught in the first intro EE course
that most civil and mechanical engineers are
forced to take.
If I were a graduating EE or CS major, I would
forget about the PE. As a mechanical or civil
engineer, I would probably do it.
Re:Depends on industry... (Score:1)
Take it (Score:1)
By the way this test isn't the PE test. It's the EIT test, before taking the PE you'll have to work is a position SUPERVISED BY A PE for at least 4 years.
I took the EIT and am glad I did. I'm eligible to take the PE and so far I haven't.
The EIT is heavily weighted towards book knowledge you learn in school -- take it while it's fresh. The PE has some of this but also more real world stuff (for example the EE part has a lot on the National Electric Code which you won't see on the EIT).
The reason I haven't taken the PE is that is heavily weighted toward Power Electrical Engineers -- designing building electrical distribution systems, fire alarms, etc... Unless they've added significantly more on computers (or add it as a speciality) I won't be taking it.
My advice is to take the EIT now so you don't limit your options. The PE you can decide about later.
Kevin
Re:PE in Australia (Score:1)
If you are a member of IEAust and have relevant experience and qulifications, then you can become a CPE (Certified Practising Engineer).
That has two problems:
1) The way they structure the CPE program fits real badly to what a engineer does in IT.
2) Noone in the industry cares that you are a PE or not let alone a CPE or not.
That was why I left IEAust, I'm not a civil engineer so they didn't cater for me.
Oh and vendor-based qualifications are easily worth more, you will get paid better even if the qualifications are meaningless.
Sad state of affairs, but that seems to be the way it is.
Re:IEEE (Score:1)
Take the EIT! (Score:1)
Personally, I am a PE... but I am in the construction/power industry, so it is required (or, at least was before I left the US). It is something that is easy enough to get (after having passed the EIT, and gotten the relevant professional experience) if you are in an appropriate field.
If you get the EIT now, it keeps doors open for the next few years, in case things (in the high-tech arena) change drastically, or if you decide you want to change fields.
Good luck, and have a few beers before the test... it can't hurt!
Re:Hell No! (Score:2)
I was weak in the cross-discipline engineering stuff anyway (because I knew that I would never use it). The test had absolutely no relevance for my career, so I didn't waste the money."
Interesting. Both in my own work, and in the people I have interviewed/rejected/hired, it is exactly the the cross-discipline lessons (both classroom and work experience) that have helped me the most. I haven't done any PL/I programming or solved any problems in discrete mathematics for a long time (since school, actually). But learning how to break down, analyze, and solve complex problems in mechanical dynamics helps me every day in network troubleshooting. Similarly, climbing to the top of a 300' (~100m) chimney to test a sensor didn't seem particularly relevant to anything - except now I find myself having to explain to young'ens without that experience why reliability in a network is important. So I would be careful about focusing too closely on the surface of your chosen field of work. The surface, the field, even the type of work you do changes over time. Deep lessons about how the world works remain valid.
sPh